Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Commissions in Soviet culture

Expand Messages
  • vkozyreff
    Dear Father Victor, bless. I suggest there is a fallacy in your proposal. The question is not what HM Nicholas I or Colonel Protasov did. Neither the first nor
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Father Victor, bless.

      I suggest there is a fallacy in your proposal.

      The question is not what HM Nicholas I or Colonel Protasov did.
      Neither the first nor the second is a saint. The question is: do we,
      orthodox, consider that one can defend orthodoxy by secrecy, in other
      words by violating sobornost, which is the essence of the Church?

      If you refer to the tradition, then protest, as hierarchs of those
      days. Be on the side of the Church. Count Protasov's designs aroused
      strong opposition among Church hierarchs. When Protasov transmitted
      proposals to incorporate medicine and agronomy into the curriculum,
      the Synod brusquely rejected those ideas unsuitable on practical and
      pedagogical grounds.

      Secrecy is excluding the faithful from the decision-making process
      and allow it to be taken by in some kind of "highest level" (strange
      canonical term), supposed to make decison and then notify the people.
      Is this orthodox?

      Do you support this process?

      Would saints?

      Would St Mark of Ephese?

      Would Christ?

      In God,

      Vladimir Kozyreff

      Two wrongs make a right (logical fallacy)

      Two wrongs make a right is a logical fallacy that occurs when it is
      assumed that if one wrong is committed, another second wrong will
      cancel it out. Like many fallacies, it typically appears as the
      hidden major premise in an enthymeme.

      Often it can be a fallacy of distraction or an attempt to change the
      issue.

      For example:

      Speaker A: President Williams lied in his testimony to Congress. He
      should not do that.
      Speaker B: But you're ignoring the fact that President Johnson lied
      in his Congressional testimony!
      If President Johnson lied in his Congressional testimony, that does
      not make it acceptable or OK for President Williams to do so as well.
      In this usage it may also be similar to the bandwagon fallacy (as
      an "appeal to popularity"); both are red herring fallacies.

      http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Two_wrongs_make_a_right_%
      28logical_fallacy%29


      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:
      > In a message dated 8/3/04 5:50:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
      > vladimir.kozyreff@s... writes:
      >
      > > When looking backwards at the way the persecution of the Church
      was
      > > organised right from the start of the Soviet regime, one is
      struck by
      > > the use of committees and secrecy, which was a key feature of the
      > > methods used. In fact, it became an element of Soviet culture.
      > >
      > >
      >
      > What about all the nonpublic commissions (including scores of
      ecclesiastical
      > ones) in the 19th century? I hope we are not going to accuse
      Emperor Nicholas
      > I of communist tactics.
      >
      > Priest Victor Boldewskul
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • VJB
      Vladimir! Is use of committees and secrecy an exclusive feature of the Soviet regime? Is that what you are saying? viatcheslav ... From: vkozyreff To:
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        Vladimir!

        Is "use of committees and secrecy" an exclusive feature of the Soviet regime? Is that what you are saying?

        viatcheslav
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: vkozyreff
        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 3:33 AM
        Subject: [orthodox-synod] Commissions in Soviet culture


        Dear List,

        When looking backwards at the way the persecution of the Church was
        organised right from the start of the Soviet regime, one is struck by
        the use of committees and secrecy, which was a key feature of the
        methods used. In fact, it became an element of Soviet culture.

        A good example is the letter from Lenin to Molotov dated 19 March
        1922, about the 'Black Hundreds' Anti-Clerical Campaign.

        The full text is below, I give here two excerpts that are
        particularly eloquent:

        "Please make no copies for any reason. Each member of the Politburo
        (incl. Comrade Kalinin) should comment directly on the document...

        the participation of Comrade Trotsky and Comrade Kalinin being
        required, without giving any publicity to this commission, with the
        purpose that the subordination to it of all operations would be
        provided for and carried out not in the name of the commission but as
        an all-soviet and all-party order".

        In God,

        Vladimir Kozyreff

        Complete text:

        Copy To Comrade Molotov

        Top Secret For members of the Politburo

        Please make no copies for any reason. Each member of the Politburo
        (incl. Comrade Kalinin) should comment directly on the document.
        Lenin.

        In regard to the occurrence at Shuia, which is already slated for
        discussion by the Polituro, it is necessary right now to make a firm
        decision about a general plan of action in the present course.
        Because I doubt that I will be able to attend the Politburo meeting
        on March 20th in person, I will set down my thoughts in writing.

        The event at Shuia should be connected with the announcement that the
        Russian News Agency [ROST] recently sent to the newspapers but that
        was not for publication, namely, the announcement that the Black
        Hundreds in Petrograd [Piter] were preparing to defy the decree on
        the removal of property of value from the churches.

        If this fact is compared with what the papers report about the
        attitude of the clergy to the decree on the removal of church
        property in addition to what we know about th e illegal proclamation
        of Patriarch Tikhon, then it becomes perfectly clear that the Black
        Hundreds clergy, headed by its leader, with full deliberation is
        carrying out a plan at this very moment to destroy us decisively.

        It is obvious that the most influential group of the Black Hundreds
        clergy conceived this plan in secret meetings and that it was
        accepted with sufficient resolution. The events in Shuia is only one
        manifestation and actualization of this general plan.

        I think that here our opponent is making a huge strategic error by
        attempting to draw us into a decisive struggle now when it is
        especially hopeless and especially disadvantageous to him. For us, on
        the other hand, precisely at the present moment we are presented with
        an exceptionally favorable, even unique, opportunity when we can in
        99 out of 100 chances utterly defeat our enemy with complete success
        and guarantee for ourselves the position we require for decades.

        Now and only now, when people are bei ng eaten in famine-stricken
        areas, and hundreds, if not thousands, of corpses lie on the roads,
        we can (and therefore must) pursue the removal of church property
        with the most frenzied and ruthless energy and not hesitate to put
        down the least opposition. N ow and only now, the vast majority of
        peasants will either be on our side, or at least will not be in a
        position to support to any decisive degree this handful of Black
        Hundreds clergy and reactionary urban petty bourgeoisie, who are
        willing and able to attempt to oppose this Soviet decree with a
        policy of force.

        We must pursue the removal of church property by any means necessary
        in order to secure for ourselves a fund of several hundred million
        gold rubles (do not forget the immense wealth of some monasteries and
        lauras).

        Without this fund any government work in general, any economic build-
        up in particular, and any upholding of soviet principles in Genoa
        especially is completely unthinkable. In order to get our hands on
        this fund of several hundred million gold rubles (and perhaps even
        several hundred billion), we must do whatever is necessary. But to do
        this successfully is possible only now.

        All considerations indicate that later on we will fail to do this,
        for no other time, besides that of desperate famine, will give us
        such a mood among the general mass of peasants that would ensure us
        the sympathy of this group, or, at least, would ensure us the
        neutralization of this group in the sense that victory in the
        struggle for the removal of chur ch property unquestionably and
        completely will be on our side.

        One clever writer on statecraft correctly said that if it is
        necessary for the realization of a well-known political goal to
        perform a series of brutal actions then it is necessary to do them in
        the most energetic manner and in the shortest time, because masses of
        people will not tolerate the protracted use of brutality.

        This observation in particular is further strengthened because harsh
        measures against a reactionary clergy will be politically
        impractical, possibly even extremely dangerous as a result of the
        international situation in which we in Russia, in all probability,
        will find ourselves, or may find ourselves, after Genoa. Now victory
        over the reactionary clergy is assured us completely.

        In addition, it will be more difficult for the major part of our
        foreign adversaries among the Russian emigres abroad, i.e., the
        Socialist-Revolutionaries and the Milyukovites [Left Wing Cadet
        Party], to fight against us if we, precisely at this time, precisely
        in connection with the famine, suppress the reactionary clergy with
        utmost haste and ruthlessness.

        Therefore, I come to the indisputable conclusion that we must
        precisely now smash the Black Hundreds clergy most decisively and
        ruthlessly and put down all resistance with such brutality that they
        will not forget it for several decades.

        The campaign itself for carrying out this plan I envision in the
        following manner:

        Only Comrade Kalinin should appear officially in regard to any
        measures taken--never and under no circumstance must Comrade Trotsky
        write anything for the press or in any other way appear before the
        public.

        The telegram already issued in the name of the Politburo about the
        temporary suspension of removals must not be rescinded. It is useful
        for us because it gives our adversary the impression that we are
        vacillating, that he has succeeded in confus ing us (our adversary,
        of course, will quickly find out about this secret telegram precisely
        because it is secret).

        Send to Shuia one of the most energetic, clear-headed, and capable
        members of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee [VTsIK] or
        some other representative of the central government (one is better
        than several), giving him verbal instruc tions through one of the
        members of the Politburo. The instructions must come down to this,
        that in Shuia he must arrest more if possible but not less than
        several dozen representatives of the local clergy, the local petty
        bourgeoisie, and the local bourgeoisie on sus picion of direct or
        indirect participation in the forcible resistance to the decree of
        the VTsIK on the removal of property of value from churches.

        Immediately upon completion of this task, he must return to Moscow
        and personally deliver a report to the full session of t he Politburo
        or to two specially authorized members of the Politburo. On the basis
        of this report, the Politburo will give a detailed directive to the
        judicial authorities, also verbal, that the trial of the
        insurrectionists from Shuia, for opposing aid to the starving, should
        be carried out in utmost haste and should end not other than with the
        shooting of the very largest number of the most influential and
        dangerous of the Black Hundreds in Shuia, and, if possible, not only
        in this city but even in Moscow and several other ecclesiastical
        centers.

        I think that it is advisable for us not to touch Patriarch Tikhon
        himself, even though he undoubtedly headed this whole revolt of slave-
        holders. Concerning him, the State Political Administration [GPU]
        must be given a secret directive that precisely at this time all
        communications of this personage must be monitored and their contents
        disclosed in all possible accuracy and detail. Require Dzerzhinsky
        and Unshlikht personally to report to the Politburo about this
        weekly.

        At the party congress arrange a secret meeting of all or almost all
        delegates to discuss this matter jointly with the chief workers of
        the GPU, the People's Commissariat of Justice [NKIu], and the
        Revolutionary Tribunal. At this meeting pa ss a secret resolution of
        the congress that the removal of property of value, especially from
        the very richest lauras, monasteries, and churches, must be carried
        out with ruthless resolution, leaving nothing in doubt, and in the
        very shortest time.

        The greater the n umber of representatives of the reactionary clergy
        and the reactionary bourgeoisie that we succeed in shooting on this
        occasion, the better because this 'audience' must precisely now be
        taught a lesson in such a way that they will not dare to think about
        any resis tance whatsoever for several decades.

        To attend to the quickest and most successful carrying out of these
        measures, there at the congress, i.e., at the secret meeting, appoint
        a special commission, the participation of Comrade Trotsky and
        Comrade Kalinin being required, without giving any publicity to this
        commission, with the purpose that the subordination to it of all
        operations would be provided for and carried out not in the name of
        the commission but as an all-soviet and all-party order. Appoint
        those who are especially responsible from among the best workers to
        carry out these measures in the wealthiest lauras, monasteries, and
        churches.

        Lenin.

        March 19, 1922.

        I request that Comrade Molotov attempt to circulate this letter to
        the members of the Politburo by evening today (not making copies) and
        ask them to return it to the secretary immediately after reading it,
        with a succinct note regarding whether each member of the Politburo
        agrees in principle or if the letter arouses any differences of
        opinion.

        Lenin.

        A note in the hand of Comrade Molotov:

        'Agreed. However, I propose to extend the campaign not to all
        gubernias and cities, but to those where indeed there are
        considerable possessions of value, accordingly concentrating the
        forces and attention of the party.'

        March 19. Molotov.'

        True copy: [illegible]

        The original has been transferred to the Lenin Institute.

        Etext from http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918p/lenimolo.html.






        Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod




        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        ADVERTISEMENT





        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Yahoo! Groups Links

        a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-synod/

        b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        orthodox-synod-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Fr. John R. Shaw
        ... ecclesiastical ... Emperor Nicholas ... JRS: For that matter, the meetings of the Holy Synod were also private. In the Church Abroad, there was one period
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:

          > What about all the nonpublic commissions (including scores of
          ecclesiastical
          > ones) in the 19th century? I hope we are not going to accuse
          Emperor
          Nicholas
          > I of communist tactics.

          JRS: For that matter, the meetings of the Holy Synod were also
          private.

          In the Church Abroad, there was one period when the Synod meetings
          were
          held openly in the Synodal cathedral, under Metropolitan Anastassy.
          Laity were permitted to attend, though of course they had to be
          respectful and silent.

          Later, at least from the time of Metropolitan Philaret, the Synod
          meetings were no longer public, and no one except the actual Synod
          members were admitted.

          The accounts of the proceedings were always skimpy and minimal, and
          from what Vl. Nikon and Vl. Seraphim told me, much was discussed by
          the
          bishops that was never indicated, in any way, in the record.

          It seems odd that only now, when it suits certain people, we are
          beginning to hear these accusations of "secrecy"!

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw
        • Gene T
          5 years ago meetings of the Holy Synod were truly nobody s business, besides the proceedings were later printed in in Orthodox Life anyway. Things like
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            5 years ago meetings of the Holy Synod were truly nobody's business, besides the proceedings were later printed in in Orthodox Life anyway. Things like personnel, financial issues and many others are not meant to be discussed by every lay member of the church, that's what Bishops are for. No one would argue with that.

            The "Secrecy" issue concerns one thing only. Process of ROCOR reconciliation with MP. Many Russian emigrants, especially these of 1917-23 and 1945 vintage know very well what ROCOR is all about and are perplexed to see such sudden 180% change. Many suspect foul play. Every major player on both sides has been accused of KGB membership and worse. Many remember that most Bishops were saying completely different things five years ago. Now they all look like some kind of Manchurian Candidates from the outside.

            In this horrendously poisoned atmosphere a little dose of glasnost would surely help alleviate a lot of suspicions. What could be so secret about these negotiations ? Profit sharing and money laundering on cigarettes and alcohol import quotas that ROCOR now will participate in together with MP ? Russian abortions fetal tissue cosmetics distribution deal in North America ? Multi-million Real Estate development projects in Holy Land ? Homosexual videos ? What are the "other vital, burning questions" Arch. Luka cryptically refers to in his report beside sergianism and ecumenism ?

            We, the ROCOR laity are not some 19 century illiterate Russian serfs. We are 21 century Americans, Wester Europeans, Latin Americans. We can read and write for goodness sake. I personally would like to be treated with respect accorded to your average American Catholic or Episcopalian layman by their Bishops. Namely being fully informed of all deliberation concerning my faith. We all read papers, you know what I am talking about.

            Last but not least ask yourself - What would Jesus do ?
            Have a blessed day Y'all

            Gene T




            "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:

            > What about all the nonpublic commissions (including scores of
            ecclesiastical
            > ones) in the 19th century? I hope we are not going to accuse
            Emperor
            Nicholas
            > I of communist tactics.

            JRS: For that matter, the meetings of the Holy Synod were also
            private.

            In the Church Abroad, there was one period when the Synod meetings
            were
            held openly in the Synodal cathedral, under Metropolitan Anastassy.
            Laity were permitted to attend, though of course they had to be
            respectful and silent.

            Later, at least from the time of Metropolitan Philaret, the Synod
            meetings were no longer public, and no one except the actual Synod
            members were admitted.

            The accounts of the proceedings were always skimpy and minimal, and
            from what Vl. Nikon and Vl. Seraphim told me, much was discussed by
            the
            bishops that was never indicated, in any way, in the record.

            It seems odd that only now, when it suits certain people, we are
            beginning to hear these accusations of "secrecy"!

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw








            Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod




            Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


            ---------------------------------
            Yahoo! Groups Links

            To visit your group on the web, go to:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-synod/

            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            orthodox-synod-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




            ---------------------------------
            Do you Yahoo!?
            Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • vkozyreff
            Dear father John, bless. You write: It seems odd that only now, when it suits certain people, we are beginning to hear these accusations of secrecy ! It is
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear father John, bless.

              You write: "It seems odd that only now, when it suits certain
              people, we are beginning to hear these accusations of "secrecy"!

              It is not odd. These are not accusations but observations about a
              deliberate and proclaimed policy of secrecy, which suits certain
              people. We are told in an authoritarian way, that there is an
              agreement between the ROCOR hierarchy and the MP to act in secrecy.
              Reporting that fact is not yet an accusation, but you are right, the
              temptation is there.

              The fact that laity wants to be associated with capital decisions of
              the Church is orthodox, traditional, legitimate and desirable.

              The fact that the tradition has been interrupted after being revived
              for short periods is no argument to say that it should be abandoned
              for ever. Sobornost is part of orthodoxy.

              The fact that the will of the people to participate is now being
              expressed cannot be criticised under the false pretext that it was
              not expressed a while ago. The more the faithful participate in the
              life of the Church, the better.

              The Church is not made exclusively of those who share your views
              about the union with the MP. The Church is made of all the orthodox
              faithful, with the clergy and the hierarchy. One cannot deliberately
              exclude an essential part of the Church from capital decisions on
              the basis of their opposition to the union with the MP before it has
              repented.

              If the orthodox people are getting involved, maybe this is the will
              of God, and maybe we should accept this by humility.

              You wonder why the people want to take part now, while they did not
              before. This is a sign of a reality that you once eloquently
              mentioned: times have changed.

              Times have changed because a sizeable part of hierarchs and priests
              have "changed their minds", and still claim that they are in
              agreement with the Church, in spite of the Church not changing hers.

              Times have changed because the Church is at a crossroad and must
              exert her discernment about the formidable deceit of the MP
              allegedly being the Church without repenting.

              Times have changed because much of the fervour that characterised
              our hierarchy of the first years seems to have faded away.

              Times have changed because the ROCOR is now looking for a legitimacy
              from the MP, and her hierarchs have lost faith in their Church.

              Times have changed because clergy in good standing do not know any
              longer what sergianism and ecumenism are about.

              If times have changed, why being surprised at the fact that people
              change as a consequence?

              May God unite us all in his truth. I beg your prayers.

              In God,

              Vladimir Kozyreff



              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
              <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
              > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:
              >
              > > What about all the nonpublic commissions (including scores of
              > ecclesiastical
              > > ones) in the 19th century? I hope we are not going to accuse
              > Emperor
              > Nicholas
              > > I of communist tactics.
              >
              > JRS: For that matter, the meetings of the Holy Synod were also
              > private.
              >
              > In the Church Abroad, there was one period when the Synod meetings
              > were
              > held openly in the Synodal cathedral, under Metropolitan
              Anastassy.
              > Laity were permitted to attend, though of course they had to be
              > respectful and silent.
              >
              > Later, at least from the time of Metropolitan Philaret, the Synod
              > meetings were no longer public, and no one except the actual Synod
              > members were admitted.
              >
              > The accounts of the proceedings were always skimpy and minimal,
              and
              > from what Vl. Nikon and Vl. Seraphim told me, much was discussed
              by
              > the
              > bishops that was never indicated, in any way, in the record.
              >
              > It seems odd that only now, when it suits certain people, we are
              > beginning to hear these accusations of "secrecy"!
              >
              > In Christ
              > Fr. John R. Shaw
            • michael nikitin
              This isn t *just* any old Synod meeting. In ROCOR Synod meetings it is with our ROCOR bishops. These meetings are with the MP who we don t trust because of
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                This isn't *just* any old Synod meeting. In ROCOR Synod meetings it is with our
                ROCOR bishops. These meetings are with the MP who we don't
                trust because of their actions. The meetings will have repurcussions that will
                change ROCOR, administratively and spiritually.

                Let the meetings be secret. This will speed up the process of union. It's
                going to happen one way or another. Let's face the facts. Then we can
                concelebrate in those big beautiful Cathedrals with golden domes that many
                of us who want union dreamed of.

                Michael N

                "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:

                > What about all the nonpublic commissions (including scores of
                ecclesiastical
                > ones) in the 19th century? I hope we are not going to accuse
                Emperor
                Nicholas
                > I of communist tactics.

                JRS: For that matter, the meetings of the Holy Synod were also
                private.

                In the Church Abroad, there was one period when the Synod meetings
                were
                held openly in the Synodal cathedral, under Metropolitan Anastassy.
                Laity were permitted to attend, though of course they had to be
                respectful and silent.

                Later, at least from the time of Metropolitan Philaret, the Synod
                meetings were no longer public, and no one except the actual Synod
                members were admitted.

                The accounts of the proceedings were always skimpy and minimal, and
                from what Vl. Nikon and Vl. Seraphim told me, much was discussed by
                the
                bishops that was never indicated, in any way, in the record.

                It seems odd that only now, when it suits certain people, we are
                beginning to hear these accusations of "secrecy"!

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw



                ---------------------------------
                Do you Yahoo!?
                Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • frvboldewskul@aol.com
                In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... Bog Blagoslovit, I made no proposal. I did, however, take exception to your post suggesting or
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                  vladimir.kozyreff@... writes:

                  > Dear Father Victor, bless.
                  >
                  > I suggest there is a fallacy in your proposal.
                  >
                  >

                  Bog Blagoslovit,
                  I made no proposal. I did, however, take exception to your post suggesting or
                  implying that our Synod is acting like the communists. Note that I find this
                  to be an extremely insulting comparison to make to a Church whose members and
                  families suffered immensely at the hands of the Soviets. Please be more
                  careful in what you write as a "friend of the Russian Church Abroad."
                  In Christ,
                  Priest Victor Boldewskul


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • frvboldewskul@aol.com
                  In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gene703@yahoo.com ... And once the Commissions work is completed, and if approved by both
                  Message 8 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gene703@...
                    writes:

                    > 5 years ago meetings of the Holy Synod were truly nobody's business,
                    > besides the proceedings were later printed in in Orthodox Life anyway.

                    And once the Commissions' work is completed, and if approved by both
                    Churches, they will later be printed in Orthodox Life, I am sure.

                    In Christ,
                    Priest Victor Boldewskul

                    p.s. The current question of reconciliation of the two parts of the Russian
                    Church has been, in my view, the most open and public process in the history of
                    the Russian Church. Never has so much official information been put out so
                    fast in the history of the Russian Church. In large part, this is due to modern
                    technology, in part, the open and free nature of our Church.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Paul O. BARTLETT
                    ... Looking at the matter as a (now) outsider, it seems to me that, yes, some kind of union (call it reconciliation, if you prefer) with MP is going to take
                    Message 9 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, michael nikitin wrote:

                      > [...] This will speed up the process of union. It's
                      > going to happen one way or another. Let's face the facts. Then we can
                      > concelebrate in those big beautiful Cathedrals with golden domes that many
                      > of us who want union dreamed of.

                      Looking at the matter as a (now) outsider, it seems to me that,
                      yes, some kind of union (call it reconciliation, if you prefer) with
                      MP is going to take place, sooner or later. (I would be hard pressed
                      to come up with a time, but I suspect within five years.) The main
                      question, as I see it, is, What is going to happen? To be honest, I
                      doubt that there will be 100% acceptance. Some in ROCOR, both clergy
                      and laity alike, will not go along.

                      What, then, will they do? Form their own jurisdiction in the
                      manner of HOCNA (although of different initial motivation)? I would
                      not be surprised if at least a few would try to do so. If so, those in
                      the reconciled MP/ROCOR would very probably consider them schismatic.
                      (But are there not already some within the MP who consider ROCOR to be
                      schismatic as it is?) Some might go to already existing jurisdictions
                      if they (i.e., those who might make the move) do not have too big a
                      hangup on Russianness, as if Orthodox Christianity is to be equated
                      with Russianness. The Greek Old Calendarists come to mind.

                      In any case, I seem some rough sledding ahead for at least some
                      people who are going to have to make some decisions they find painful.

                      --
                      Paul Bartlett
                      bartlett "at" smart "dot" net
                      PGP key info in message headers
                    • vkozyreff
                      Dear Father Victor, bless. You write: I made no proposal . This must be a misunderstanding. I think you did make a proposal, according to the definition of
                      Message 10 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Father Victor, bless.

                        You write: "I made no proposal".

                        This must be a misunderstanding. I think you did make a proposal,
                        according to the definition of this word. A proposal is something
                        that is put forward for consideration: proposition, submission,
                        suggestion. You put forward for consideration the suggestion that
                        present secrecy in the negotiations with the MP was all right because
                        it had been practiced under Nicholas I. I suggest that this is a
                        fallacy.

                        Then you write that you "take exception to your post suggesting or
                        implying that our Synod is acting like the communists".

                        If the communists act in secrecy and present the resolution of a
                        secret committee as coming from a much wider instance, anybody who
                        does a similar thing acts like the communists from this angle. If
                        anything suggests that the Synod is acting like the communists, it is
                        the facts that make this suggestion, not the reporter of those facts.

                        Moreover, in certain leading ROCOR circles, Soviet culture is now
                        viewed as something that you can live or unite with. Some priest on
                        this forum wrote that the sin should not be pushed out of the Church,
                        implying that the Church could live with sergianism in her bosom, and
                        that opposing views generate schism.

                        You write: "Note that I find this to be an extremely insulting
                        comparison to make to a Church whose members and families suffered
                        immensely at the hands of the Soviets".

                        I am part of that Church; my family gave fighters and officers to the
                        White Army and was massacred by the Reds. My father escaped in tragic
                        circumstances with God's help, when he was a 14 years old orphan. I
                        was born in exile, deprived of the land of my ancestors. In the
                        exercise of my profession, I have seen for 15 years the appalling
                        devastation caused by communism in Russia. My only consolation has
                        been the ROCOR and her stand for the Truth. You may understand what I
                        suffer when I see my Church having secret agreements with a Soviet
                        structure and ignoring warnings coming from her most loving clergy
                        and faithful.

                        You write: "Please be more careful in what you write as a "friend of
                        the Russian Church Abroad."

                        What could be friendlier to the ROCOR than saying: "Let us keep faith
                        in ROCOR, she does not need any legitimisation from the MP, because
                        she is legitimate, let us be faithful to her traditional path"?

                        Please pardon me if I have offended anyone.


                        In God,

                        Vladimir Kozyreff



                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:
                        > In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                        > vladimir.kozyreff@s... writes:
                        >
                        > > Dear Father Victor, bless.
                        > >
                        > > I suggest there is a fallacy in your proposal.
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > Bog Blagoslovit,
                        > I made no proposal. I did, however, take exception to your post
                        suggesting or
                        > implying that our Synod is acting like the communists. Note that I
                        find this
                        > to be an extremely insulting comparison to make to a Church whose
                        members and
                        > families suffered immensely at the hands of the Soviets. Please be
                        more
                        > careful in what you write as a "friend of the Russian Church
                        Abroad."
                        > In Christ,
                        > Priest Victor Boldewskul
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • frvboldewskul@aol.com
                        In a message dated 8/4/04 5:22:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... This is the problem. I made no comment about current talks with the MP in that post. I was
                        Message 11 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          In a message dated 8/4/04 5:22:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                          vladimir.kozyreff@... writes:

                          > You put forward for consideration the suggestion that
                          > present secrecy in the negotiations with the MP was all right because
                          > it had been practiced under Nicholas I. I suggest that this is a
                          > fallacy.
                          >
                          >

                          This is the problem. I made no comment about current talks with the MP in
                          that post. I was pointing out an error in your post suggesting that our current
                          commission are rooted in communism. I simply pointed that from a historical
                          point of view, this is problematic. Commissions are rooted in the Synodal period.
                          I made no comment about whether this is good or bad. I have my own view on
                          commissions, and I have not shared them in public. Coming to understand the
                          past does not necessarily mean justification or rejection of an event in the
                          present.

                          In the Synodal period (for better or for worse), commissions were set up to
                          investigate incorrupt relics, education/seminary reforrm/ soslovia reform,
                          liturgical reform, financial crisis etc...and often few knew what was going on or
                          that such commissions exist. Now, one does not have to accept this a a
                          favorable model, especially as some noted the advancement of education and
                          technology, but it does show that commissions in Church life are rooted in the Synodal
                          period (that's 1700 until 1918). Whether the Soviets used them as you note is
                          irrelevant for a Church historian.

                          In Christ,
                          Priest Victor Boldewskul


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • michael nikitin
                          This official information is always put out by the MP first on their site. That is where the real information is to be found on what transpired. Maybe they re
                          Message 12 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            This official information is always put out by the MP first on their
                            site. That is where the real information is to be found on what transpired.

                            Maybe they're on the new calendar?

                            Michael N

                            frvboldewskul@... wrote:
                            In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gene703@...
                            writes:

                            > 5 years ago meetings of the Holy Synod were truly nobody's business,
                            > besides the proceedings were later printed in in Orthodox Life anyway.

                            And once the Commissions' work is completed, and if approved by both
                            Churches, they will later be printed in Orthodox Life, I am sure.

                            In Christ,
                            Priest Victor Boldewskul

                            p.s. The current question of reconciliation of the two parts of the Russian
                            Church has been, in my view, the most open and public process in the history of
                            the Russian Church. Never has so much official information been put out so
                            fast in the history of the Russian Church. In large part, this is due to modern
                            technology, in part, the open and free nature of our Church.


                            ---------------------------------
                            Do you Yahoo!?
                            New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Fr. John R. Shaw
                            ... transpired. ... JRS: If by they you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates given
                            Message 13 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Michael Nikitin wrote:

                              > This official information is always put out by the MP first on their
                              > site. That is where the real information is to be found on what
                              transpired.
                              >
                              > Maybe they're on the new calendar?

                              JRS: If by "they" you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the
                              Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates given
                              for various church holidays.

                              Also note that the Russian word "glasnost'" has no "T" in the middle:
                              it comes from "glas" or "golos", meaning "voice".

                              In Christ
                              Fr. John R. Shaw
                            • vkozyreff
                              Dear Father John, bless. I believe that intolerance to misspelling of words is a noble thing and should be encouraged, particularly with regards to the
                              Message 14 of 17 , Aug 5, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Dear Father John, bless.

                                I believe that intolerance to misspelling of words is a noble thing
                                and should be encouraged, particularly with regards to the beautiful
                                Russian language.

                                This however should not divert us from maintaining our vigilance
                                against unorthodox concepts in particular those by which conciliarity
                                is absent when capital decisions about the Church are being taken.
                                The MP does not enjoy universal regognition, among clergy and
                                faithful, as being even part of the Church. This may not be ignored,
                                even at the "highest level".

                                This, after all, was the subject of this discussion.

                                Orthography relates to the times, orthodoxy relates to eternity. The
                                MP calendar may be officially the old one, but its agenda might be
                                worse than the new calendar. When Michael jokingly mentions the new
                                calendar, he may be closer to the truth than those who check the
                                dates.

                                In God,

                                Vladimir Kozyreff

                                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                                <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                                > Michael Nikitin wrote:
                                >
                                > > This official information is always put out by the MP first on
                                their
                                > > site. That is where the real information is to be found on what
                                > transpired.
                                > >
                                > > Maybe they're on the new calendar?
                                >
                                > JRS: If by "they" you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the
                                > Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates
                                given
                                > for various church holidays.
                                >
                                > Also note that the Russian word "glasnost'" has no "T" in the
                                middle:
                                > it comes from "glas" or "golos", meaning "voice".
                                >
                                > In Christ
                                > Fr. John R. Shaw
                              • michael nikitin
                                Fr.John is quick to deflect from the main point. One can read the MP s website and get current information on what transpired in those meetings that our
                                Message 15 of 17 , Aug 6, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Fr.John is quick to deflect from the main point.

                                  One can read the MP's website and get current information on what
                                  transpired in those meetings that our ROCOR(L) is afraid to tell us
                                  on their website.

                                  Michael N


                                  Michael Nikitin wrote:

                                  > This official information is always put out by the MP first on their
                                  > site. That is where the real information is to be found on what
                                  transpired.
                                  >
                                  > Maybe they're on the new calendar?

                                  JRS: If by "they" you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the
                                  Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates given
                                  for various church holidays.

                                  Also note that the Russian word "glasnost'" has no "T" in the middle:
                                  it comes from "glas" or "golos", meaning "voice".

                                  In Christ
                                  Fr. John R. Shaw



                                  __________________________________________________
                                  Do You Yahoo!?
                                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                  http://mail.yahoo.com

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.