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Re: The Mission of the Church Abroad?

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  • vkozyreff
    Dear Father John, bless. What I mean is that the communist would never have chosen a language that was not clear to all Russians. Moreover, the Slavonic
    Message 1 of 19 , May 2, 2004
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      Dear Father John, bless.

      What I mean is that the communist would never have chosen a language
      that was not clear to all Russians. Moreover, the Slavonic language
      has a "torzhestviennost" (majestic-ness) that the Russian language
      does not have. The Communists wanted to take advantage of it. This
      topic was discussed here, about the various types of English
      languages (St James's etc.)

      The majestic character of the language is also among the reasons why
      it is so precious to the orthodox and so loved by them. As one
      knows, the communists wanted to replace our faith by theirs (anti-
      Christ, instead of Christ).

      In addition, the Slavonic language is used to create new Russian
      words, like "mlekopitayuscheye" (mammal).

      The Slavic languages are very close to one another, like the
      Scandinavian ones. In my previous work, I used to speak in Russian
      to Bulgarians and Macedonians, while they would reply in their
      language and everything was clear. The Slavonic language is
      particularly close to the Bulgarian-Macedonian languages. The
      Slavonic language is a perfect common language for the Slavic
      orthodox.

      In some liturgical books for Russians, for instance, the Slavonic
      text is accompanied by footnotes, for places that would supposedly
      not be clear for Russians. Actually, most of those notes are
      superfluous.

      In French speaking countries, the French language of many past
      centuries ("vieux fran├žais"), in spite of being significantly
      different from the present French, is nevertheless perfectly
      understandable by prent French speaking people.

      In God,

      Vladimir Kozyreff





      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
      <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
      > Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
      >
      > > For the List, let me mention that the well known USSR slogan so
      many
      > > million times repeated "Da zdrazstvuyet Kommunisticheskaya
      partiya"
      > > (Long live the communist party) is in Slavonic, not Russian.
      >
      > JRS: Are you saying that the language used would make any
      difference in
      > such a case?
      >
      > Although, in Egyptian hieroglyphs, at least not everyone would
      have to
      > know what it said...
      >
      > In Christ
      > Fr. John R. Shaw
    • Paul O. BARTLETT
      ... I presume, then, that western Orthodox priests should know Latin? After all, the heritage of western Orthodoxy was transmitted in Latin, not Greek or
      Message 2 of 19 , May 2, 2004
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        On Sat, 1 May 2004, Joachim Wertz wrote:

        > [much trimmed] Personally I think that
        > all priests of any liturgical tradition should at least be able to read the
        > respective liturgical language of their Churches and traditions.

        I presume, then, that western Orthodox priests should know Latin?
        After all, the heritage of western Orthodoxy was transmitted in Latin,
        not Greek or Slavonic. There are Orthodox Christians (in ROCOR itself,
        if my information is correct) who celebrate a western Liturgy (which
        some of them may even call Mass, horror of horrors) rather than the
        Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil. The Latin Liturgy of
        St. Gregory the Great and Gregorian and Ambrosian chant have ancient
        Orthodox roots. For all I know, there may be Orthodox monks who
        follow the Rule of St. Benedict, who as nearly as I can tell was a
        great Orthodox saint.

        --
        Paul Bartlett
        bartlett "at" smart "dot" net
        PGP key info in message headers
      • frvboldewskul@aol.com
        In a message dated 5/2/04 7:35:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... This question was posed to Fr. John, but I wish to give my two cents on this one point. As
        Message 3 of 19 , May 2, 2004
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          In a message dated 5/2/04 7:35:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
          stephen_reske@... writes:

          > .
          >
          > Father, when I woke up this morning I couldn't help
          > but notice I'm living in the year 2004 and that my
          > neighbors primarily speak English here in America. Are
          > you suggesting American and European converts should
          > learn Church Slavonic in order to fully participate in
          > Divine Services?
          >
          >

          This question was posed to Fr. John, but I wish to give my two cents on this
          one point. As noted by someone else in a post this afternoon, many of our
          parishes were founded by individuals with the intent that the language used be
          Church Slavonic. For example, in my parish in Cleveland, my people would have
          become members of one of the other 29 Orthodox Churches here, if it wasn't for
          this question (more so than calendar). We are a Church Slavonic parish that
          serves parts in English. This means we lose good people, and gain good people.
          But in a parish that I am starting in Sandusky OH, that parish will probably be
          at least 90 percent in English. In my parish in Columbus, we use a mix of
          50/50, although that depends on who is serving. (When Liturgy is not served, the
          Reader services are nearly all in English). So the issue is parish make-up. St.
          Sergius Parish in Cleveland is not made of 33 percent of converts, although I
          am pleased that in the last few years I have baptized three American converts
          who are faithful to the Church. I doubt that this answers the question, but I
          suggest considering this one point: each parish is different with its own
          history, for better or for worse. This history cannot be ignored and each priest
          needs to know his parish. There is no common formula that works in all places.

          Priest Victor Boldewskul


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Fr. John R. Shaw
          ... itself, ... JRS: Quite so. But the more you know, the better off you are! So, even for Western Rite priests, a little familiarity with things Slavonic
          Message 4 of 19 , May 3, 2004
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            Paul Bartlett wrote:

            > I presume, then, that western Orthodox priests should know Latin?
            > After all, the heritage of western Orthodoxy was transmitted in Latin,
            > not Greek or Slavonic. There are Orthodox Christians (in ROCOR
            itself,
            > if my information is correct) who celebrate a western Liturgy...

            JRS: Quite so.

            But the more you know, the better off you are! So, even for Western
            Rite priests, a little familiarity with things Slavonic can't hurt...

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw
          • Joachim Wertz
            I have myself attended a Western Rite Liturgy in a church that is in ROCOR, and there were parts of the Liturgy (Mass) that were read in Latin. I would say
            Message 5 of 19 , May 3, 2004
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              I have myself attended a Western Rite Liturgy in a church that is in ROCOR,
              and there were parts of the Liturgy (Mass) that were read in Latin. I would
              say that it would not be a bad idea if these Western Rite ROCOR clergy did
              know how to read Latin. I suspect that some at least, do. It wouldn't hurt.
              In my previous posting I wrote merely "read" the traditional liturgical
              language. I should have said "read for comprehension", and not just
              pronounce the services in said language. I can pronounce the Greek services,
              but my comprehension of the Greek liturgical language is less than 20%. It
              is my opinion that it is in a priest's best interest to know the traditional
              liturgical language (and even the modern language spoken by his Bishop), at
              least for his safeguarding against misunderstandings. No, I am not proposing
              that clergy be re-educated or that clergy wishing to join another
              jurisdiction should be subjected to a linguistic "litmus test". I was only
              speaking of an ideal and pointing out that there still is much work to be
              done in translating texts into languages that are not traditionally
              Orthodox. Then we could go into the issue of *which* translations should be
              standard!

              Christ is Risen!

              Joachim Wertz


              From: "Paul O. BARTLETT" <bartlett@...>
              Organization: SmartNet Private Account
              Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 19:35:24 -0400 (EDT)
              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] The Mission of the Church Abroad?


              On Sat, 1 May 2004, Joachim Wertz wrote:

              > [much trimmed] Personally I think that
              > all priests of any liturgical tradition should at least be able to read the
              > respective liturgical language of their Churches and traditions.

              I presume, then, that western Orthodox priests should know Latin?
              After all, the heritage of western Orthodoxy was transmitted in Latin,
              not Greek or Slavonic. There are Orthodox Christians (in ROCOR itself,
              if my information is correct) who celebrate a western Liturgy (which
              some of them may even call Mass, horror of horrors) rather than the
              Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil. The Latin Liturgy of
              St. Gregory the Great and Gregorian and Ambrosian chant have ancient
              Orthodox roots. For all I know, there may be Orthodox monks who
              follow the Rule of St. Benedict, who as nearly as I can tell was a
              great Orthodox saint.

              --
              Paul Bartlett
              bartlett "at" smart "dot" net
              PGP key info in message headers



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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Paul O. BARTLETT
              ... How many day to day (non-specialist) Russian or other Slavic Orthodox priests know Greek? After all, Slavonic ritual books themselves were translated
              Message 6 of 19 , May 3, 2004
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                On Mon, 3 May 2004, Fr. John R. Shaw wrote:

                > Paul Bartlett wrote:
                >
                > > I presume, then, that western Orthodox priests should know Latin?
                > > After all, the heritage of western Orthodoxy was transmitted in Latin,
                > > not Greek or Slavonic. There are Orthodox Christians (in ROCOR itself,
                > > if my information is correct) who celebrate a western Liturgy...
                >
                > JRS: Quite so.
                >
                > But the more you know, the better off you are! So, even for Western
                > Rite priests, a little familiarity with things Slavonic can't hurt...

                How many "day to day" (non-specialist) Russian or other Slavic
                Orthodox priests know Greek? After all, Slavonic ritual books
                themselves were translated originally from Greek. (Of course, later
                services may have been composed in Slavonic, but I am not aware that
                the Divine Liturgies themselves were.) "So, even for [Eastern] Rite
                priests, a little familiarity with things [Greek] can't hurt".

                --
                Paul Bartlett
                bartlett "at" smart "dot" net
                PGP key info in message headers
              • Fr. John R. Shaw
                X.B.! ... JRS: It would be hard to determine how *well* they know Greek, but nevertheless, Greek is a required subject in the seminary. When I was a student at
                Message 7 of 19 , May 4, 2004
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                  X.B.!

                  Paul Bartlett wrote:

                  > How many "day to day" (non-specialist) Russian or other Slavic
                  > Orthodox priests know Greek? After all, Slavonic ritual books
                  > themselves were translated originally from Greek. (Of course, later
                  > services may have been composed in Slavonic, but I am not aware that
                  > the Divine Liturgies themselves were.) "So, even for [Eastern] Rite
                  > priests, a little familiarity with things [Greek] can't hurt".

                  JRS: It would be hard to determine how *well* they know Greek, but
                  nevertheless, Greek is a required subject in the seminary.

                  When I was a student at Jordanville, not only were we required to learn
                  Greek, but once a year, on the feast of the Three Hierarchs, the Divine
                  Liturgy was sung in Greek (but following the Russian Typicon).

                  When there are Greek-speakers in church, I sometimes say certain
                  prayers in Greek for their benefit (e.g. the prayers before communion).
                  Our chanter, who knows both Slavonic and Greek, will also sometimes
                  sing chants in the original Greek.

                  Everything depends on who attends a given service.

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw
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