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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Communication [was Our Church Has Spoken]

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  • Gene T
    Dear Father Stefan, Thank you for answering my post. An answer from an Archpriest doesn t happend every day. I am trully humbled. Serious. But. Two paragraphs
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 24, 2004
      Dear Father Stefan,

      Thank you for answering my post. An answer from an Archpriest doesn't happend every day. I am trully humbled. Serious. But. Two paragraphs from Archimandrite Luke is not really information, it is more of a negotiation press release template with no almost no details attached. Below I will just replace names in his text. Almost nothing will change.
      =============================================================
      There were absolutely no attempts made to smooth over or black out the complicated matters of the relationship between the China and the West, including Opium Trade, Taiwan and other vital, burning questions.

      The West frankly expressed its position on the matters in question, and in a general sense often reached a common opinion with China. Still, there were difficult areas which need mutual understanding from both. Of course China and the West did not cover all the difficult topics during these negotiations. It is necessary to take into consideration the life experience of our Countries
      =============================================================
      I would like to see just a little flesh on these bare bones. Less bromides so to speak. What about "other vital, burning questions" for instance ?

      Respectfully
      Gene T


      Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:
      "The reality is that there is no information available at all on what
      is being negotiated and what is the current state of negotiations."
      Gene T. (who is this?)
      __________________________________
      "The reality"

      I wish to share my personal impressions of the Committees' work.

      There were absolutely no attempts made to smooth over or black out the
      complicated matters of the relationship between the Russian Orthodox
      Church
      Outside of Russia and the Moscow Patriarchate, including Sergianism,
      ecumenism and other vital, burning questions.

      The Committee of the Moscow Patriarchate frankly expressed its
      position on the matters in question, and in a general sense we often
      reached a common opinion. Still, there were difficult areas which need
      mutual understanding both on our part and on theirs. Of course, we did
      not cover all the difficult topics during these negotiations. It is
      necessary to take into consideration the life experience of our Churches.
      Report by Archimandrite Luke (Murianka)
      __________________________________________Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko


      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Gene T <gene703@y...> wrote:
      > The reality is that there is no information available at all on what
      is being negotiated and what is the current state of negotiations.
      Reminds me of Churchill's famous comparison of Politburo rivals to
      bulldogs fighting under a carpet. Please someone tell me I am wrong
      and been looking for the info in all the wrong places.
      >
      > Gene T
      >
      > szmyte <szmyte@a...> wrote:
      > > I will be posting this:
      >
      > I thought this was strange. Despite Fr. Pavlenko's promise, he
      > must have forgotten to post it.
      >
      > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "szmyte" <szmyte@a...> wrote:
      > >
      > > > And, unfortunately, I still think this "need to know basis"
      > > > mentality seems like a Communist communication strategy where the
      > > > party leaders proposed and unanimously agreed and the same was
      > > > expected from the ruled class.
      > > > In Christ,
      > > > Eric (Thomas) Szmyt
      > > > Holy Virgin Protection Cathedral
      > > > Des Plaines, IL
      > >
      > > Eric (Thomas) Szmyt continues to allude that our Church Abroad
      > > Bishops are in some way tainted with "a Communist communication
      > > strategy".
      >
      > Actually, I was addressing Fr. Boldewskul's contention that the
      > laity doesn't need to know about the decision-making process for
      > this issue and should concern itself with personal aspects of church
      > life. Unfortunately someone mentioned something along the line
      > regarding having a better `communication strategy' and I must
      > have borrowed these words for my point. Saying that a concept I
      > inferred from a priest's words "seems" or "is
      > like" something
      > Communist does NOT make an accusation of the Church Bishops.
      > And IF that direct accusation were to be made by someone�
      > what does that mean for someone to be a Russian Communist now,
      > anyway? Most of the priests on the list no longer believe that
      > Communism or godlessness exists in Russia as an institution, so the
      > accusation would be fairly ambiguous in a moral sense� much like
      > saying someone is a Republican.
      >
      > > This is disgraceful, disrespectful and unbecoming a parish
      > > member "in good standing" that I assume Mr. Szmyt claims to be by
      > > signing "Holy Virgin Protection Cathedral, Des Plaines, IL" along
      > > with his name.
      >
      > Maybe it would be if you believed the false premise that I was
      > directing an attack at the Bishops and making insinuations with the
      > word `communist', which is not the case! (see above) As
      > regards the signing of my name to include my church's name�I
      > do this only as a habit and courtesy to others so that there is no
      > question as to who I am. I believe this is a rule on some of the
      > lists - to identify the church at which you receive the Sacraments.
      > Some posts in the past have been suspected of being from entities in
      > disguise or of unknown disposition. I didn't give a second
      > thought to adding this or needing a disclaimer for it. If the
      > preference here is to sign without it, removing it is not a problem
      > for me at all.
      >
      > > Our Bishops are not engaged in "Communist Strategy" they are indeed
      > > dedicated to the "Good estate of the holy churches of God, and the
      > > union of all,..." as we all are daily led to understand in prayer by
      > > our Holy Orthodox Church.
      > >
      > > In fact it is their God ordained duty to work out the means by which
      > > the shattered POMESTNAYA ROSSISKAYA TSERKOV (Local Church of Russia)
      > > may once again be healed and whole.
      > >
      > > We judge those in bloody and brutal Soviet conditions who may have
      > > dared think that their personal actions could do anything to "SAVE
      > > THE CHURCH" (we call their attempts, all be they mistaken, to keep
      > > Churches open for services, sacraments and needs--Sergianism) and
      > > yet we now make accusations and raise suspicions against our Synod
      > > Heirarchs in a proud and bold attempt to SAVE THE CHURCH
      > > OURSELVES!
      >
      > I am not sure what my so-called accusation of the Synod Bishops is
      > exactly. I `have' questioned why we need unity or
      > concelebration with the MP, and was hoping for an answer that makes
      > sense. What I got were explanations about how many people are
      > falling away from the church and Orthodoxy and that concelebration
      > with MP will help. I don't think it would be a stretch to
      > translate that point of view as "seeking out a relationship with
      > the MP in order to `Save our Church.'" I am not making such
      > a
      > proud and bold attempt to do that, rather voicing my honest opinion
      > for retaining our pre-existing position and working on ROCOR internal
      > issues.
      > Fr. Shaw has pointed out various instances where ROCOR has tried to
      > protect relationships with other Orthodox groups� attempts that
      > brought forth sour fruit. Given everything our Synod (historically)
      > and some Bishops, priests and laity (currently) have said about the
      > MP, it is surprising to think we are willing to take on this level of
      > risk (not only of rumored schism, but the potentially rotten fruit
      > the union will yield us).
      >
      > > I wonder instead of >>>saving the Local Russian Church<<<, does
      > > Mr.Eric (Thomas) Szmyt support "Holy Virgin Protection Cathedral,
      > > Des Plaines, IL" by being a dues paying member, or is he just
      > > riding the coat tails of a church he visits.
      >
      > Again, I am not using any pretense of >>>saving the Local Russian
      > Church<<< . And, I don't feel I owe any details here either to
      > feel guilty for not giving more or to become proud for what support I
      > have given, but I will say that I am not ashamed by any stretch of
      > the imagination by my and my family's contributions (in various
      > ways) to our local church. I'm not sure of the exact accusation
      > here.
      > From various sources we hear cries of how many are falling away from
      > church and Orthodoxy altogether, and on the other hand criticism is
      > directed at consistent churchgoers (despite any past issues) who have
      > sacrificed time, money and sleep for their church.
      >
      > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
      >
      > In Christ,
      > Eric (Thomas) Szmyt
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Gene T
      Father Victor, You have summed up very nicely everything that is available on the internet as of now. But there have been major development last two months -
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 24, 2004
        Father Victor,

        You have summed up very nicely everything that is available on the internet as of now. But there have been major development last two months
        - Most Rev. Metropolitan Laurus went to Moscow.
        - Joint Committee met for the first time in Moscow June 22-24.
        - The Synod of Bishops met on July 01-05 in SF and heard a report from His Eminence Archbishop Mark of Berlin and Germany, chairman of the ROCOR Committee on discussions with the Moscow Patriarchate, and Protopriest Alexander Lebedeff, secretary of the Committee, on the joint working meetings with the corresponding Committee of the Moscow Patriarchate.

        Everything in Archimandrite Luke report and Your post could be said 3 month ago. In DC they call it stonewalling. You can often see it on C-SPAN with politicians refusing to answer direct questions but still being polite by repeating their version/denial several times untill the questioner gives up. See what I mean ?

        Respectfully
        Gene T

        frvboldewskul@... wrote:
        In a message dated 7/24/04 8:40:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
        gene703@... writes:

        > The reality is that there is no information available at all on what is
        > being negotiated and what is the current state of negotiations. Reminds me of
        > Churchill���s famous comparison of Politburo rivals to bulldogs fighting under a
        > carpet. Please someone tell me I am wrong and been looking for the info in
        > all the wrong places.
        >
        > Gene T
        >

        Dear Gene,
        You are wrong.
        What is being negotiated: a resolution on: Church/state relations (i.e.
        sergianism), relations with non-Orthodox (ecumenism), and the autonomous status of
        ROCOR. See the joint statement of our delegation and the MP on the Synod
        website and the MP website.

        As to the state of negations, see that latest statement from our Synod (which
        I posted with the subject heading "Our Church Has Spoken") and also the
        report of Archimandrite Luke which was posted on the list a few days ago, and is
        also on the Synod website. As Archimandrite Luke noted (and he is a member of
        the commission), the commissions work is not done, hence no more details on
        that. Believe me, if the commission is successful in its work, and the respective
        Sobors are able to examine them, I am sure in time the full finished
        statements will be published. There is no finish text yet. The commissions are still
        meeting, they are still working, they are not done. This is a work in progress.
        The questions which are being addressed have been posted time and time again:
        sergianism, ecumenism and the autonomous status of ROCOR. These are serious
        issues which have divided the Russian Church Abroad with the Moscow
        Patriarchate, and as Archimandrite Luke noted, are being treated very seriously by both
        sides in the discussions.

        In Christ,
        Priest Victor Boldewskul


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      • frvboldewskul@aol.com
        In a message dated 7/25/04 2:42:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... How could it have been said three months ago when the commissions only met at the end of June,
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 25, 2004
          In a message dated 7/25/04 2:42:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
          gene703@... writes:

          > Everything in Archimandrite Luke report and Your post could be said 3 month
          > ago

          How could it have been said three months ago when the commissions only met at
          the end of June, less than a month ago?
          In Christ,
          Priest Victor Boldewskul


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • frvboldewskul@aol.com
          In a message dated 7/25/04 2:42:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... Then what is the question? You have just summarized all the latest events. In Christ, Priest
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 25, 2004
            In a message dated 7/25/04 2:42:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
            gene703@... writes:

            > Father Victor,
            >
            > You have summed up very nicely everything that is available on the internet
            > as of now. But there have been major development last two months
            > - Most Rev. Metropolitan Laurus went to Moscow.
            > - Joint Committee met for the first time in Moscow June 22-24.
            > - The Synod of Bishops met on July 01-05 in SF and heard a report from His
            > Eminence Archbishop Mark of Berlin and Germany, chairman of the ROCOR
            > Committee on discussions with the Moscow Patriarchate, and Protopriest Alexander
            > Lebedeff, secretary of the Committee, on the joint working meetings with the
            > corresponding Committee of the Moscow Patriarchate.
            >
            >

            Then what is the question? You have just summarized all the latest events.

            In Christ,
            Priest Victor Boldewskul


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