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Re: "Friends"? ...Moderator? Analogies

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  • DDD
    ... I d say it s probably the wrong analogy. It seems more to me like five children from the same family, three sisters who got kidnapped and two brothers
    Message 1 of 2 , Jun 30, 2004
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      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "goossir" <irene.goossens@c...> wrote:
      > Dear Dimitra,
      >
      > What would you say about children of divorced parents who painfully
      > try to put them back together, are they unfriendly or loving?

      I'd say it's probably the wrong analogy. It seems more to me like five children from the same family, three sisters who got kidnapped and two brothers who ran away, crossed the border, and stayed free. The kidnapper said to the captured girls, "I will kill your parents if you don't do what I say."
      One girl told the kidnapper off and immediately got killed.
      The second girl ran, but was unable to cross the border, so lived constantly in hiding in fear of the kidnapper. She did not have to aid the kidnapper, but she could not help her sister, either, or ever see the light of day or any kind of normal life.
      The third girl was fearful for her parents and herself and helped the kidnapper by pretending to be free and not telling on her kidnapper. Her heart ached that she walked among people and they thought she was free, but really she wasn't. She even saw her brothers sometimes from a distance, but they would not speak to her. She tried to resist as best she could, but if she resisted too much, the the kidnapper would beat her. He also kept telling her all sorts of bad stories about her brothers who had run away and "abandoned" her, till she slowly began to believe him.
      Then one day the kidnapper had a heart attack and was too weak to keep the girl any more. The sister who was alive, but in hiding, was too afraid to come out of hiding and remained there, even though she didn't have to any more. The sister who had been in the kidnapper's clutches found she could go further and further away from the kidnapper without retribution. She began to think about trying to contact her brothers. By that time, she wasn't sure whether the stories the kidnapper had told her about her brothers were true or not, but she decided to try. Finally she wrote a letter to them, telling them about her experience, and asked to meet. She apologized a little bit for what she had done, but not profusely, because she thought it had been the only way she could have survived. She also still wasn't sure about her brothers who had abandoned her.
      One brother received her letter and was eager to meet his long-lost sister. He didn't like the fact that she had cooperated with the kidnapper and pretended to be free, but the kidnapper did seem to be out of commission, she did want to re-unite, and he loved her. He could tell that the kidnapper had been telling her lies about him, but he decided to respond and meet her and at least see if he could straighten her out as to why he, her brother, had done what he had done, hoping that eventually she would see that what she had been told was lies and hoping that they could live together again as one family.
      The other brother, like the sister in hiding, did not believe the kidnapper was really out of commission. He could not forgive his captured sister for living when his other sister had been braver and had been shot. He also wondered why she had not gone into hiding with the third sister. When he received the girl's letter, he was angry and distrustful. He wrote back to her and told her she had betrayed her sisters and that it would have been better had she been shot. He thought her meeting with him was just the kidnappers ploy to get him kidnapped, too. He refused to meet with her. He told her it was "too soon" and he would meet when she straightened out.
      Imagine how she felt. Which one do you think had more chance of straightening the sister out, and also healing her emotional trauma?

      -------

      It's only a story, not a perfect analogy, not one I want to get into arguments about, but it's certainly a possibility. I hope we all want all the sisters and brothers back together again, at any rate.
      ---------------------------------------

      As for "accepting" on this list people who constantly argue against ROCOR (especially against clergy....) it comes to mind that in the Scriptures there were two people who had an angel appear to them and tell them that something miraculous was going to happen. Both people questioned the Angel appearing to them, but one was punished by having his speech taken away until his son should be born and named, while the Other person was told that henceforth all generations shall call Her blessed. One questioned in an unaccepting way, while the other questioned, but only in an innocent way, because She really could not understand.

      That's the way I feel about negative ROCOR "questioners" -- there are questioners and there are questioners. Some should get their speech taken away for a while ;) and others may be quite well-intentioned.

      --Dimitra
    • goossir
      Dear Dimitra, Your comparing the actual MP with the frightened girl, not well informed about the brothers abroad is either pure innocence on your part or just
      Message 2 of 2 , Jul 2, 2004
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        Dear Dimitra,

        Your comparing the actual MP with the frightened girl, not well
        informed about the brothers abroad is either pure innocence on your
        part or just wilful blindness. Metr. Sergius was certainly
        frightened and misinformed, but not Alexis II – this is ludicrous!

        This morning, coming to the office I just thought: "why all these
        dialoguing, commissioning (which is the way of politicians and not of
        Christians) when everything could be so simple?

        I have another analogy in mind:. Imagine a good king escaping
        persecution in his country, and convinced to flee abroad with a
        couple of faithful. Many could not and were imprisoned by the
        enemy. The majority who remained loyal was persecuted and killed,
        some went into hiding. A few frightened, however, accepted under
        threat to collaborate with the enemy who rewarded them. Later on,
        the enemy was defeated.

        What would you then expect from those who collaborated just to save
        their lives?

        "Write a letter, telling (the king) about their experience, asking to
        meet and apologize a little bit for what they had done, but not
        profusely"; by saying that due to their "bold step" (i.e.
        cooperation) they kept the king's memory alive, or

        Run to him and beg to be pardoned and taken back with him?

        When you love your king and you know that you have failed him, you do
        not ask for meetings, dialogues, commissions, etc. You just go to
        him, kneel in front of him and ask with tears in your eyes that he
        takes you back.

        Don't you think so?

        And we can go on dreaming: the faithful, who fled with the King, in
        their turn, will kneel in front of those who have been weak, because
        no one knows how one would behave confronted with persecution.

        If the MP shows real contrition for their collaboration and
        association with evil powers, we will kneel in front of their podvig
        and humbly beg their prayers, for, then, they will be the best
        witnesses of Christ.

        This is what I call real and sincere unity in God.

        In Christ

        Irina Pahlen


        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, DDD <dimitradd@v...> wrote:
        > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "goossir"
        <irene.goossens@c...> wrote:
        > > Dear Dimitra,
        > >
        > > What would you say about children of divorced parents who
        painfully
        > > try to put them back together, are they unfriendly or loving?
        >
        > I'd say it's probably the wrong analogy. It seems more to
        me like five children from the same family, three sisters who got
        kidnapped and two brothers who ran away, crossed the border, and
        stayed free. The kidnapper said to the captured girls, "I will kill
        your parents if you don't do what I say."
        > One girl told the kidnapper off and immediately got killed.
        > The second girl ran, but was unable to cross the border, so
        lived constantly in hiding in fear of the kidnapper. She did not
        have to aid the kidnapper, but she could not help her sister, either,
        or ever see the light of day or any kind of normal life.
        > The third girl was fearful for her parents and herself and
        helped the kidnapper by pretending to be free and not telling on her
        kidnapper. Her heart ached that she walked among people and they
        thought she was free, but really she wasn't. She even saw her
        brothers sometimes from a distance, but they would not speak to her.
        She tried to resist as best she could, but if she resisted too much,
        the the kidnapper would beat her. He also kept telling her all sorts
        of bad stories about her brothers who had run away and "abandoned"
        her, till she slowly began to believe him.
        > Then one day the kidnapper had a heart attack and was too
        weak to keep the girl any more. The sister who was alive, but in
        hiding, was too afraid to come out of hiding and remained there, even
        though she didn't have to any more. The sister who had been in the
        kidnapper's clutches found she could go further and further away from
        the kidnapper without retribution. She began to think about trying
        to contact her brothers. By that time, she wasn't sure whether the
        stories the kidnapper had told her about her brothers were true or
        not, but she decided to try. Finally she wrote a letter to them,
        telling them about her experience, and asked to meet. She apologized
        a little bit for what she had done, but not profusely, because she
        thought it had been the only way she could have survived. She also
        still wasn't sure about her brothers who had abandoned her.
        > One brother received her letter and was eager to meet his
        long-lost sister. He didn't like the fact that she had cooperated
        with the kidnapper and pretended to be free, but the kidnapper did
        seem to be out of commission, she did want to re-unite, and he loved
        her. He could tell that the kidnapper had been telling her lies
        about him, but he decided to respond and meet her and at least see if
        he could straighten her out as to why he, her brother, had done what
        he had done, hoping that eventually she would see that what she had
        been told was lies and hoping that they could live together again as
        one family.
        > The other brother, like the sister in hiding, did not believe
        the kidnapper was really out of commission. He could not forgive his
        captured sister for living when his other sister had been braver and
        had been shot. He also wondered why she had not gone into hiding
        with the third sister. When he received the girl's letter, he was
        angry and distrustful. He wrote back to her and told her she had
        betrayed her sisters and that it would have been better had she been
        shot. He thought her meeting with him was just the kidnappers ploy
        to get him kidnapped, too. He refused to meet with her. He told her
        it was "too soon" and he would meet when she straightened out.
        > Imagine how she felt. Which one do you think had more chance
        of straightening the sister out, and also healing her emotional
        trauma?
        >
        > -------
        >
        > It's only a story, not a perfect analogy, not one I want to get
        into arguments about, but it's certainly a possibility. I hope we
        all want all the sisters and brothers back together again, at any
        rate.
        > ---------------------------------------
        >
        > As for "accepting" on this list people who constantly argue against
        ROCOR (especially against clergy....) it comes to mind that in the
        Scriptures there were two people who had an angel appear to them and
        tell them that something miraculous was going to happen. Both people
        questioned the Angel appearing to them, but one was punished by
        having his speech taken away until his son should be born and named,
        while the Other person was told that henceforth all generations shall
        call Her blessed. One questioned in an unaccepting way, while the
        other questioned, but only in an innocent way, because She really
        could not understand.
        >
        > That's the way I feel about negative ROCOR "questioners" --
        there are questioners and there are questioners. Some should get
        their speech taken away for a while ;) and others may be quite well-
        intentioned.
        >
        > --Dimitra
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