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Russian emigres [was: ROCA - MP UNIFICATION PROCESS UNDERWAY

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  • Fr. John R. Shaw
    ... JRS: However, I think you are mistaken in saying that any Russian emigre knows, or holds, to these things. Or else, by Russian emigre , you may have
    Message 1 of 5 , May 30, 2004
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      Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:

      > Any Russian émigré has positioned himself relative to Russia, to the
      > country where he is staying, and to the faith. He knows why he is
      > living abroad and why he arrived there. He knows whether the reasons
      > why he is living abroad have disappeared or not. He knows whether he
      > is orthodox or is not, and whether he belongs to the
      > Evlogian "church", to the ROCOR or to the MP.

      JRS: However, I think you are mistaken in saying that "any" Russian
      emigre knows, or holds, to these things. Or else, by "Russian emigre",
      you may have only a very special type of emigre in mind.

      Thus for example when I was a boy, in my high school, there were two
      students who were the children of Russian emigres: one Dimitri
      Feodorovitch Rimsky, and Angela (Georgievna) Krymsky.

      Dimitri's father, Feodor Rimsky, was a Russian emigre artist. He was
      born in St. Petersburg, but had been raised in France, and spoke hardly
      any Russian -- only French and English, but both of them with a Russian
      accent.

      Mr. Rimsky was Russian Orthodox, and was one of the thousands of people
      who sometimes, very rarely, would go into New York City and attend the
      Synodal cathedral on 93rd St. But mostly, he and his family attended
      the local Episcopal (Anglican) church in their town.

      As a result, Dimitri Feodorovitch really knew little about the Orthodox
      Church (even though I think he had been baptized in it).

      Angela was the daughter of George Krymsky, who was of Russian emigre
      background also, but he did not raise her in the Orthodox Church.
      Angela was brought up as a Roman Catholic.

      These are extremely typical stories for Russian emigres, both in
      America and in other countries.

      But many, even of those Russian emigres who strongly identify with the
      Orthodox Church and who attend services every Sunday, may go
      indiscriminately to the Church Abroad, to the OCA, or the Moscow
      Patriarchate, even the Ukrainian and Belorussian churches.

      If they are angry with the church they have been attending, they may
      switch to one that belongs to another jurisdiction, provided it suits
      them as a parish.

      So, it may be that you have a special definition of "Russian emigre".

      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw
    • vkozyreff
      Dear Father John, bless. Thank you for your example. It is hard to win with you. I think that, if you search a little, you will even find examples of Jews who
      Message 2 of 5 , May 30, 2004
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        Dear Father John, bless.

        Thank you for your example. It is hard to win with you. I think
        that, if you search a little, you will even find examples of Jews
        who know little about their identity. They would however not be
        typical and would, in scientific terms, called "anecdotic" cases.

        I suppose it would be harder for you to find examples of Russian
        émigrés returning to Russia and being in the same ignorance as your
        childhood friends about who they are.

        In general, I confess that I tend to call "Russian émigrés"
        the "first wave" (which might be the second in reality). I include
        parents, children and now grand children. I know very few members of
        the second wave (simple soviet people who were trapped between the
        German lines in WW II, who did not chose to emigrate and whose
        emigration has no spiritual meaning). I know very few
        representatives of the "third wave" (the "dissidents"), who indeed,
        are of a totally different kind (I know V. Bukovsky, however).


        We have quite a few people in our parish, who emigrated during the
        last 10 years, including Georgians for instance. They know
        everything about the Church. (I do not even mention the "new
        Russians", those who wear enormous crosses on their chest, with or
        without that "sportsman" on it).

        I think everybody agrees that Russians in the emigration (at least
        the "first wave") are relatively well aware about the history of the
        revolution, of the Bolshevik persecutions and of the emigration.
        Some recall very tragic and painful family dramas.

        As we know, many parents wished their children to become "native" of
        their "new homeland", because they did not wish their children to
        feel exiles for ever. This policy had mixed success about the memory
        however.

        Regarding those who converted to some other kind of "Christian"
        faith, they positioned themselves relative to the faith indeed.

        Viatcheslav (message 11046) wonders how old a baron I am, since I
        am speaking about "returning". He means, I guess, that since I was
        not born in Russia, I cannot "return".

        The western civilisation is uniquely individualistic, and does not
        know much about collective or inter generational common identity. A
        Palestinian however would speak about his right to "return", even if
        he was not born in Palestine, Jews "returned " to the holy land even
        if they were not born in Palestine, Crimean Tatars "returned" to
        Crimea even if they were not born in Crimea, and Russians "return"
        to Russia even if they were not born in Russia. The very
        term "Russian" implies a common identity that spreads over
        individuals and generations. We can say "we, Russians". There is
        even, in the history of mankind the notion of a "chosen people".

        Things in the West have gone so far, that psychoanalysts, who know
        perfectly well that my grandfather is present in myself and dictates
        some of my most intimate thoughts and deeds, would suggest to "cure"
        me by "liberating" me from those "external" influences, but would
        not guarantee total success in this endeavour.

        Regarding his experience of not meeting any single other foreigner
        (or anyone from abroad) when visiting a ROCOR parish in Russia, I
        had a similar experience. I was taken to this parish by a local
        Russian colleague who knew about the existence of ROCOR, even though
        he was a member of a MP parish. He had guessed I had something to do
        with the ROCOR.

        In God,

        Vladimir Kozyreff


        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
        <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
        > Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
        >
        > > Any Russian émigré has positioned himself relative to Russia, to
        the
        > > country where he is staying, and to the faith. He knows why he
        is
        > > living abroad and why he arrived there. He knows whether the
        reasons
        > > why he is living abroad have disappeared or not. He knows
        whether he
        > > is orthodox or is not, and whether he belongs to the
        > > Evlogian "church", to the ROCOR or to the MP.
        >
        > JRS: However, I think you are mistaken in saying that "any"
        Russian
        > emigre knows, or holds, to these things. Or else, by "Russian
        emigre",
        > you may have only a very special type of emigre in mind.
        >
        > Thus for example when I was a boy, in my high school, there were
        two
        > students who were the children of Russian emigres: one Dimitri
        > Feodorovitch Rimsky, and Angela (Georgievna) Krymsky.
        >
        > Dimitri's father, Feodor Rimsky, was a Russian emigre artist. He
        was
        > born in St. Petersburg, but had been raised in France, and spoke
        hardly
        > any Russian -- only French and English, but both of them with a
        Russian
        > accent.
        >
        > Mr. Rimsky was Russian Orthodox, and was one of the thousands of
        people
        > who sometimes, very rarely, would go into New York City and attend
        the
        > Synodal cathedral on 93rd St. But mostly, he and his family
        attended
        > the local Episcopal (Anglican) church in their town.
        >
        > As a result, Dimitri Feodorovitch really knew little about the
        Orthodox
        > Church (even though I think he had been baptized in it).
        >
        > Angela was the daughter of George Krymsky, who was of Russian
        emigre
        > background also, but he did not raise her in the Orthodox Church.
        > Angela was brought up as a Roman Catholic.
        >
        > These are extremely typical stories for Russian emigres, both in
        > America and in other countries.
        >
        > But many, even of those Russian emigres who strongly identify with
        the
        > Orthodox Church and who attend services every Sunday, may go
        > indiscriminately to the Church Abroad, to the OCA, or the Moscow
        > Patriarchate, even the Ukrainian and Belorussian churches.
        >
        > If they are angry with the church they have been attending, they
        may
        > switch to one that belongs to another jurisdiction, provided it
        suits
        > them as a parish.
        >
        > So, it may be that you have a special definition of "Russian
        emigre".
        >
        > In Christ
        > Fr. John R. Shaw
      • Fr. John R. Shaw
        ... JRS: Alas, I only wish the cases I quoted had been atypical . I am afraid that virtually any priest of any older Russian parish abroad will tell you soon
        Message 3 of 5 , May 31, 2004
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          Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:

          > Thank you for your example. It is hard to win with you. I think
          > that, if you search a little, you will even find examples of Jews
          > who know little about their identity. They would however not be
          > typical and would, in scientific terms, called "anecdotic" cases.

          JRS: Alas, I only wish the cases I quoted had been "atypical".

          I am afraid that virtually any priest of any older Russian parish
          abroad will tell you soon enough that such cases as I gave, are all too
          typical.

          In fact, they probably are typical of the majority.

          That is why so many of our parishes have either died out, or else, if
          they now have a new lease on life, that is because of the huge new
          influx of people from Russia.

          > In general, I confess that I tend to call "Russian émigrés"
          > the "first wave" (which might be the second in reality).

          JRS: It all depends on where you start counting.

          I have known people who emigrated to America before the revolution; for
          example, the late psalomschik of our cathedral in Chicago, Klimenty
          Vasilievitch Lysenko, had come to America in 1916. I also knew his son
          and grandson.

          The Archimandrites Panteleimon (Nizhnik) and Joseph (Kolos) of
          Jordanville, both of whom I was blest to have known, moved to America
          before World War I.

          We have a lady who sings in our choir, whose grandmother came to
          America from Kiev in the 19th century.

          In New Jersey, there is even a collateral descendant of Pyotr Ilyitch
          Tchaikovsky (descended from the composer's brother, I believe) named
          John Tchaikovsky (but he spells it differently), who "carries on the
          family tradition".

          But such people are now a great rarity.

          > I include
          > parents, children and now grand children. I know very few members of
          > the second wave (simple soviet people who were trapped between the
          > German lines in WW II, who did not chose to emigrate and whose
          > emigration has no spiritual meaning).

          JRS: Yet this group of people seems to have made up the majority of
          ROCOR parishioners, prior to the recent wave of new immigration. Most
          of the (ethnic Russian) ROCOR churches in the United States were built
          by the post-W.W. II emigres.

          > I think everybody agrees that Russians in the emigration (at least
          > the "first wave") are relatively well aware about the history of the
          > revolution, of the Bolshevik persecutions and of the emigration.
          > Some recall very tragic and painful family dramas.

          JRS: The Russians of the "first wave" were people who left about the
          time of the revolution, or shortly after it.

          There are not many of them left: someone who was, for example, 20 years
          old in 1920, at the time of the evacuation of the White Army from the
          Crimea -- would now be 104!


          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw
        • Hristofor
          Dear Vladimir, I think that there is a bit of a disconnect in English usage, since I understand that when you say return to Russia that you are speaking in
          Message 4 of 5 , Jun 1, 2004
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            Dear Vladimir,

            I think that there is a bit of a disconnect in English usage, since I
            understand that when you say "return to Russia" that you are speaking in
            the spiritual/abstract sense, since you weren't born there. It may help
            if you state "move" when you refer to packing up your belongings and
            take residence in Russia, as opposed to "returning to your roots". I
            also know many people from Russia (including my own relatives there) who
            can't grasp the concept of the Return; this is also true of my wife's
            family in the former republics of Yugoslavia. Since the Western way of
            life is so empty and unfulfilling (despite the material richness), as
            emigres we grasp at idea of our ethnic homeland. Of course, for those
            living in the countries behind the former Iron Curtain, daily life
            hasn't improved much, so they can't imagine that anyone would want to
            return. Just my thoughts, not expressed very well.

            vkozyreff wrote:

            >I suppose it would be harder for you to find examples of Russian
            >émigrés returning to Russia and being in the same ignorance as your
            >childhood friends about who they are.
            >
            >
            I would agree that Rimsky and Krymsky's descendant would NOT be going to
            Russia to live.

            >In general, I confess that I tend to call "Russian émigrés"
            >the "first wave" (which might be the second in reality).
            >
            Most of us in the US consider the First Wave to be all those who arrived
            before the start of WW II, starting in the late 19th century.

            >I include
            >parents, children and now grand children. I know very few members of
            >the second wave (simple soviet people who were trapped between the
            >German lines in WW II, who did not chose to emigrate and whose
            >emigration has no spiritual meaning).
            >
            Disagree there. They built most of our churches. Metr. Vitaly spoke
            about his labours in the DP camps with the liberated Russians. Most of
            them were already baptised. I am sure that they would not agree with you
            at all.

            I think that the situation in Europe is opposite from that in the US:
            most of the noble families (with a few exceptions) tend to lean toward
            ROCOR, where as in Europe, they same to lean toward rue Daru. I have no
            scientific evidence on that, save perusals of Point de Vue, which alway
            seem to show Russian nobles at rue Daru events; never saw
            Claude-Lorraine even get a mention.
            The OCA, BTW, has its roots in those whom *I*mmigrated (for material
            reasons) from Western Russia and the Dual Monarchy before the Revolution
            even started, as opposed to those who left after 1917 and *Emigrated*
            (for religous and political reasons).

            I have been reading the list with great interest, since most of the
            assimilation that I know of has occurred with Russians in the OCA and
            not in ROCOR; it has been quite an eye-opener.

            hristofor

            >representatives of the "third wave" (the "dissidents"), who indeed,
            >are of a totally different kind (I know V. Bukovsky, however).
            >
            >
            >We have quite a few people in our parish, who emigrated during the
            >last 10 years, including Georgians for instance. They know
            >everything about the Church. (I do not even mention the "new
            >Russians", those who wear enormous crosses on their chest, with or
            >without that "sportsman" on it).
            >
            >I think everybody agrees that Russians in the emigration (at least
            >the "first wave") are relatively well aware about the history of the
            >revolution, of the Bolshevik persecutions and of the emigration.
            >Some recall very tragic and painful family dramas.
            >
            >As we know, many parents wished their children to become "native" of
            >their "new homeland", because they did not wish their children to
            >feel exiles for ever. This policy had mixed success about the memory
            >however.
            >
            >Regarding those who converted to some other kind of "Christian"
            >faith, they positioned themselves relative to the faith indeed.
            >
            >Viatcheslav (message 11046) wonders how old a baron I am, since I
            >am speaking about "returning". He means, I guess, that since I was
            >not born in Russia, I cannot "return".
            >
            >The western civilisation is uniquely individualistic, and does not
            >know much about collective or inter generational common identity. A
            >Palestinian however would speak about his right to "return", even if
            >he was not born in Palestine, Jews "returned " to the holy land even
            >if they were not born in Palestine, Crimean Tatars "returned" to
            >Crimea even if they were not born in Crimea, and Russians "return"
            >to Russia even if they were not born in Russia. The very
            >term "Russian" implies a common identity that spreads over
            >individuals and generations. We can say "we, Russians". There is
            >even, in the history of mankind the notion of a "chosen people".
            >
            >Things in the West have gone so far, that psychoanalysts, who know
            >perfectly well that my grandfather is present in myself and dictates
            >some of my most intimate thoughts and deeds, would suggest to "cure"
            >me by "liberating" me from those "external" influences, but would
            >not guarantee total success in this endeavour.
            >
            >Regarding his experience of not meeting any single other foreigner
            >(or anyone from abroad) when visiting a ROCOR parish in Russia, I
            >had a similar experience. I was taken to this parish by a local
            >Russian colleague who knew about the existence of ROCOR, even though
            >he was a member of a MP parish. He had guessed I had something to do
            >with the ROCOR.
            >
            >In God,
            >
            >Vladimir Kozyreff
            >
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • vkozyreff
            Dear Hristofor, It is good to talk with you. You write: I think that there is a bit of a disconnect in English usage, since I understand that when you say
            Message 5 of 5 , Jun 2, 2004
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              Dear Hristofor,

              It is good to talk with you.

              You write: "I think that there is a bit of a disconnect in English
              usage, since I understand that when you say "return to Russia" that
              you are speaking in the spiritual/abstract sense, since you weren't
              born there".

              VK: Let English usage alone. We talk about Russia. I maintain that
              I "returned", because indeed, Russia is spiritual. No other country
              is "holy" as Russia (the Holy Empire of the German nation is an
              usurpation linked to the roots of Latino Catholicism, and everybody
              knows it was holy only by name).

              "The absence of deep local roots and the overwhelming feeling of the
              uniformity of the Russian land and of the universal sameness of the
              social environment were undoubtedly among the important and
              permanent experiences of the Russian nobleman. They were also
              experiences acquired from childhood onwards and may go far towards
              explaining the nobleman's detachment from the soil and easy
              adaptability to the capitals and to foreign lands. They may also
              help to explain why the Russian nobleman often thought of his
              country, his nation, Russia in short, as a sort of compete entity, a
              general category, even an abstraction. This did not prevent him from
              feeling a strong attachment to her and even worshipping her
              emotionally. But his attachment lacked the concreteness and
              specificity of the attachment which the nobleman in the west
              possessed to a well-defined environment. While the nation was seen
              in the west as a union of many local loyalties, the comprehensive
              all-Russian loyalty had primacy in Russia both in fact and in
              feeling".

              http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/russia/lectures/14noblema
              n1.html

              Another example I might bring about "return" is that of the Volga
              Germans who "returned "(not "moved") to Germany after living in
              Russia for 3 centuries.

              You write: "I also know many people from Russia (including my own
              relatives there) who can't grasp the concept of the Return".

              VK: I know this perfectly well. Communism had undertaken to "de-
              spiritualise" the nation, and many have not resisted. That is why
              many understand only material reasons to leave or return to a
              country.

              There is a joke that goes like this: Taenia solium junior says to
              his father: "Dad, what do we do in this sh…? They say that around,
              there are fields filled with sun, flowers, fragance and birdsongs!
              Taenia solium senior replies: "I know, synok, but this is our
              Rodina!" Of course, this is typically Soviet and vulgar humour, but
              it does contain something moving. In fact, the love that Russians
              feel for Russia is not dependent on any "social contract" between
              the State and the people (which is the basis of democracy). It is
              unconditional.

              I think I mentioned previously in this forum that in the classic
              Russian literature, when a character left for America, this was a
              symbol of spiritual death. Many in present Russia still understand
              this.

              You write: "Most of us in the US consider the First Wave to be all
              those who arrived before the start of WW II, starting in the late
              19th century".

              VK: I agree with he usual numbering (in spite of Russian emigrating
              already before WW I). The children and grandchildren of the first
              wave however still belong to the same wave, because they are their
              heirs and are answerable as to what they do with the heritage.

              Again, this is the idea of "filiation", which is foreign to the
              West. I am the son of a member of the "first wave" (civil war) and
              thus belong to that wave, because I have received the duty to defend
              their honour.

              You write: "Disagree there. They built most of our churches. Metr.
              Vitaly spoke about his labours in the DP camps with the liberated
              Russians. Most of them were already baptised. I am sure that they
              would not agree with you at all".

              VK: I suppose those who emigrated to the US did so for reasons that
              make them statistically different from those who stayed in Europe.
              Here, they are mostly shy about their ancestry. They were, since
              their very first years abroad, actively mobilised by the KGB and MP,
              and usually avoided us. Some did come to the ROCOR only to leave
              later for cultural incompatibility.

              You write: "I think that the situation in Europe is opposite from
              that in the US: most of the noble families (with a few exceptions)
              tend to lean toward ROCOR, where as in Europe, they same to lean
              toward rue Daru. I have no scientific evidence on that, save
              perusals of Point de Vue, which always seem to show Russian nobles
              at rue Daru events; never saw Claude-Lorraine even get a mention".

              VK: « Point de Vue » is the most vulgar, cheap, would-be elegant
              publication for beauty saloons, intended for romantic, dreaming,
              poorly educated middle class young women, on Christian, Moslem or
              Jewish royalties and aristocracy, which discredits more than
              anything else those who have their photographs in it.

              The association with "Point de Vue" is not a valid reference or a
              way to demonstrate the nobility of the rue Daru congregation. Be
              reassured and informed that Claude Lorrain's congregation does have
              its share of glorious names. Their absence from "Point de Vue" is
              only to their honour. But what is glorious in the eyes of God?

              This reminds me of Sokurov's "the Russian Ark" in which the author
              attempts to express his nostalgia for the nobility. The only way he
              succeeds to show the nobility however is an endless ball in the
              winter palace. Even well wishing and well intended Soviet filmmakers
              do not yet understand that the glory of Russia which they want to
              find again was spiritual and that the glory of the nobility is in
              that it gave its blood for Russia, not that it went to balls.

              In Belgium, the MP and Evlogian parishes are socially more modest
              than the ROCOR's. The latter was sometimes viewed as some kind of
              aristocratic club. Our "Khram Pamiatnik" is full of military
              standards and mural tables reminding the (noble) names of those who
              served Russia well during the civil war. The MP will soon recover it
              all, unfortunately.

              The Brussels museum of military history, which is one of the
              greatest in the world, has a glorious exhibit dedicated to the
              Cossack Life Guard Regiment. I was among the founding members of an
              organisation which was established to take care of the Russian
              heritage in the EU.

              When I understood that the association was under strong Masonic and
              Communist influence (emigrated nomenklatura, university professors
              known as communist, museum masonic staff, etc.), I requested that
              the scientific committee should not include anybody that had shown
              any complacency or sympathy for communism. My proposal was rejected,
              and I quit. I explained that Imperial Russia was a Christian Empire,
              and that the spiritual meaning of her heritage could not be left to
              adulteration by the worst enemies of orthodoxy and by the organisers
              of the atheistic, antichristian revolution. Many Russian nobles (MP
              and ROCOR) remained in the organisation, however and described me as
              an extremist.

              As the Tsar sadly wrote in his diary on the day of his
              abdication: "All around me I see treason, cowardice and deceit."

              In God,

              Vladimir Kozyreff



              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Hristofor <hristofor@m...>
              wrote:
              > Dear Vladimir,
              >
              > I think that there is a bit of a disconnect in English usage,
              since I
              > understand that when you say "return to Russia" that you are
              speaking in
              > the spiritual/abstract sense, since you weren't born there. It may
              help
              > if you state "move" when you refer to packing up your belongings
              and
              > take residence in Russia, as opposed to "returning to your roots".
              I
              > also know many people from Russia (including my own relatives
              there) who
              > can't grasp the concept of the Return; this is also true of my
              wife's
              > family in the former republics of Yugoslavia. Since the Western
              way of
              > life is so empty and unfulfilling (despite the material richness),
              as
              > emigres we grasp at idea of our ethnic homeland. Of course, for
              those
              > living in the countries behind the former Iron Curtain, daily life
              > hasn't improved much, so they can't imagine that anyone would want
              to
              > return. Just my thoughts, not expressed very well.
              >
              > vkozyreff wrote:
              >
              > >I suppose it would be harder for you to find examples of Russian
              > >émigrés returning to Russia and being in the same ignorance as
              your
              > >childhood friends about who they are.
              > >
              > >
              > I would agree that Rimsky and Krymsky's descendant would NOT be
              going to
              > Russia to live.
              >
              > >In general, I confess that I tend to call "Russian émigrés"
              > >the "first wave" (which might be the second in reality).
              > >
              > Most of us in the US consider the First Wave to be all those who
              arrived
              > before the start of WW II, starting in the late 19th century.
              >
              > >I include
              > >parents, children and now grand children. I know very few members
              of
              > >the second wave (simple soviet people who were trapped between
              the
              > >German lines in WW II, who did not chose to emigrate and whose
              > >emigration has no spiritual meaning).
              > >
              > Disagree there. They built most of our churches. Metr. Vitaly
              spoke
              > about his labours in the DP camps with the liberated Russians.
              Most of
              > them were already baptised. I am sure that they would not agree
              with you
              > at all.
              >
              > I think that the situation in Europe is opposite from that in the
              US:
              > most of the noble families (with a few exceptions) tend to lean
              toward
              > ROCOR, where as in Europe, they same to lean toward rue Daru. I
              have no
              > scientific evidence on that, save perusals of Point de Vue, which
              alway
              > seem to show Russian nobles at rue Daru events; never saw
              > Claude-Lorraine even get a mention.
              > The OCA, BTW, has its roots in those whom *I*mmigrated (for
              material
              > reasons) from Western Russia and the Dual Monarchy before the
              Revolution
              > even started, as opposed to those who left after 1917 and
              *Emigrated*
              > (for religous and political reasons).
              >
              > I have been reading the list with great interest, since most of
              the
              > assimilation that I know of has occurred with Russians in the OCA
              and
              > not in ROCOR; it has been quite an eye-opener.
              >
              > hristofor
              >
              > >representatives of the "third wave" (the "dissidents"), who
              indeed,
              > >are of a totally different kind (I know V. Bukovsky, however).
              > >
              > >
              > >We have quite a few people in our parish, who emigrated during
              the
              > >last 10 years, including Georgians for instance. They know
              > >everything about the Church. (I do not even mention the "new
              > >Russians", those who wear enormous crosses on their chest, with
              or
              > >without that "sportsman" on it).
              > >
              > >I think everybody agrees that Russians in the emigration (at
              least
              > >the "first wave") are relatively well aware about the history of
              the
              > >revolution, of the Bolshevik persecutions and of the emigration.
              > >Some recall very tragic and painful family dramas.
              > >
              > >As we know, many parents wished their children to become "native"
              of
              > >their "new homeland", because they did not wish their children to
              > >feel exiles for ever. This policy had mixed success about the
              memory
              > >however.
              > >
              > >Regarding those who converted to some other kind of "Christian"
              > >faith, they positioned themselves relative to the faith indeed.
              > >
              > >Viatcheslav (message 11046) wonders how old a baron I am, since
              I
              > >am speaking about "returning". He means, I guess, that since I
              was
              > >not born in Russia, I cannot "return".
              > >
              > >The western civilisation is uniquely individualistic, and does
              not
              > >know much about collective or inter generational common identity.
              A
              > >Palestinian however would speak about his right to "return", even
              if
              > >he was not born in Palestine, Jews "returned " to the holy land
              even
              > >if they were not born in Palestine, Crimean Tatars "returned" to
              > >Crimea even if they were not born in Crimea, and
              Russians "return"
              > >to Russia even if they were not born in Russia. The very
              > >term "Russian" implies a common identity that spreads over
              > >individuals and generations. We can say "we, Russians". There is
              > >even, in the history of mankind the notion of a "chosen people".
              > >
              > >Things in the West have gone so far, that psychoanalysts, who
              know
              > >perfectly well that my grandfather is present in myself and
              dictates
              > >some of my most intimate thoughts and deeds, would suggest
              to "cure"
              > >me by "liberating" me from those "external" influences, but would
              > >not guarantee total success in this endeavour.
              > >
              > >Regarding his experience of not meeting any single other
              foreigner
              > >(or anyone from abroad) when visiting a ROCOR parish in Russia, I
              > >had a similar experience. I was taken to this parish by a local
              > >Russian colleague who knew about the existence of ROCOR, even
              though
              > >he was a member of a MP parish. He had guessed I had something to
              do
              > >with the ROCOR.
              > >
              > >In God,
              > >
              > >Vladimir Kozyreff
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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