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Commissions in Soviet culture

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  • vkozyreff
    Dear List, When looking backwards at the way the persecution of the Church was organised right from the start of the Soviet regime, one is struck by the use of
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear List,

      When looking backwards at the way the persecution of the Church was
      organised right from the start of the Soviet regime, one is struck by
      the use of committees and secrecy, which was a key feature of the
      methods used. In fact, it became an element of Soviet culture.

      A good example is the letter from Lenin to Molotov dated 19 March
      1922, about the 'Black Hundreds' Anti-Clerical Campaign.

      The full text is below, I give here two excerpts that are
      particularly eloquent:

      "Please make no copies for any reason. Each member of the Politburo
      (incl. Comrade Kalinin) should comment directly on the document...

      the participation of Comrade Trotsky and Comrade Kalinin being
      required, without giving any publicity to this commission, with the
      purpose that the subordination to it of all operations would be
      provided for and carried out not in the name of the commission but as
      an all-soviet and all-party order".

      In God,

      Vladimir Kozyreff

      Complete text:

      Copy To Comrade Molotov

      Top Secret For members of the Politburo

      Please make no copies for any reason. Each member of the Politburo
      (incl. Comrade Kalinin) should comment directly on the document.
      Lenin.

      In regard to the occurrence at Shuia, which is already slated for
      discussion by the Polituro, it is necessary right now to make a firm
      decision about a general plan of action in the present course.
      Because I doubt that I will be able to attend the Politburo meeting
      on March 20th in person, I will set down my thoughts in writing.

      The event at Shuia should be connected with the announcement that the
      Russian News Agency [ROST] recently sent to the newspapers but that
      was not for publication, namely, the announcement that the Black
      Hundreds in Petrograd [Piter] were preparing to defy the decree on
      the removal of property of value from the churches.

      If this fact is compared with what the papers report about the
      attitude of the clergy to the decree on the removal of church
      property in addition to what we know about th e illegal proclamation
      of Patriarch Tikhon, then it becomes perfectly clear that the Black
      Hundreds clergy, headed by its leader, with full deliberation is
      carrying out a plan at this very moment to destroy us decisively.

      It is obvious that the most influential group of the Black Hundreds
      clergy conceived this plan in secret meetings and that it was
      accepted with sufficient resolution. The events in Shuia is only one
      manifestation and actualization of this general plan.

      I think that here our opponent is making a huge strategic error by
      attempting to draw us into a decisive struggle now when it is
      especially hopeless and especially disadvantageous to him. For us, on
      the other hand, precisely at the present moment we are presented with
      an exceptionally favorable, even unique, opportunity when we can in
      99 out of 100 chances utterly defeat our enemy with complete success
      and guarantee for ourselves the position we require for decades.

      Now and only now, when people are bei ng eaten in famine-stricken
      areas, and hundreds, if not thousands, of corpses lie on the roads,
      we can (and therefore must) pursue the removal of church property
      with the most frenzied and ruthless energy and not hesitate to put
      down the least opposition. N ow and only now, the vast majority of
      peasants will either be on our side, or at least will not be in a
      position to support to any decisive degree this handful of Black
      Hundreds clergy and reactionary urban petty bourgeoisie, who are
      willing and able to attempt to oppose this Soviet decree with a
      policy of force.

      We must pursue the removal of church property by any means necessary
      in order to secure for ourselves a fund of several hundred million
      gold rubles (do not forget the immense wealth of some monasteries and
      lauras).

      Without this fund any government work in general, any economic build-
      up in particular, and any upholding of soviet principles in Genoa
      especially is completely unthinkable. In order to get our hands on
      this fund of several hundred million gold rubles (and perhaps even
      several hundred billion), we must do whatever is necessary. But to do
      this successfully is possible only now.

      All considerations indicate that later on we will fail to do this,
      for no other time, besides that of desperate famine, will give us
      such a mood among the general mass of peasants that would ensure us
      the sympathy of this group, or, at least, would ensure us the
      neutralization of this group in the sense that victory in the
      struggle for the removal of chur ch property unquestionably and
      completely will be on our side.

      One clever writer on statecraft correctly said that if it is
      necessary for the realization of a well-known political goal to
      perform a series of brutal actions then it is necessary to do them in
      the most energetic manner and in the shortest time, because masses of
      people will not tolerate the protracted use of brutality.

      This observation in particular is further strengthened because harsh
      measures against a reactionary clergy will be politically
      impractical, possibly even extremely dangerous as a result of the
      international situation in which we in Russia, in all probability,
      will find ourselves, or may find ourselves, after Genoa. Now victory
      over the reactionary clergy is assured us completely.

      In addition, it will be more difficult for the major part of our
      foreign adversaries among the Russian emigres abroad, i.e., the
      Socialist-Revolutionaries and the Milyukovites [Left Wing Cadet
      Party], to fight against us if we, precisely at this time, precisely
      in connection with the famine, suppress the reactionary clergy with
      utmost haste and ruthlessness.

      Therefore, I come to the indisputable conclusion that we must
      precisely now smash the Black Hundreds clergy most decisively and
      ruthlessly and put down all resistance with such brutality that they
      will not forget it for several decades.

      The campaign itself for carrying out this plan I envision in the
      following manner:

      Only Comrade Kalinin should appear officially in regard to any
      measures taken--never and under no circumstance must Comrade Trotsky
      write anything for the press or in any other way appear before the
      public.

      The telegram already issued in the name of the Politburo about the
      temporary suspension of removals must not be rescinded. It is useful
      for us because it gives our adversary the impression that we are
      vacillating, that he has succeeded in confus ing us (our adversary,
      of course, will quickly find out about this secret telegram precisely
      because it is secret).

      Send to Shuia one of the most energetic, clear-headed, and capable
      members of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee [VTsIK] or
      some other representative of the central government (one is better
      than several), giving him verbal instruc tions through one of the
      members of the Politburo. The instructions must come down to this,
      that in Shuia he must arrest more if possible but not less than
      several dozen representatives of the local clergy, the local petty
      bourgeoisie, and the local bourgeoisie on sus picion of direct or
      indirect participation in the forcible resistance to the decree of
      the VTsIK on the removal of property of value from churches.

      Immediately upon completion of this task, he must return to Moscow
      and personally deliver a report to the full session of t he Politburo
      or to two specially authorized members of the Politburo. On the basis
      of this report, the Politburo will give a detailed directive to the
      judicial authorities, also verbal, that the trial of the
      insurrectionists from Shuia, for opposing aid to the starving, should
      be carried out in utmost haste and should end not other than with the
      shooting of the very largest number of the most influential and
      dangerous of the Black Hundreds in Shuia, and, if possible, not only
      in this city but even in Moscow and several other ecclesiastical
      centers.

      I think that it is advisable for us not to touch Patriarch Tikhon
      himself, even though he undoubtedly headed this whole revolt of slave-
      holders. Concerning him, the State Political Administration [GPU]
      must be given a secret directive that precisely at this time all
      communications of this personage must be monitored and their contents
      disclosed in all possible accuracy and detail. Require Dzerzhinsky
      and Unshlikht personally to report to the Politburo about this
      weekly.

      At the party congress arrange a secret meeting of all or almost all
      delegates to discuss this matter jointly with the chief workers of
      the GPU, the People's Commissariat of Justice [NKIu], and the
      Revolutionary Tribunal. At this meeting pa ss a secret resolution of
      the congress that the removal of property of value, especially from
      the very richest lauras, monasteries, and churches, must be carried
      out with ruthless resolution, leaving nothing in doubt, and in the
      very shortest time.

      The greater the n umber of representatives of the reactionary clergy
      and the reactionary bourgeoisie that we succeed in shooting on this
      occasion, the better because this 'audience' must precisely now be
      taught a lesson in such a way that they will not dare to think about
      any resis tance whatsoever for several decades.

      To attend to the quickest and most successful carrying out of these
      measures, there at the congress, i.e., at the secret meeting, appoint
      a special commission, the participation of Comrade Trotsky and
      Comrade Kalinin being required, without giving any publicity to this
      commission, with the purpose that the subordination to it of all
      operations would be provided for and carried out not in the name of
      the commission but as an all-soviet and all-party order. Appoint
      those who are especially responsible from among the best workers to
      carry out these measures in the wealthiest lauras, monasteries, and
      churches.

      Lenin.

      March 19, 1922.

      I request that Comrade Molotov attempt to circulate this letter to
      the members of the Politburo by evening today (not making copies) and
      ask them to return it to the secretary immediately after reading it,
      with a succinct note regarding whether each member of the Politburo
      agrees in principle or if the letter arouses any differences of
      opinion.

      Lenin.

      A note in the hand of Comrade Molotov:

      'Agreed. However, I propose to extend the campaign not to all
      gubernias and cities, but to those where indeed there are
      considerable possessions of value, accordingly concentrating the
      forces and attention of the party.'

      March 19. Molotov.'

      True copy: [illegible]

      The original has been transferred to the Lenin Institute.

      Etext from http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918p/lenimolo.html.
    • frvboldewskul@aol.com
      In a message dated 8/3/04 5:50:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... What about all the nonpublic commissions (including scores of ecclesiastical ones) in the 19th
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        In a message dated 8/3/04 5:50:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
        vladimir.kozyreff@... writes:

        > When looking backwards at the way the persecution of the Church was
        > organised right from the start of the Soviet regime, one is struck by
        > the use of committees and secrecy, which was a key feature of the
        > methods used. In fact, it became an element of Soviet culture.
        >
        >

        What about all the nonpublic commissions (including scores of ecclesiastical
        ones) in the 19th century? I hope we are not going to accuse Emperor Nicholas
        I of communist tactics.

        Priest Victor Boldewskul


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • vkozyreff
        Dear Father Victor, bless. I suggest there is a fallacy in your proposal. The question is not what HM Nicholas I or Colonel Protasov did. Neither the first nor
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Father Victor, bless.

          I suggest there is a fallacy in your proposal.

          The question is not what HM Nicholas I or Colonel Protasov did.
          Neither the first nor the second is a saint. The question is: do we,
          orthodox, consider that one can defend orthodoxy by secrecy, in other
          words by violating sobornost, which is the essence of the Church?

          If you refer to the tradition, then protest, as hierarchs of those
          days. Be on the side of the Church. Count Protasov's designs aroused
          strong opposition among Church hierarchs. When Protasov transmitted
          proposals to incorporate medicine and agronomy into the curriculum,
          the Synod brusquely rejected those ideas unsuitable on practical and
          pedagogical grounds.

          Secrecy is excluding the faithful from the decision-making process
          and allow it to be taken by in some kind of "highest level" (strange
          canonical term), supposed to make decison and then notify the people.
          Is this orthodox?

          Do you support this process?

          Would saints?

          Would St Mark of Ephese?

          Would Christ?

          In God,

          Vladimir Kozyreff

          Two wrongs make a right (logical fallacy)

          Two wrongs make a right is a logical fallacy that occurs when it is
          assumed that if one wrong is committed, another second wrong will
          cancel it out. Like many fallacies, it typically appears as the
          hidden major premise in an enthymeme.

          Often it can be a fallacy of distraction or an attempt to change the
          issue.

          For example:

          Speaker A: President Williams lied in his testimony to Congress. He
          should not do that.
          Speaker B: But you're ignoring the fact that President Johnson lied
          in his Congressional testimony!
          If President Johnson lied in his Congressional testimony, that does
          not make it acceptable or OK for President Williams to do so as well.
          In this usage it may also be similar to the bandwagon fallacy (as
          an "appeal to popularity"); both are red herring fallacies.

          http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Two_wrongs_make_a_right_%
          28logical_fallacy%29


          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:
          > In a message dated 8/3/04 5:50:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
          > vladimir.kozyreff@s... writes:
          >
          > > When looking backwards at the way the persecution of the Church
          was
          > > organised right from the start of the Soviet regime, one is
          struck by
          > > the use of committees and secrecy, which was a key feature of the
          > > methods used. In fact, it became an element of Soviet culture.
          > >
          > >
          >
          > What about all the nonpublic commissions (including scores of
          ecclesiastical
          > ones) in the 19th century? I hope we are not going to accuse
          Emperor Nicholas
          > I of communist tactics.
          >
          > Priest Victor Boldewskul
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • VJB
          Vladimir! Is use of committees and secrecy an exclusive feature of the Soviet regime? Is that what you are saying? viatcheslav ... From: vkozyreff To:
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Vladimir!

            Is "use of committees and secrecy" an exclusive feature of the Soviet regime? Is that what you are saying?

            viatcheslav
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: vkozyreff
            To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 3:33 AM
            Subject: [orthodox-synod] Commissions in Soviet culture


            Dear List,

            When looking backwards at the way the persecution of the Church was
            organised right from the start of the Soviet regime, one is struck by
            the use of committees and secrecy, which was a key feature of the
            methods used. In fact, it became an element of Soviet culture.

            A good example is the letter from Lenin to Molotov dated 19 March
            1922, about the 'Black Hundreds' Anti-Clerical Campaign.

            The full text is below, I give here two excerpts that are
            particularly eloquent:

            "Please make no copies for any reason. Each member of the Politburo
            (incl. Comrade Kalinin) should comment directly on the document...

            the participation of Comrade Trotsky and Comrade Kalinin being
            required, without giving any publicity to this commission, with the
            purpose that the subordination to it of all operations would be
            provided for and carried out not in the name of the commission but as
            an all-soviet and all-party order".

            In God,

            Vladimir Kozyreff

            Complete text:

            Copy To Comrade Molotov

            Top Secret For members of the Politburo

            Please make no copies for any reason. Each member of the Politburo
            (incl. Comrade Kalinin) should comment directly on the document.
            Lenin.

            In regard to the occurrence at Shuia, which is already slated for
            discussion by the Polituro, it is necessary right now to make a firm
            decision about a general plan of action in the present course.
            Because I doubt that I will be able to attend the Politburo meeting
            on March 20th in person, I will set down my thoughts in writing.

            The event at Shuia should be connected with the announcement that the
            Russian News Agency [ROST] recently sent to the newspapers but that
            was not for publication, namely, the announcement that the Black
            Hundreds in Petrograd [Piter] were preparing to defy the decree on
            the removal of property of value from the churches.

            If this fact is compared with what the papers report about the
            attitude of the clergy to the decree on the removal of church
            property in addition to what we know about th e illegal proclamation
            of Patriarch Tikhon, then it becomes perfectly clear that the Black
            Hundreds clergy, headed by its leader, with full deliberation is
            carrying out a plan at this very moment to destroy us decisively.

            It is obvious that the most influential group of the Black Hundreds
            clergy conceived this plan in secret meetings and that it was
            accepted with sufficient resolution. The events in Shuia is only one
            manifestation and actualization of this general plan.

            I think that here our opponent is making a huge strategic error by
            attempting to draw us into a decisive struggle now when it is
            especially hopeless and especially disadvantageous to him. For us, on
            the other hand, precisely at the present moment we are presented with
            an exceptionally favorable, even unique, opportunity when we can in
            99 out of 100 chances utterly defeat our enemy with complete success
            and guarantee for ourselves the position we require for decades.

            Now and only now, when people are bei ng eaten in famine-stricken
            areas, and hundreds, if not thousands, of corpses lie on the roads,
            we can (and therefore must) pursue the removal of church property
            with the most frenzied and ruthless energy and not hesitate to put
            down the least opposition. N ow and only now, the vast majority of
            peasants will either be on our side, or at least will not be in a
            position to support to any decisive degree this handful of Black
            Hundreds clergy and reactionary urban petty bourgeoisie, who are
            willing and able to attempt to oppose this Soviet decree with a
            policy of force.

            We must pursue the removal of church property by any means necessary
            in order to secure for ourselves a fund of several hundred million
            gold rubles (do not forget the immense wealth of some monasteries and
            lauras).

            Without this fund any government work in general, any economic build-
            up in particular, and any upholding of soviet principles in Genoa
            especially is completely unthinkable. In order to get our hands on
            this fund of several hundred million gold rubles (and perhaps even
            several hundred billion), we must do whatever is necessary. But to do
            this successfully is possible only now.

            All considerations indicate that later on we will fail to do this,
            for no other time, besides that of desperate famine, will give us
            such a mood among the general mass of peasants that would ensure us
            the sympathy of this group, or, at least, would ensure us the
            neutralization of this group in the sense that victory in the
            struggle for the removal of chur ch property unquestionably and
            completely will be on our side.

            One clever writer on statecraft correctly said that if it is
            necessary for the realization of a well-known political goal to
            perform a series of brutal actions then it is necessary to do them in
            the most energetic manner and in the shortest time, because masses of
            people will not tolerate the protracted use of brutality.

            This observation in particular is further strengthened because harsh
            measures against a reactionary clergy will be politically
            impractical, possibly even extremely dangerous as a result of the
            international situation in which we in Russia, in all probability,
            will find ourselves, or may find ourselves, after Genoa. Now victory
            over the reactionary clergy is assured us completely.

            In addition, it will be more difficult for the major part of our
            foreign adversaries among the Russian emigres abroad, i.e., the
            Socialist-Revolutionaries and the Milyukovites [Left Wing Cadet
            Party], to fight against us if we, precisely at this time, precisely
            in connection with the famine, suppress the reactionary clergy with
            utmost haste and ruthlessness.

            Therefore, I come to the indisputable conclusion that we must
            precisely now smash the Black Hundreds clergy most decisively and
            ruthlessly and put down all resistance with such brutality that they
            will not forget it for several decades.

            The campaign itself for carrying out this plan I envision in the
            following manner:

            Only Comrade Kalinin should appear officially in regard to any
            measures taken--never and under no circumstance must Comrade Trotsky
            write anything for the press or in any other way appear before the
            public.

            The telegram already issued in the name of the Politburo about the
            temporary suspension of removals must not be rescinded. It is useful
            for us because it gives our adversary the impression that we are
            vacillating, that he has succeeded in confus ing us (our adversary,
            of course, will quickly find out about this secret telegram precisely
            because it is secret).

            Send to Shuia one of the most energetic, clear-headed, and capable
            members of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee [VTsIK] or
            some other representative of the central government (one is better
            than several), giving him verbal instruc tions through one of the
            members of the Politburo. The instructions must come down to this,
            that in Shuia he must arrest more if possible but not less than
            several dozen representatives of the local clergy, the local petty
            bourgeoisie, and the local bourgeoisie on sus picion of direct or
            indirect participation in the forcible resistance to the decree of
            the VTsIK on the removal of property of value from churches.

            Immediately upon completion of this task, he must return to Moscow
            and personally deliver a report to the full session of t he Politburo
            or to two specially authorized members of the Politburo. On the basis
            of this report, the Politburo will give a detailed directive to the
            judicial authorities, also verbal, that the trial of the
            insurrectionists from Shuia, for opposing aid to the starving, should
            be carried out in utmost haste and should end not other than with the
            shooting of the very largest number of the most influential and
            dangerous of the Black Hundreds in Shuia, and, if possible, not only
            in this city but even in Moscow and several other ecclesiastical
            centers.

            I think that it is advisable for us not to touch Patriarch Tikhon
            himself, even though he undoubtedly headed this whole revolt of slave-
            holders. Concerning him, the State Political Administration [GPU]
            must be given a secret directive that precisely at this time all
            communications of this personage must be monitored and their contents
            disclosed in all possible accuracy and detail. Require Dzerzhinsky
            and Unshlikht personally to report to the Politburo about this
            weekly.

            At the party congress arrange a secret meeting of all or almost all
            delegates to discuss this matter jointly with the chief workers of
            the GPU, the People's Commissariat of Justice [NKIu], and the
            Revolutionary Tribunal. At this meeting pa ss a secret resolution of
            the congress that the removal of property of value, especially from
            the very richest lauras, monasteries, and churches, must be carried
            out with ruthless resolution, leaving nothing in doubt, and in the
            very shortest time.

            The greater the n umber of representatives of the reactionary clergy
            and the reactionary bourgeoisie that we succeed in shooting on this
            occasion, the better because this 'audience' must precisely now be
            taught a lesson in such a way that they will not dare to think about
            any resis tance whatsoever for several decades.

            To attend to the quickest and most successful carrying out of these
            measures, there at the congress, i.e., at the secret meeting, appoint
            a special commission, the participation of Comrade Trotsky and
            Comrade Kalinin being required, without giving any publicity to this
            commission, with the purpose that the subordination to it of all
            operations would be provided for and carried out not in the name of
            the commission but as an all-soviet and all-party order. Appoint
            those who are especially responsible from among the best workers to
            carry out these measures in the wealthiest lauras, monasteries, and
            churches.

            Lenin.

            March 19, 1922.

            I request that Comrade Molotov attempt to circulate this letter to
            the members of the Politburo by evening today (not making copies) and
            ask them to return it to the secretary immediately after reading it,
            with a succinct note regarding whether each member of the Politburo
            agrees in principle or if the letter arouses any differences of
            opinion.

            Lenin.

            A note in the hand of Comrade Molotov:

            'Agreed. However, I propose to extend the campaign not to all
            gubernias and cities, but to those where indeed there are
            considerable possessions of value, accordingly concentrating the
            forces and attention of the party.'

            March 19. Molotov.'

            True copy: [illegible]

            The original has been transferred to the Lenin Institute.

            Etext from http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918p/lenimolo.html.






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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Fr. John R. Shaw
            ... ecclesiastical ... Emperor Nicholas ... JRS: For that matter, the meetings of the Holy Synod were also private. In the Church Abroad, there was one period
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:

              > What about all the nonpublic commissions (including scores of
              ecclesiastical
              > ones) in the 19th century? I hope we are not going to accuse
              Emperor
              Nicholas
              > I of communist tactics.

              JRS: For that matter, the meetings of the Holy Synod were also
              private.

              In the Church Abroad, there was one period when the Synod meetings
              were
              held openly in the Synodal cathedral, under Metropolitan Anastassy.
              Laity were permitted to attend, though of course they had to be
              respectful and silent.

              Later, at least from the time of Metropolitan Philaret, the Synod
              meetings were no longer public, and no one except the actual Synod
              members were admitted.

              The accounts of the proceedings were always skimpy and minimal, and
              from what Vl. Nikon and Vl. Seraphim told me, much was discussed by
              the
              bishops that was never indicated, in any way, in the record.

              It seems odd that only now, when it suits certain people, we are
              beginning to hear these accusations of "secrecy"!

              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw
            • Gene T
              5 years ago meetings of the Holy Synod were truly nobody s business, besides the proceedings were later printed in in Orthodox Life anyway. Things like
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                5 years ago meetings of the Holy Synod were truly nobody's business, besides the proceedings were later printed in in Orthodox Life anyway. Things like personnel, financial issues and many others are not meant to be discussed by every lay member of the church, that's what Bishops are for. No one would argue with that.

                The "Secrecy" issue concerns one thing only. Process of ROCOR reconciliation with MP. Many Russian emigrants, especially these of 1917-23 and 1945 vintage know very well what ROCOR is all about and are perplexed to see such sudden 180% change. Many suspect foul play. Every major player on both sides has been accused of KGB membership and worse. Many remember that most Bishops were saying completely different things five years ago. Now they all look like some kind of Manchurian Candidates from the outside.

                In this horrendously poisoned atmosphere a little dose of glasnost would surely help alleviate a lot of suspicions. What could be so secret about these negotiations ? Profit sharing and money laundering on cigarettes and alcohol import quotas that ROCOR now will participate in together with MP ? Russian abortions fetal tissue cosmetics distribution deal in North America ? Multi-million Real Estate development projects in Holy Land ? Homosexual videos ? What are the "other vital, burning questions" Arch. Luka cryptically refers to in his report beside sergianism and ecumenism ?

                We, the ROCOR laity are not some 19 century illiterate Russian serfs. We are 21 century Americans, Wester Europeans, Latin Americans. We can read and write for goodness sake. I personally would like to be treated with respect accorded to your average American Catholic or Episcopalian layman by their Bishops. Namely being fully informed of all deliberation concerning my faith. We all read papers, you know what I am talking about.

                Last but not least ask yourself - What would Jesus do ?
                Have a blessed day Y'all

                Gene T




                "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:

                > What about all the nonpublic commissions (including scores of
                ecclesiastical
                > ones) in the 19th century? I hope we are not going to accuse
                Emperor
                Nicholas
                > I of communist tactics.

                JRS: For that matter, the meetings of the Holy Synod were also
                private.

                In the Church Abroad, there was one period when the Synod meetings
                were
                held openly in the Synodal cathedral, under Metropolitan Anastassy.
                Laity were permitted to attend, though of course they had to be
                respectful and silent.

                Later, at least from the time of Metropolitan Philaret, the Synod
                meetings were no longer public, and no one except the actual Synod
                members were admitted.

                The accounts of the proceedings were always skimpy and minimal, and
                from what Vl. Nikon and Vl. Seraphim told me, much was discussed by
                the
                bishops that was never indicated, in any way, in the record.

                It seems odd that only now, when it suits certain people, we are
                beginning to hear these accusations of "secrecy"!

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw








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              • vkozyreff
                Dear father John, bless. You write: It seems odd that only now, when it suits certain people, we are beginning to hear these accusations of secrecy ! It is
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
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                  Dear father John, bless.

                  You write: "It seems odd that only now, when it suits certain
                  people, we are beginning to hear these accusations of "secrecy"!

                  It is not odd. These are not accusations but observations about a
                  deliberate and proclaimed policy of secrecy, which suits certain
                  people. We are told in an authoritarian way, that there is an
                  agreement between the ROCOR hierarchy and the MP to act in secrecy.
                  Reporting that fact is not yet an accusation, but you are right, the
                  temptation is there.

                  The fact that laity wants to be associated with capital decisions of
                  the Church is orthodox, traditional, legitimate and desirable.

                  The fact that the tradition has been interrupted after being revived
                  for short periods is no argument to say that it should be abandoned
                  for ever. Sobornost is part of orthodoxy.

                  The fact that the will of the people to participate is now being
                  expressed cannot be criticised under the false pretext that it was
                  not expressed a while ago. The more the faithful participate in the
                  life of the Church, the better.

                  The Church is not made exclusively of those who share your views
                  about the union with the MP. The Church is made of all the orthodox
                  faithful, with the clergy and the hierarchy. One cannot deliberately
                  exclude an essential part of the Church from capital decisions on
                  the basis of their opposition to the union with the MP before it has
                  repented.

                  If the orthodox people are getting involved, maybe this is the will
                  of God, and maybe we should accept this by humility.

                  You wonder why the people want to take part now, while they did not
                  before. This is a sign of a reality that you once eloquently
                  mentioned: times have changed.

                  Times have changed because a sizeable part of hierarchs and priests
                  have "changed their minds", and still claim that they are in
                  agreement with the Church, in spite of the Church not changing hers.

                  Times have changed because the Church is at a crossroad and must
                  exert her discernment about the formidable deceit of the MP
                  allegedly being the Church without repenting.

                  Times have changed because much of the fervour that characterised
                  our hierarchy of the first years seems to have faded away.

                  Times have changed because the ROCOR is now looking for a legitimacy
                  from the MP, and her hierarchs have lost faith in their Church.

                  Times have changed because clergy in good standing do not know any
                  longer what sergianism and ecumenism are about.

                  If times have changed, why being surprised at the fact that people
                  change as a consequence?

                  May God unite us all in his truth. I beg your prayers.

                  In God,

                  Vladimir Kozyreff



                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                  <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                  > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:
                  >
                  > > What about all the nonpublic commissions (including scores of
                  > ecclesiastical
                  > > ones) in the 19th century? I hope we are not going to accuse
                  > Emperor
                  > Nicholas
                  > > I of communist tactics.
                  >
                  > JRS: For that matter, the meetings of the Holy Synod were also
                  > private.
                  >
                  > In the Church Abroad, there was one period when the Synod meetings
                  > were
                  > held openly in the Synodal cathedral, under Metropolitan
                  Anastassy.
                  > Laity were permitted to attend, though of course they had to be
                  > respectful and silent.
                  >
                  > Later, at least from the time of Metropolitan Philaret, the Synod
                  > meetings were no longer public, and no one except the actual Synod
                  > members were admitted.
                  >
                  > The accounts of the proceedings were always skimpy and minimal,
                  and
                  > from what Vl. Nikon and Vl. Seraphim told me, much was discussed
                  by
                  > the
                  > bishops that was never indicated, in any way, in the record.
                  >
                  > It seems odd that only now, when it suits certain people, we are
                  > beginning to hear these accusations of "secrecy"!
                  >
                  > In Christ
                  > Fr. John R. Shaw
                • michael nikitin
                  This isn t *just* any old Synod meeting. In ROCOR Synod meetings it is with our ROCOR bishops. These meetings are with the MP who we don t trust because of
                  Message 8 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
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                    This isn't *just* any old Synod meeting. In ROCOR Synod meetings it is with our
                    ROCOR bishops. These meetings are with the MP who we don't
                    trust because of their actions. The meetings will have repurcussions that will
                    change ROCOR, administratively and spiritually.

                    Let the meetings be secret. This will speed up the process of union. It's
                    going to happen one way or another. Let's face the facts. Then we can
                    concelebrate in those big beautiful Cathedrals with golden domes that many
                    of us who want union dreamed of.

                    Michael N

                    "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:

                    > What about all the nonpublic commissions (including scores of
                    ecclesiastical
                    > ones) in the 19th century? I hope we are not going to accuse
                    Emperor
                    Nicholas
                    > I of communist tactics.

                    JRS: For that matter, the meetings of the Holy Synod were also
                    private.

                    In the Church Abroad, there was one period when the Synod meetings
                    were
                    held openly in the Synodal cathedral, under Metropolitan Anastassy.
                    Laity were permitted to attend, though of course they had to be
                    respectful and silent.

                    Later, at least from the time of Metropolitan Philaret, the Synod
                    meetings were no longer public, and no one except the actual Synod
                    members were admitted.

                    The accounts of the proceedings were always skimpy and minimal, and
                    from what Vl. Nikon and Vl. Seraphim told me, much was discussed by
                    the
                    bishops that was never indicated, in any way, in the record.

                    It seems odd that only now, when it suits certain people, we are
                    beginning to hear these accusations of "secrecy"!

                    In Christ
                    Fr. John R. Shaw



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                  • frvboldewskul@aol.com
                    In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... Bog Blagoslovit, I made no proposal. I did, however, take exception to your post suggesting or
                    Message 9 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
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                      In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                      vladimir.kozyreff@... writes:

                      > Dear Father Victor, bless.
                      >
                      > I suggest there is a fallacy in your proposal.
                      >
                      >

                      Bog Blagoslovit,
                      I made no proposal. I did, however, take exception to your post suggesting or
                      implying that our Synod is acting like the communists. Note that I find this
                      to be an extremely insulting comparison to make to a Church whose members and
                      families suffered immensely at the hands of the Soviets. Please be more
                      careful in what you write as a "friend of the Russian Church Abroad."
                      In Christ,
                      Priest Victor Boldewskul


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • frvboldewskul@aol.com
                      In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gene703@yahoo.com ... And once the Commissions work is completed, and if approved by both
                      Message 10 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
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                        In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gene703@...
                        writes:

                        > 5 years ago meetings of the Holy Synod were truly nobody's business,
                        > besides the proceedings were later printed in in Orthodox Life anyway.

                        And once the Commissions' work is completed, and if approved by both
                        Churches, they will later be printed in Orthodox Life, I am sure.

                        In Christ,
                        Priest Victor Boldewskul

                        p.s. The current question of reconciliation of the two parts of the Russian
                        Church has been, in my view, the most open and public process in the history of
                        the Russian Church. Never has so much official information been put out so
                        fast in the history of the Russian Church. In large part, this is due to modern
                        technology, in part, the open and free nature of our Church.


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Paul O. BARTLETT
                        ... Looking at the matter as a (now) outsider, it seems to me that, yes, some kind of union (call it reconciliation, if you prefer) with MP is going to take
                        Message 11 of 17 , Aug 3, 2004
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                          On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, michael nikitin wrote:

                          > [...] This will speed up the process of union. It's
                          > going to happen one way or another. Let's face the facts. Then we can
                          > concelebrate in those big beautiful Cathedrals with golden domes that many
                          > of us who want union dreamed of.

                          Looking at the matter as a (now) outsider, it seems to me that,
                          yes, some kind of union (call it reconciliation, if you prefer) with
                          MP is going to take place, sooner or later. (I would be hard pressed
                          to come up with a time, but I suspect within five years.) The main
                          question, as I see it, is, What is going to happen? To be honest, I
                          doubt that there will be 100% acceptance. Some in ROCOR, both clergy
                          and laity alike, will not go along.

                          What, then, will they do? Form their own jurisdiction in the
                          manner of HOCNA (although of different initial motivation)? I would
                          not be surprised if at least a few would try to do so. If so, those in
                          the reconciled MP/ROCOR would very probably consider them schismatic.
                          (But are there not already some within the MP who consider ROCOR to be
                          schismatic as it is?) Some might go to already existing jurisdictions
                          if they (i.e., those who might make the move) do not have too big a
                          hangup on Russianness, as if Orthodox Christianity is to be equated
                          with Russianness. The Greek Old Calendarists come to mind.

                          In any case, I seem some rough sledding ahead for at least some
                          people who are going to have to make some decisions they find painful.

                          --
                          Paul Bartlett
                          bartlett "at" smart "dot" net
                          PGP key info in message headers
                        • vkozyreff
                          Dear Father Victor, bless. You write: I made no proposal . This must be a misunderstanding. I think you did make a proposal, according to the definition of
                          Message 12 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
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                            Dear Father Victor, bless.

                            You write: "I made no proposal".

                            This must be a misunderstanding. I think you did make a proposal,
                            according to the definition of this word. A proposal is something
                            that is put forward for consideration: proposition, submission,
                            suggestion. You put forward for consideration the suggestion that
                            present secrecy in the negotiations with the MP was all right because
                            it had been practiced under Nicholas I. I suggest that this is a
                            fallacy.

                            Then you write that you "take exception to your post suggesting or
                            implying that our Synod is acting like the communists".

                            If the communists act in secrecy and present the resolution of a
                            secret committee as coming from a much wider instance, anybody who
                            does a similar thing acts like the communists from this angle. If
                            anything suggests that the Synod is acting like the communists, it is
                            the facts that make this suggestion, not the reporter of those facts.

                            Moreover, in certain leading ROCOR circles, Soviet culture is now
                            viewed as something that you can live or unite with. Some priest on
                            this forum wrote that the sin should not be pushed out of the Church,
                            implying that the Church could live with sergianism in her bosom, and
                            that opposing views generate schism.

                            You write: "Note that I find this to be an extremely insulting
                            comparison to make to a Church whose members and families suffered
                            immensely at the hands of the Soviets".

                            I am part of that Church; my family gave fighters and officers to the
                            White Army and was massacred by the Reds. My father escaped in tragic
                            circumstances with God's help, when he was a 14 years old orphan. I
                            was born in exile, deprived of the land of my ancestors. In the
                            exercise of my profession, I have seen for 15 years the appalling
                            devastation caused by communism in Russia. My only consolation has
                            been the ROCOR and her stand for the Truth. You may understand what I
                            suffer when I see my Church having secret agreements with a Soviet
                            structure and ignoring warnings coming from her most loving clergy
                            and faithful.

                            You write: "Please be more careful in what you write as a "friend of
                            the Russian Church Abroad."

                            What could be friendlier to the ROCOR than saying: "Let us keep faith
                            in ROCOR, she does not need any legitimisation from the MP, because
                            she is legitimate, let us be faithful to her traditional path"?

                            Please pardon me if I have offended anyone.


                            In God,

                            Vladimir Kozyreff



                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvboldewskul@a... wrote:
                            > In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                            > vladimir.kozyreff@s... writes:
                            >
                            > > Dear Father Victor, bless.
                            > >
                            > > I suggest there is a fallacy in your proposal.
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > Bog Blagoslovit,
                            > I made no proposal. I did, however, take exception to your post
                            suggesting or
                            > implying that our Synod is acting like the communists. Note that I
                            find this
                            > to be an extremely insulting comparison to make to a Church whose
                            members and
                            > families suffered immensely at the hands of the Soviets. Please be
                            more
                            > careful in what you write as a "friend of the Russian Church
                            Abroad."
                            > In Christ,
                            > Priest Victor Boldewskul
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • frvboldewskul@aol.com
                            In a message dated 8/4/04 5:22:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... This is the problem. I made no comment about current talks with the MP in that post. I was
                            Message 13 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
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                              In a message dated 8/4/04 5:22:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                              vladimir.kozyreff@... writes:

                              > You put forward for consideration the suggestion that
                              > present secrecy in the negotiations with the MP was all right because
                              > it had been practiced under Nicholas I. I suggest that this is a
                              > fallacy.
                              >
                              >

                              This is the problem. I made no comment about current talks with the MP in
                              that post. I was pointing out an error in your post suggesting that our current
                              commission are rooted in communism. I simply pointed that from a historical
                              point of view, this is problematic. Commissions are rooted in the Synodal period.
                              I made no comment about whether this is good or bad. I have my own view on
                              commissions, and I have not shared them in public. Coming to understand the
                              past does not necessarily mean justification or rejection of an event in the
                              present.

                              In the Synodal period (for better or for worse), commissions were set up to
                              investigate incorrupt relics, education/seminary reforrm/ soslovia reform,
                              liturgical reform, financial crisis etc...and often few knew what was going on or
                              that such commissions exist. Now, one does not have to accept this a a
                              favorable model, especially as some noted the advancement of education and
                              technology, but it does show that commissions in Church life are rooted in the Synodal
                              period (that's 1700 until 1918). Whether the Soviets used them as you note is
                              irrelevant for a Church historian.

                              In Christ,
                              Priest Victor Boldewskul


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • michael nikitin
                              This official information is always put out by the MP first on their site. That is where the real information is to be found on what transpired. Maybe they re
                              Message 14 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
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                                This official information is always put out by the MP first on their
                                site. That is where the real information is to be found on what transpired.

                                Maybe they're on the new calendar?

                                Michael N

                                frvboldewskul@... wrote:
                                In a message dated 8/3/04 1:10:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gene703@...
                                writes:

                                > 5 years ago meetings of the Holy Synod were truly nobody's business,
                                > besides the proceedings were later printed in in Orthodox Life anyway.

                                And once the Commissions' work is completed, and if approved by both
                                Churches, they will later be printed in Orthodox Life, I am sure.

                                In Christ,
                                Priest Victor Boldewskul

                                p.s. The current question of reconciliation of the two parts of the Russian
                                Church has been, in my view, the most open and public process in the history of
                                the Russian Church. Never has so much official information been put out so
                                fast in the history of the Russian Church. In large part, this is due to modern
                                technology, in part, the open and free nature of our Church.


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                              • Fr. John R. Shaw
                                ... transpired. ... JRS: If by they you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates given
                                Message 15 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
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                                  Michael Nikitin wrote:

                                  > This official information is always put out by the MP first on their
                                  > site. That is where the real information is to be found on what
                                  transpired.
                                  >
                                  > Maybe they're on the new calendar?

                                  JRS: If by "they" you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the
                                  Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates given
                                  for various church holidays.

                                  Also note that the Russian word "glasnost'" has no "T" in the middle:
                                  it comes from "glas" or "golos", meaning "voice".

                                  In Christ
                                  Fr. John R. Shaw
                                • vkozyreff
                                  Dear Father John, bless. I believe that intolerance to misspelling of words is a noble thing and should be encouraged, particularly with regards to the
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Aug 5, 2004
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                                    Dear Father John, bless.

                                    I believe that intolerance to misspelling of words is a noble thing
                                    and should be encouraged, particularly with regards to the beautiful
                                    Russian language.

                                    This however should not divert us from maintaining our vigilance
                                    against unorthodox concepts in particular those by which conciliarity
                                    is absent when capital decisions about the Church are being taken.
                                    The MP does not enjoy universal regognition, among clergy and
                                    faithful, as being even part of the Church. This may not be ignored,
                                    even at the "highest level".

                                    This, after all, was the subject of this discussion.

                                    Orthography relates to the times, orthodoxy relates to eternity. The
                                    MP calendar may be officially the old one, but its agenda might be
                                    worse than the new calendar. When Michael jokingly mentions the new
                                    calendar, he may be closer to the truth than those who check the
                                    dates.

                                    In God,

                                    Vladimir Kozyreff

                                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                                    <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                                    > Michael Nikitin wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > This official information is always put out by the MP first on
                                    their
                                    > > site. That is where the real information is to be found on what
                                    > transpired.
                                    > >
                                    > > Maybe they're on the new calendar?
                                    >
                                    > JRS: If by "they" you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the
                                    > Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates
                                    given
                                    > for various church holidays.
                                    >
                                    > Also note that the Russian word "glasnost'" has no "T" in the
                                    middle:
                                    > it comes from "glas" or "golos", meaning "voice".
                                    >
                                    > In Christ
                                    > Fr. John R. Shaw
                                  • michael nikitin
                                    Fr.John is quick to deflect from the main point. One can read the MP s website and get current information on what transpired in those meetings that our
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Aug 6, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Fr.John is quick to deflect from the main point.

                                      One can read the MP's website and get current information on what
                                      transpired in those meetings that our ROCOR(L) is afraid to tell us
                                      on their website.

                                      Michael N


                                      Michael Nikitin wrote:

                                      > This official information is always put out by the MP first on their
                                      > site. That is where the real information is to be found on what
                                      transpired.
                                      >
                                      > Maybe they're on the new calendar?

                                      JRS: If by "they" you refer to the MP, you can easily see that the
                                      Moscow Patriarchate is on the old calendar, by noting the dates given
                                      for various church holidays.

                                      Also note that the Russian word "glasnost'" has no "T" in the middle:
                                      it comes from "glas" or "golos", meaning "voice".

                                      In Christ
                                      Fr. John R. Shaw



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