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Re: The Mission of the Church Abroad?

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  • vkozyreff
    Dear Father John, bless. For the List, let me mention that the well known USSR slogan so many million times repeated Da zdrazstvuyet Kommunisticheskaya
    Message 1 of 19 , May 1, 2004
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      Dear Father John, bless.

      For the List, let me mention that the well known USSR slogan so many
      million times repeated "Da zdrazstvuyet Kommunisticheskaya partiya"
      (Long live the communist party) is in Slavonic, not Russian.

      In God,

      Vladimir Kozyreff


      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
      <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
      >
      > X.B.!
      >
      > Regarding:
      >
      > > Does ROCOR want the non-Orthodox to become members of
      > > ROCOR? If so, why do the majority of the larger ROCOR
      > > parishes/cathedrals conduct services almost entirely
      > > in Church Slavonic(which the Russians don't even fully
      > > understand!), with the sermon sometimes being
      > > in Russian?
      >
      > JRS: To begin with, remember that ROCOR does stand for "Russian
      > Orthodox Church Outside Russia".
      >
      > ROCOR is not simply an American Church: it is an international
      Church,
      > and Russian roots are what bind it together.
      >
      > Yes, Russians only half-understand Church Slavonic, *unless they
      have
      > been taught Slavonic*.
      >
      > Before the revolution, all primary and secondary schools in Russia
      > taught at least the beginnings of Church Slavonic, just as
      Slavonic
      > used to be taught in schools in Serbia and Bulgaria, before the
      > communist period.
      >
      > But people who are active in the Church usually do have some
      knowledge
      > of Slavonic. Thus for example many Slavonic expressions have been
      taken
      > over into modern Russian, such as "Vo vremja ono" (the usual
      beginning
      > of Gospel readings).
      >
      > But then, the King James Bible is much more recent than Church
      > Slavonic, is still considered "modern English", but people have to
      get
      > used to it also.
      >
      > And again, the actual *content* of our liturgical texts is neither
      > simple nor easily understood, in any language. Quite often hearing
      > these texts in English only gives a feeling that the language is
      > English -- not any immediate insight into the meaning!
      >
      > Furthermore, Western people, including Americans, of non-Orthodox
      > background, have no problem following a service in a book. This
      was the
      > general practice among Roman Catholics when the Mass was in Latin!
      > Russians, on the other hand, do not feel at home trying to use
      books in
      > church.
      >
      > > Why does the
      > > Metropolitan give many of his sermons in Russian?
      >
      > JRS: Many? That means you are aware he does sometimes use English
      too.
      > The answer to the question is that many of the listeners speak
      Russian
      > as a first, or perhaps only, language.
      >
      > Our churches today are packed with new people from Russia. These
      people
      > are often like children in their approach to the Church. The
      American
      > converts and "interested non-Orthodox" usually have an entirely
      > different psychological outlook, and come already prepared to hear
      > another language.
      >
      > They know where they have come -- and why!
      >
      > > How
      > > are American priests expected to be trained at a
      > > seminary, in the tradition of the Church Abroad, where
      > > classes are conducted primarily in Russian?
      >
      > JRS: To begin with, the only way they can expect to enter
      into "the
      > tradition of the Church Abroad", is by learning Russian as well as
      they
      > can.
      >
      > That is why even non-Orthodox seminaries teach New Testament Greek
      to
      > their students: because a translation never gives you every nuance
      of
      > the original!
      >
      > But remember this, that before Vatican II, Roman Catholic
      seminarians
      > had to learn to speak and write Latin fluently.
      >
      > Latin is not a modern spoken language. Nobody speaks it except
      > scholars.
      >
      > But it was (to some extent may still be) a valuable "lingua
      franca" for
      > priests.
      >
      > In the same way, once you know Russian, and are used to the
      Slavonic
      > Liturgy, you can go to, and feel quite at home in, a Russian
      Orthodox
      > church anywhere in the world.
      >
      > Perhaps some day you will take a vacation to Europe. Munich may be
      > Munich to you, but if you go to the Russian churches there, you
      will
      > feel that you are at home.
      >
      > The truth is that due to its international character, ROCOR uses
      > Russian as a "lingua franca", and in my days at Jordanville, we
      had
      > students from other countries who did not speak English, or only
      spoke
      > it poorly -- but who were at home conversing with one another in
      > Russian.
      >
      > In Christ
      > Fr. John R. Shaw
    • Joachim Wertz
      Church Slavonic is not limited to the Divine Liturgy and other well-known services. Just as Orthodoxy is not limited to the services. There is a treasure trove
      Message 2 of 19 , May 1, 2004
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        Church Slavonic is not limited to the Divine Liturgy and other well-known
        services. Just as Orthodoxy is not limited to the services. There is a
        treasure trove of prayers, theological works, lives of saints and other
        righteous, and even services that have never been translated into English.
        St. Vladimir's Seminary, for example, has a large collection of theological
        literature in Church Slavonic, including many pre-revolutionary journals and
        periodicals. Alas, I am pretty sure that most of them seminarians there
        can't read them. I, a layman and a convert, do read Church Slavonic. I went
        out of my way to learn it. Actually I think it is easier than Russian or
        Serbian (which I have also studied and read) because there are no
        colloquialisms, slang, conversational language, etc. Personally I think that
        all priests of any liturgical tradition should at least be able to read the
        respective liturgical language of their Churches and traditions.

        Joachim Wertz

        From: "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...>
        Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 16:46:34 -0400
        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] The Mission of the Church Abroad?



        X.B.!

        Regarding:

        > Does ROCOR want the non-Orthodox to become members of
        > ROCOR? If so, why do the majority of the larger ROCOR
        > parishes/cathedrals conduct services almost entirely
        > in Church Slavonic(which the Russians don't even fully
        > understand!), with the sermon sometimes being
        > in Russian?

        JRS: To begin with, remember that ROCOR does stand for "Russian
        Orthodox Church Outside Russia".

        ROCOR is not simply an American Church: it is an international Church,
        and Russian roots are what bind it together.

        Yes, Russians only half-understand Church Slavonic, *unless they have
        been taught Slavonic*.

        Before the revolution, all primary and secondary schools in Russia
        taught at least the beginnings of Church Slavonic, just as Slavonic
        used to be taught in schools in Serbia and Bulgaria, before the
        communist period.

        But people who are active in the Church usually do have some knowledge
        of Slavonic. Thus for example many Slavonic expressions have been taken
        over into modern Russian, such as "Vo vremja ono" (the usual beginning
        of Gospel readings).

        But then, the King James Bible is much more recent than Church
        Slavonic, is still considered "modern English", but people have to get
        used to it also.

        And again, the actual *content* of our liturgical texts is neither
        simple nor easily understood, in any language. Quite often hearing
        these texts in English only gives a feeling that the language is
        English -- not any immediate insight into the meaning!

        Furthermore, Western people, including Americans, of non-Orthodox
        background, have no problem following a service in a book. This was the
        general practice among Roman Catholics when the Mass was in Latin!
        Russians, on the other hand, do not feel at home trying to use books in
        church.

        > Why does the
        > Metropolitan give many of his sermons in Russian?

        JRS: Many? That means you are aware he does sometimes use English too.
        The answer to the question is that many of the listeners speak Russian
        as a first, or perhaps only, language.

        Our churches today are packed with new people from Russia. These people
        are often like children in their approach to the Church. The American
        converts and "interested non-Orthodox" usually have an entirely
        different psychological outlook, and come already prepared to hear
        another language.

        They know where they have come -- and why!

        > How
        > are American priests expected to be trained at a
        > seminary, in the tradition of the Church Abroad, where
        > classes are conducted primarily in Russian?

        JRS: To begin with, the only way they can expect to enter into "the
        tradition of the Church Abroad", is by learning Russian as well as they
        can.

        That is why even non-Orthodox seminaries teach New Testament Greek to
        their students: because a translation never gives you every nuance of
        the original!

        But remember this, that before Vatican II, Roman Catholic seminarians
        had to learn to speak and write Latin fluently.

        Latin is not a modern spoken language. Nobody speaks it except
        scholars.

        But it was (to some extent may still be) a valuable "lingua franca" for
        priests.

        In the same way, once you know Russian, and are used to the Slavonic
        Liturgy, you can go to, and feel quite at home in, a Russian Orthodox
        church anywhere in the world.

        Perhaps some day you will take a vacation to Europe. Munich may be
        Munich to you, but if you go to the Russian churches there, you will
        feel that you are at home.

        The truth is that due to its international character, ROCOR uses
        Russian as a "lingua franca", and in my days at Jordanville, we had
        students from other countries who did not speak English, or only spoke
        it poorly -- but who were at home conversing with one another in
        Russian.

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw



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      • larry most
        CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN Dear Father John, You have given a very good reply, but I in all humility, disagree with you. Many, many people, when they
        Message 3 of 19 , May 1, 2004
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          CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN
          Dear Father John,
          You have given a very good reply, but I in all
          humility, disagree with you. Many, many people, when
          they see "Russian Orthodox (Greek, Serbian,
          etc)Church, are sure that one must be Russian, etc to
          go there. Also, it is very hard to bring English
          speaking inquirers to a church that is doing
          everything in a language that they don't understand.
          And again, if one can learn a language to earn a
          living, one should be able to learn the language to
          worship. Now that doesn't mean that I never want to
          hear Slavonic at Church, I do, but I don't think that
          one MUST learn Russian (or Greek, Serbian, etc,) to be
          Orthodox.
          Love in Christ,
          Sub-deacon Lawrence
          --- "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
          >
          > X.B.!
          >
          > Regarding:
          >
          > > Does ROCOR want the non-Orthodox to become members
          > of
          > > ROCOR? If so, why do the majority of the larger
          > ROCOR
          > > parishes/cathedrals conduct services almost
          > entirely
          > > in Church Slavonic(which the Russians don't even
          > fully
          > > understand!), with the sermon sometimes being
          > > in Russian?
          >
          > JRS: To begin with, remember that ROCOR does stand
          > for "Russian
          > Orthodox Church Outside Russia".
          >
          > ROCOR is not simply an American Church: it is an
          > international Church,
          > and Russian roots are what bind it together.
          >
          > Yes, Russians only half-understand Church Slavonic,
          > *unless they have
          > been taught Slavonic*.
          >
          > Before the revolution, all primary and secondary
          > schools in Russia
          > taught at least the beginnings of Church Slavonic,
          > just as Slavonic
          > used to be taught in schools in Serbia and Bulgaria,
          > before the
          > communist period.
          >
          > But people who are active in the Church usually do
          > have some knowledge
          > of Slavonic. Thus for example many Slavonic
          > expressions have been taken
          > over into modern Russian, such as "Vo vremja ono"
          > (the usual beginning
          > of Gospel readings).
          >
          > But then, the King James Bible is much more recent
          > than Church
          > Slavonic, is still considered "modern English", but
          > people have to get
          > used to it also.
          >
          > And again, the actual *content* of our liturgical
          > texts is neither
          > simple nor easily understood, in any language. Quite
          > often hearing
          > these texts in English only gives a feeling that the
          > language is
          > English -- not any immediate insight into the
          > meaning!
          >
          > Furthermore, Western people, including Americans, of
          > non-Orthodox
          > background, have no problem following a service in a
          > book. This was the
          > general practice among Roman Catholics when the Mass
          > was in Latin!
          > Russians, on the other hand, do not feel at home
          > trying to use books in
          > church.
          >
          > > Why does the
          > > Metropolitan give many of his sermons in Russian?
          >
          > JRS: Many? That means you are aware he does
          > sometimes use English too.
          > The answer to the question is that many of the
          > listeners speak Russian
          > as a first, or perhaps only, language.
          >
          > Our churches today are packed with new people from
          > Russia. These people
          > are often like children in their approach to the
          > Church. The American
          > converts and "interested non-Orthodox" usually have
          > an entirely
          > different psychological outlook, and come already
          > prepared to hear
          > another language.
          >
          > They know where they have come -- and why!
          >
          > > How
          > > are American priests expected to be trained at a
          > > seminary, in the tradition of the Church Abroad,
          > where
          > > classes are conducted primarily in Russian?
          >
          > JRS: To begin with, the only way they can expect to
          > enter into "the
          > tradition of the Church Abroad", is by learning
          > Russian as well as they
          > can.
          >
          > That is why even non-Orthodox seminaries teach New
          > Testament Greek to
          > their students: because a translation never gives
          > you every nuance of
          > the original!
          >
          > But remember this, that before Vatican II, Roman
          > Catholic seminarians
          > had to learn to speak and write Latin fluently.
          >
          > Latin is not a modern spoken language. Nobody speaks
          > it except
          > scholars.
          >
          > But it was (to some extent may still be) a valuable
          > "lingua franca" for
          > priests.
          >
          > In the same way, once you know Russian, and are used
          > to the Slavonic
          > Liturgy, you can go to, and feel quite at home in, a
          > Russian Orthodox
          > church anywhere in the world.
          >
          > Perhaps some day you will take a vacation to Europe.
          > Munich may be
          > Munich to you, but if you go to the Russian churches
          > there, you will
          > feel that you are at home.
          >
          > The truth is that due to its international
          > character, ROCOR uses
          > Russian as a "lingua franca", and in my days at
          > Jordanville, we had
          > students from other countries who did not speak
          > English, or only spoke
          > it poorly -- but who were at home conversing with
          > one another in
          > Russian.
          >
          > In Christ
          > Fr. John R. Shaw
          >
          >




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        • Stephen Reske
          ... Indeed He is Risen! Thank you for your reply, father. I do have a few questions though. ... Yes, of course. I wonder though...are liturgical language,
          Message 4 of 19 , May 1, 2004
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            --- "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrvrevjrsxexecpcom> wrote:
            >
            > X.B.!

            Indeed He is Risen!
            Thank you for your reply, father. I do have a few
            questions though.

            >
            > JRJRSTo begin with, remember that ROROCORoes stand
            > for "Russian
            > Orthodox Church Outside Russia".

            Yes, of course. I wonder though...are liturgical
            language, Russian sermons, and a seeming lack of
            desire to engage with your neighbors all
            nenecessitiesf being part of the Russian Church? St.
            Herman seemed to do a decent job of remaining
            perfectly in the Russia tradition while preaching to
            his neighbors and communicating in their language.

            > ROROCORs not simply an American Church: it is an
            > international Church,
            > and Russian roots are what bind it together.
            >

            Fair enough. The Russian Church which, in reality,
            has no real ties to Russia anymore.

            > Yes, Russians only half-understand Church Slavonic,
            > *unless they have
            > been taught Slavonic*.


            > Before the revolution, all primary and secondary
            > schools in Russia
            > taught at least the beginnings of Church Slavonic,
            > just as Slavonic
            > used to be taught in schools in Serbia and Bulgaria,
            > before the
            > communist period.

            Father, when I woke up this morning I couldn't help
            but notice I'm living in the year 2004 and that my
            neighbors primarily speak English here in America. Are
            you suggesting American and European converts should
            learn Church Slavonic in order to fully participate in
            Divine Services?

            > But people who are active in the Church usually do
            > have some knowledge
            > of Slavonic. Thus for example many Slavonic
            > expressions have been taken
            > over into modern Russian, such as "VoVorvremjanono
            > (the usual beginning
            > of Gospel readings).

            Yes, in Russian...and not many expressions, at that.



            > But then, the King James Bible is much more recent
            > than Church
            > Slavonic, is still considered "modern English", but
            > people have to get
            > used to it also.

            Indeed they do, but it is still recognizable
            English. Russians can understand what, 60% of Slavonic
            services? How about not Russian speakers, 0%?

            > And again, the actual *content* of our liturgical
            > texts is neither
            > simple nor easily understood, in any language. Quite
            > often hearing
            > these texts in English only gives a feeling that the
            > language is
            > English -- not any immediate insight into the
            > meaning!

            If the services are that difficult to comprehend in
            English, why make it more difficult with Slavonic?

            > Furthermore, Western people, including Americans, of
            > non-Orthodox
            > background, have no problem following a service in a
            > book. This was the
            > general practice among Roman Catholics when the Mass
            > was in Latin!
            > Russians, on the other hand, do not feel at home
            > trying to use books in
            > church.

            What do the former practices of the Roman Catholic
            Church have to do with the Orthodox idea of mission?
            SS Cyril and MeMethodiusSt. Herman, et alalwere not
            creating bi-lingual prayer books and telling converts
            to "make do".


            > JRJRSMany? That means you are aware he does
            > sometimes use English too.
            > The answer to the question is that many of the
            > listeners speak Russian
            > as a first, or perhaps only, language.

            Quite frankly, many Russians in America and Europe
            can speak English. If they are living and working
            here, chances are they are able to grasp the language.
            If sermons are given in Russian though because a
            clergyman believes it will be more edifying for his
            primarily Russian speaking flock, that clergyman
            should understand that it is the equivalent to putting
            a "not welcome" sign on the door for inquirers.

            > Our churches today are packed with new people from
            > Russia. These people
            > are often like children in their approach to the
            > Church. The American
            > converts and "interested non-Orthodox" usually have
            > an entirely
            > different psychological outlook, and come already
            > prepared to hear
            > another language.

            I know many Russians in the OCOCAho have no problem
            with English as a liturgical language. Like I said
            before, they are living, working, and raising families
            here and are learning or already able to understand
            the language. Should Americans "be prepared" to hear
            another language in the Orthodox Churches, or should
            the Russians/Greeks, etc. be prepared to hear the
            language of their new countries? If you believe
            Russians won't come to a church with non-Slavonic
            services, I can't agree- I've seen many, many Russians
            at all English parishes doing just fine. Why the fear
            of Russians not being interested, but not of
            Americans/Europeans not being interested in foreign
            language services?

            >
            > They know where they have come -- and why!

            Yes, and that may be why you get some strange birds
            and rurussophilesttending all Slavonic services, while
            it seems some more "adjusted" folk have the good sense
            to attend services they can understand.


            > That is why even non-Orthodox seminaries teach New
            > Testament Greek to
            > their students: because a translation never gives
            > you every nuance of
            > the original!

            That is fine for academia, and should be
            encouraged. But, when has this ever been the norm for
            the average Orthodox parishioner? What enenlightenersf
            new lands have told the people "learn the
            Greek/Slavonic, after a 10 years you'll really
            appreciate the nuances!" Also, if you're saying that
            translations don't give the correct "nuances", perhaps
            the Russian parishes should start using Greek, as they
            are only working from translations.
            >
            > But remember this, that before Vatican II, Roman
            > Catholic seminarians
            > had to learn to speak and write Latin fluently.

            Again, what do the practices of the Roman Church
            have to do with the Orthodox?

            > Latin is not a modern spoken language. Nobody speaks
            > it except
            > scholars.

            > But it was (to some extent may still be) a valuable
            > "lingua frfrancafor
            > priests.

            If priests want to learn it, that's fine. The average
            "Joe" or even "Ivan" shouldn't be required to take up
            linguistics classes of a 9th century Bulgarian dialect
            in order to worship properly.



            > Perhaps some day you will take a vacation to Europe.
            > Munich may be
            > Munich to you, but if you go to the Russian churches
            > there, you will
            > feel that you are at home.

            Yes, I have felt at home in Russian churches, in
            Russia. This is true. But why don't Russians in
            Western Europe and America feel at home then with
            English services?

            > The truth is that due to its international
            > character, ROROCORses
            > Russian as a "lingua frfranca and in my days at
            > JoJordanvillewe had
            > students from other countries who did not speak
            > English, or only spoke
            > it poorly -- but who were at home conversing with
            > one another in
            > Russian.

            This does make sense to me.


            > Fr. John R. Shaw

            Thank you father for your response. I do not mean to
            come across as rude or confrontational, but this is an
            issue that I have personally been wrestling with.




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          • for4z@aol.com
            There certainly is much to discuss concerning recent events in Russia. I pray, however, this vigilant watch exercised by some will not overshadow the
            Message 5 of 19 , May 1, 2004
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              There certainly is much to discuss concerning recent events in Russia. I pray, however, this vigilant watch exercised by some will not overshadow the attention required here at home by the flock of the Russian Church Abroad.

              I am aware of several instances when parishes/monastic communities were interested in joining our Church, or in fact did join, only to be neglected and forced to join other jurisdictions in their search of pastoral care and spiritual nourishment.

              With many of our priests devoting so much time and energy to reading and hypothesizing about current events in the Russian Federation, the rest of us who are fettered by busy, secular, American daily lives hope our pastors will not forget about us: their first and foremost responsibility. It reasons our ROCOR clergy will give an answer of how they cared for the people in their own parishes, not of those in Russia.

              I don’t believe Stephen was criticizing our Church’s practices directly, but rather wondering when ardent missionary zeal, made famous by the Russian Church on the North American and Asian continents, will be witnessed again.

              I hope I did not overstep any boundaries in voicing my, quite realistic, concern.

              -Nick Zaharov
              PS…regarding the spreading Orthodoxy, the first Orthodox church in Antarctica was recently built and consecrated. The Church was built by Russians and is cared for by the Spiritual Council of the Holy Trinity-St. Sergius Lavra. Bishop Theognost of Sergiev Posad, prior of the lavra, flew to Antarctica to perform the consecration. Photos can be seen at the lavra’s website: www.stsl.ru

              SIDE NOTE: The Patriarchate of Constantinople has officially broken eucharistic communion with the Orthodox Church of Greece, headed by Archbishop Chrystodolous.
            • Fr. John R. Shaw
              CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN ... JRS: This too is an entirely valid point. But the problem is quite involved, and the solution is not simply to switch
              Message 6 of 19 , May 2, 2004
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                CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN

                Regarding:

                > Many, many people, when
                > they see "Russian Orthodox (Greek, Serbian,
                > etc)Church, are sure that one must be Russian, etc to
                > go there. Also, it is very hard to bring English
                > speaking inquirers to a church that is doing
                > everything in a language that they don't understand.

                JRS: This too is an entirely valid point. But the problem is quite
                involved, and the solution is not simply to switch the Russian parishes
                over to English.

                Where possible, having one service in English and another in Slavonic
                has usually worked well. In our parish, since we can only have a single
                Divine Liturgy on any given day, we have the Scriptures in both
                languages, and two (different) sermons, one in Russian and the other in
                English (both reasonably short). Otherwise, the use of languages
                depends on who is present and what the circumstances are: for example,
                baptisms and weddings may be entirely in one or the other language.

                > And again, if one can learn a language to earn a
                > living, one should be able to learn the language to
                > worship. Now that doesn't mean that I never want to
                > hear Slavonic at Church, I do, but I don't think that
                > one MUST learn Russian (or Greek, Serbian, etc,) to be
                > Orthodox.

                JRS: I never said that one "must" -- but doing so can be very helpful!

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw
              • Fr. John R. Shaw
                ... JRS: Are you saying that the language used would make any difference in such a case? Although, in Egyptian hieroglyphs, at least not everyone would have to
                Message 7 of 19 , May 2, 2004
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                  Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:

                  > For the List, let me mention that the well known USSR slogan so many
                  > million times repeated "Da zdrazstvuyet Kommunisticheskaya partiya"
                  > (Long live the communist party) is in Slavonic, not Russian.

                  JRS: Are you saying that the language used would make any difference in
                  such a case?

                  Although, in Egyptian hieroglyphs, at least not everyone would have to
                  know what it said...

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw
                • Stephen Reske
                  ... Indeed He is Risen! Thank you for your reply, father. I do have a few questions though. ... Yes, of course. I wonder though...are liturgical language,
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 2, 2004
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                    ---- "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrvrevjrsxexecpcom> wrote:
                    >
                    > X.B.!

                    Indeed He is Risen!
                    Thank you for your reply, father. I do have a few
                    questions though.

                    >
                    > To begin with, remember that ROCOR stands
                    > for "Russian
                    > Orthodox Church Outside Russia".

                    Yes, of course. I wonder though...are liturgical
                    language, Russian sermons, and a seeming lack of
                    desire to engage with your neighbors all
                    nenecessitiesf being part of the Russian Church? St.
                    Herman seemed to do a decent job of remaining
                    perfectly in the Russia tradition while preaching to
                    his neighbors and communicating in their language.

                    > ROCOR is not simply an American Church: it is an
                    > international Church,
                    > and Russian roots are what bind it together.
                    >

                    Fair enough. The Russian Church which, in reality,
                    has no real ties to Russia anymore.

                    > Yes, Russians only half-understand Church Slavonic,
                    > *unless they have
                    > been taught Slavonic*.


                    > Before the revolution, all primary and secondary
                    > schools in Russia
                    > taught at least the beginnings of Church Slavonic,
                    > just as Slavonic
                    > used to be taught in schools in Serbia and Bulgaria,
                    > before the
                    > communist period.

                    Father, when I woke up this morning I couldn't help
                    but notice I'm living in the year 2004 and that my
                    neighbors primarily speak English here in America. Are
                    you suggesting American and European converts should
                    learn Church Slavonic in order to fully participate in
                    Divine Services?

                    > But people who are active in the Church usually do
                    > have some knowledge
                    > of Slavonic. Thus for example many Slavonic
                    > expressions have been taken
                    > over into modern Russian, such as "VoVorvremjanono
                    > (the usual beginning
                    > of Gospel readings).

                    Yes, in Russian...and not many expressions, at that.



                    > But then, the King James Bible is much more recent
                    > than Church
                    > Slavonic, is still considered "modern English", but
                    > people have to get
                    > used to it also.

                    Indeed they do, but it is still recognizable
                    English. Russians can understand what, 60% of Slavonic
                    services? How about not Russian speakers, 0%?

                    > And again, the actual *content* of our liturgical
                    > texts is neither
                    > simple nor easily understood, in any language. Quite
                    > often hearing
                    > these texts in English only gives a feeling that the
                    > language is
                    > English -- not any immediate insight into the
                    > meaning!

                    If the services are that difficult to comprehend in
                    English, why make it more difficult with Slavonic?

                    > Furthermore, Western people, including Americans, of
                    > non-Orthodox
                    > background, have no problem following a service in a
                    > book. This was the
                    > general practice among Roman Catholics when the Mass
                    > was in Latin!
                    > Russians, on the other hand, do not feel at home
                    > trying to use books in
                    > church.

                    What do the former practices of the Roman Catholic
                    Church have to do with the Orthodox idea of mission?
                    SS Cyril and Methodius, St. Herman, et al were not
                    creating bi-lingual prayer books and telling converts
                    to "make do".


                    > Many? That means you are aware he does
                    > sometimes use English too.
                    > The answer to the question is that many of the
                    > listeners speak Russian
                    > as a first, or perhaps only, language.

                    Quite frankly, many Russians in America and Europe
                    can speak English. If they are living and working
                    here, chances are they are able to grasp the language.
                    If sermons are given in Russian though because a
                    clergyman believes it will be more edifying for his
                    primarily Russian speaking flock, that clergyman
                    should understand that it is the equivalent to putting
                    a "not welcome" sign on the door for inquirers.

                    > Our churches today are packed with new people from
                    > Russia. These people
                    > are often like children in their approach to the
                    > Church. The American
                    > converts and "interested non-Orthodox" usually have
                    > an entirely
                    > different psychological outlook, and come already
                    > prepared to hear
                    > another language.

                    I know many Russians in the OCA who have no problem
                    with English as a liturgical language. Like I said
                    before, they are living, working, and raising families
                    here and are learning or already able to understand
                    the language. Should Americans "be prepared" to hear
                    another language in the Orthodox Churches, or should
                    the Russians/Greeks, etc. be prepared to hear the
                    language of their new countries? If you believe
                    Russians won't come to a church with non-Slavonic
                    services, I can't agree- I've seen many, many Russians
                    at all English parishes doing just fine. Why the fear
                    of Russians not being interested, but not of
                    Americans/Europeans not being interested in foreign
                    language services?

                    >
                    > They know where they have come -- and why!

                    Yes, and that may be why you get some strange birds
                    and rusophiles attending all Slavonic services, while
                    it seems some more "adjusted" folk have the good sense
                    to attend services they can understand.


                    > That is why even non-Orthodox seminaries teach New
                    > Testament Greek to
                    > their students: because a translation never gives
                    > you every nuance of
                    > the original!

                    That is fine for academia, and should be
                    encouraged. But, when has this ever been the norm for
                    the average Orthodox parishioner? What enenlighteners
                    of new lands have told the people "learn the
                    Greek/Slavonic, after 10 years you'll really
                    appreciate the nuances!" Also, if you're saying that
                    translations don't give the correct "nuances", perhaps
                    the Russian parishes should start using Greek, as they
                    are only working from translations.
                    >
                    > But remember this, that before Vatican II, Roman
                    > Catholic seminarians
                    > had to learn to speak and write Latin fluently.

                    Again, what do the practices of the Roman Church
                    have to do with the Orthodox?

                    > Latin is not a modern spoken language. Nobody speaks
                    > it except
                    > scholars.

                    > But it was (to some extent may still be) a valuable
                    > "lingua frfrancafor
                    > priests.

                    If priests want to learn it, that's fine. The average
                    "Joe" or even "Ivan" shouldn't be required to take up
                    linguistics classes of a 9th century Bulgarian dialect
                    in order to worship properly.



                    > Perhaps some day you will take a vacation to Europe.
                    > Munich may be
                    > Munich to you, but if you go to the Russian churches
                    > there, you will
                    > feel that you are at home.

                    Yes, I have felt at home in Russian churches, in
                    Russia. This is true. But why don't Russians in
                    Western Europe and America feel at home then with
                    English services?

                    > The truth is that due to its international
                    > character, ROROCORses
                    > Russian as a "lingua frfranca and in my days at
                    > JoJordanvillewe had
                    > students from other countries who did not speak
                    > English, or only spoke
                    > it poorly -- but who were at home conversing with
                    > one another in
                    > Russian.

                    This does make sense to me.


                    > Fr. John R. Shaw

                    Thank you father for your response. I do not mean to
                    come across as rude or confrontational, but this is an
                    issue that I have personally been wrestling with.







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                  • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
                    ... Where in the world do you get this idea? The verb zdravstvovat -- literally meaning to be healthy is a word in literary contemporary Russian--it is
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 2, 2004
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                      Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:


                      >For the List, let me mention that the well known USSR slogan so many
                      >million times repeated "Da zdrazstvuyet Kommunisticheskaya partiya"
                      >(Long live the communist party) is in Slavonic, not Russian.

                      Where in the world do you get this idea?

                      The verb "zdravstvovat'"-- literally meaning "to be healthy" is a word in
                      literary contemporary Russian--it is found in every Russian dictionary.

                      The use of the word "da" as a conjunction, meaning "pust'" -- "let" is part
                      of literary Russian, also found in every Russian dictionary.

                      If a Russian says: "Da zhivet on mnogiye gody," he is not speaking Church
                      Slavonic, but Russian.

                      The form "Da zdravstvuyet. . ." is, to my knowledge, not found in the
                      Slavonic texts of the Holy Scripture, or in the Church liturgical texts.

                      It is the correct, current way to say "Long live . . .".

                      In Russian.

                      And, just because a word occurs both in Church Slavonic and in literary
                      Russian, doesn't make one speak Slavonic when one uses the word.

                      When a Russian uses the word "dom"("house") is he speaking Slavonic or Russian?

                      Soon we will be told that when a Russian says "hello"-- "zdravstvujte" he
                      is not really speaking Russian.

                      Ridiculous.

                      With love in Christ,

                      Prot. Alexander Lebedeff





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • vkozyreff
                      Dear Father John, bless. What I mean is that the communist would never have chosen a language that was not clear to all Russians. Moreover, the Slavonic
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 2, 2004
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                        Dear Father John, bless.

                        What I mean is that the communist would never have chosen a language
                        that was not clear to all Russians. Moreover, the Slavonic language
                        has a "torzhestviennost" (majestic-ness) that the Russian language
                        does not have. The Communists wanted to take advantage of it. This
                        topic was discussed here, about the various types of English
                        languages (St James's etc.)

                        The majestic character of the language is also among the reasons why
                        it is so precious to the orthodox and so loved by them. As one
                        knows, the communists wanted to replace our faith by theirs (anti-
                        Christ, instead of Christ).

                        In addition, the Slavonic language is used to create new Russian
                        words, like "mlekopitayuscheye" (mammal).

                        The Slavic languages are very close to one another, like the
                        Scandinavian ones. In my previous work, I used to speak in Russian
                        to Bulgarians and Macedonians, while they would reply in their
                        language and everything was clear. The Slavonic language is
                        particularly close to the Bulgarian-Macedonian languages. The
                        Slavonic language is a perfect common language for the Slavic
                        orthodox.

                        In some liturgical books for Russians, for instance, the Slavonic
                        text is accompanied by footnotes, for places that would supposedly
                        not be clear for Russians. Actually, most of those notes are
                        superfluous.

                        In French speaking countries, the French language of many past
                        centuries ("vieux français"), in spite of being significantly
                        different from the present French, is nevertheless perfectly
                        understandable by prent French speaking people.

                        In God,

                        Vladimir Kozyreff





                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                        <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                        > Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
                        >
                        > > For the List, let me mention that the well known USSR slogan so
                        many
                        > > million times repeated "Da zdrazstvuyet Kommunisticheskaya
                        partiya"
                        > > (Long live the communist party) is in Slavonic, not Russian.
                        >
                        > JRS: Are you saying that the language used would make any
                        difference in
                        > such a case?
                        >
                        > Although, in Egyptian hieroglyphs, at least not everyone would
                        have to
                        > know what it said...
                        >
                        > In Christ
                        > Fr. John R. Shaw
                      • DDD
                        Just some thoughts here, Stephen. As a convert, I used to think like that when I first came to Orthodoxy. I initially came in through a NC Greek parish (the
                        Message 11 of 19 , May 2, 2004
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                          Just some thoughts here, Stephen. As a convert, I used to think like that when I first came to Orthodoxy. I initially came in through a NC Greek parish (the only church labelled Orthodox in that city). They asked, "You Grik?" I asked, "Why don't you have the services in English?" They asked, "Why don't you Americans build yourself a church like we did?"

                          1) In all humility, we Americans need to think about that a lot. There are *two* contexts in America or anywhere:
                          1) Churches built by Russians for Russians
                          2) Missionary churches built by Russians or by Americans for Americans.

                          2) The Russian churches built here *by Russians* were mainly built as Diaspora churches--not missionary churches, to serve the Russians in the Diaspora. Therefore, the Russians have every right to have their services in Slavonic, as they are accustomed, and as they would have them if they were in Russia. We Americans need to respect that.

                          3) *In that context,* as Fr. John pointed out, an American will never really (fully) understand the Russian Church Abroad unless he learns Russian, first, because there are so many publications that have not been translated into English, second, so as to communicate with Russians better and not have a "church within a Church" that has no contact with or understanding of its main Church (Russian OCOR), The latter is very, very important.

                          4) In that context, Russians are very welcoming to Americans joining their Church.

                          5) As far as missionary parishes go, I think the ideal would be to have the priest, at least, be fluent in both Russian and English--the former so he could be thoroughly acquainted with all the literature and goings on and spirit of the Church Abroad, and the latter so he could effectively communicate that to his parishioners, who could then just speak English.

                          6) It would be very good, even in missionary English parishes, if there were Russian/Slavonic classes held, so that there would not be the large gap between English-speaking converts and native Russians. If Russians can learn English, why can't we learn Russian?

                          7) It would be good for us to take a good look at exactly what St. Patriarch Tikhon (before he was Patriarch and while he was Bishop in America) was dealing with that situation. For example, I know he had blessed a Western-Rite-modified to be completely Orthodox-for America. He was doing bona fide missionary activity in America before the Revolution broke out, and we could learn a lot by finding out how he dealt with the issue.

                          Got to go now, but if anyone has more information on #7, I'd be interested.

                          --Dimitra

                          On 1 May 2004 16:42:15 -0000, orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                          From: Stephen Reske <stephen_reske@...>
                          Subject: The Mission of the Church Abroad?

                          One often sees the mission of the Church Abroad
                          defined by these two principles:

                          #1 To keep intact the Orthodox faith and tradition of
                          the historically autocephalous Russian Orthodox
                          Church.
                          #2 To carry the Orthodox faith to all countries where
                          Russians have emigrated.

                          Now, being that 1/3 or more of the Church Abroad is
                          comprised of converts to the Orthodox faith, and
                          probably another third are children and grandchildren
                          of Russian/Slavic immigrants; coupled with the
                          fact that according to many in ROCOR the Russian
                          Church in Russia is being revived in a patristic
                          manner, shouldn't these
                          principles be revised somewhat? Not that they should
                          be scrapped completely of course, but perhaps a third
                          should be added stating something like: "To bring the
                          Gospel to the non-Orthodox..." etc. This mission of
                          bringing the Orthodox faith to the non-Orthodox, which
                          all Orthodox are called to do, is already underway in
                          the Church Abroad...but who can say this is happening
                          as fully as it could be, or as fully as some of
                          ROCOR's neighbors are doing it? I suppose what I'm
                          leading up to is a question- is ROCOR (perhaps I mean
                          the hierarchy?) as concerned as they should be with
                          ministering to the people they find as their
                          neighbors?

                          Does ROCOR want the non-Orthodox to become members of
                          ROCOR? If so, why do the majority of the larger ROCOR
                          parishes/cathedrals conduct services almost entirely
                          in Church Slavonic(which the Russians don't even fully
                          understand!), with the sermon sometimes being
                          in Russian? Why does the
                          Metropolitan give many of his sermons in Russian? How
                          are American priests expected to be trained at a
                          seminary, in the tradition of the Church Abroad, where
                          classes are conducted primarily in Russian? As
                          faithful followers of St. Tikhon and St. Herman, why
                          does the missionary fervor of these saints sometimes
                          appear to be put on the "back burner" in ROCOR? How
                          does ROCOR, which still sees itself as a "church in
                          exile" from Russia, expect to respond to the
                          missionary call of the Church in a dynamic way? How
                          can a Church of the "diaspora" which sees its true
                          motherland as Russia(though a huge number of ROCOR's
                          faithful have never lived in Russia) ever not be a
                          static Church, hearkening back to bygone days- afraid
                          to confront a pluralistic modern world? The modern
                          world will not be spiritually satisfied with a
                          re-created facade of Holy Rus or Byzantium. ROCOR has
                          been outside Russia for nearly 100 years. The original
                          goal of the first members of the Synod was to return
                          to Russia in their lifetimes, as they did not expect
                          the Communist regime to last. How then, 80 years
                          later, can ROCOR still be using the same terminology
                          of "motherland" and "in exile", which reveals a
                          certain mindset. There will be no great return to
                          Russia for the vast majority of ROCOR's faithful- why
                          not accept this and begin to more fully engage with
                          the various countries where the "diaspora" finds
                          itself?

                          I wonder if the restoration of relations between ROCOR
                          and the MP will help make ROCOR more concerned with
                          the responsibility of preaching the Gospel to their
                          non-Orthodox neighbors... I certainly hope so. Maybe
                          after communion is established ROCOR will see that
                          they have in fact maintained the traditions of the
                          pre-revolutionary Russian Church and kept them in tact
                          for the Post-Soviet Russian faithful. They may see
                          that part of their mission has been accomplished and
                          now new steps can be taken to broaden their horizons a
                          bit. If
                          ROCOR were to take up this mission more fully, I'm
                          sure America and Europe would see ROCOR blossom and
                          grow like never before. Westerners are hungry for the
                          Orthodoxy of the Church Abroad, but the way it is
                          currently presented many places in ROCOR
                          makes it largely inaccessible to Westerners: Slavonic
                          services, seminaries and colloquia which teach in
                          Russian, Russian sermons, the "silvered glance" to the
                          old days, etc. If ROCOR is solely for Russians and
                          those who wish to "become" Russian, this should be
                          made more evident. If this is not the case, then ROCOR
                          should be opening its arms to the non-Orthodox more
                          fully.
                          It seems a good number of convert and "cradle" ROCOR
                          priests frequent this list, perhaps they could speak
                          on this.

                          In Christ,
                          Stephen
                        • Paul O. BARTLETT
                          ... I presume, then, that western Orthodox priests should know Latin? After all, the heritage of western Orthodoxy was transmitted in Latin, not Greek or
                          Message 12 of 19 , May 2, 2004
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                            On Sat, 1 May 2004, Joachim Wertz wrote:

                            > [much trimmed] Personally I think that
                            > all priests of any liturgical tradition should at least be able to read the
                            > respective liturgical language of their Churches and traditions.

                            I presume, then, that western Orthodox priests should know Latin?
                            After all, the heritage of western Orthodoxy was transmitted in Latin,
                            not Greek or Slavonic. There are Orthodox Christians (in ROCOR itself,
                            if my information is correct) who celebrate a western Liturgy (which
                            some of them may even call Mass, horror of horrors) rather than the
                            Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil. The Latin Liturgy of
                            St. Gregory the Great and Gregorian and Ambrosian chant have ancient
                            Orthodox roots. For all I know, there may be Orthodox monks who
                            follow the Rule of St. Benedict, who as nearly as I can tell was a
                            great Orthodox saint.

                            --
                            Paul Bartlett
                            bartlett "at" smart "dot" net
                            PGP key info in message headers
                          • frvboldewskul@aol.com
                            In a message dated 5/2/04 7:35:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... This question was posed to Fr. John, but I wish to give my two cents on this one point. As
                            Message 13 of 19 , May 2, 2004
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                              In a message dated 5/2/04 7:35:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                              stephen_reske@... writes:

                              > .
                              >
                              > Father, when I woke up this morning I couldn't help
                              > but notice I'm living in the year 2004 and that my
                              > neighbors primarily speak English here in America. Are
                              > you suggesting American and European converts should
                              > learn Church Slavonic in order to fully participate in
                              > Divine Services?
                              >
                              >

                              This question was posed to Fr. John, but I wish to give my two cents on this
                              one point. As noted by someone else in a post this afternoon, many of our
                              parishes were founded by individuals with the intent that the language used be
                              Church Slavonic. For example, in my parish in Cleveland, my people would have
                              become members of one of the other 29 Orthodox Churches here, if it wasn't for
                              this question (more so than calendar). We are a Church Slavonic parish that
                              serves parts in English. This means we lose good people, and gain good people.
                              But in a parish that I am starting in Sandusky OH, that parish will probably be
                              at least 90 percent in English. In my parish in Columbus, we use a mix of
                              50/50, although that depends on who is serving. (When Liturgy is not served, the
                              Reader services are nearly all in English). So the issue is parish make-up. St.
                              Sergius Parish in Cleveland is not made of 33 percent of converts, although I
                              am pleased that in the last few years I have baptized three American converts
                              who are faithful to the Church. I doubt that this answers the question, but I
                              suggest considering this one point: each parish is different with its own
                              history, for better or for worse. This history cannot be ignored and each priest
                              needs to know his parish. There is no common formula that works in all places.

                              Priest Victor Boldewskul


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Fr. John R. Shaw
                              ... itself, ... JRS: Quite so. But the more you know, the better off you are! So, even for Western Rite priests, a little familiarity with things Slavonic
                              Message 14 of 19 , May 3, 2004
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                                Paul Bartlett wrote:

                                > I presume, then, that western Orthodox priests should know Latin?
                                > After all, the heritage of western Orthodoxy was transmitted in Latin,
                                > not Greek or Slavonic. There are Orthodox Christians (in ROCOR
                                itself,
                                > if my information is correct) who celebrate a western Liturgy...

                                JRS: Quite so.

                                But the more you know, the better off you are! So, even for Western
                                Rite priests, a little familiarity with things Slavonic can't hurt...

                                In Christ
                                Fr. John R. Shaw
                              • Joachim Wertz
                                I have myself attended a Western Rite Liturgy in a church that is in ROCOR, and there were parts of the Liturgy (Mass) that were read in Latin. I would say
                                Message 15 of 19 , May 3, 2004
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                                  I have myself attended a Western Rite Liturgy in a church that is in ROCOR,
                                  and there were parts of the Liturgy (Mass) that were read in Latin. I would
                                  say that it would not be a bad idea if these Western Rite ROCOR clergy did
                                  know how to read Latin. I suspect that some at least, do. It wouldn't hurt.
                                  In my previous posting I wrote merely "read" the traditional liturgical
                                  language. I should have said "read for comprehension", and not just
                                  pronounce the services in said language. I can pronounce the Greek services,
                                  but my comprehension of the Greek liturgical language is less than 20%. It
                                  is my opinion that it is in a priest's best interest to know the traditional
                                  liturgical language (and even the modern language spoken by his Bishop), at
                                  least for his safeguarding against misunderstandings. No, I am not proposing
                                  that clergy be re-educated or that clergy wishing to join another
                                  jurisdiction should be subjected to a linguistic "litmus test". I was only
                                  speaking of an ideal and pointing out that there still is much work to be
                                  done in translating texts into languages that are not traditionally
                                  Orthodox. Then we could go into the issue of *which* translations should be
                                  standard!

                                  Christ is Risen!

                                  Joachim Wertz


                                  From: "Paul O. BARTLETT" <bartlett@...>
                                  Organization: SmartNet Private Account
                                  Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 19:35:24 -0400 (EDT)
                                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] The Mission of the Church Abroad?


                                  On Sat, 1 May 2004, Joachim Wertz wrote:

                                  > [much trimmed] Personally I think that
                                  > all priests of any liturgical tradition should at least be able to read the
                                  > respective liturgical language of their Churches and traditions.

                                  I presume, then, that western Orthodox priests should know Latin?
                                  After all, the heritage of western Orthodoxy was transmitted in Latin,
                                  not Greek or Slavonic. There are Orthodox Christians (in ROCOR itself,
                                  if my information is correct) who celebrate a western Liturgy (which
                                  some of them may even call Mass, horror of horrors) rather than the
                                  Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil. The Latin Liturgy of
                                  St. Gregory the Great and Gregorian and Ambrosian chant have ancient
                                  Orthodox roots. For all I know, there may be Orthodox monks who
                                  follow the Rule of St. Benedict, who as nearly as I can tell was a
                                  great Orthodox saint.

                                  --
                                  Paul Bartlett
                                  bartlett "at" smart "dot" net
                                  PGP key info in message headers



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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Paul O. BARTLETT
                                  ... How many day to day (non-specialist) Russian or other Slavic Orthodox priests know Greek? After all, Slavonic ritual books themselves were translated
                                  Message 16 of 19 , May 3, 2004
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                                    On Mon, 3 May 2004, Fr. John R. Shaw wrote:

                                    > Paul Bartlett wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > I presume, then, that western Orthodox priests should know Latin?
                                    > > After all, the heritage of western Orthodoxy was transmitted in Latin,
                                    > > not Greek or Slavonic. There are Orthodox Christians (in ROCOR itself,
                                    > > if my information is correct) who celebrate a western Liturgy...
                                    >
                                    > JRS: Quite so.
                                    >
                                    > But the more you know, the better off you are! So, even for Western
                                    > Rite priests, a little familiarity with things Slavonic can't hurt...

                                    How many "day to day" (non-specialist) Russian or other Slavic
                                    Orthodox priests know Greek? After all, Slavonic ritual books
                                    themselves were translated originally from Greek. (Of course, later
                                    services may have been composed in Slavonic, but I am not aware that
                                    the Divine Liturgies themselves were.) "So, even for [Eastern] Rite
                                    priests, a little familiarity with things [Greek] can't hurt".

                                    --
                                    Paul Bartlett
                                    bartlett "at" smart "dot" net
                                    PGP key info in message headers
                                  • Fr. John R. Shaw
                                    X.B.! ... JRS: It would be hard to determine how *well* they know Greek, but nevertheless, Greek is a required subject in the seminary. When I was a student at
                                    Message 17 of 19 , May 4, 2004
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                                      X.B.!

                                      Paul Bartlett wrote:

                                      > How many "day to day" (non-specialist) Russian or other Slavic
                                      > Orthodox priests know Greek? After all, Slavonic ritual books
                                      > themselves were translated originally from Greek. (Of course, later
                                      > services may have been composed in Slavonic, but I am not aware that
                                      > the Divine Liturgies themselves were.) "So, even for [Eastern] Rite
                                      > priests, a little familiarity with things [Greek] can't hurt".

                                      JRS: It would be hard to determine how *well* they know Greek, but
                                      nevertheless, Greek is a required subject in the seminary.

                                      When I was a student at Jordanville, not only were we required to learn
                                      Greek, but once a year, on the feast of the Three Hierarchs, the Divine
                                      Liturgy was sung in Greek (but following the Russian Typicon).

                                      When there are Greek-speakers in church, I sometimes say certain
                                      prayers in Greek for their benefit (e.g. the prayers before communion).
                                      Our chanter, who knows both Slavonic and Greek, will also sometimes
                                      sing chants in the original Greek.

                                      Everything depends on who attends a given service.

                                      In Christ
                                      Fr. John R. Shaw
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