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Re: [orthodox-synod] "Secrecy" [was:Commissions in Soviet culture]

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  • michael nikitin
    This isn t *just* any old Synod meeting. In ROCOR Synod meetings it is with our ROCOR bishops. These meetings are with the MP who we don t trust because of
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
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      This isn't *just* any old Synod meeting. In ROCOR Synod meetings it is with our
      ROCOR bishops. These meetings are with the MP who we don't
      trust because of their actions. The meetings will have repurcussions that will
      change ROCOR, administratively and spiritually.

      Let the meetings be secret. This will speed up the process of union. It's
      going to happen one way or another. Let's face the facts. Then we can
      concelebrate in those big beautiful Cathedrals with golden domes that many
      of us who want union dreamed of.

      Michael N

      "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:

      > What about all the nonpublic commissions (including scores of
      ecclesiastical
      > ones) in the 19th century? I hope we are not going to accuse
      Emperor
      Nicholas
      > I of communist tactics.

      JRS: For that matter, the meetings of the Holy Synod were also
      private.

      In the Church Abroad, there was one period when the Synod meetings
      were
      held openly in the Synodal cathedral, under Metropolitan Anastassy.
      Laity were permitted to attend, though of course they had to be
      respectful and silent.

      Later, at least from the time of Metropolitan Philaret, the Synod
      meetings were no longer public, and no one except the actual Synod
      members were admitted.

      The accounts of the proceedings were always skimpy and minimal, and
      from what Vl. Nikon and Vl. Seraphim told me, much was discussed by
      the
      bishops that was never indicated, in any way, in the record.

      It seems odd that only now, when it suits certain people, we are
      beginning to hear these accusations of "secrecy"!

      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw



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    • frvboldewskul@aol.com
      In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... Bog Blagoslovit, I made no proposal. I did, however, take exception to your post suggesting or
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
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        In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
        vladimir.kozyreff@... writes:

        > Dear Father Victor, bless.
        >
        > I suggest there is a fallacy in your proposal.
        >
        >

        Bog Blagoslovit,
        I made no proposal. I did, however, take exception to your post suggesting or
        implying that our Synod is acting like the communists. Note that I find this
        to be an extremely insulting comparison to make to a Church whose members and
        families suffered immensely at the hands of the Soviets. Please be more
        careful in what you write as a "friend of the Russian Church Abroad."
        In Christ,
        Priest Victor Boldewskul


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • frvboldewskul@aol.com
        In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gene703@yahoo.com ... And once the Commissions work is completed, and if approved by both
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
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          In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gene703@...
          writes:

          > 5 years ago meetings of the Holy Synod were truly nobody's business,
          > besides the proceedings were later printed in in Orthodox Life anyway.

          And once the Commissions' work is completed, and if approved by both
          Churches, they will later be printed in Orthodox Life, I am sure.

          In Christ,
          Priest Victor Boldewskul

          p.s. The current question of reconciliation of the two parts of the Russian
          Church has been, in my view, the most open and public process in the history of
          the Russian Church. Never has so much official information been put out so
          fast in the history of the Russian Church. In large part, this is due to modern
          technology, in part, the open and free nature of our Church.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Paul O. BARTLETT
          ... Looking at the matter as a (now) outsider, it seems to me that, yes, some kind of union (call it reconciliation, if you prefer) with MP is going to take
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
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            On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, michael nikitin wrote:

            > [...] This will speed up the process of union. It's
            > going to happen one way or another. Let's face the facts. Then we can
            > concelebrate in those big beautiful Cathedrals with golden domes that many
            > of us who want union dreamed of.

            Looking at the matter as a (now) outsider, it seems to me that,
            yes, some kind of union (call it reconciliation, if you prefer) with
            MP is going to take place, sooner or later. (I would be hard pressed
            to come up with a time, but I suspect within five years.) The main
            question, as I see it, is, What is going to happen? To be honest, I
            doubt that there will be 100% acceptance. Some in ROCOR, both clergy
            and laity alike, will not go along.

            What, then, will they do? Form their own jurisdiction in the
            manner of HOCNA (although of different initial motivation)? I would
            not be surprised if at least a few would try to do so. If so, those in
            the reconciled MP/ROCOR would very probably consider them schismatic.
            (But are there not already some within the MP who consider ROCOR to be
            schismatic as it is?) Some might go to already existing jurisdictions
            if they (i.e., those who might make the move) do not have too big a
            hangup on Russianness, as if Orthodox Christianity is to be equated
            with Russianness. The Greek Old Calendarists come to mind.

            In any case, I seem some rough sledding ahead for at least some
            people who are going to have to make some decisions they find painful.

            --
            Paul Bartlett
            bartlett "at" smart "dot" net
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          • vkozyreff
            Dear Father Victor, bless. You write: I made no proposal . This must be a misunderstanding. I think you did make a proposal, according to the definition of
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
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              Dear Father Victor, bless.

              You write: "I made no proposal".

              This must be a misunderstanding. I think you did make a proposal,
              according to the definition of this word. A proposal is something
              that is put forward for consideration: proposition, submission,
              suggestion. You put forward for consideration the suggestion that
              present secrecy in the negotiations with the MP was all right because
              it had been practiced under Nicholas I. I suggest that this is a
              fallacy.

              Then you write that you "take exception to your post suggesting or
              implying that our Synod is acting like the communists".

              If the communists act in secrecy and present the resolution of a
              secret committee as coming from a much wider instance, anybody who
              does a similar thing acts like the communists from this angle. If
              anything suggests that the Synod is acting like the communists, it is
              the facts that make this suggestion, not the reporter of those facts.

              Moreover, in certain leading ROCOR circles, Soviet culture is now
              viewed as something that you can live or unite with. Some priest on
              this forum wrote that the sin should not be pushed out of the Church,
              implying that the Church could live with sergianism in her bosom, and
              that opposing views generate schism.

              You write: "Note that I find this to be an extremely insulting
              comparison to make to a Church whose members and families suffered
              immensely at the hands of the Soviets".

              I am part of that Church; my family gave fighters and officers to the
              White Army and was massacred by the Reds. My father escaped in tragic
              circumstances with God's help, when he was a 14 years old orphan. I
              was born in exile, deprived of the land of my ancestors. In the
              exercise of my profession, I have seen for 15 years the appalling
              devastation caused by communism in Russia. My only consolation has
              been the ROCOR and her stand for the Truth. You may understand what I
              suffer when I see my Church having secret agreements with a Soviet
              structure and ignoring warnings coming from her most loving clergy
              and faithful.

              You write: "Please be more careful in what you write as a "friend of
              the Russian Church Abroad."

              What could be friendlier to the ROCOR than saying: "Let us keep faith
              in ROCOR, she does not need any legitimisation from the MP, because
              she is legitimate, let us be faithful to her traditional path"?

              Please pardon me if I have offended anyone.


              In God,

              Vladimir Kozyreff



              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:
              > In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
              > vladimir.kozyreff@s... writes:
              >
              > > Dear Father Victor, bless.
              > >
              > > I suggest there is a fallacy in your proposal.
              > >
              > >
              >
              > Bog Blagoslovit,
              > I made no proposal. I did, however, take exception to your post
              suggesting or
              > implying that our Synod is acting like the communists. Note that I
              find this
              > to be an extremely insulting comparison to make to a Church whose
              members and
              > families suffered immensely at the hands of the Soviets. Please be
              more
              > careful in what you write as a "friend of the Russian Church
              Abroad."
              > In Christ,
              > Priest Victor Boldewskul
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • frvboldewskul@aol.com
              In a message dated 8/4/04 5:22:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... This is the problem. I made no comment about current talks with the MP in that post. I was
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
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                In a message dated 8/4/04 5:22:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                vladimir.kozyreff@... writes:

                > You put forward for consideration the suggestion that
                > present secrecy in the negotiations with the MP was all right because
                > it had been practiced under Nicholas I. I suggest that this is a
                > fallacy.
                >
                >

                This is the problem. I made no comment about current talks with the MP in
                that post. I was pointing out an error in your post suggesting that our current
                commission are rooted in communism. I simply pointed that from a historical
                point of view, this is problematic. Commissions are rooted in the Synodal period.
                I made no comment about whether this is good or bad. I have my own view on
                commissions, and I have not shared them in public. Coming to understand the
                past does not necessarily mean justification or rejection of an event in the
                present.

                In the Synodal period (for better or for worse), commissions were set up to
                investigate incorrupt relics, education/seminary reforrm/ soslovia reform,
                liturgical reform, financial crisis etc...and often few knew what was going on or
                that such commissions exist. Now, one does not have to accept this a a
                favorable model, especially as some noted the advancement of education and
                technology, but it does show that commissions in Church life are rooted in the Synodal
                period (that's 1700 until 1918). Whether the Soviets used them as you note is
                irrelevant for a Church historian.

                In Christ,
                Priest Victor Boldewskul


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • michael nikitin
                This official information is always put out by the MP first on their site. That is where the real information is to be found on what transpired. Maybe they re
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
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                  This official information is always put out by the MP first on their
                  site. That is where the real information is to be found on what transpired.

                  Maybe they're on the new calendar?

                  Michael N

                  frvboldewskul@... wrote:
                  In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gene703@...
                  writes:

                  > 5 years ago meetings of the Holy Synod were truly nobody's business,
                  > besides the proceedings were later printed in in Orthodox Life anyway.

                  And once the Commissions' work is completed, and if approved by both
                  Churches, they will later be printed in Orthodox Life, I am sure.

                  In Christ,
                  Priest Victor Boldewskul

                  p.s. The current question of reconciliation of the two parts of the Russian
                  Church has been, in my view, the most open and public process in the history of
                  the Russian Church. Never has so much official information been put out so
                  fast in the history of the Russian Church. In large part, this is due to modern
                  technology, in part, the open and free nature of our Church.


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                • Fr. John R. Shaw
                  ... transpired. ... JRS: If by they you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates given
                  Message 8 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
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                    Michael Nikitin wrote:

                    > This official information is always put out by the MP first on their
                    > site. That is where the real information is to be found on what
                    transpired.
                    >
                    > Maybe they're on the new calendar?

                    JRS: If by "they" you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the
                    Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates given
                    for various church holidays.

                    Also note that the Russian word "glasnost'" has no "T" in the middle:
                    it comes from "glas" or "golos", meaning "voice".

                    In Christ
                    Fr. John R. Shaw
                  • vkozyreff
                    Dear Father John, bless. I believe that intolerance to misspelling of words is a noble thing and should be encouraged, particularly with regards to the
                    Message 9 of 17 , Aug 5, 2004
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                      Dear Father John, bless.

                      I believe that intolerance to misspelling of words is a noble thing
                      and should be encouraged, particularly with regards to the beautiful
                      Russian language.

                      This however should not divert us from maintaining our vigilance
                      against unorthodox concepts in particular those by which conciliarity
                      is absent when capital decisions about the Church are being taken.
                      The MP does not enjoy universal regognition, among clergy and
                      faithful, as being even part of the Church. This may not be ignored,
                      even at the "highest level".

                      This, after all, was the subject of this discussion.

                      Orthography relates to the times, orthodoxy relates to eternity. The
                      MP calendar may be officially the old one, but its agenda might be
                      worse than the new calendar. When Michael jokingly mentions the new
                      calendar, he may be closer to the truth than those who check the
                      dates.

                      In God,

                      Vladimir Kozyreff

                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                      <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                      > Michael Nikitin wrote:
                      >
                      > > This official information is always put out by the MP first on
                      their
                      > > site. That is where the real information is to be found on what
                      > transpired.
                      > >
                      > > Maybe they're on the new calendar?
                      >
                      > JRS: If by "they" you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the
                      > Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates
                      given
                      > for various church holidays.
                      >
                      > Also note that the Russian word "glasnost'" has no "T" in the
                      middle:
                      > it comes from "glas" or "golos", meaning "voice".
                      >
                      > In Christ
                      > Fr. John R. Shaw
                    • michael nikitin
                      Fr.John is quick to deflect from the main point. One can read the MP s website and get current information on what transpired in those meetings that our
                      Message 10 of 17 , Aug 6, 2004
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                        Fr.John is quick to deflect from the main point.

                        One can read the MP's website and get current information on what
                        transpired in those meetings that our ROCOR(L) is afraid to tell us
                        on their website.

                        Michael N


                        Michael Nikitin wrote:

                        > This official information is always put out by the MP first on their
                        > site. That is where the real information is to be found on what
                        transpired.
                        >
                        > Maybe they're on the new calendar?

                        JRS: If by "they" you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the
                        Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates given
                        for various church holidays.

                        Also note that the Russian word "glasnost'" has no "T" in the middle:
                        it comes from "glas" or "golos", meaning "voice".

                        In Christ
                        Fr. John R. Shaw



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