Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [orthodox-synod] The Mission of the Church Abroad?

Expand Messages
  • Stephen Reske
    ... Indeed He is Risen! Thank you for your reply, father. I do have a few questions though. ... Yes, of course. I wonder though...are liturgical language,
    Message 1 of 19 , May 1 8:10 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      --- "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrvrevjrsxexecpcom> wrote:
      >
      > X.B.!

      Indeed He is Risen!
      Thank you for your reply, father. I do have a few
      questions though.

      >
      > JRJRSTo begin with, remember that ROROCORoes stand
      > for "Russian
      > Orthodox Church Outside Russia".

      Yes, of course. I wonder though...are liturgical
      language, Russian sermons, and a seeming lack of
      desire to engage with your neighbors all
      nenecessitiesf being part of the Russian Church? St.
      Herman seemed to do a decent job of remaining
      perfectly in the Russia tradition while preaching to
      his neighbors and communicating in their language.

      > ROROCORs not simply an American Church: it is an
      > international Church,
      > and Russian roots are what bind it together.
      >

      Fair enough. The Russian Church which, in reality,
      has no real ties to Russia anymore.

      > Yes, Russians only half-understand Church Slavonic,
      > *unless they have
      > been taught Slavonic*.


      > Before the revolution, all primary and secondary
      > schools in Russia
      > taught at least the beginnings of Church Slavonic,
      > just as Slavonic
      > used to be taught in schools in Serbia and Bulgaria,
      > before the
      > communist period.

      Father, when I woke up this morning I couldn't help
      but notice I'm living in the year 2004 and that my
      neighbors primarily speak English here in America. Are
      you suggesting American and European converts should
      learn Church Slavonic in order to fully participate in
      Divine Services?

      > But people who are active in the Church usually do
      > have some knowledge
      > of Slavonic. Thus for example many Slavonic
      > expressions have been taken
      > over into modern Russian, such as "VoVorvremjanono
      > (the usual beginning
      > of Gospel readings).

      Yes, in Russian...and not many expressions, at that.



      > But then, the King James Bible is much more recent
      > than Church
      > Slavonic, is still considered "modern English", but
      > people have to get
      > used to it also.

      Indeed they do, but it is still recognizable
      English. Russians can understand what, 60% of Slavonic
      services? How about not Russian speakers, 0%?

      > And again, the actual *content* of our liturgical
      > texts is neither
      > simple nor easily understood, in any language. Quite
      > often hearing
      > these texts in English only gives a feeling that the
      > language is
      > English -- not any immediate insight into the
      > meaning!

      If the services are that difficult to comprehend in
      English, why make it more difficult with Slavonic?

      > Furthermore, Western people, including Americans, of
      > non-Orthodox
      > background, have no problem following a service in a
      > book. This was the
      > general practice among Roman Catholics when the Mass
      > was in Latin!
      > Russians, on the other hand, do not feel at home
      > trying to use books in
      > church.

      What do the former practices of the Roman Catholic
      Church have to do with the Orthodox idea of mission?
      SS Cyril and MeMethodiusSt. Herman, et alalwere not
      creating bi-lingual prayer books and telling converts
      to "make do".


      > JRJRSMany? That means you are aware he does
      > sometimes use English too.
      > The answer to the question is that many of the
      > listeners speak Russian
      > as a first, or perhaps only, language.

      Quite frankly, many Russians in America and Europe
      can speak English. If they are living and working
      here, chances are they are able to grasp the language.
      If sermons are given in Russian though because a
      clergyman believes it will be more edifying for his
      primarily Russian speaking flock, that clergyman
      should understand that it is the equivalent to putting
      a "not welcome" sign on the door for inquirers.

      > Our churches today are packed with new people from
      > Russia. These people
      > are often like children in their approach to the
      > Church. The American
      > converts and "interested non-Orthodox" usually have
      > an entirely
      > different psychological outlook, and come already
      > prepared to hear
      > another language.

      I know many Russians in the OCOCAho have no problem
      with English as a liturgical language. Like I said
      before, they are living, working, and raising families
      here and are learning or already able to understand
      the language. Should Americans "be prepared" to hear
      another language in the Orthodox Churches, or should
      the Russians/Greeks, etc. be prepared to hear the
      language of their new countries? If you believe
      Russians won't come to a church with non-Slavonic
      services, I can't agree- I've seen many, many Russians
      at all English parishes doing just fine. Why the fear
      of Russians not being interested, but not of
      Americans/Europeans not being interested in foreign
      language services?

      >
      > They know where they have come -- and why!

      Yes, and that may be why you get some strange birds
      and rurussophilesttending all Slavonic services, while
      it seems some more "adjusted" folk have the good sense
      to attend services they can understand.


      > That is why even non-Orthodox seminaries teach New
      > Testament Greek to
      > their students: because a translation never gives
      > you every nuance of
      > the original!

      That is fine for academia, and should be
      encouraged. But, when has this ever been the norm for
      the average Orthodox parishioner? What enenlightenersf
      new lands have told the people "learn the
      Greek/Slavonic, after a 10 years you'll really
      appreciate the nuances!" Also, if you're saying that
      translations don't give the correct "nuances", perhaps
      the Russian parishes should start using Greek, as they
      are only working from translations.
      >
      > But remember this, that before Vatican II, Roman
      > Catholic seminarians
      > had to learn to speak and write Latin fluently.

      Again, what do the practices of the Roman Church
      have to do with the Orthodox?

      > Latin is not a modern spoken language. Nobody speaks
      > it except
      > scholars.

      > But it was (to some extent may still be) a valuable
      > "lingua frfrancafor
      > priests.

      If priests want to learn it, that's fine. The average
      "Joe" or even "Ivan" shouldn't be required to take up
      linguistics classes of a 9th century Bulgarian dialect
      in order to worship properly.



      > Perhaps some day you will take a vacation to Europe.
      > Munich may be
      > Munich to you, but if you go to the Russian churches
      > there, you will
      > feel that you are at home.

      Yes, I have felt at home in Russian churches, in
      Russia. This is true. But why don't Russians in
      Western Europe and America feel at home then with
      English services?

      > The truth is that due to its international
      > character, ROROCORses
      > Russian as a "lingua frfranca and in my days at
      > JoJordanvillewe had
      > students from other countries who did not speak
      > English, or only spoke
      > it poorly -- but who were at home conversing with
      > one another in
      > Russian.

      This does make sense to me.


      > Fr. John R. Shaw

      Thank you father for your response. I do not mean to
      come across as rude or confrontational, but this is an
      issue that I have personally been wrestling with.




      __________________________________
      Do you Yahoo!?
      Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
      http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
    • Fr. John R. Shaw
      CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN ... JRS: This too is an entirely valid point. But the problem is quite involved, and the solution is not simply to switch
      Message 2 of 19 , May 2 4:30 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN

        Regarding:

        > Many, many people, when
        > they see "Russian Orthodox (Greek, Serbian,
        > etc)Church, are sure that one must be Russian, etc to
        > go there. Also, it is very hard to bring English
        > speaking inquirers to a church that is doing
        > everything in a language that they don't understand.

        JRS: This too is an entirely valid point. But the problem is quite
        involved, and the solution is not simply to switch the Russian parishes
        over to English.

        Where possible, having one service in English and another in Slavonic
        has usually worked well. In our parish, since we can only have a single
        Divine Liturgy on any given day, we have the Scriptures in both
        languages, and two (different) sermons, one in Russian and the other in
        English (both reasonably short). Otherwise, the use of languages
        depends on who is present and what the circumstances are: for example,
        baptisms and weddings may be entirely in one or the other language.

        > And again, if one can learn a language to earn a
        > living, one should be able to learn the language to
        > worship. Now that doesn't mean that I never want to
        > hear Slavonic at Church, I do, but I don't think that
        > one MUST learn Russian (or Greek, Serbian, etc,) to be
        > Orthodox.

        JRS: I never said that one "must" -- but doing so can be very helpful!

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw
      • Fr. John R. Shaw
        ... JRS: Are you saying that the language used would make any difference in such a case? Although, in Egyptian hieroglyphs, at least not everyone would have to
        Message 3 of 19 , May 2 4:34 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:

          > For the List, let me mention that the well known USSR slogan so many
          > million times repeated "Da zdrazstvuyet Kommunisticheskaya partiya"
          > (Long live the communist party) is in Slavonic, not Russian.

          JRS: Are you saying that the language used would make any difference in
          such a case?

          Although, in Egyptian hieroglyphs, at least not everyone would have to
          know what it said...

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw
        • Stephen Reske
          ... Indeed He is Risen! Thank you for your reply, father. I do have a few questions though. ... Yes, of course. I wonder though...are liturgical language,
          Message 4 of 19 , May 2 4:56 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            ---- "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrvrevjrsxexecpcom> wrote:
            >
            > X.B.!

            Indeed He is Risen!
            Thank you for your reply, father. I do have a few
            questions though.

            >
            > To begin with, remember that ROCOR stands
            > for "Russian
            > Orthodox Church Outside Russia".

            Yes, of course. I wonder though...are liturgical
            language, Russian sermons, and a seeming lack of
            desire to engage with your neighbors all
            nenecessitiesf being part of the Russian Church? St.
            Herman seemed to do a decent job of remaining
            perfectly in the Russia tradition while preaching to
            his neighbors and communicating in their language.

            > ROCOR is not simply an American Church: it is an
            > international Church,
            > and Russian roots are what bind it together.
            >

            Fair enough. The Russian Church which, in reality,
            has no real ties to Russia anymore.

            > Yes, Russians only half-understand Church Slavonic,
            > *unless they have
            > been taught Slavonic*.


            > Before the revolution, all primary and secondary
            > schools in Russia
            > taught at least the beginnings of Church Slavonic,
            > just as Slavonic
            > used to be taught in schools in Serbia and Bulgaria,
            > before the
            > communist period.

            Father, when I woke up this morning I couldn't help
            but notice I'm living in the year 2004 and that my
            neighbors primarily speak English here in America. Are
            you suggesting American and European converts should
            learn Church Slavonic in order to fully participate in
            Divine Services?

            > But people who are active in the Church usually do
            > have some knowledge
            > of Slavonic. Thus for example many Slavonic
            > expressions have been taken
            > over into modern Russian, such as "VoVorvremjanono
            > (the usual beginning
            > of Gospel readings).

            Yes, in Russian...and not many expressions, at that.



            > But then, the King James Bible is much more recent
            > than Church
            > Slavonic, is still considered "modern English", but
            > people have to get
            > used to it also.

            Indeed they do, but it is still recognizable
            English. Russians can understand what, 60% of Slavonic
            services? How about not Russian speakers, 0%?

            > And again, the actual *content* of our liturgical
            > texts is neither
            > simple nor easily understood, in any language. Quite
            > often hearing
            > these texts in English only gives a feeling that the
            > language is
            > English -- not any immediate insight into the
            > meaning!

            If the services are that difficult to comprehend in
            English, why make it more difficult with Slavonic?

            > Furthermore, Western people, including Americans, of
            > non-Orthodox
            > background, have no problem following a service in a
            > book. This was the
            > general practice among Roman Catholics when the Mass
            > was in Latin!
            > Russians, on the other hand, do not feel at home
            > trying to use books in
            > church.

            What do the former practices of the Roman Catholic
            Church have to do with the Orthodox idea of mission?
            SS Cyril and Methodius, St. Herman, et al were not
            creating bi-lingual prayer books and telling converts
            to "make do".


            > Many? That means you are aware he does
            > sometimes use English too.
            > The answer to the question is that many of the
            > listeners speak Russian
            > as a first, or perhaps only, language.

            Quite frankly, many Russians in America and Europe
            can speak English. If they are living and working
            here, chances are they are able to grasp the language.
            If sermons are given in Russian though because a
            clergyman believes it will be more edifying for his
            primarily Russian speaking flock, that clergyman
            should understand that it is the equivalent to putting
            a "not welcome" sign on the door for inquirers.

            > Our churches today are packed with new people from
            > Russia. These people
            > are often like children in their approach to the
            > Church. The American
            > converts and "interested non-Orthodox" usually have
            > an entirely
            > different psychological outlook, and come already
            > prepared to hear
            > another language.

            I know many Russians in the OCA who have no problem
            with English as a liturgical language. Like I said
            before, they are living, working, and raising families
            here and are learning or already able to understand
            the language. Should Americans "be prepared" to hear
            another language in the Orthodox Churches, or should
            the Russians/Greeks, etc. be prepared to hear the
            language of their new countries? If you believe
            Russians won't come to a church with non-Slavonic
            services, I can't agree- I've seen many, many Russians
            at all English parishes doing just fine. Why the fear
            of Russians not being interested, but not of
            Americans/Europeans not being interested in foreign
            language services?

            >
            > They know where they have come -- and why!

            Yes, and that may be why you get some strange birds
            and rusophiles attending all Slavonic services, while
            it seems some more "adjusted" folk have the good sense
            to attend services they can understand.


            > That is why even non-Orthodox seminaries teach New
            > Testament Greek to
            > their students: because a translation never gives
            > you every nuance of
            > the original!

            That is fine for academia, and should be
            encouraged. But, when has this ever been the norm for
            the average Orthodox parishioner? What enenlighteners
            of new lands have told the people "learn the
            Greek/Slavonic, after 10 years you'll really
            appreciate the nuances!" Also, if you're saying that
            translations don't give the correct "nuances", perhaps
            the Russian parishes should start using Greek, as they
            are only working from translations.
            >
            > But remember this, that before Vatican II, Roman
            > Catholic seminarians
            > had to learn to speak and write Latin fluently.

            Again, what do the practices of the Roman Church
            have to do with the Orthodox?

            > Latin is not a modern spoken language. Nobody speaks
            > it except
            > scholars.

            > But it was (to some extent may still be) a valuable
            > "lingua frfrancafor
            > priests.

            If priests want to learn it, that's fine. The average
            "Joe" or even "Ivan" shouldn't be required to take up
            linguistics classes of a 9th century Bulgarian dialect
            in order to worship properly.



            > Perhaps some day you will take a vacation to Europe.
            > Munich may be
            > Munich to you, but if you go to the Russian churches
            > there, you will
            > feel that you are at home.

            Yes, I have felt at home in Russian churches, in
            Russia. This is true. But why don't Russians in
            Western Europe and America feel at home then with
            English services?

            > The truth is that due to its international
            > character, ROROCORses
            > Russian as a "lingua frfranca and in my days at
            > JoJordanvillewe had
            > students from other countries who did not speak
            > English, or only spoke
            > it poorly -- but who were at home conversing with
            > one another in
            > Russian.

            This does make sense to me.


            > Fr. John R. Shaw

            Thank you father for your response. I do not mean to
            come across as rude or confrontational, but this is an
            issue that I have personally been wrestling with.







            __________________________________
            Do you Yahoo!?
            Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
            http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
          • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
            ... Where in the world do you get this idea? The verb zdravstvovat -- literally meaning to be healthy is a word in literary contemporary Russian--it is
            Message 5 of 19 , May 2 7:34 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:


              >For the List, let me mention that the well known USSR slogan so many
              >million times repeated "Da zdrazstvuyet Kommunisticheskaya partiya"
              >(Long live the communist party) is in Slavonic, not Russian.

              Where in the world do you get this idea?

              The verb "zdravstvovat'"-- literally meaning "to be healthy" is a word in
              literary contemporary Russian--it is found in every Russian dictionary.

              The use of the word "da" as a conjunction, meaning "pust'" -- "let" is part
              of literary Russian, also found in every Russian dictionary.

              If a Russian says: "Da zhivet on mnogiye gody," he is not speaking Church
              Slavonic, but Russian.

              The form "Da zdravstvuyet. . ." is, to my knowledge, not found in the
              Slavonic texts of the Holy Scripture, or in the Church liturgical texts.

              It is the correct, current way to say "Long live . . .".

              In Russian.

              And, just because a word occurs both in Church Slavonic and in literary
              Russian, doesn't make one speak Slavonic when one uses the word.

              When a Russian uses the word "dom"("house") is he speaking Slavonic or Russian?

              Soon we will be told that when a Russian says "hello"-- "zdravstvujte" he
              is not really speaking Russian.

              Ridiculous.

              With love in Christ,

              Prot. Alexander Lebedeff





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • vkozyreff
              Dear Father John, bless. What I mean is that the communist would never have chosen a language that was not clear to all Russians. Moreover, the Slavonic
              Message 6 of 19 , May 2 7:49 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Father John, bless.

                What I mean is that the communist would never have chosen a language
                that was not clear to all Russians. Moreover, the Slavonic language
                has a "torzhestviennost" (majestic-ness) that the Russian language
                does not have. The Communists wanted to take advantage of it. This
                topic was discussed here, about the various types of English
                languages (St James's etc.)

                The majestic character of the language is also among the reasons why
                it is so precious to the orthodox and so loved by them. As one
                knows, the communists wanted to replace our faith by theirs (anti-
                Christ, instead of Christ).

                In addition, the Slavonic language is used to create new Russian
                words, like "mlekopitayuscheye" (mammal).

                The Slavic languages are very close to one another, like the
                Scandinavian ones. In my previous work, I used to speak in Russian
                to Bulgarians and Macedonians, while they would reply in their
                language and everything was clear. The Slavonic language is
                particularly close to the Bulgarian-Macedonian languages. The
                Slavonic language is a perfect common language for the Slavic
                orthodox.

                In some liturgical books for Russians, for instance, the Slavonic
                text is accompanied by footnotes, for places that would supposedly
                not be clear for Russians. Actually, most of those notes are
                superfluous.

                In French speaking countries, the French language of many past
                centuries ("vieux fran├žais"), in spite of being significantly
                different from the present French, is nevertheless perfectly
                understandable by prent French speaking people.

                In God,

                Vladimir Kozyreff





                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                > Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
                >
                > > For the List, let me mention that the well known USSR slogan so
                many
                > > million times repeated "Da zdrazstvuyet Kommunisticheskaya
                partiya"
                > > (Long live the communist party) is in Slavonic, not Russian.
                >
                > JRS: Are you saying that the language used would make any
                difference in
                > such a case?
                >
                > Although, in Egyptian hieroglyphs, at least not everyone would
                have to
                > know what it said...
                >
                > In Christ
                > Fr. John R. Shaw
              • DDD
                Just some thoughts here, Stephen. As a convert, I used to think like that when I first came to Orthodoxy. I initially came in through a NC Greek parish (the
                Message 7 of 19 , May 2 2:50 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Just some thoughts here, Stephen. As a convert, I used to think like that when I first came to Orthodoxy. I initially came in through a NC Greek parish (the only church labelled Orthodox in that city). They asked, "You Grik?" I asked, "Why don't you have the services in English?" They asked, "Why don't you Americans build yourself a church like we did?"

                  1) In all humility, we Americans need to think about that a lot. There are *two* contexts in America or anywhere:
                  1) Churches built by Russians for Russians
                  2) Missionary churches built by Russians or by Americans for Americans.

                  2) The Russian churches built here *by Russians* were mainly built as Diaspora churches--not missionary churches, to serve the Russians in the Diaspora. Therefore, the Russians have every right to have their services in Slavonic, as they are accustomed, and as they would have them if they were in Russia. We Americans need to respect that.

                  3) *In that context,* as Fr. John pointed out, an American will never really (fully) understand the Russian Church Abroad unless he learns Russian, first, because there are so many publications that have not been translated into English, second, so as to communicate with Russians better and not have a "church within a Church" that has no contact with or understanding of its main Church (Russian OCOR), The latter is very, very important.

                  4) In that context, Russians are very welcoming to Americans joining their Church.

                  5) As far as missionary parishes go, I think the ideal would be to have the priest, at least, be fluent in both Russian and English--the former so he could be thoroughly acquainted with all the literature and goings on and spirit of the Church Abroad, and the latter so he could effectively communicate that to his parishioners, who could then just speak English.

                  6) It would be very good, even in missionary English parishes, if there were Russian/Slavonic classes held, so that there would not be the large gap between English-speaking converts and native Russians. If Russians can learn English, why can't we learn Russian?

                  7) It would be good for us to take a good look at exactly what St. Patriarch Tikhon (before he was Patriarch and while he was Bishop in America) was dealing with that situation. For example, I know he had blessed a Western-Rite-modified to be completely Orthodox-for America. He was doing bona fide missionary activity in America before the Revolution broke out, and we could learn a lot by finding out how he dealt with the issue.

                  Got to go now, but if anyone has more information on #7, I'd be interested.

                  --Dimitra

                  On 1 May 2004 16:42:15 -0000, orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                  From: Stephen Reske <stephen_reske@...>
                  Subject: The Mission of the Church Abroad?

                  One often sees the mission of the Church Abroad
                  defined by these two principles:

                  #1 To keep intact the Orthodox faith and tradition of
                  the historically autocephalous Russian Orthodox
                  Church.
                  #2 To carry the Orthodox faith to all countries where
                  Russians have emigrated.

                  Now, being that 1/3 or more of the Church Abroad is
                  comprised of converts to the Orthodox faith, and
                  probably another third are children and grandchildren
                  of Russian/Slavic immigrants; coupled with the
                  fact that according to many in ROCOR the Russian
                  Church in Russia is being revived in a patristic
                  manner, shouldn't these
                  principles be revised somewhat? Not that they should
                  be scrapped completely of course, but perhaps a third
                  should be added stating something like: "To bring the
                  Gospel to the non-Orthodox..." etc. This mission of
                  bringing the Orthodox faith to the non-Orthodox, which
                  all Orthodox are called to do, is already underway in
                  the Church Abroad...but who can say this is happening
                  as fully as it could be, or as fully as some of
                  ROCOR's neighbors are doing it? I suppose what I'm
                  leading up to is a question- is ROCOR (perhaps I mean
                  the hierarchy?) as concerned as they should be with
                  ministering to the people they find as their
                  neighbors?

                  Does ROCOR want the non-Orthodox to become members of
                  ROCOR? If so, why do the majority of the larger ROCOR
                  parishes/cathedrals conduct services almost entirely
                  in Church Slavonic(which the Russians don't even fully
                  understand!), with the sermon sometimes being
                  in Russian? Why does the
                  Metropolitan give many of his sermons in Russian? How
                  are American priests expected to be trained at a
                  seminary, in the tradition of the Church Abroad, where
                  classes are conducted primarily in Russian? As
                  faithful followers of St. Tikhon and St. Herman, why
                  does the missionary fervor of these saints sometimes
                  appear to be put on the "back burner" in ROCOR? How
                  does ROCOR, which still sees itself as a "church in
                  exile" from Russia, expect to respond to the
                  missionary call of the Church in a dynamic way? How
                  can a Church of the "diaspora" which sees its true
                  motherland as Russia(though a huge number of ROCOR's
                  faithful have never lived in Russia) ever not be a
                  static Church, hearkening back to bygone days- afraid
                  to confront a pluralistic modern world? The modern
                  world will not be spiritually satisfied with a
                  re-created facade of Holy Rus or Byzantium. ROCOR has
                  been outside Russia for nearly 100 years. The original
                  goal of the first members of the Synod was to return
                  to Russia in their lifetimes, as they did not expect
                  the Communist regime to last. How then, 80 years
                  later, can ROCOR still be using the same terminology
                  of "motherland" and "in exile", which reveals a
                  certain mindset. There will be no great return to
                  Russia for the vast majority of ROCOR's faithful- why
                  not accept this and begin to more fully engage with
                  the various countries where the "diaspora" finds
                  itself?

                  I wonder if the restoration of relations between ROCOR
                  and the MP will help make ROCOR more concerned with
                  the responsibility of preaching the Gospel to their
                  non-Orthodox neighbors... I certainly hope so. Maybe
                  after communion is established ROCOR will see that
                  they have in fact maintained the traditions of the
                  pre-revolutionary Russian Church and kept them in tact
                  for the Post-Soviet Russian faithful. They may see
                  that part of their mission has been accomplished and
                  now new steps can be taken to broaden their horizons a
                  bit. If
                  ROCOR were to take up this mission more fully, I'm
                  sure America and Europe would see ROCOR blossom and
                  grow like never before. Westerners are hungry for the
                  Orthodoxy of the Church Abroad, but the way it is
                  currently presented many places in ROCOR
                  makes it largely inaccessible to Westerners: Slavonic
                  services, seminaries and colloquia which teach in
                  Russian, Russian sermons, the "silvered glance" to the
                  old days, etc. If ROCOR is solely for Russians and
                  those who wish to "become" Russian, this should be
                  made more evident. If this is not the case, then ROCOR
                  should be opening its arms to the non-Orthodox more
                  fully.
                  It seems a good number of convert and "cradle" ROCOR
                  priests frequent this list, perhaps they could speak
                  on this.

                  In Christ,
                  Stephen
                • Paul O. BARTLETT
                  ... I presume, then, that western Orthodox priests should know Latin? After all, the heritage of western Orthodoxy was transmitted in Latin, not Greek or
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 2 4:35 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Sat, 1 May 2004, Joachim Wertz wrote:

                    > [much trimmed] Personally I think that
                    > all priests of any liturgical tradition should at least be able to read the
                    > respective liturgical language of their Churches and traditions.

                    I presume, then, that western Orthodox priests should know Latin?
                    After all, the heritage of western Orthodoxy was transmitted in Latin,
                    not Greek or Slavonic. There are Orthodox Christians (in ROCOR itself,
                    if my information is correct) who celebrate a western Liturgy (which
                    some of them may even call Mass, horror of horrors) rather than the
                    Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil. The Latin Liturgy of
                    St. Gregory the Great and Gregorian and Ambrosian chant have ancient
                    Orthodox roots. For all I know, there may be Orthodox monks who
                    follow the Rule of St. Benedict, who as nearly as I can tell was a
                    great Orthodox saint.

                    --
                    Paul Bartlett
                    bartlett "at" smart "dot" net
                    PGP key info in message headers
                  • frvboldewskul@aol.com
                    In a message dated 5/2/04 7:35:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... This question was posed to Fr. John, but I wish to give my two cents on this one point. As
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 2 7:56 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      In a message dated 5/2/04 7:35:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                      stephen_reske@... writes:

                      > .
                      >
                      > Father, when I woke up this morning I couldn't help
                      > but notice I'm living in the year 2004 and that my
                      > neighbors primarily speak English here in America. Are
                      > you suggesting American and European converts should
                      > learn Church Slavonic in order to fully participate in
                      > Divine Services?
                      >
                      >

                      This question was posed to Fr. John, but I wish to give my two cents on this
                      one point. As noted by someone else in a post this afternoon, many of our
                      parishes were founded by individuals with the intent that the language used be
                      Church Slavonic. For example, in my parish in Cleveland, my people would have
                      become members of one of the other 29 Orthodox Churches here, if it wasn't for
                      this question (more so than calendar). We are a Church Slavonic parish that
                      serves parts in English. This means we lose good people, and gain good people.
                      But in a parish that I am starting in Sandusky OH, that parish will probably be
                      at least 90 percent in English. In my parish in Columbus, we use a mix of
                      50/50, although that depends on who is serving. (When Liturgy is not served, the
                      Reader services are nearly all in English). So the issue is parish make-up. St.
                      Sergius Parish in Cleveland is not made of 33 percent of converts, although I
                      am pleased that in the last few years I have baptized three American converts
                      who are faithful to the Church. I doubt that this answers the question, but I
                      suggest considering this one point: each parish is different with its own
                      history, for better or for worse. This history cannot be ignored and each priest
                      needs to know his parish. There is no common formula that works in all places.

                      Priest Victor Boldewskul


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Fr. John R. Shaw
                      ... itself, ... JRS: Quite so. But the more you know, the better off you are! So, even for Western Rite priests, a little familiarity with things Slavonic
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 3 5:45 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Paul Bartlett wrote:

                        > I presume, then, that western Orthodox priests should know Latin?
                        > After all, the heritage of western Orthodoxy was transmitted in Latin,
                        > not Greek or Slavonic. There are Orthodox Christians (in ROCOR
                        itself,
                        > if my information is correct) who celebrate a western Liturgy...

                        JRS: Quite so.

                        But the more you know, the better off you are! So, even for Western
                        Rite priests, a little familiarity with things Slavonic can't hurt...

                        In Christ
                        Fr. John R. Shaw
                      • Joachim Wertz
                        I have myself attended a Western Rite Liturgy in a church that is in ROCOR, and there were parts of the Liturgy (Mass) that were read in Latin. I would say
                        Message 11 of 19 , May 3 9:38 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I have myself attended a Western Rite Liturgy in a church that is in ROCOR,
                          and there were parts of the Liturgy (Mass) that were read in Latin. I would
                          say that it would not be a bad idea if these Western Rite ROCOR clergy did
                          know how to read Latin. I suspect that some at least, do. It wouldn't hurt.
                          In my previous posting I wrote merely "read" the traditional liturgical
                          language. I should have said "read for comprehension", and not just
                          pronounce the services in said language. I can pronounce the Greek services,
                          but my comprehension of the Greek liturgical language is less than 20%. It
                          is my opinion that it is in a priest's best interest to know the traditional
                          liturgical language (and even the modern language spoken by his Bishop), at
                          least for his safeguarding against misunderstandings. No, I am not proposing
                          that clergy be re-educated or that clergy wishing to join another
                          jurisdiction should be subjected to a linguistic "litmus test". I was only
                          speaking of an ideal and pointing out that there still is much work to be
                          done in translating texts into languages that are not traditionally
                          Orthodox. Then we could go into the issue of *which* translations should be
                          standard!

                          Christ is Risen!

                          Joachim Wertz


                          From: "Paul O. BARTLETT" <bartlett@...>
                          Organization: SmartNet Private Account
                          Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 19:35:24 -0400 (EDT)
                          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] The Mission of the Church Abroad?


                          On Sat, 1 May 2004, Joachim Wertz wrote:

                          > [much trimmed] Personally I think that
                          > all priests of any liturgical tradition should at least be able to read the
                          > respective liturgical language of their Churches and traditions.

                          I presume, then, that western Orthodox priests should know Latin?
                          After all, the heritage of western Orthodoxy was transmitted in Latin,
                          not Greek or Slavonic. There are Orthodox Christians (in ROCOR itself,
                          if my information is correct) who celebrate a western Liturgy (which
                          some of them may even call Mass, horror of horrors) rather than the
                          Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil. The Latin Liturgy of
                          St. Gregory the Great and Gregorian and Ambrosian chant have ancient
                          Orthodox roots. For all I know, there may be Orthodox monks who
                          follow the Rule of St. Benedict, who as nearly as I can tell was a
                          great Orthodox saint.

                          --
                          Paul Bartlett
                          bartlett "at" smart "dot" net
                          PGP key info in message headers



                          Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod




                          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
                          var lrec_target="_top"; var lrec_URL = new Array(); lrec_URL[1] =
                          "http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12909lgb1/M=295196.4901138.6050264.3001176/D=groups
                          /S=1705074598:HM/EXP=1083638150/A=1894283/R=0/id=flashurl/SIG=118tuuldn/*htt
                          p://companion.yahoo.com/?.cpdl=srch"; var
                          link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)"; var lrec_flashfile =
                          'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ya/yahoo_companion/broom_lrec.swf?click
                          TAG='+link+''; var lrec_altURL =
                          "http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12909lgb1/M=295196.4901138.6050264.3001176/D=groups
                          /S=1705074598:HM/EXP=1083638150/A=1894283/R=1/id=altimgurl/SIG=118tuuldn/*ht
                          tp://companion.yahoo.com/?.cpdl=srch"; var lrec_altimg =
                          "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ya/yahoo_companion/lrec.gif"; var
                          lrec_width = 300; var lrec_height = 250;




                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                          To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-synod/

                          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          orthodox-synod-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          <mailto:orthodox-synod-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                          <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Paul O. BARTLETT
                          ... How many day to day (non-specialist) Russian or other Slavic Orthodox priests know Greek? After all, Slavonic ritual books themselves were translated
                          Message 12 of 19 , May 3 5:33 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On Mon, 3 May 2004, Fr. John R. Shaw wrote:

                            > Paul Bartlett wrote:
                            >
                            > > I presume, then, that western Orthodox priests should know Latin?
                            > > After all, the heritage of western Orthodoxy was transmitted in Latin,
                            > > not Greek or Slavonic. There are Orthodox Christians (in ROCOR itself,
                            > > if my information is correct) who celebrate a western Liturgy...
                            >
                            > JRS: Quite so.
                            >
                            > But the more you know, the better off you are! So, even for Western
                            > Rite priests, a little familiarity with things Slavonic can't hurt...

                            How many "day to day" (non-specialist) Russian or other Slavic
                            Orthodox priests know Greek? After all, Slavonic ritual books
                            themselves were translated originally from Greek. (Of course, later
                            services may have been composed in Slavonic, but I am not aware that
                            the Divine Liturgies themselves were.) "So, even for [Eastern] Rite
                            priests, a little familiarity with things [Greek] can't hurt".

                            --
                            Paul Bartlett
                            bartlett "at" smart "dot" net
                            PGP key info in message headers
                          • Fr. John R. Shaw
                            X.B.! ... JRS: It would be hard to determine how *well* they know Greek, but nevertheless, Greek is a required subject in the seminary. When I was a student at
                            Message 13 of 19 , May 4 4:30 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              X.B.!

                              Paul Bartlett wrote:

                              > How many "day to day" (non-specialist) Russian or other Slavic
                              > Orthodox priests know Greek? After all, Slavonic ritual books
                              > themselves were translated originally from Greek. (Of course, later
                              > services may have been composed in Slavonic, but I am not aware that
                              > the Divine Liturgies themselves were.) "So, even for [Eastern] Rite
                              > priests, a little familiarity with things [Greek] can't hurt".

                              JRS: It would be hard to determine how *well* they know Greek, but
                              nevertheless, Greek is a required subject in the seminary.

                              When I was a student at Jordanville, not only were we required to learn
                              Greek, but once a year, on the feast of the Three Hierarchs, the Divine
                              Liturgy was sung in Greek (but following the Russian Typicon).

                              When there are Greek-speakers in church, I sometimes say certain
                              prayers in Greek for their benefit (e.g. the prayers before communion).
                              Our chanter, who knows both Slavonic and Greek, will also sometimes
                              sing chants in the original Greek.

                              Everything depends on who attends a given service.

                              In Christ
                              Fr. John R. Shaw
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.