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Re: [orthodox-synod] Boris Jordan Unites Russian Church???

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  • DCNDIMITRI@AOL.COM
    This is par for the course for the Jordans. If it wasn t for them, St Vladimir would never have made it to Constantinople!
    Message 1 of 12 , May 28, 2004
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      This is par for the course for the Jordans. If it wasn't for them, St Vladimir would never have made it to Constantinople!
    • Hristofor
      When I clicked on the link, I could not help but notice that the article was written by a Marija Sveshnikova--most likely a reporter or correspondent for
      Message 2 of 12 , May 28, 2004
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        When I clicked on the link, I could not help but notice that the article
        was written by a Marija Sveshnikova--most likely a reporter or
        correspondent for strana.ru--and NOT by Boris A Jordan. Good grief!!
        Boris can hardly be blamed or credited for a news article that he did
        not write! Furthermore the headline was 100% misleading: I expected to
        read all the details on how Boris united the two sides. However that is
        not what the article is about--at all.

        In paragraph one, we read a brief resume (or soundbite if you will) by
        His Holiness on the recent meetings in Moscow. The patriarch, BTW, is
        quoted as saying: "??????, ?? ??? ??????, ????????? ?????????? ??
        "????????? ???????????", ??????? ???? ?? ????????? ???????????? ????
        ?????? ??????? ??????..." (True, in his words, there exist 'small
        obstacles' which need to be overcome and for now do not allow the union
        of the two parts of the Russian Church...") No mention of unification
        already having occurred or any reference to BAJ there.

        In the second paragraph, we learn that a special commemorative album on
        St Seraphim, with many hereto unpublished pictures, was printed
        specially for the visit and BAJ presented a copy to Vl. Lavr. One may
        construe that he published the book, but the article really does not say
        definitely. This is followed by his thoughts on unification as well as
        those of his deceased father (Memory Eternal!). This is the first (and
        last) reference to BAJ in the whole article.

        The third and final paragraph gives thoughts of Vl Lavr on the spiritual
        importance of the book, St Seraphim's example of brotherly love and how
        that should be an example to both sides for unity. He closed with the
        hope that by St Seraphim's prayers, the two sides will be able to
        jointly serve the Russian People.

        Its hard to believe that any significance is placed on this
        absurdly-headlined article, which has more in common with a sensational
        "Elvis sighting" headline of the "National Enquirer" than anything else.
        A more appropriate title might be "Commemorative Album Published on the
        Occasion of Church Meeting" or even (it's a stretch, though) "Jordan's
        Personal Thoughts on Unification". I admit, those are somewhat boring
        headlines and no one would probably even click on the link to read it.

        Hristofor

        romanraskolnikov wrote:

        >This guy is unbelievable...he is trying to take more credit for
        >things than Al Gore.
        >Did Boris invent the internet as well??
        >
        >
        >
        >--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "kato_ny" <kato_ny@y...>
        >wrote:
        >
        >
        >>I am posting several links to the subject matter that concluded
        >>basically today here in Moscow Russia.
        >>
        >>It seems that the ROCA delegation finally concluded, that the
        >>
        >>
        >church
        >
        >
        >>should be one, and the process of the "white church" to unite with
        >>the patriarchate is finally on its way.
        >>
        >>Topics like Jerricho and Hebron were not brought up at all, and
        >>
        >>
        >lets
        >
        >
        >>forget about it all, afterall, it really doesn't matter anymore,
        >>
        >>
        >even
        >
        >
        >>if it happened just a few years ago.
        >>
        >>Whats also interesting to note:
        >>
        >>The ROCA delegation "suppossedly" met up with the "potomstveniki",
        >>the children of the (white) Russians who returned back to
        >>
        >>
        >Russia...
        >
        >
        >>I've been in Russia myself for 12 years now, I've attended the
        >>
        >>
        >ROCA
        >
        >
        >>church services not just in Moscow, and I have never seen not one
        >>
        >>
        >of
        >
        >
        >>these children attend any of the ROCA church services in all these
        >>years. Yet they were invited to take part in the greetings with
        >>
        >>
        >Lavr
        >
        >
        >>and Alexi.
        >>
        >>The following could be said about these individuals:
        >>Chavchavadze who should have little or no relations to all of this
        >>
        >>
        >at
        >
        >
        >>all, is originally from the soviet union, and is not a supporter
        >>
        >>
        >of
        >
        >
        >>ROCA. Boris Jordan, never stepped foot into any ROCA churches in
        >>Russia, and if the article about him says one thing, his father
        >>
        >>
        >said
        >
        >
        >>something quite different. And as one of the priests mentioned
        >>
        >>
        >about
        >
        >
        >>how his son decided to move to Russia, becuase of the russian
        >>
        >>
        >soul,
        >
        >
        >>unfortunately, his son has shyed away from religion.
        >>
        >>Atleast 5 of our ROCA delegations know that I live in Moscow, even
        >>have my number. I wonder how many ROCA churches did our delegation
        >>meet during their time in Russia.
        >>
        >>This is a controlled society as well, as I can see it. The entire
        >>visit was a controlled environment, since the delegation was
        >>
        >>
        >worried
        >
        >
        >>that there would be some demonstrations.
        >>
        >>Judge for yourselves.
        >>
        >>I don't want to cause any harm in any relations. The churches
        >>
        >>
        >should
        >
        >
        >>in reality unite. But today is not the time, and we have been
        >>misleaded, lied to, and now we have to rush into this unification?
        >>
        >>Is this the beginning of the end?
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>VIDEO COVERAGE (IN RUSSIAN)
        >>
        >>http://www.1tv.ru/owa/win/ort6_videopage.main?
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >sender=news&p_topic_id=67090&p_video_num=1&counter1_href=287212&count
        >e
        >
        >
        >>r2_href=id=268366;t=56
        >>
        >>http://www.vesti.ru/rvideo.html?vid=31403
        >>
        >>http://www.1tv.ru/owa/win/ort6_videopage.main?
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >sender=news&p_topic_id=67095&p_video_num=1&counter1_href=287212&count
        >e
        >
        >
        >>r2_href=id=268366;t=56
        >>
        >>NEWS COVERAGE (IN RUSSIAN)
        >>Ïðåçèäåíò âîññîåäèíèò Öåðêâè
        >>http://www.gzt.ru/rub.gzt?id=64050000000017830
        >>"Ïîéìè, â Àìåðèêå íåò äóøè, à â Ðîññèè îíà åñòü"
        >>http://www.gzt.ru/rub.gzt?id=64050000000017736
        >>Äåëåãàöèÿ ÐÏÖÇ çàâåðøàåò ïàëîìíè÷åñòâî ê ñâÿòûíÿì Ðîññèè
        >>http://www.newsru.com/religy/26may2004/zarubezhn_mark.html
        >>Ãëàâà Çàðóáåæíîé öåðêâè âñòðåòèëñÿ ñ ïîòîìêàìè ýìèãðàíòîâ,
        >>ïåðååõàâøèõ â Ðîññèþ
        >>http://www.newsru.com/religy/27may2004/vstrechi.html
        >>Ñ âèçèòîì â Êóðñêå
        >>http://www.rusedina.org/?id=6567
        >>Ãëàâà Ðóññêîé Ïðàâîñëàâíîé öåðêâè çà ðóáåæîì ìèòðîïîëèò Ëàâ
        >>âñòðåòèëñÿ ñ ïðåäñòàâèòåëÿìè äðåâíåéøèõ ðóññêèõ äèíàñòèé
        >>http://www.vor.ru/news/index.phtml?act=6549
        >>Ãëàâà Çàðóáåæíîé Öåðêâè âñòðåòèëñÿ ñ ïîòîìêàìè ýìèãðàíòîâ,
        >>ïåðååõàâøèõ â Ðîññèþ
        >>http://www.religio.ru/news/8179.html
        >>Áåç ïðîðûâà
        >>http://www.mk.ru/numbers/1102/article31799.htm
        >>
        >>Éîðäàí îáúåäèíèë Ïðàâîñëàâíóþ Öåðêîâü
        >>http://www.strana.ru/stories/01/12/25/2268/216555.html
        >>(I love this title) good glory!!!
        >>
        >>Ïðàâîñëàâíûå íàìåðåíû îáúåäèíèòüñÿ áûñòðî
        >>http://www.strana.ru/news/216551.html
        >>
        >>http://www.regions.ru/article/any/id/1522932.html
        >>
        >>AUDIO (RUSSIAN)
        >>http://www.radiomayak.ru/interview/04/05/27/29942.html
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • vkozyreff
        Dear Father John, bless. You write: In fact, Russian emigres who go back to Russia usually are neither aware of, nor in search of, the groups that have joined
        Message 3 of 12 , May 28, 2004
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          Dear Father John, bless.

          You write: "In fact, Russian emigres who go back to Russia usually
          are neither aware of, nor in search of, the groups that have joined
          ROCOR there. Remember that these communities had nothing to do with
          the Russian expatriates: they were formed by dissatisfied people from
          the Moscow Patriarchate ».

          I am a Russian émigré, and I returned to Russia because Russia and
          the Russians are dearer and closer to my soul than anything or
          anybody in this world, especially those who remained faithful to the
          true orthodoxy, that is to say those who are dissatisfied by the MP
          (there are many). Which Russians have nothing to do with me?

          The reason why I call myself Russian in the emigration is that I am
          in constant search of my people, especially of those who kept their
          faith in orthodoxy and in Holy Russia.

          How can you speak on our behalf?

          In God,

          Vladimir Kozyreff



          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
          <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
          > Kato wrote:
          >
          > > Topics like Jerricho and Hebron were not brought up at all, and
          lets
          > > forget about it all,
          >
          > JRS: Several sessions of the talks were behind closed doors. If you
          > were not there, how do you know what issues were discussed? Perhaps
          the
          > Jericho and Hebron situations were indeed brought up!
          >
          > > I've been in Russia myself for 12 years now, I've attended the
          ROCA
          > > church services not just in Moscow, and I have never seen not one
          of
          > > these children attend any of the ROCA church services in all
          these
          > > years. Yet they were invited to take part in the greetings with
          Lavr
          > > and Alexi.
          >
          > JRS: They were considered a subject of interest because of the fact
          > that they also had been part of the Russian emigration, not because
          > they attended ROCOR communities in Russia.
          >
          > In fact, Russian emigres who go back to Russia usually are neither
          > aware of, nor in search of, the groups that have joined ROCOR there.
          > Remember that these communities had nothing to do with the Russian
          > expatriates: they were formed by dissatisfied people from the
          Moscow
          > Patriarchate.
          >
          > > The following could be said about these individuals:
          >
          > > Chavchavadze who should have little or no relations to all of
          this at
          > > all, is originally from the soviet union, and is not a supporter
          of
          > > ROCA.
          >
          > JRS: George Chavchavadze, of a noble Georgian family, wrote a novel
          in
          > English about the life of an emigre Russian Orthodox priest,
          published
          > in America in the early 1950's, called FATHER VIKENTY. Some of the
          > images in this book are memorable, because they quite accurately
          > represent a Russian emigre world that is now for the most part
          > vanished. But other elements in the book are distinctly open to
          > criticism, and the author took a rather irreverent attitude towards
          the
          > Church.
          >
          > Kato does not mention whether the Chavchavadze he speaks of was the
          > same one (who I think was born around 1920, and would be elderly by
          now
          > if still alive!)is the author of that book, or no.
          >
          > In Christ
          > Fr. John R. Shaw
        • VJB
          Vladimir, I am just wondering how old you are since you returned to Russia and when did you actually leave Russia (I apologize if this is too personal)? The
          Message 4 of 12 , May 28, 2004
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            Vladimir,

            I am just wondering how old you are since you "returned" to Russia and when did you actually leave Russia (I apologize if this is too personal)? The last emigre I met was a 94 year old baroness born in SPb in 1915, who as a child had experienced Galipoli, Serbia, Belgium and finally came to US in 1950's. I realize that you may belong to the so-called "second wave." I know a lot of those in ROCOR here in the US and I know some who went back for pilgrimages but hardly in search of ROCOR communities.

            I personally know a number of descendants of the "White" Russian emigres in the US who are in the OCA (and some very impressive names that appear in every history book). They chose OCA only because it is in communion with the Church in Russia (that is MP).

            I spent a year in 1999 and part of 1998 and 2000 in a then-ROCOR church just outside of SPb. During that time Bishop Michael came twice with a pastoral visit but not a single other foreigner (or anyone from abroad). That was the only parish in SPb and the largest in the north-east. I guess experiences can be different for different people.

            viatcheslav

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: vkozyreff
            To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 11:35 AM
            Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: ROCA - MP UNIFICATION PROCESS UNDERWAY


            Dear Father John, bless.

            You write: "In fact, Russian emigres who go back to Russia usually
            are neither aware of, nor in search of, the groups that have joined
            ROCOR there. Remember that these communities had nothing to do with
            the Russian expatriates: they were formed by dissatisfied people from
            the Moscow Patriarchate ».

            I am a Russian émigré, and I returned to Russia because Russia and
            the Russians are dearer and closer to my soul than anything or
            anybody in this world, especially those who remained faithful to the
            true orthodoxy, that is to say those who are dissatisfied by the MP
            (there are many). Which Russians have nothing to do with me?

            The reason why I call myself Russian in the emigration is that I am
            in constant search of my people, especially of those who kept their
            faith in orthodoxy and in Holy Russia.

            How can you speak on our behalf?

            In God,

            Vladimir Kozyreff




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Fr. John R. Shaw
            ... JRS: You do not seem to have *repatriated* to Russia, though. You still reside in France, do you not? I was speaking of those former emigres who returned
            Message 5 of 12 , May 28, 2004
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              Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:

              > I am a Russian émigré, and I returned to Russia because Russia and
              > the Russians are dearer and closer to my soul than anything or
              > anybody in this world, especially those who remained faithful to the
              > true orthodoxy, that is to say those who are dissatisfied by the MP
              > (there are many). Which Russians have nothing to do with me?

              JRS: You do not seem to have *repatriated* to Russia, though. You still
              reside in France, do you not?

              I was speaking of those former emigres who returned to Russia with the
              idea of staying there.

              My impression has been that most of those Russian emigres who
              repatriated to Russia, were not people who identified themselves
              exclusively with the Church Abroad.

              Kazem-Bek, for example, was a Russian emigre and at one time a
              monarchist. Then he repatriated to the Soviet Union, and became a
              writer for the Journal of the Moscow Patriarchate.

              > How can you speak on our behalf?

              JRS: I did not claim to "speak on your behalf": only to share my own
              impressions. Surely I have as much right to do that, as anyone else
              does!

              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw
            • vkozyreff
              Dear Father John, bless. Any Russian émigré has positioned himself relative to Russia, to the country where he is staying, and to the faith. He knows why he
              Message 6 of 12 , May 28, 2004
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                Dear Father John, bless.

                Any Russian émigré has positioned himself relative to Russia, to the
                country where he is staying, and to the faith. He knows why he is
                living abroad and why he arrived there. He knows whether the reasons
                why he is living abroad have disappeared or not. He knows whether he
                is orthodox or is not, and whether he belongs to the
                Evlogian "church", to the ROCOR or to the MP. If he decides to go
                and live in Russia, he knows even better all of the above. No
                Russian émigré who would go to reside in Russia even for a few
                months would ignore the fact that there are ROCOR parishes in Russia.

                Many of those who decide to return for ever in the present
                circumstances do not see much wrong with the MP claiming that it is
                the true Church, but this does not mean that they do not know about
                ROCOR parishes. In addition any local Russian friend would tell them
                about it immediately if he did not know himself. The MP is a very
                prominent element of the landscape, as is everybody's attitude
                towards it.

                Moreover, many émigrés succumbed to nostalgia and betrayed their
                faith if necessary when returned to Russia. The Tcheka KGB GPU has
                been very instrumental in this matter. We have seen also many
                noblemen returning to Russia, seduced by new the legitimacy offered
                to them by the present regime. The spirit is strong, but the flesh
                is weak.

                In God,

                Vladimir Kozyreff



                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                > Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
                >
                > > I am a Russian émigré, and I returned to Russia because Russia
                and
                > > the Russians are dearer and closer to my soul than anything or
                > > anybody in this world, especially those who remained faithful to
                the
                > > true orthodoxy, that is to say those who are dissatisfied by the
                MP
                > > (there are many). Which Russians have nothing to do with me?
                >
                > JRS: You do not seem to have *repatriated* to Russia, though. You
                still
                > reside in France, do you not?
                >
                > I was speaking of those former emigres who returned to Russia with
                the
                > idea of staying there.
                >
                > My impression has been that most of those Russian emigres who
                > repatriated to Russia, were not people who identified themselves
                > exclusively with the Church Abroad.
                >
                > Kazem-Bek, for example, was a Russian emigre and at one time a
                > monarchist. Then he repatriated to the Soviet Union, and became a
                > writer for the Journal of the Moscow Patriarchate.
                >
                > > How can you speak on our behalf?
                >
                > JRS: I did not claim to "speak on your behalf": only to share my
                own
                > impressions. Surely I have as much right to do that, as anyone
                else
                > does!
                >
                > In Christ
                > Fr. John R. Shaw
              • Fr. John R. Shaw
                ... who as a child had experienced Galipoli, Serbia, Belgium and finally came to US in 1950 s JRS: She sounds like an interesting person to meet, but something
                Message 7 of 12 , May 30, 2004
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                  Viatcheslav wrote:

                  > The last emigre I met was a 94 year old baroness born in SPb in 1915,
                  who as a child had experienced Galipoli, Serbia, Belgium and finally
                  came to US in 1950's

                  JRS: She sounds like an interesting person to meet, but something is
                  wrong with the arithmetic.

                  If she was born in 1915, she would still be only 88-89 years old, as of
                  2004.

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw
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