Re: "Friends"? ...Moderator?
- Dear Dimitra,
What would you say about children of divorced parents who painfully
try to put them back together, are they unfriendly or loving?
If they find that one parent was unfair and unfaithful to the other
and try to soften the hardness of that parent so that reconciliation
takes place, would you say it is unfriendly, that they do not belong
to the family and ask those children to go away and mend their sorrow
with the parent that they feels was mistreated?
Is this the Christian way? Christ did asked the shepherd who sees
one sheep going astray from his herd to leave the herd behind and
bring back the lost sheep.
The people who stayed with Vl Vitaly are the children of a broken
family because some members of that family, instead of trying to mend
the rift between them, try to unite now (at the beginning of the rift
they were saying that this unity is not on the agenda) with the MP
whose legitimacy is put into question by many in the ROCOR.
The prince of division grasped us in our heart. Why not try to
defeat him, instead of going on pleasing him?
With the hope that you will still accept us
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, DDD <dimitradd@v...> wrote:
> I'm glad Athanasios brought this up. I was about to propose
someone start a separate list for "arguers against ROCOR" and leave
this list for ROCOR members only. One can't so much as make a
statement but it gets attacked by non-ROCOR people, which defeats the
purpose of a list where ROCOR people can get together and discuss
things in an amicable way.
> However, that said, I do not believe people who are in schism
from ROCOR should be banned -- IF they have a positive attitude
towards ROCOR or want to ask some sincere (not leading, not
> I do ***not** think people who have their minds made up to
constantly attack ROCOR and argue continuously with both ROCOR laity
and (especially) clergy should be on a group labeled for
***friends*** of ROCOR.
> Let's define ROCOR, first of all, as what it is: The
Russian Orthodox Church Abroad headed by its rightfully-elected
metropolitan, Metr. Lavr. Anyone who has a problem with this
definition should either keep it to himself, if he wants to ask a
sincere question, or be banned from the list. There are people on
this list who belong to ROCiE or even ROAC, who call those
entities "ROCOR." They are not, and especially not by the definition
of this list. There are also people who occasionally appear here who
falsely pretend to be members of ROCOR but are not. That is plain
dishonest. Therefore these people cannot be called "members" or
even "friends" of ROCOR if they have a hostile attitude to Metr.
Lavr. A "maybe" attitude would be one thing, but not a constantly
> I was an outsider "friend" of ROCOR once and was glad for the
opportunity to ask some questions, the answers to which ultimately
led me back to re-joining ROCOR. I think that function is very
important. That is very different, however, from someone who gets
on this list not for the purpose of learning, but with the express
agenda of "dis-ing" (as my daughter would say) everything about
ROCOR, its God-ordained reverend bishops, and its policies.
> Let's really make this a list for FRIENDS.
> Dimitra Dwelley
> member AND friend of ROCOR
> Russian Orthodox Church of the Holy Epiphany
> Roslindale (Boston), MA
> On 29 Jun 2004 16:29:11 -0000, email@example.com wrote:
> From: "Athanasios Jayne" <athanasiosj@j...>
> Subject: Re: "Friends"? ...Moderator?
> Dear Paul (et al),
> If you read my post carefully, you will see that I never
> (let me repeat that) *never* suggested what you have
> ascribed to me. I have said twice now, but will for a third
> time say that as I understand what is written on the
> homepage of this group, it is a group for members of
> ROCOR, and "friends of ROCOR." In my considered opinion,
> gatherings of deposed and excommunicated persons who
> falsely call themselves The Russian Orthodox Church (in the
> form of ROCiE or ROAC, etc.) are by *definition* adversaries
> of ROCOR, whether they realize it or not, and whether they
> admit it or not, and I, for one, object to their presence here
> as incompatible with the group guidelines--whether I am
> heard or not. That is my opinion, and I encourage all who
> share it to make themselves known, publicly or in private.
> The final decision, of course, rests with Fr. Mark as our
- --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Paul O. BARTLETT"
> I can see some difficulty. One man's "schism" is another man'sas
> "faithfulness to Orthodoxy." To the latter, sticking to his guns,
> the expression goes, being faithful to Orthodoxy as he sees it,may in
> his eyes be "follow[ing] the Will of Christ and be[ing] a memberof His
> body." Was it St. Mark of Ephesus (my memory is a little hazy) whothe
> rejected the so-called Union of Florence and said that even if the
> whole world went along, he would remain faithful to Orthodoxy? In
> eyes of some, he was probably considered a schismatic. (And I getthe
> idea that there are at least some in Russia who consider ROCORdrawing and
> schismatic.) Just where do we draw lines, and who does the
> how?The drawing of lines must be in all humility of mind and mistrust of
> Paul Bartlett
> bartlett "at" smart "dot" net
> PGP key info in message headers
oneself. We have those we are to show honour & obedience to. We have
spiritual fathers (hopefully) whom we can ask advice from and be
guided by. We also need to have daily spiritual reading. Then of
course there is our own spiritual life grounded in the above and a
sacramental life. All of this helps us to discern the proper course
without becoming arbitrary & subjective.
You ask about St Mark of Ephesus & the Union of Florence. I think
discernment is what is needed. We should not be asking "how can I be
like St Mark of Ephesus?" We should be asking, "what is Christ's
will for the present situation?" Then I think we can see that our
bishops are not trying to lead us to deny our Faith. Perhaps what
they are leading us to will actually lead us to increase our faith
in Christ all the more.
In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack