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Re: [orthodox-synod] Digest Number 1279

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  • DDD
    I could be wrong, but it seems that any ROCOR parish that is actively doing missionary work would not suspend it while awaiting news of union or no union.
    Message 1 of 6 , Jun 1, 2004
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      I could be wrong, but it seems that any ROCOR parish that is actively doing "missionary work" would not suspend it while awaiting news of union or no union. The nearby English-speaking ROCOR parish to us, for example, I don't think is doing anything at all differently than it always has.
      Or do you mean, will English missions get lost *after* a union with MP? Don't know, but looks like MP is pretty successfully missionizing in English-speaking England!
      Your questions are one reason I am very interested in knowing more about St. Tikhon's work in America before the Revolution.

      --Dimitra

      On 2 Jun 2004 01:36:35 -0000, orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com wrote:
      In all this haste for
      unification (if that turns out to be "Orthodoxly" appropriate), does
      the mission of historic Orthodoxy -- and in North America of the
      Russian Church in particular -- to bring the Faith to the non-Orthodox
      risk getting lost? (See also my response to Anna Voellmecke for further
      remarks.)
    • DDD
      Metr. Lavr: But we do not prevent our flock to express their opinions on these events. Yet we hope that in time they will become convinced in these
      Message 2 of 6 , Jun 1, 2004
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        Metr. Lavr:

        " But we do not prevent our flock to express their opinions on these events. Yet we hope that in time they will become convinced in these fundamental changes and will remember that repentance can heal all old wounds."

        --DD


        Mother Agapia wrote: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com wrote:
             < It is certainly justifiable that at such a significant juncture in the
             < life
             < of the Russian Church all involved, both clergy and laity, be allowed to
             < offer critical commentary on the events now unfolding.
      • DDD
        Anna, I m just wondering what your question really is? Are you afraid that, if reconciliation occurs, American converts will be expected to pack up and go to
        Message 3 of 6 , Jun 1, 2004
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          Anna, I'm just wondering what your question really is? Are you afraid that, if reconciliation occurs, American converts will be expected to pack up and go to Russia? From what I've seen written so far, the Church Abroad seems pretty intent on keeping some kind of status quo or autonomy, and, maybe I just haven't seen it, but MP doesn't seem against that.
          Besides, before the Revolution the Russian (very Russian, non-diaspora) Orthodox Church was doing active missionary work in America under St. Patriarch (then Abp.) Tikhon. So why shouldn't it continue that?
          All these comments are only on the convert situation, not for or against union with MP.

          --Dimitra

          On 2 Jun 2004 01:36:35 -0000, orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com wrote:
          No other "ethnic" Church has done what ROCOR has in its outreach to
          converts.Very few parishioners of ROCOR churches intend to go to Russia.
          "Diaspora" in our situation means "spread all over" or "outside Russia,"
          *not* "the place we go home to."

          Anna V.
        • Anna Voellmecke
          ... I guess you have not followed this thread. I had no question at all. I was responding to Paul Bartlett, reminding him that the rapproachment between the MP
          Message 4 of 6 , Jun 2, 2004
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            At 01:50 AM 6/2/2004, you wrote:
            > Anna, I'm just wondering what your question really is?

            I guess you have not followed this thread. I had no question at all. I was
            responding to Paul Bartlett, reminding him that the rapproachment between
            the MP and the ROCOR is important to all those in the Russian Church, both
            converts and Russian ethnics, as well as to Orthodoxy as a whole.

            Anna V.
          • vkozyreff
            Dear Dimitra, You write : All the ones I can think of left ROCOR of their own accord. Even in the case of France (where they voluntarily chose not to go to
            Message 5 of 6 , Jun 2, 2004
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              Dear Dimitra,

              You write : " All the ones I can think of left ROCOR of their own
              accord. Even in the case of France (where they voluntarily chose not
              to go to the meeting of bishops) and the Russian ROCOR bishops,
              wasn't it suspension and then later defrocking? That is something
              different from excommunication. What "mass excommunication" do you
              have in mind here, and does anyone from ROCOR care to comment?".

              VK:

              Can you think of me? I did not leave, I did not leave of my own
              accord, and I have constantly advocated reconciliation on this forum.
              This has been discussed many times on this forum. We know that we
              have different views, and I am convinced of your good faith. Please
              give me credit for my good faith as well. Just repeating again and
              again the same statements is useless, we return constantly to square
              1 of the discussion.

              Again, last Sunday, some of us met with our ROCOR(L) friends at the
              occasion of a marriage. Our ROCOR(L) friends repeated stubbornly that
              we were wrong because we "did not obey the bishop".

              Again and again, nobody disputes the principle, the question is about
              exceptions, when the bishop and the conscience come in opposition.
              The canons do provide for exceptions. What is astonishing, is that
              our ROCOR(L) friends did not even know this, and that personal
              enmities do play an awful role. Many of our ROCOR(L) friends are
              still convinced that there will be no union with the MP, and know
              nothing about the latest events.

              In God,

              Vladimir Kozyreff


              See, for instance: Message 8448

              The New Russian Martyr Metropolitan Cyril of Kazan wrote in
              1929: "church discipline can remain valid only as long as it is an
              actual reflection of the hierarchical conscience of the conciliar
              Church; discipline can never itself replace this conscience...

              The Church is not the hierarchs. The Church is the assembly of
              hierarchs, priests and believers. To appoint bishops without taking
              conciliarity into account or proceeding to mass excommunications is
              not conciliarity and is contrary to Church discipline. Believers are
              nothing without their bishops, bishops are nothing without the
              believers. The Orthodox Church is not a papist organisation.

              Message 7329

              … the synod has judged, condemned and proceeded to a mass exclusion
              that is a mutilation of our dear Church. I think that it might have
              been avoided and that it comes from the fact that the question has
              been managed as a purely disciplinary one.

              Message 8430

              As was already discussed, they had been summoned to Munich (at very
              short notice), but had not been advised that they would appear before
              an ecclesial tribunal to be judged. They had not been informed about
              the composition of a court that would judge them. If a regular
              judgement had taken place, the accused clerics might have use their
              right to challenge the judges («11.) The accused bishop or cleric
              has, at all judicial levels, the right to challenge the judges, of
              which he must inform the President no later than two weeks after
              receiving the summons to court»).



              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, DDD <dimitradd@v...> wrote:
              > All the ones I can think of left ROCOR of their own accord. Even
              in the case of France (where they voluntarily chose not to go to the
              meeting of bishops) and the Russian ROCOR bishops, wasn't it
              suspension and then later defrocking? That is something different
              from excommunication. What "mass excommunication" do you have in
              mind here, and does anyone from ROCOR care to comment?
              >
              > --Dimitra
              >
              > On 2 Jun 2004 01:36:35 -0000, orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com wrote:
              > It is the anti-MP "extremists" who have been
              > subjected to mass excommunication.
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