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Re: MP as stalin's creation

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  • frraphver
    Dear Vladimir, To be a heretic, it is enough to follow one s own choice or opinion instead of divine truth preserved by the church, so as to cause division
    Message 1 of 19 , May 1, 2004
      Dear Vladimir,
      "To be a heretic, it is enough to follow one's own choice or opinion
      instead of divine truth preserved by the church, so as to cause
      division among Christians." My point is exactly illustrated by this
      statement. If one was to follow what is said here then everyone of
      us is a heretic at every moment. Then following the logic
      of 'defending the faith against all heresy big & small' one ends up
      with a so-called church of one supposedly 'pure' person.
      I think that it should be evident that such a view is not a defence
      of the Faith but rather its destruction. As the words of St Anatoly
      of Optina which you quote say, "will unnoticeably start to distort
      the teachings of the Holy Fathers from the Holy Spirit- the Church
      teaching itself."
      In Christ- Fr Raphael







      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
      <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
      > Dear Father Raphael, bless.
      >
      > You write: " I believe that what our church has rightly called sin
      > is falsely called by some heresy".
      >
      > Kindly let me disagree with you. I do not think that there are big
      > heresies and small heresies. I do not believe that small heresies
      > are not big enough to qualify for the title. I do not think that
      > that they should be tolerated or that accepting them will
      contribute
      > to the Church's unity.
      >
      > To be a heretic, it is enough to follow one's own choice or
      opinion
      > instead of divine truth preserved by the Church, so as to cause
      > division among Christians. A heresy needs not be a major heresy to
      > be a heresy. Heresy is a system of thought which contradicts true
      > doctrine(see Message 6300).
      >
      > "Heresies will spread everywhere and deceive many. The enemy of
      the
      > human kind will act skilfully, if possible, leading the chosen
      ones
      > to heresy. He will not begin by discarding the dogmas on the Holy
      > Trinity, divinity of Jesus Christ, on Theotokos, but will
      > unnoticeably start to distort the Teachings of the Holy Fathers
      from
      > the Holy Spirit - the Church teaching itself (St. Anatoly of
      Optina).
      >
      > You say that refraining from calling heresies sergianism and
      > ecumenism will save the Church's unity. This is contrary to all
      that
      > the Church has been teaching about compromising in matters of
      faith.
      >
      > I suggest to the contrary that you are close to St Anatoly's
      > prediction about the subtle and progressive adulteration of the
      > faith by which the Devil infiltrates the Church: "They will lull
      > their conscience saying: we will save the monastery, and the Lord
      > will forgive us. Unfortunate and blinded, they are not even
      thinking
      > that through heresies and heretics, the devil will enter the
      > monastery, and than it will no longer be a holy monastery, but
      bare
      > walls from which Grace will depart from forever".
      >
      > You write: "Inevitably it will lead to a 'church' of the pure who
      > will then begin to mutually reject each other as heretics also.
      This
      > we already see happening; 'by their fruits judge.' The choice it
      > seems is between two visions of what the Church really is".
      >
      > The first fruits that ROCOR(L) has borne is a schism, consequent
      to
      > an unprecedented mass exclusion of a whole part of ROCOR,
      including
      > clerics that humbly requested to be judged by the Synod. The
      > compromising ones expelled and divided.
      >
      > In God,
      >
      > Vladimir Kozyreff
      >
      > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver"
      <frraphver@s...>
      > wrote:
      > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
      > > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
      > > > Dear Father Raphael, bless.
      > > >
      > > > Thank you for your kind attention and your good words.
      > > >
      > > > You write: "If as is being said the MP is 'schismatic &
      > > heretical'…
      > > > Literally this is a dead end.
      > > >
      > > > The truth of the matter is that the MP is schismatic and
      > heretical
      > > by
      > > > nature and by origin. The question is not to know whether the
      MP
      > > has
      > > > committed sins (we all do), but to know that sergianism and
      > > ecumenism
      > > > are the MP's essence. The MP denies that they are sins and
      > teaches
      > > > that sergianism was a bold step to take. All of us are
      sinners,
      > > > including lay people, priests and hierarchs, but Christians
      > > confess
      > > > to be sinners. Teaching that sergianism is not a sin cannot be
      > the
      > > > Church's teaching. It is the teaching of the devil. It is
      > > apostasy,
      > > > and we must flee it.
      > > >
      > > > You write: "heresy is a specific type of sin, a conscious
      > espousal
      > > of
      > > > false teachings that directly deny the Faith"
      > > >
      > > > Claiming that collaborating with the Evil one to save the
      Church
      > > was
      > > > a bold step is directly denying the real nature of the Church.
      > The
      > > > Church is not to be saved by collaboration with the Gates of
      > Hell.
      > > > Claiming the opposite is heretical.
      > > >
      > > > You write: "In any case it is the Church which discerns all of
      > > this
      > > > through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and then applies this
      in
      > > > specific cases & situations".
      > > >
      > > > Our Church has already made it clear that sergianism and
      > ecumenism
      > > > are heretical. The new path in the ROCOR has been questioning
      > this
      > > > and has prompted the schism. That is why many question that
      the
      > > ROCOR
      > > > (L) is faithful.
      > > >
      > > > You write: "as the Body of Christ She has that complete
      freedom
      > to
      > > > apply these terms in the way She sees fit & proper; this is
      > vital
      > > &
      > > > intrinsic to the Church's continuing ability to use
      discernment
      > > and
      > > > love in all things".
      > > >
      > > > The schism within ROCOR has forced us to make a choice as to
      > where
      > > > the true Church is, as metropolitans have been contradicting
      one
      > > > another on this matter.
      > > >
      > > > You write: "If those within the MP such as Fr Tarasius
      Gorlatov
      > > are
      > > > not only not saints but not even Orthodox".
      > > >
      > > > If Fr Tarasius Gorlatov was in communion with a (false) bishop
      > who
      > > > holds that an alliance with the Evil one was a bold step to
      take
      > > and
      > > > that ecumenism is orthodox, then Fr Tarasius Gorlatov was not
      > > > orthodox. I suppose that he did not share this false view with
      > any
      > > > false bishop, so maybe he was not part of the MP after all.
      > > >
      > > > He would not be orthodox, if he shared the MP's view on
      > > sergianism,
      > > > or if he was part of the Latino-catholic "church" or of the
      > > > Lutheran "church". Mother Theresa was not orthodox, however
      > > admirable
      > > > she may have been.
      > > >
      > > > Whatever the sanctity of Fr Gorlatov, the Church cannot teach
      > that
      > > > sergianism was right. Any institution that does cannot be the
      > > Church.
      > > > The ROCOR's call is to make this clear in an uncompromising
      way.
      > > >
      > > > Luke 18:8 "However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find
      > faith
      > > on
      > > > the earth?"
      > > >
      > > > In God,
      > > >
      > > > Vladimir Kozyreff.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver"
      > > <frraphver@s...>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
      > > > > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
      > > > > > Dear Father Raphael, bless.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > You write: "In the recent Orthodox America there is an
      > account
      > > of
      > > > > > the New Martyr Priest Tarasius Gorlatov. Is his obvious
      > piety,
      > > > > > humility and quiet grace amidst suffering all false
      because
      > he
      > > > was
      > > > > > in the MP?"
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Nobody says that a person is bad because he is in the MP.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > The fact however that a good person belongs to the
      > > Latinocatholic
      > > > > > church does not make it the true church.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > The fact that a good person belongs to the ecumenical,
      > > schismatic
      > > > > > and heretical MP "Church" does not make the
      latter "church"
      > > > > > orthodox, does not change the fact that Stalin, not Christ
      > > > founded
      > > > > > it, and does not change the fact that sergianism is
      > inherently
      > > > > > incompatible with orthodoxy.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > In matters of faith, there can be no place for compromise.
      > > Love
      > > > > for
      > > > > > Christ and truth come together. You cannot shop and take
      the
      > > one
      > > > > you
      > > > > > like.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > In God,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Vladimir Kozyreff
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver"
      > > > > <frraphver@s...>
      > > > > > wrote:
      > > > > > > Dear Michael Nikitin,
      > > > > > > I will let Fr Sergei answer for himself as to what he
      > meant.
      > > > > > > But the idea that the MP is Stalin's creation- of course
      > if
      > > > this
      > > > > > is
      > > > > > > entirely true- then what to do?
      > > > > > > This morning a gentleman came up to me, what some call
      > > a 'New
      > > > > > > Russian.' He is an older person and was very much formed
      > > during
      > > > > > the
      > > > > > > Soviet era; it is his wife who initially was the
      Believer.
      > > When
      > > > > he
      > > > > > > first accompanied his wife, from time to time to church,
      > he
      > > > > would
      > > > > > > come with fur cap adorned with hammer & sickle; at meals
      > or
      > > > > coffee
      > > > > > > he would loudly talk about the 'good things' of the
      Soviet
      > > > > Union.
      > > > > > > All of this the rest of us found very difficult to take.
      > But
      > > > for
      > > > > > the
      > > > > > > most part we related to him as kindly as possible.
      > > > > > > This morning this gentlemen (minus fur cap for at least
      a
      > > year
      > > > > > now)
      > > > > > > came up and asked me the meaning of certain Slavonic
      words
      > > in
      > > > > the
      > > > > > > Liturgy. When I asked him if he was baptised he said
      yes,
      > of
      > > > > > course
      > > > > > > and that someone in his past family had been a deacon.
      > > Thanking
      > > > > me
      > > > > > > for my explanation he said he would see me tonight at
      the
      > > > > cemetary
      > > > > > > for the Radonitsa Panichida. Such change in him: even
      his
      > > face
      > > > > > > looked different!
      > > > > > > Now why tell this story? This person truly was a
      creation
      > of
      > > > > > Stalin.
      > > > > > > But what to do? Cast him aside as eternally lost?; that
      > > where
      > > > he
      > > > > > > goes the Church is not? For myself I think not. It is
      not
      > > that
      > > > > the
      > > > > > > Soviet era or present brokeness are not evil or wrong.
      > > Rather
      > > > it
      > > > > > is
      > > > > > > that we are gravely mistaken if we think the Church is
      the
      > > > slave
      > > > > > of
      > > > > > > evil; and if I understand Fr Sergei this is what his
      > account
      > > > > > > illustrates.
      > > > > > > In the recent Orthodox America there is an account of
      the
      > > New
      > > > > > Martyr
      > > > > > > Priest Tarasius Gorlatov. Is his obvious piety, humility
      > and
      > > > > quiet
      > > > > > > grace amidst suffering all false because he was in the
      MP?
      > > > Again
      > > > > > > this is to think that where there is evil, it reigns
      > > triumphant
      > > > > > over
      > > > > > > the Church; that every fibre of every person in such
      > > a 'church'
      > > > > is
      > > > > > > evil. Thank God for all of us who are so evil (at least
      I
      > > am)
      > > > > that
      > > > > > > God's providence works in a contrary fashion to this.
      > > Imagine
      > > > if
      > > > > > the
      > > > > > > the behaviour of someone 80 years ago (even a
      > Metropolitan)
      > > was
      > > > > > > somehow an unbreakable chain on all of us: what slavery!
      > But
      > > > > God's
      > > > > > > love is bigger than that. Simply put there could never
      be
      > a
      > > > > Church
      > > > > > > without this since evil is always present.
      > > > > > > In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
      > > > >
      > > > > Dear Vladimir,
      > > > > If as is being said the MP is 'schismatic & heretical' due
      to
      > > > > ecumenism and sergianism the path ahead is quite clear.
      Since
      > > all
      > > > of
      > > > > us have commited the sin of compromise with this world and
      > many
      > > of
      > > > > us either make false excuses for this or do not recognise
      this
      > > sin
      > > > > in ourselves- then none of us can be in this 'church'.
      > Literally
      > > > > this is a dead end.
      > > > > If however it is the Church of Christ that we desire we must
      > > > witness
      > > > > about the sins of our Times in a humble way that admits that
      > we
      > > > also
      > > > > share in them. Sin is not equivalent to heresy; heresy is a
      > > > specific
      > > > > type of sin, a conscious espousal of false teachings that
      > > directly
      > > > > deny the Faith. In any case it is the Church which discerns
      > all
      > > of
      > > > > this through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and then
      applies
      > > this
      > > > > in specific cases & situations.
      > > > > I think that you have unintentionally reversed this whole
      way
      > by
      > > > > which the Church lives; as if She (and us) are bound by
      terms
      > > such
      > > > > as 'ecumenism' and 'sergianism'. These things came from Her
      as
      > > She
      > > > > discerned how to navigate the waters of these stormy times;
      > and
      > > as
      > > > > the Body of Christ She has that complete freedom to apply
      > these
      > > > > terms in the way She sees fit & proper; this is vital &
      > > intrinsic
      > > > to
      > > > > the Church's continuing ability to use discernment and love
      in
      > > all
      > > > > things. This does not cut the Church off from the integrity
      of
      > > the
      > > > > Faith, rather it confirms it since the purpose of the Faith
      is
      > > the
      > > > > salvation of humanity.
      > > > > Again it is simple. If those within the MP such as Fr
      Tarasius
      > > > > Gorlatov are not only not saints but not even Orthodox; well
      > > then
      > > > we
      > > > > are truly deceived. Any holiness we saw there was
      false: 'the
      > > fact
      > > > > that a good person belongs to ...does not make it the true
      > > church.'
      > > > > If on the contrary however the holiness of a priest-martyr
      > such
      > > as
      > > > > Fr Tarasius (along with so many others) points to the grace
      &
      > > > > Orthodoxy of the larger Church he was part of then the whole
      > > > > equation is turned on its head.
      > > > > In the end it is up to each of us how we will discern.
      Whether
      > > > words
      > > > > such as 'sergianism' are chains that enslave & bind all
      > despite
      > > > > their own holiness; or whether the grace of God within His
      > Holy
      > > > > Church is greater than the sins past or present within it.
      > > > > In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
      > >
      > > Dear Vladimir,
      > > I believe that what our church has rightly called sin is falsely
      > > called by some heresy. This misuse of the term heresy comes from
      a
      > > lack of discernment not in accord with the Holy Fathers.
      > Inevitably
      > > it will lead to a 'church' of the pure who will then begin to
      > > mutually reject each other as heretics also. This we already see
      > > happening; 'by their fruits judge.' The choice it seems is
      between
      > > two visions of what the Church really is.
      > > In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael
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