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Re: Commissions in Soviet culture

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  • vkozyreff
    Dear Father Victor, bless. I suggest there is a fallacy in your proposal. The question is not what HM Nicholas I or Colonel Protasov did. Neither the first nor
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
      Dear Father Victor, bless.

      I suggest there is a fallacy in your proposal.

      The question is not what HM Nicholas I or Colonel Protasov did.
      Neither the first nor the second is a saint. The question is: do we,
      orthodox, consider that one can defend orthodoxy by secrecy, in other
      words by violating sobornost, which is the essence of the Church?

      If you refer to the tradition, then protest, as hierarchs of those
      days. Be on the side of the Church. Count Protasov's designs aroused
      strong opposition among Church hierarchs. When Protasov transmitted
      proposals to incorporate medicine and agronomy into the curriculum,
      the Synod brusquely rejected those ideas unsuitable on practical and
      pedagogical grounds.

      Secrecy is excluding the faithful from the decision-making process
      and allow it to be taken by in some kind of "highest level" (strange
      canonical term), supposed to make decison and then notify the people.
      Is this orthodox?

      Do you support this process?

      Would saints?

      Would St Mark of Ephese?

      Would Christ?

      In God,

      Vladimir Kozyreff

      Two wrongs make a right (logical fallacy)

      Two wrongs make a right is a logical fallacy that occurs when it is
      assumed that if one wrong is committed, another second wrong will
      cancel it out. Like many fallacies, it typically appears as the
      hidden major premise in an enthymeme.

      Often it can be a fallacy of distraction or an attempt to change the
      issue.

      For example:

      Speaker A: President Williams lied in his testimony to Congress. He
      should not do that.
      Speaker B: But you're ignoring the fact that President Johnson lied
      in his Congressional testimony!
      If President Johnson lied in his Congressional testimony, that does
      not make it acceptable or OK for President Williams to do so as well.
      In this usage it may also be similar to the bandwagon fallacy (as
      an "appeal to popularity"); both are red herring fallacies.

      http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Two_wrongs_make_a_right_%
      28logical_fallacy%29


      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:
      > In a message dated 8/3/04 5:50:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
      > vladimir.kozyreff@s... writes:
      >
      > > When looking backwards at the way the persecution of the Church
      was
      > > organised right from the start of the Soviet regime, one is
      struck by
      > > the use of committees and secrecy, which was a key feature of the
      > > methods used. In fact, it became an element of Soviet culture.
      > >
      > >
      >
      > What about all the nonpublic commissions (including scores of
      ecclesiastical
      > ones) in the 19th century? I hope we are not going to accuse
      Emperor Nicholas
      > I of communist tactics.
      >
      > Priest Victor Boldewskul
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • VJB
      Vladimir! Is use of committees and secrecy an exclusive feature of the Soviet regime? Is that what you are saying? viatcheslav ... From: vkozyreff To:
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
        Vladimir!

        Is "use of committees and secrecy" an exclusive feature of the Soviet regime? Is that what you are saying?

        viatcheslav
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: vkozyreff
        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 3:33 AM
        Subject: [orthodox-synod] Commissions in Soviet culture


        Dear List,

        When looking backwards at the way the persecution of the Church was
        organised right from the start of the Soviet regime, one is struck by
        the use of committees and secrecy, which was a key feature of the
        methods used. In fact, it became an element of Soviet culture.

        A good example is the letter from Lenin to Molotov dated 19 March
        1922, about the 'Black Hundreds' Anti-Clerical Campaign.

        The full text is below, I give here two excerpts that are
        particularly eloquent:

        "Please make no copies for any reason. Each member of the Politburo
        (incl. Comrade Kalinin) should comment directly on the document...

        the participation of Comrade Trotsky and Comrade Kalinin being
        required, without giving any publicity to this commission, with the
        purpose that the subordination to it of all operations would be
        provided for and carried out not in the name of the commission but as
        an all-soviet and all-party order".

        In God,

        Vladimir Kozyreff

        Complete text:

        Copy To Comrade Molotov

        Top Secret For members of the Politburo

        Please make no copies for any reason. Each member of the Politburo
        (incl. Comrade Kalinin) should comment directly on the document.
        Lenin.

        In regard to the occurrence at Shuia, which is already slated for
        discussion by the Polituro, it is necessary right now to make a firm
        decision about a general plan of action in the present course.
        Because I doubt that I will be able to attend the Politburo meeting
        on March 20th in person, I will set down my thoughts in writing.

        The event at Shuia should be connected with the announcement that the
        Russian News Agency [ROST] recently sent to the newspapers but that
        was not for publication, namely, the announcement that the Black
        Hundreds in Petrograd [Piter] were preparing to defy the decree on
        the removal of property of value from the churches.

        If this fact is compared with what the papers report about the
        attitude of the clergy to the decree on the removal of church
        property in addition to what we know about th e illegal proclamation
        of Patriarch Tikhon, then it becomes perfectly clear that the Black
        Hundreds clergy, headed by its leader, with full deliberation is
        carrying out a plan at this very moment to destroy us decisively.

        It is obvious that the most influential group of the Black Hundreds
        clergy conceived this plan in secret meetings and that it was
        accepted with sufficient resolution. The events in Shuia is only one
        manifestation and actualization of this general plan.

        I think that here our opponent is making a huge strategic error by
        attempting to draw us into a decisive struggle now when it is
        especially hopeless and especially disadvantageous to him. For us, on
        the other hand, precisely at the present moment we are presented with
        an exceptionally favorable, even unique, opportunity when we can in
        99 out of 100 chances utterly defeat our enemy with complete success
        and guarantee for ourselves the position we require for decades.

        Now and only now, when people are bei ng eaten in famine-stricken
        areas, and hundreds, if not thousands, of corpses lie on the roads,
        we can (and therefore must) pursue the removal of church property
        with the most frenzied and ruthless energy and not hesitate to put
        down the least opposition. N ow and only now, the vast majority of
        peasants will either be on our side, or at least will not be in a
        position to support to any decisive degree this handful of Black
        Hundreds clergy and reactionary urban petty bourgeoisie, who are
        willing and able to attempt to oppose this Soviet decree with a
        policy of force.

        We must pursue the removal of church property by any means necessary
        in order to secure for ourselves a fund of several hundred million
        gold rubles (do not forget the immense wealth of some monasteries and
        lauras).

        Without this fund any government work in general, any economic build-
        up in particular, and any upholding of soviet principles in Genoa
        especially is completely unthinkable. In order to get our hands on
        this fund of several hundred million gold rubles (and perhaps even
        several hundred billion), we must do whatever is necessary. But to do
        this successfully is possible only now.

        All considerations indicate that later on we will fail to do this,
        for no other time, besides that of desperate famine, will give us
        such a mood among the general mass of peasants that would ensure us
        the sympathy of this group, or, at least, would ensure us the
        neutralization of this group in the sense that victory in the
        struggle for the removal of chur ch property unquestionably and
        completely will be on our side.

        One clever writer on statecraft correctly said that if it is
        necessary for the realization of a well-known political goal to
        perform a series of brutal actions then it is necessary to do them in
        the most energetic manner and in the shortest time, because masses of
        people will not tolerate the protracted use of brutality.

        This observation in particular is further strengthened because harsh
        measures against a reactionary clergy will be politically
        impractical, possibly even extremely dangerous as a result of the
        international situation in which we in Russia, in all probability,
        will find ourselves, or may find ourselves, after Genoa. Now victory
        over the reactionary clergy is assured us completely.

        In addition, it will be more difficult for the major part of our
        foreign adversaries among the Russian emigres abroad, i.e., the
        Socialist-Revolutionaries and the Milyukovites [Left Wing Cadet
        Party], to fight against us if we, precisely at this time, precisely
        in connection with the famine, suppress the reactionary clergy with
        utmost haste and ruthlessness.

        Therefore, I come to the indisputable conclusion that we must
        precisely now smash the Black Hundreds clergy most decisively and
        ruthlessly and put down all resistance with such brutality that they
        will not forget it for several decades.

        The campaign itself for carrying out this plan I envision in the
        following manner:

        Only Comrade Kalinin should appear officially in regard to any
        measures taken--never and under no circumstance must Comrade Trotsky
        write anything for the press or in any other way appear before the
        public.

        The telegram already issued in the name of the Politburo about the
        temporary suspension of removals must not be rescinded. It is useful
        for us because it gives our adversary the impression that we are
        vacillating, that he has succeeded in confus ing us (our adversary,
        of course, will quickly find out about this secret telegram precisely
        because it is secret).

        Send to Shuia one of the most energetic, clear-headed, and capable
        members of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee [VTsIK] or
        some other representative of the central government (one is better
        than several), giving him verbal instruc tions through one of the
        members of the Politburo. The instructions must come down to this,
        that in Shuia he must arrest more if possible but not less than
        several dozen representatives of the local clergy, the local petty
        bourgeoisie, and the local bourgeoisie on sus picion of direct or
        indirect participation in the forcible resistance to the decree of
        the VTsIK on the removal of property of value from churches.

        Immediately upon completion of this task, he must return to Moscow
        and personally deliver a report to the full session of t he Politburo
        or to two specially authorized members of the Politburo. On the basis
        of this report, the Politburo will give a detailed directive to the
        judicial authorities, also verbal, that the trial of the
        insurrectionists from Shuia, for opposing aid to the starving, should
        be carried out in utmost haste and should end not other than with the
        shooting of the very largest number of the most influential and
        dangerous of the Black Hundreds in Shuia, and, if possible, not only
        in this city but even in Moscow and several other ecclesiastical
        centers.

        I think that it is advisable for us not to touch Patriarch Tikhon
        himself, even though he undoubtedly headed this whole revolt of slave-
        holders. Concerning him, the State Political Administration [GPU]
        must be given a secret directive that precisely at this time all
        communications of this personage must be monitored and their contents
        disclosed in all possible accuracy and detail. Require Dzerzhinsky
        and Unshlikht personally to report to the Politburo about this
        weekly.

        At the party congress arrange a secret meeting of all or almost all
        delegates to discuss this matter jointly with the chief workers of
        the GPU, the People's Commissariat of Justice [NKIu], and the
        Revolutionary Tribunal. At this meeting pa ss a secret resolution of
        the congress that the removal of property of value, especially from
        the very richest lauras, monasteries, and churches, must be carried
        out with ruthless resolution, leaving nothing in doubt, and in the
        very shortest time.

        The greater the n umber of representatives of the reactionary clergy
        and the reactionary bourgeoisie that we succeed in shooting on this
        occasion, the better because this 'audience' must precisely now be
        taught a lesson in such a way that they will not dare to think about
        any resis tance whatsoever for several decades.

        To attend to the quickest and most successful carrying out of these
        measures, there at the congress, i.e., at the secret meeting, appoint
        a special commission, the participation of Comrade Trotsky and
        Comrade Kalinin being required, without giving any publicity to this
        commission, with the purpose that the subordination to it of all
        operations would be provided for and carried out not in the name of
        the commission but as an all-soviet and all-party order. Appoint
        those who are especially responsible from among the best workers to
        carry out these measures in the wealthiest lauras, monasteries, and
        churches.

        Lenin.

        March 19, 1922.

        I request that Comrade Molotov attempt to circulate this letter to
        the members of the Politburo by evening today (not making copies) and
        ask them to return it to the secretary immediately after reading it,
        with a succinct note regarding whether each member of the Politburo
        agrees in principle or if the letter arouses any differences of
        opinion.

        Lenin.

        A note in the hand of Comrade Molotov:

        'Agreed. However, I propose to extend the campaign not to all
        gubernias and cities, but to those where indeed there are
        considerable possessions of value, accordingly concentrating the
        forces and attention of the party.'

        March 19. Molotov.'

        True copy: [illegible]

        The original has been transferred to the Lenin Institute.

        Etext from http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918p/lenimolo.html.






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      • Gene T
        5 years ago meetings of the Holy Synod were truly nobody s business, besides the proceedings were later printed in in Orthodox Life anyway. Things like
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
          5 years ago meetings of the Holy Synod were truly nobody's business, besides the proceedings were later printed in in Orthodox Life anyway. Things like personnel, financial issues and many others are not meant to be discussed by every lay member of the church, that's what Bishops are for. No one would argue with that.

          The "Secrecy" issue concerns one thing only. Process of ROCOR reconciliation with MP. Many Russian emigrants, especially these of 1917-23 and 1945 vintage know very well what ROCOR is all about and are perplexed to see such sudden 180% change. Many suspect foul play. Every major player on both sides has been accused of KGB membership and worse. Many remember that most Bishops were saying completely different things five years ago. Now they all look like some kind of Manchurian Candidates from the outside.

          In this horrendously poisoned atmosphere a little dose of glasnost would surely help alleviate a lot of suspicions. What could be so secret about these negotiations ? Profit sharing and money laundering on cigarettes and alcohol import quotas that ROCOR now will participate in together with MP ? Russian abortions fetal tissue cosmetics distribution deal in North America ? Multi-million Real Estate development projects in Holy Land ? Homosexual videos ? What are the "other vital, burning questions" Arch. Luka cryptically refers to in his report beside sergianism and ecumenism ?

          We, the ROCOR laity are not some 19 century illiterate Russian serfs. We are 21 century Americans, Wester Europeans, Latin Americans. We can read and write for goodness sake. I personally would like to be treated with respect accorded to your average American Catholic or Episcopalian layman by their Bishops. Namely being fully informed of all deliberation concerning my faith. We all read papers, you know what I am talking about.

          Last but not least ask yourself - What would Jesus do ?
          Have a blessed day Y'all

          Gene T




          "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:

          > What about all the nonpublic commissions (including scores of
          ecclesiastical
          > ones) in the 19th century? I hope we are not going to accuse
          Emperor
          Nicholas
          > I of communist tactics.

          JRS: For that matter, the meetings of the Holy Synod were also
          private.

          In the Church Abroad, there was one period when the Synod meetings
          were
          held openly in the Synodal cathedral, under Metropolitan Anastassy.
          Laity were permitted to attend, though of course they had to be
          respectful and silent.

          Later, at least from the time of Metropolitan Philaret, the Synod
          meetings were no longer public, and no one except the actual Synod
          members were admitted.

          The accounts of the proceedings were always skimpy and minimal, and
          from what Vl. Nikon and Vl. Seraphim told me, much was discussed by
          the
          bishops that was never indicated, in any way, in the record.

          It seems odd that only now, when it suits certain people, we are
          beginning to hear these accusations of "secrecy"!

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw








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        • vkozyreff
          Dear father John, bless. You write: It seems odd that only now, when it suits certain people, we are beginning to hear these accusations of secrecy ! It is
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
            Dear father John, bless.

            You write: "It seems odd that only now, when it suits certain
            people, we are beginning to hear these accusations of "secrecy"!

            It is not odd. These are not accusations but observations about a
            deliberate and proclaimed policy of secrecy, which suits certain
            people. We are told in an authoritarian way, that there is an
            agreement between the ROCOR hierarchy and the MP to act in secrecy.
            Reporting that fact is not yet an accusation, but you are right, the
            temptation is there.

            The fact that laity wants to be associated with capital decisions of
            the Church is orthodox, traditional, legitimate and desirable.

            The fact that the tradition has been interrupted after being revived
            for short periods is no argument to say that it should be abandoned
            for ever. Sobornost is part of orthodoxy.

            The fact that the will of the people to participate is now being
            expressed cannot be criticised under the false pretext that it was
            not expressed a while ago. The more the faithful participate in the
            life of the Church, the better.

            The Church is not made exclusively of those who share your views
            about the union with the MP. The Church is made of all the orthodox
            faithful, with the clergy and the hierarchy. One cannot deliberately
            exclude an essential part of the Church from capital decisions on
            the basis of their opposition to the union with the MP before it has
            repented.

            If the orthodox people are getting involved, maybe this is the will
            of God, and maybe we should accept this by humility.

            You wonder why the people want to take part now, while they did not
            before. This is a sign of a reality that you once eloquently
            mentioned: times have changed.

            Times have changed because a sizeable part of hierarchs and priests
            have "changed their minds", and still claim that they are in
            agreement with the Church, in spite of the Church not changing hers.

            Times have changed because the Church is at a crossroad and must
            exert her discernment about the formidable deceit of the MP
            allegedly being the Church without repenting.

            Times have changed because much of the fervour that characterised
            our hierarchy of the first years seems to have faded away.

            Times have changed because the ROCOR is now looking for a legitimacy
            from the MP, and her hierarchs have lost faith in their Church.

            Times have changed because clergy in good standing do not know any
            longer what sergianism and ecumenism are about.

            If times have changed, why being surprised at the fact that people
            change as a consequence?

            May God unite us all in his truth. I beg your prayers.

            In God,

            Vladimir Kozyreff



            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
            <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
            > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:
            >
            > > What about all the nonpublic commissions (including scores of
            > ecclesiastical
            > > ones) in the 19th century? I hope we are not going to accuse
            > Emperor
            > Nicholas
            > > I of communist tactics.
            >
            > JRS: For that matter, the meetings of the Holy Synod were also
            > private.
            >
            > In the Church Abroad, there was one period when the Synod meetings
            > were
            > held openly in the Synodal cathedral, under Metropolitan
            Anastassy.
            > Laity were permitted to attend, though of course they had to be
            > respectful and silent.
            >
            > Later, at least from the time of Metropolitan Philaret, the Synod
            > meetings were no longer public, and no one except the actual Synod
            > members were admitted.
            >
            > The accounts of the proceedings were always skimpy and minimal,
            and
            > from what Vl. Nikon and Vl. Seraphim told me, much was discussed
            by
            > the
            > bishops that was never indicated, in any way, in the record.
            >
            > It seems odd that only now, when it suits certain people, we are
            > beginning to hear these accusations of "secrecy"!
            >
            > In Christ
            > Fr. John R. Shaw
          • michael nikitin
            This isn t *just* any old Synod meeting. In ROCOR Synod meetings it is with our ROCOR bishops. These meetings are with the MP who we don t trust because of
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
              This isn't *just* any old Synod meeting. In ROCOR Synod meetings it is with our
              ROCOR bishops. These meetings are with the MP who we don't
              trust because of their actions. The meetings will have repurcussions that will
              change ROCOR, administratively and spiritually.

              Let the meetings be secret. This will speed up the process of union. It's
              going to happen one way or another. Let's face the facts. Then we can
              concelebrate in those big beautiful Cathedrals with golden domes that many
              of us who want union dreamed of.

              Michael N

              "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:

              > What about all the nonpublic commissions (including scores of
              ecclesiastical
              > ones) in the 19th century? I hope we are not going to accuse
              Emperor
              Nicholas
              > I of communist tactics.

              JRS: For that matter, the meetings of the Holy Synod were also
              private.

              In the Church Abroad, there was one period when the Synod meetings
              were
              held openly in the Synodal cathedral, under Metropolitan Anastassy.
              Laity were permitted to attend, though of course they had to be
              respectful and silent.

              Later, at least from the time of Metropolitan Philaret, the Synod
              meetings were no longer public, and no one except the actual Synod
              members were admitted.

              The accounts of the proceedings were always skimpy and minimal, and
              from what Vl. Nikon and Vl. Seraphim told me, much was discussed by
              the
              bishops that was never indicated, in any way, in the record.

              It seems odd that only now, when it suits certain people, we are
              beginning to hear these accusations of "secrecy"!

              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw



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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • frvboldewskul@aol.com
              In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... Bog Blagoslovit, I made no proposal. I did, however, take exception to your post suggesting or
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
                In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                vladimir.kozyreff@... writes:

                > Dear Father Victor, bless.
                >
                > I suggest there is a fallacy in your proposal.
                >
                >

                Bog Blagoslovit,
                I made no proposal. I did, however, take exception to your post suggesting or
                implying that our Synod is acting like the communists. Note that I find this
                to be an extremely insulting comparison to make to a Church whose members and
                families suffered immensely at the hands of the Soviets. Please be more
                careful in what you write as a "friend of the Russian Church Abroad."
                In Christ,
                Priest Victor Boldewskul


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • frvboldewskul@aol.com
                In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gene703@yahoo.com ... And once the Commissions work is completed, and if approved by both
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
                  In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gene703@...
                  writes:

                  > 5 years ago meetings of the Holy Synod were truly nobody's business,
                  > besides the proceedings were later printed in in Orthodox Life anyway.

                  And once the Commissions' work is completed, and if approved by both
                  Churches, they will later be printed in Orthodox Life, I am sure.

                  In Christ,
                  Priest Victor Boldewskul

                  p.s. The current question of reconciliation of the two parts of the Russian
                  Church has been, in my view, the most open and public process in the history of
                  the Russian Church. Never has so much official information been put out so
                  fast in the history of the Russian Church. In large part, this is due to modern
                  technology, in part, the open and free nature of our Church.


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Paul O. BARTLETT
                  ... Looking at the matter as a (now) outsider, it seems to me that, yes, some kind of union (call it reconciliation, if you prefer) with MP is going to take
                  Message 8 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
                    On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, michael nikitin wrote:

                    > [...] This will speed up the process of union. It's
                    > going to happen one way or another. Let's face the facts. Then we can
                    > concelebrate in those big beautiful Cathedrals with golden domes that many
                    > of us who want union dreamed of.

                    Looking at the matter as a (now) outsider, it seems to me that,
                    yes, some kind of union (call it reconciliation, if you prefer) with
                    MP is going to take place, sooner or later. (I would be hard pressed
                    to come up with a time, but I suspect within five years.) The main
                    question, as I see it, is, What is going to happen? To be honest, I
                    doubt that there will be 100% acceptance. Some in ROCOR, both clergy
                    and laity alike, will not go along.

                    What, then, will they do? Form their own jurisdiction in the
                    manner of HOCNA (although of different initial motivation)? I would
                    not be surprised if at least a few would try to do so. If so, those in
                    the reconciled MP/ROCOR would very probably consider them schismatic.
                    (But are there not already some within the MP who consider ROCOR to be
                    schismatic as it is?) Some might go to already existing jurisdictions
                    if they (i.e., those who might make the move) do not have too big a
                    hangup on Russianness, as if Orthodox Christianity is to be equated
                    with Russianness. The Greek Old Calendarists come to mind.

                    In any case, I seem some rough sledding ahead for at least some
                    people who are going to have to make some decisions they find painful.

                    --
                    Paul Bartlett
                    bartlett "at" smart "dot" net
                    PGP key info in message headers
                  • vkozyreff
                    Dear Father Victor, bless. You write: I made no proposal . This must be a misunderstanding. I think you did make a proposal, according to the definition of
                    Message 9 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
                      Dear Father Victor, bless.

                      You write: "I made no proposal".

                      This must be a misunderstanding. I think you did make a proposal,
                      according to the definition of this word. A proposal is something
                      that is put forward for consideration: proposition, submission,
                      suggestion. You put forward for consideration the suggestion that
                      present secrecy in the negotiations with the MP was all right because
                      it had been practiced under Nicholas I. I suggest that this is a
                      fallacy.

                      Then you write that you "take exception to your post suggesting or
                      implying that our Synod is acting like the communists".

                      If the communists act in secrecy and present the resolution of a
                      secret committee as coming from a much wider instance, anybody who
                      does a similar thing acts like the communists from this angle. If
                      anything suggests that the Synod is acting like the communists, it is
                      the facts that make this suggestion, not the reporter of those facts.

                      Moreover, in certain leading ROCOR circles, Soviet culture is now
                      viewed as something that you can live or unite with. Some priest on
                      this forum wrote that the sin should not be pushed out of the Church,
                      implying that the Church could live with sergianism in her bosom, and
                      that opposing views generate schism.

                      You write: "Note that I find this to be an extremely insulting
                      comparison to make to a Church whose members and families suffered
                      immensely at the hands of the Soviets".

                      I am part of that Church; my family gave fighters and officers to the
                      White Army and was massacred by the Reds. My father escaped in tragic
                      circumstances with God's help, when he was a 14 years old orphan. I
                      was born in exile, deprived of the land of my ancestors. In the
                      exercise of my profession, I have seen for 15 years the appalling
                      devastation caused by communism in Russia. My only consolation has
                      been the ROCOR and her stand for the Truth. You may understand what I
                      suffer when I see my Church having secret agreements with a Soviet
                      structure and ignoring warnings coming from her most loving clergy
                      and faithful.

                      You write: "Please be more careful in what you write as a "friend of
                      the Russian Church Abroad."

                      What could be friendlier to the ROCOR than saying: "Let us keep faith
                      in ROCOR, she does not need any legitimisation from the MP, because
                      she is legitimate, let us be faithful to her traditional path"?

                      Please pardon me if I have offended anyone.


                      In God,

                      Vladimir Kozyreff



                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:
                      > In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                      > vladimir.kozyreff@s... writes:
                      >
                      > > Dear Father Victor, bless.
                      > >
                      > > I suggest there is a fallacy in your proposal.
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > Bog Blagoslovit,
                      > I made no proposal. I did, however, take exception to your post
                      suggesting or
                      > implying that our Synod is acting like the communists. Note that I
                      find this
                      > to be an extremely insulting comparison to make to a Church whose
                      members and
                      > families suffered immensely at the hands of the Soviets. Please be
                      more
                      > careful in what you write as a "friend of the Russian Church
                      Abroad."
                      > In Christ,
                      > Priest Victor Boldewskul
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • frvboldewskul@aol.com
                      In a message dated 8/4/04 5:22:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... This is the problem. I made no comment about current talks with the MP in that post. I was
                      Message 10 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
                        In a message dated 8/4/04 5:22:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                        vladimir.kozyreff@... writes:

                        > You put forward for consideration the suggestion that
                        > present secrecy in the negotiations with the MP was all right because
                        > it had been practiced under Nicholas I. I suggest that this is a
                        > fallacy.
                        >
                        >

                        This is the problem. I made no comment about current talks with the MP in
                        that post. I was pointing out an error in your post suggesting that our current
                        commission are rooted in communism. I simply pointed that from a historical
                        point of view, this is problematic. Commissions are rooted in the Synodal period.
                        I made no comment about whether this is good or bad. I have my own view on
                        commissions, and I have not shared them in public. Coming to understand the
                        past does not necessarily mean justification or rejection of an event in the
                        present.

                        In the Synodal period (for better or for worse), commissions were set up to
                        investigate incorrupt relics, education/seminary reforrm/ soslovia reform,
                        liturgical reform, financial crisis etc...and often few knew what was going on or
                        that such commissions exist. Now, one does not have to accept this a a
                        favorable model, especially as some noted the advancement of education and
                        technology, but it does show that commissions in Church life are rooted in the Synodal
                        period (that's 1700 until 1918). Whether the Soviets used them as you note is
                        irrelevant for a Church historian.

                        In Christ,
                        Priest Victor Boldewskul


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • michael nikitin
                        This official information is always put out by the MP first on their site. That is where the real information is to be found on what transpired. Maybe they re
                        Message 11 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
                          This official information is always put out by the MP first on their
                          site. That is where the real information is to be found on what transpired.

                          Maybe they're on the new calendar?

                          Michael N

                          frvboldewskul@... wrote:
                          In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gene703@...
                          writes:

                          > 5 years ago meetings of the Holy Synod were truly nobody's business,
                          > besides the proceedings were later printed in in Orthodox Life anyway.

                          And once the Commissions' work is completed, and if approved by both
                          Churches, they will later be printed in Orthodox Life, I am sure.

                          In Christ,
                          Priest Victor Boldewskul

                          p.s. The current question of reconciliation of the two parts of the Russian
                          Church has been, in my view, the most open and public process in the history of
                          the Russian Church. Never has so much official information been put out so
                          fast in the history of the Russian Church. In large part, this is due to modern
                          technology, in part, the open and free nature of our Church.


                          ---------------------------------
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Fr. John R. Shaw
                          ... transpired. ... JRS: If by they you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates given
                          Message 12 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
                            Michael Nikitin wrote:

                            > This official information is always put out by the MP first on their
                            > site. That is where the real information is to be found on what
                            transpired.
                            >
                            > Maybe they're on the new calendar?

                            JRS: If by "they" you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the
                            Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates given
                            for various church holidays.

                            Also note that the Russian word "glasnost'" has no "T" in the middle:
                            it comes from "glas" or "golos", meaning "voice".

                            In Christ
                            Fr. John R. Shaw
                          • vkozyreff
                            Dear Father John, bless. I believe that intolerance to misspelling of words is a noble thing and should be encouraged, particularly with regards to the
                            Message 13 of 17 , Aug 5, 2004
                              Dear Father John, bless.

                              I believe that intolerance to misspelling of words is a noble thing
                              and should be encouraged, particularly with regards to the beautiful
                              Russian language.

                              This however should not divert us from maintaining our vigilance
                              against unorthodox concepts in particular those by which conciliarity
                              is absent when capital decisions about the Church are being taken.
                              The MP does not enjoy universal regognition, among clergy and
                              faithful, as being even part of the Church. This may not be ignored,
                              even at the "highest level".

                              This, after all, was the subject of this discussion.

                              Orthography relates to the times, orthodoxy relates to eternity. The
                              MP calendar may be officially the old one, but its agenda might be
                              worse than the new calendar. When Michael jokingly mentions the new
                              calendar, he may be closer to the truth than those who check the
                              dates.

                              In God,

                              Vladimir Kozyreff

                              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                              <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                              > Michael Nikitin wrote:
                              >
                              > > This official information is always put out by the MP first on
                              their
                              > > site. That is where the real information is to be found on what
                              > transpired.
                              > >
                              > > Maybe they're on the new calendar?
                              >
                              > JRS: If by "they" you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the
                              > Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates
                              given
                              > for various church holidays.
                              >
                              > Also note that the Russian word "glasnost'" has no "T" in the
                              middle:
                              > it comes from "glas" or "golos", meaning "voice".
                              >
                              > In Christ
                              > Fr. John R. Shaw
                            • michael nikitin
                              Fr.John is quick to deflect from the main point. One can read the MP s website and get current information on what transpired in those meetings that our
                              Message 14 of 17 , Aug 6, 2004
                                Fr.John is quick to deflect from the main point.

                                One can read the MP's website and get current information on what
                                transpired in those meetings that our ROCOR(L) is afraid to tell us
                                on their website.

                                Michael N


                                Michael Nikitin wrote:

                                > This official information is always put out by the MP first on their
                                > site. That is where the real information is to be found on what
                                transpired.
                                >
                                > Maybe they're on the new calendar?

                                JRS: If by "they" you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the
                                Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates given
                                for various church holidays.

                                Also note that the Russian word "glasnost'" has no "T" in the middle:
                                it comes from "glas" or "golos", meaning "voice".

                                In Christ
                                Fr. John R. Shaw



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