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The Mission of the Church Abroad?

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  • Stephen Reske
    One often sees the mission of the Church Abroad defined by these two principles: #1 To keep intact the Orthodox faith and tradition of the historically
    Message 1 of 19 , May 1 8:37 AM
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      One often sees the mission of the Church Abroad
      defined by these two principles:

      #1 To keep intact the Orthodox faith and tradition of
      the historically autocephalous Russian Orthodox
      Church.
      #2 To carry the Orthodox faith to all countries where
      Russians have emigrated.

      Now, being that 1/3 or more of the Church Abroad is
      comprised of converts to the Orthodox faith, and
      probably another third are children and grandchildren
      of Russian/Slavic immigrants; coupled with the
      fact that according to many in ROCOR the Russian
      Church in Russia is being revived in a patristic
      manner, shouldn't these
      principles be revised somewhat? Not that they should
      be scrapped completely of course, but perhaps a third
      should be added stating something like: "To bring the
      Gospel to the non-Orthodox..." etc. This mission of
      bringing the Orthodox faith to the non-Orthodox, which
      all Orthodox are called to do, is already underway in
      the Church Abroad...but who can say this is happening
      as fully as it could be, or as fully as some of
      ROCOR's neighbors are doing it? I suppose what I'm
      leading up to is a question- is ROCOR (perhaps I mean
      the hierarchy?) as concerned as they should be with
      ministering to the people they find as their
      neighbors?

      Does ROCOR want the non-Orthodox to become members of
      ROCOR? If so, why do the majority of the larger ROCOR
      parishes/cathedrals conduct services almost entirely
      in Church Slavonic(which the Russians don't even fully
      understand!), with the sermon sometimes being
      in Russian? Why does the
      Metropolitan give many of his sermons in Russian? How
      are American priests expected to be trained at a
      seminary, in the tradition of the Church Abroad, where
      classes are conducted primarily in Russian? As
      faithful followers of St. Tikhon and St. Herman, why
      does the missionary fervor of these saints sometimes
      appear to be put on the "back burner" in ROCOR? How
      does ROCOR, which still sees itself as a "church in
      exile" from Russia, expect to respond to the
      missionary call of the Church in a dynamic way? How
      can a Church of the "diaspora" which sees its true
      motherland as Russia(though a huge number of ROCOR's
      faithful have never lived in Russia) ever not be a
      static Church, hearkening back to bygone days- afraid
      to confront a pluralistic modern world? The modern
      world will not be spiritually satisfied with a
      re-created facade of Holy Rus or Byzantium. ROCOR has
      been outside Russia for nearly 100 years. The original
      goal of the first members of the Synod was to return
      to Russia in their lifetimes, as they did not expect
      the Communist regime to last. How then, 80 years
      later, can ROCOR still be using the same terminology
      of "motherland" and "in exile", which reveals a
      certain mindset. There will be no great return to
      Russia for the vast majority of ROCOR's faithful- why
      not accept this and begin to more fully engage with
      the various countries where the "diaspora" finds
      itself?

      I wonder if the restoration of relations between ROCOR
      and the MP will help make ROCOR more concerned with
      the responsibility of preaching the Gospel to their
      non-Orthodox neighbors... I certainly hope so. Maybe
      after communion is established ROCOR will see that
      they have in fact maintained the traditions of the
      pre-revolutionary Russian Church and kept them in tact
      for the Post-Soviet Russian faithful. They may see
      that part of their mission has been accomplished and
      now new steps can be taken to broaden their horizons a
      bit. If
      ROCOR were to take up this mission more fully, I'm
      sure America and Europe would see ROCOR blossom and
      grow like never before. Westerners are hungry for the
      Orthodoxy of the Church Abroad, but the way it is
      currently presented many places in ROCOR
      makes it largely inaccessible to Westerners: Slavonic
      services, seminaries and colloquia which teach in
      Russian, Russian sermons, the "silvered glance" to the
      old days, etc. If ROCOR is solely for Russians and
      those who wish to "become" Russian, this should be
      made more evident. If this is not the case, then ROCOR
      should be opening its arms to the non-Orthodox more
      fully.
      It seems a good number of convert and "cradle" ROCOR
      priests frequent this list, perhaps they could speak
      on this.

      In Christ,
      Stephen




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    • Fr. John R. Shaw
      X.B.! ... JRS: To begin with, remember that ROCOR does stand for Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia . ROCOR is not simply an American Church: it is an
      Message 2 of 19 , May 1 1:46 PM
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        X.B.!

        Regarding:

        > Does ROCOR want the non-Orthodox to become members of
        > ROCOR? If so, why do the majority of the larger ROCOR
        > parishes/cathedrals conduct services almost entirely
        > in Church Slavonic(which the Russians don't even fully
        > understand!), with the sermon sometimes being
        > in Russian?

        JRS: To begin with, remember that ROCOR does stand for "Russian
        Orthodox Church Outside Russia".

        ROCOR is not simply an American Church: it is an international Church,
        and Russian roots are what bind it together.

        Yes, Russians only half-understand Church Slavonic, *unless they have
        been taught Slavonic*.

        Before the revolution, all primary and secondary schools in Russia
        taught at least the beginnings of Church Slavonic, just as Slavonic
        used to be taught in schools in Serbia and Bulgaria, before the
        communist period.

        But people who are active in the Church usually do have some knowledge
        of Slavonic. Thus for example many Slavonic expressions have been taken
        over into modern Russian, such as "Vo vremja ono" (the usual beginning
        of Gospel readings).

        But then, the King James Bible is much more recent than Church
        Slavonic, is still considered "modern English", but people have to get
        used to it also.

        And again, the actual *content* of our liturgical texts is neither
        simple nor easily understood, in any language. Quite often hearing
        these texts in English only gives a feeling that the language is
        English -- not any immediate insight into the meaning!

        Furthermore, Western people, including Americans, of non-Orthodox
        background, have no problem following a service in a book. This was the
        general practice among Roman Catholics when the Mass was in Latin!
        Russians, on the other hand, do not feel at home trying to use books in
        church.

        > Why does the
        > Metropolitan give many of his sermons in Russian?

        JRS: Many? That means you are aware he does sometimes use English too.
        The answer to the question is that many of the listeners speak Russian
        as a first, or perhaps only, language.

        Our churches today are packed with new people from Russia. These people
        are often like children in their approach to the Church. The American
        converts and "interested non-Orthodox" usually have an entirely
        different psychological outlook, and come already prepared to hear
        another language.

        They know where they have come -- and why!

        > How
        > are American priests expected to be trained at a
        > seminary, in the tradition of the Church Abroad, where
        > classes are conducted primarily in Russian?

        JRS: To begin with, the only way they can expect to enter into "the
        tradition of the Church Abroad", is by learning Russian as well as they
        can.

        That is why even non-Orthodox seminaries teach New Testament Greek to
        their students: because a translation never gives you every nuance of
        the original!

        But remember this, that before Vatican II, Roman Catholic seminarians
        had to learn to speak and write Latin fluently.

        Latin is not a modern spoken language. Nobody speaks it except
        scholars.

        But it was (to some extent may still be) a valuable "lingua franca" for
        priests.

        In the same way, once you know Russian, and are used to the Slavonic
        Liturgy, you can go to, and feel quite at home in, a Russian Orthodox
        church anywhere in the world.

        Perhaps some day you will take a vacation to Europe. Munich may be
        Munich to you, but if you go to the Russian churches there, you will
        feel that you are at home.

        The truth is that due to its international character, ROCOR uses
        Russian as a "lingua franca", and in my days at Jordanville, we had
        students from other countries who did not speak English, or only spoke
        it poorly -- but who were at home conversing with one another in
        Russian.

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw
      • vkozyreff
        Dear Father John, bless. For the List, let me mention that the well known USSR slogan so many million times repeated Da zdrazstvuyet Kommunisticheskaya
        Message 3 of 19 , May 1 4:26 PM
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          Dear Father John, bless.

          For the List, let me mention that the well known USSR slogan so many
          million times repeated "Da zdrazstvuyet Kommunisticheskaya partiya"
          (Long live the communist party) is in Slavonic, not Russian.

          In God,

          Vladimir Kozyreff


          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
          <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
          >
          > X.B.!
          >
          > Regarding:
          >
          > > Does ROCOR want the non-Orthodox to become members of
          > > ROCOR? If so, why do the majority of the larger ROCOR
          > > parishes/cathedrals conduct services almost entirely
          > > in Church Slavonic(which the Russians don't even fully
          > > understand!), with the sermon sometimes being
          > > in Russian?
          >
          > JRS: To begin with, remember that ROCOR does stand for "Russian
          > Orthodox Church Outside Russia".
          >
          > ROCOR is not simply an American Church: it is an international
          Church,
          > and Russian roots are what bind it together.
          >
          > Yes, Russians only half-understand Church Slavonic, *unless they
          have
          > been taught Slavonic*.
          >
          > Before the revolution, all primary and secondary schools in Russia
          > taught at least the beginnings of Church Slavonic, just as
          Slavonic
          > used to be taught in schools in Serbia and Bulgaria, before the
          > communist period.
          >
          > But people who are active in the Church usually do have some
          knowledge
          > of Slavonic. Thus for example many Slavonic expressions have been
          taken
          > over into modern Russian, such as "Vo vremja ono" (the usual
          beginning
          > of Gospel readings).
          >
          > But then, the King James Bible is much more recent than Church
          > Slavonic, is still considered "modern English", but people have to
          get
          > used to it also.
          >
          > And again, the actual *content* of our liturgical texts is neither
          > simple nor easily understood, in any language. Quite often hearing
          > these texts in English only gives a feeling that the language is
          > English -- not any immediate insight into the meaning!
          >
          > Furthermore, Western people, including Americans, of non-Orthodox
          > background, have no problem following a service in a book. This
          was the
          > general practice among Roman Catholics when the Mass was in Latin!
          > Russians, on the other hand, do not feel at home trying to use
          books in
          > church.
          >
          > > Why does the
          > > Metropolitan give many of his sermons in Russian?
          >
          > JRS: Many? That means you are aware he does sometimes use English
          too.
          > The answer to the question is that many of the listeners speak
          Russian
          > as a first, or perhaps only, language.
          >
          > Our churches today are packed with new people from Russia. These
          people
          > are often like children in their approach to the Church. The
          American
          > converts and "interested non-Orthodox" usually have an entirely
          > different psychological outlook, and come already prepared to hear
          > another language.
          >
          > They know where they have come -- and why!
          >
          > > How
          > > are American priests expected to be trained at a
          > > seminary, in the tradition of the Church Abroad, where
          > > classes are conducted primarily in Russian?
          >
          > JRS: To begin with, the only way they can expect to enter
          into "the
          > tradition of the Church Abroad", is by learning Russian as well as
          they
          > can.
          >
          > That is why even non-Orthodox seminaries teach New Testament Greek
          to
          > their students: because a translation never gives you every nuance
          of
          > the original!
          >
          > But remember this, that before Vatican II, Roman Catholic
          seminarians
          > had to learn to speak and write Latin fluently.
          >
          > Latin is not a modern spoken language. Nobody speaks it except
          > scholars.
          >
          > But it was (to some extent may still be) a valuable "lingua
          franca" for
          > priests.
          >
          > In the same way, once you know Russian, and are used to the
          Slavonic
          > Liturgy, you can go to, and feel quite at home in, a Russian
          Orthodox
          > church anywhere in the world.
          >
          > Perhaps some day you will take a vacation to Europe. Munich may be
          > Munich to you, but if you go to the Russian churches there, you
          will
          > feel that you are at home.
          >
          > The truth is that due to its international character, ROCOR uses
          > Russian as a "lingua franca", and in my days at Jordanville, we
          had
          > students from other countries who did not speak English, or only
          spoke
          > it poorly -- but who were at home conversing with one another in
          > Russian.
          >
          > In Christ
          > Fr. John R. Shaw
        • Joachim Wertz
          Church Slavonic is not limited to the Divine Liturgy and other well-known services. Just as Orthodoxy is not limited to the services. There is a treasure trove
          Message 4 of 19 , May 1 7:25 PM
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            Church Slavonic is not limited to the Divine Liturgy and other well-known
            services. Just as Orthodoxy is not limited to the services. There is a
            treasure trove of prayers, theological works, lives of saints and other
            righteous, and even services that have never been translated into English.
            St. Vladimir's Seminary, for example, has a large collection of theological
            literature in Church Slavonic, including many pre-revolutionary journals and
            periodicals. Alas, I am pretty sure that most of them seminarians there
            can't read them. I, a layman and a convert, do read Church Slavonic. I went
            out of my way to learn it. Actually I think it is easier than Russian or
            Serbian (which I have also studied and read) because there are no
            colloquialisms, slang, conversational language, etc. Personally I think that
            all priests of any liturgical tradition should at least be able to read the
            respective liturgical language of their Churches and traditions.

            Joachim Wertz

            From: "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...>
            Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 16:46:34 -0400
            To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] The Mission of the Church Abroad?



            X.B.!

            Regarding:

            > Does ROCOR want the non-Orthodox to become members of
            > ROCOR? If so, why do the majority of the larger ROCOR
            > parishes/cathedrals conduct services almost entirely
            > in Church Slavonic(which the Russians don't even fully
            > understand!), with the sermon sometimes being
            > in Russian?

            JRS: To begin with, remember that ROCOR does stand for "Russian
            Orthodox Church Outside Russia".

            ROCOR is not simply an American Church: it is an international Church,
            and Russian roots are what bind it together.

            Yes, Russians only half-understand Church Slavonic, *unless they have
            been taught Slavonic*.

            Before the revolution, all primary and secondary schools in Russia
            taught at least the beginnings of Church Slavonic, just as Slavonic
            used to be taught in schools in Serbia and Bulgaria, before the
            communist period.

            But people who are active in the Church usually do have some knowledge
            of Slavonic. Thus for example many Slavonic expressions have been taken
            over into modern Russian, such as "Vo vremja ono" (the usual beginning
            of Gospel readings).

            But then, the King James Bible is much more recent than Church
            Slavonic, is still considered "modern English", but people have to get
            used to it also.

            And again, the actual *content* of our liturgical texts is neither
            simple nor easily understood, in any language. Quite often hearing
            these texts in English only gives a feeling that the language is
            English -- not any immediate insight into the meaning!

            Furthermore, Western people, including Americans, of non-Orthodox
            background, have no problem following a service in a book. This was the
            general practice among Roman Catholics when the Mass was in Latin!
            Russians, on the other hand, do not feel at home trying to use books in
            church.

            > Why does the
            > Metropolitan give many of his sermons in Russian?

            JRS: Many? That means you are aware he does sometimes use English too.
            The answer to the question is that many of the listeners speak Russian
            as a first, or perhaps only, language.

            Our churches today are packed with new people from Russia. These people
            are often like children in their approach to the Church. The American
            converts and "interested non-Orthodox" usually have an entirely
            different psychological outlook, and come already prepared to hear
            another language.

            They know where they have come -- and why!

            > How
            > are American priests expected to be trained at a
            > seminary, in the tradition of the Church Abroad, where
            > classes are conducted primarily in Russian?

            JRS: To begin with, the only way they can expect to enter into "the
            tradition of the Church Abroad", is by learning Russian as well as they
            can.

            That is why even non-Orthodox seminaries teach New Testament Greek to
            their students: because a translation never gives you every nuance of
            the original!

            But remember this, that before Vatican II, Roman Catholic seminarians
            had to learn to speak and write Latin fluently.

            Latin is not a modern spoken language. Nobody speaks it except
            scholars.

            But it was (to some extent may still be) a valuable "lingua franca" for
            priests.

            In the same way, once you know Russian, and are used to the Slavonic
            Liturgy, you can go to, and feel quite at home in, a Russian Orthodox
            church anywhere in the world.

            Perhaps some day you will take a vacation to Europe. Munich may be
            Munich to you, but if you go to the Russian churches there, you will
            feel that you are at home.

            The truth is that due to its international character, ROCOR uses
            Russian as a "lingua franca", and in my days at Jordanville, we had
            students from other countries who did not speak English, or only spoke
            it poorly -- but who were at home conversing with one another in
            Russian.

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw



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          • larry most
            CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN Dear Father John, You have given a very good reply, but I in all humility, disagree with you. Many, many people, when they
            Message 5 of 19 , May 1 7:39 PM
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              CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN
              Dear Father John,
              You have given a very good reply, but I in all
              humility, disagree with you. Many, many people, when
              they see "Russian Orthodox (Greek, Serbian,
              etc)Church, are sure that one must be Russian, etc to
              go there. Also, it is very hard to bring English
              speaking inquirers to a church that is doing
              everything in a language that they don't understand.
              And again, if one can learn a language to earn a
              living, one should be able to learn the language to
              worship. Now that doesn't mean that I never want to
              hear Slavonic at Church, I do, but I don't think that
              one MUST learn Russian (or Greek, Serbian, etc,) to be
              Orthodox.
              Love in Christ,
              Sub-deacon Lawrence
              --- "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
              >
              > X.B.!
              >
              > Regarding:
              >
              > > Does ROCOR want the non-Orthodox to become members
              > of
              > > ROCOR? If so, why do the majority of the larger
              > ROCOR
              > > parishes/cathedrals conduct services almost
              > entirely
              > > in Church Slavonic(which the Russians don't even
              > fully
              > > understand!), with the sermon sometimes being
              > > in Russian?
              >
              > JRS: To begin with, remember that ROCOR does stand
              > for "Russian
              > Orthodox Church Outside Russia".
              >
              > ROCOR is not simply an American Church: it is an
              > international Church,
              > and Russian roots are what bind it together.
              >
              > Yes, Russians only half-understand Church Slavonic,
              > *unless they have
              > been taught Slavonic*.
              >
              > Before the revolution, all primary and secondary
              > schools in Russia
              > taught at least the beginnings of Church Slavonic,
              > just as Slavonic
              > used to be taught in schools in Serbia and Bulgaria,
              > before the
              > communist period.
              >
              > But people who are active in the Church usually do
              > have some knowledge
              > of Slavonic. Thus for example many Slavonic
              > expressions have been taken
              > over into modern Russian, such as "Vo vremja ono"
              > (the usual beginning
              > of Gospel readings).
              >
              > But then, the King James Bible is much more recent
              > than Church
              > Slavonic, is still considered "modern English", but
              > people have to get
              > used to it also.
              >
              > And again, the actual *content* of our liturgical
              > texts is neither
              > simple nor easily understood, in any language. Quite
              > often hearing
              > these texts in English only gives a feeling that the
              > language is
              > English -- not any immediate insight into the
              > meaning!
              >
              > Furthermore, Western people, including Americans, of
              > non-Orthodox
              > background, have no problem following a service in a
              > book. This was the
              > general practice among Roman Catholics when the Mass
              > was in Latin!
              > Russians, on the other hand, do not feel at home
              > trying to use books in
              > church.
              >
              > > Why does the
              > > Metropolitan give many of his sermons in Russian?
              >
              > JRS: Many? That means you are aware he does
              > sometimes use English too.
              > The answer to the question is that many of the
              > listeners speak Russian
              > as a first, or perhaps only, language.
              >
              > Our churches today are packed with new people from
              > Russia. These people
              > are often like children in their approach to the
              > Church. The American
              > converts and "interested non-Orthodox" usually have
              > an entirely
              > different psychological outlook, and come already
              > prepared to hear
              > another language.
              >
              > They know where they have come -- and why!
              >
              > > How
              > > are American priests expected to be trained at a
              > > seminary, in the tradition of the Church Abroad,
              > where
              > > classes are conducted primarily in Russian?
              >
              > JRS: To begin with, the only way they can expect to
              > enter into "the
              > tradition of the Church Abroad", is by learning
              > Russian as well as they
              > can.
              >
              > That is why even non-Orthodox seminaries teach New
              > Testament Greek to
              > their students: because a translation never gives
              > you every nuance of
              > the original!
              >
              > But remember this, that before Vatican II, Roman
              > Catholic seminarians
              > had to learn to speak and write Latin fluently.
              >
              > Latin is not a modern spoken language. Nobody speaks
              > it except
              > scholars.
              >
              > But it was (to some extent may still be) a valuable
              > "lingua franca" for
              > priests.
              >
              > In the same way, once you know Russian, and are used
              > to the Slavonic
              > Liturgy, you can go to, and feel quite at home in, a
              > Russian Orthodox
              > church anywhere in the world.
              >
              > Perhaps some day you will take a vacation to Europe.
              > Munich may be
              > Munich to you, but if you go to the Russian churches
              > there, you will
              > feel that you are at home.
              >
              > The truth is that due to its international
              > character, ROCOR uses
              > Russian as a "lingua franca", and in my days at
              > Jordanville, we had
              > students from other countries who did not speak
              > English, or only spoke
              > it poorly -- but who were at home conversing with
              > one another in
              > Russian.
              >
              > In Christ
              > Fr. John R. Shaw
              >
              >




              __________________________________
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            • Stephen Reske
              ... Indeed He is Risen! Thank you for your reply, father. I do have a few questions though. ... Yes, of course. I wonder though...are liturgical language,
              Message 6 of 19 , May 1 8:10 PM
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                --- "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrvrevjrsxexecpcom> wrote:
                >
                > X.B.!

                Indeed He is Risen!
                Thank you for your reply, father. I do have a few
                questions though.

                >
                > JRJRSTo begin with, remember that ROROCORoes stand
                > for "Russian
                > Orthodox Church Outside Russia".

                Yes, of course. I wonder though...are liturgical
                language, Russian sermons, and a seeming lack of
                desire to engage with your neighbors all
                nenecessitiesf being part of the Russian Church? St.
                Herman seemed to do a decent job of remaining
                perfectly in the Russia tradition while preaching to
                his neighbors and communicating in their language.

                > ROROCORs not simply an American Church: it is an
                > international Church,
                > and Russian roots are what bind it together.
                >

                Fair enough. The Russian Church which, in reality,
                has no real ties to Russia anymore.

                > Yes, Russians only half-understand Church Slavonic,
                > *unless they have
                > been taught Slavonic*.


                > Before the revolution, all primary and secondary
                > schools in Russia
                > taught at least the beginnings of Church Slavonic,
                > just as Slavonic
                > used to be taught in schools in Serbia and Bulgaria,
                > before the
                > communist period.

                Father, when I woke up this morning I couldn't help
                but notice I'm living in the year 2004 and that my
                neighbors primarily speak English here in America. Are
                you suggesting American and European converts should
                learn Church Slavonic in order to fully participate in
                Divine Services?

                > But people who are active in the Church usually do
                > have some knowledge
                > of Slavonic. Thus for example many Slavonic
                > expressions have been taken
                > over into modern Russian, such as "VoVorvremjanono
                > (the usual beginning
                > of Gospel readings).

                Yes, in Russian...and not many expressions, at that.



                > But then, the King James Bible is much more recent
                > than Church
                > Slavonic, is still considered "modern English", but
                > people have to get
                > used to it also.

                Indeed they do, but it is still recognizable
                English. Russians can understand what, 60% of Slavonic
                services? How about not Russian speakers, 0%?

                > And again, the actual *content* of our liturgical
                > texts is neither
                > simple nor easily understood, in any language. Quite
                > often hearing
                > these texts in English only gives a feeling that the
                > language is
                > English -- not any immediate insight into the
                > meaning!

                If the services are that difficult to comprehend in
                English, why make it more difficult with Slavonic?

                > Furthermore, Western people, including Americans, of
                > non-Orthodox
                > background, have no problem following a service in a
                > book. This was the
                > general practice among Roman Catholics when the Mass
                > was in Latin!
                > Russians, on the other hand, do not feel at home
                > trying to use books in
                > church.

                What do the former practices of the Roman Catholic
                Church have to do with the Orthodox idea of mission?
                SS Cyril and MeMethodiusSt. Herman, et alalwere not
                creating bi-lingual prayer books and telling converts
                to "make do".


                > JRJRSMany? That means you are aware he does
                > sometimes use English too.
                > The answer to the question is that many of the
                > listeners speak Russian
                > as a first, or perhaps only, language.

                Quite frankly, many Russians in America and Europe
                can speak English. If they are living and working
                here, chances are they are able to grasp the language.
                If sermons are given in Russian though because a
                clergyman believes it will be more edifying for his
                primarily Russian speaking flock, that clergyman
                should understand that it is the equivalent to putting
                a "not welcome" sign on the door for inquirers.

                > Our churches today are packed with new people from
                > Russia. These people
                > are often like children in their approach to the
                > Church. The American
                > converts and "interested non-Orthodox" usually have
                > an entirely
                > different psychological outlook, and come already
                > prepared to hear
                > another language.

                I know many Russians in the OCOCAho have no problem
                with English as a liturgical language. Like I said
                before, they are living, working, and raising families
                here and are learning or already able to understand
                the language. Should Americans "be prepared" to hear
                another language in the Orthodox Churches, or should
                the Russians/Greeks, etc. be prepared to hear the
                language of their new countries? If you believe
                Russians won't come to a church with non-Slavonic
                services, I can't agree- I've seen many, many Russians
                at all English parishes doing just fine. Why the fear
                of Russians not being interested, but not of
                Americans/Europeans not being interested in foreign
                language services?

                >
                > They know where they have come -- and why!

                Yes, and that may be why you get some strange birds
                and rurussophilesttending all Slavonic services, while
                it seems some more "adjusted" folk have the good sense
                to attend services they can understand.


                > That is why even non-Orthodox seminaries teach New
                > Testament Greek to
                > their students: because a translation never gives
                > you every nuance of
                > the original!

                That is fine for academia, and should be
                encouraged. But, when has this ever been the norm for
                the average Orthodox parishioner? What enenlightenersf
                new lands have told the people "learn the
                Greek/Slavonic, after a 10 years you'll really
                appreciate the nuances!" Also, if you're saying that
                translations don't give the correct "nuances", perhaps
                the Russian parishes should start using Greek, as they
                are only working from translations.
                >
                > But remember this, that before Vatican II, Roman
                > Catholic seminarians
                > had to learn to speak and write Latin fluently.

                Again, what do the practices of the Roman Church
                have to do with the Orthodox?

                > Latin is not a modern spoken language. Nobody speaks
                > it except
                > scholars.

                > But it was (to some extent may still be) a valuable
                > "lingua frfrancafor
                > priests.

                If priests want to learn it, that's fine. The average
                "Joe" or even "Ivan" shouldn't be required to take up
                linguistics classes of a 9th century Bulgarian dialect
                in order to worship properly.



                > Perhaps some day you will take a vacation to Europe.
                > Munich may be
                > Munich to you, but if you go to the Russian churches
                > there, you will
                > feel that you are at home.

                Yes, I have felt at home in Russian churches, in
                Russia. This is true. But why don't Russians in
                Western Europe and America feel at home then with
                English services?

                > The truth is that due to its international
                > character, ROROCORses
                > Russian as a "lingua frfranca and in my days at
                > JoJordanvillewe had
                > students from other countries who did not speak
                > English, or only spoke
                > it poorly -- but who were at home conversing with
                > one another in
                > Russian.

                This does make sense to me.


                > Fr. John R. Shaw

                Thank you father for your response. I do not mean to
                come across as rude or confrontational, but this is an
                issue that I have personally been wrestling with.




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              • for4z@aol.com
                There certainly is much to discuss concerning recent events in Russia. I pray, however, this vigilant watch exercised by some will not overshadow the
                Message 7 of 19 , May 1 8:55 PM
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                  There certainly is much to discuss concerning recent events in Russia. I pray, however, this vigilant watch exercised by some will not overshadow the attention required here at home by the flock of the Russian Church Abroad.

                  I am aware of several instances when parishes/monastic communities were interested in joining our Church, or in fact did join, only to be neglected and forced to join other jurisdictions in their search of pastoral care and spiritual nourishment.

                  With many of our priests devoting so much time and energy to reading and hypothesizing about current events in the Russian Federation, the rest of us who are fettered by busy, secular, American daily lives hope our pastors will not forget about us: their first and foremost responsibility. It reasons our ROCOR clergy will give an answer of how they cared for the people in their own parishes, not of those in Russia.

                  I don’t believe Stephen was criticizing our Church’s practices directly, but rather wondering when ardent missionary zeal, made famous by the Russian Church on the North American and Asian continents, will be witnessed again.

                  I hope I did not overstep any boundaries in voicing my, quite realistic, concern.

                  -Nick Zaharov
                  PS…regarding the spreading Orthodoxy, the first Orthodox church in Antarctica was recently built and consecrated. The Church was built by Russians and is cared for by the Spiritual Council of the Holy Trinity-St. Sergius Lavra. Bishop Theognost of Sergiev Posad, prior of the lavra, flew to Antarctica to perform the consecration. Photos can be seen at the lavra’s website: www.stsl.ru

                  SIDE NOTE: The Patriarchate of Constantinople has officially broken eucharistic communion with the Orthodox Church of Greece, headed by Archbishop Chrystodolous.
                • Fr. John R. Shaw
                  CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN ... JRS: This too is an entirely valid point. But the problem is quite involved, and the solution is not simply to switch
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 2 4:30 AM
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                    CHRIST IS RISEN - INDEED HE IS RISEN

                    Regarding:

                    > Many, many people, when
                    > they see "Russian Orthodox (Greek, Serbian,
                    > etc)Church, are sure that one must be Russian, etc to
                    > go there. Also, it is very hard to bring English
                    > speaking inquirers to a church that is doing
                    > everything in a language that they don't understand.

                    JRS: This too is an entirely valid point. But the problem is quite
                    involved, and the solution is not simply to switch the Russian parishes
                    over to English.

                    Where possible, having one service in English and another in Slavonic
                    has usually worked well. In our parish, since we can only have a single
                    Divine Liturgy on any given day, we have the Scriptures in both
                    languages, and two (different) sermons, one in Russian and the other in
                    English (both reasonably short). Otherwise, the use of languages
                    depends on who is present and what the circumstances are: for example,
                    baptisms and weddings may be entirely in one or the other language.

                    > And again, if one can learn a language to earn a
                    > living, one should be able to learn the language to
                    > worship. Now that doesn't mean that I never want to
                    > hear Slavonic at Church, I do, but I don't think that
                    > one MUST learn Russian (or Greek, Serbian, etc,) to be
                    > Orthodox.

                    JRS: I never said that one "must" -- but doing so can be very helpful!

                    In Christ
                    Fr. John R. Shaw
                  • Fr. John R. Shaw
                    ... JRS: Are you saying that the language used would make any difference in such a case? Although, in Egyptian hieroglyphs, at least not everyone would have to
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 2 4:34 AM
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                      Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:

                      > For the List, let me mention that the well known USSR slogan so many
                      > million times repeated "Da zdrazstvuyet Kommunisticheskaya partiya"
                      > (Long live the communist party) is in Slavonic, not Russian.

                      JRS: Are you saying that the language used would make any difference in
                      such a case?

                      Although, in Egyptian hieroglyphs, at least not everyone would have to
                      know what it said...

                      In Christ
                      Fr. John R. Shaw
                    • Stephen Reske
                      ... Indeed He is Risen! Thank you for your reply, father. I do have a few questions though. ... Yes, of course. I wonder though...are liturgical language,
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 2 4:56 AM
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                        ---- "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrvrevjrsxexecpcom> wrote:
                        >
                        > X.B.!

                        Indeed He is Risen!
                        Thank you for your reply, father. I do have a few
                        questions though.

                        >
                        > To begin with, remember that ROCOR stands
                        > for "Russian
                        > Orthodox Church Outside Russia".

                        Yes, of course. I wonder though...are liturgical
                        language, Russian sermons, and a seeming lack of
                        desire to engage with your neighbors all
                        nenecessitiesf being part of the Russian Church? St.
                        Herman seemed to do a decent job of remaining
                        perfectly in the Russia tradition while preaching to
                        his neighbors and communicating in their language.

                        > ROCOR is not simply an American Church: it is an
                        > international Church,
                        > and Russian roots are what bind it together.
                        >

                        Fair enough. The Russian Church which, in reality,
                        has no real ties to Russia anymore.

                        > Yes, Russians only half-understand Church Slavonic,
                        > *unless they have
                        > been taught Slavonic*.


                        > Before the revolution, all primary and secondary
                        > schools in Russia
                        > taught at least the beginnings of Church Slavonic,
                        > just as Slavonic
                        > used to be taught in schools in Serbia and Bulgaria,
                        > before the
                        > communist period.

                        Father, when I woke up this morning I couldn't help
                        but notice I'm living in the year 2004 and that my
                        neighbors primarily speak English here in America. Are
                        you suggesting American and European converts should
                        learn Church Slavonic in order to fully participate in
                        Divine Services?

                        > But people who are active in the Church usually do
                        > have some knowledge
                        > of Slavonic. Thus for example many Slavonic
                        > expressions have been taken
                        > over into modern Russian, such as "VoVorvremjanono
                        > (the usual beginning
                        > of Gospel readings).

                        Yes, in Russian...and not many expressions, at that.



                        > But then, the King James Bible is much more recent
                        > than Church
                        > Slavonic, is still considered "modern English", but
                        > people have to get
                        > used to it also.

                        Indeed they do, but it is still recognizable
                        English. Russians can understand what, 60% of Slavonic
                        services? How about not Russian speakers, 0%?

                        > And again, the actual *content* of our liturgical
                        > texts is neither
                        > simple nor easily understood, in any language. Quite
                        > often hearing
                        > these texts in English only gives a feeling that the
                        > language is
                        > English -- not any immediate insight into the
                        > meaning!

                        If the services are that difficult to comprehend in
                        English, why make it more difficult with Slavonic?

                        > Furthermore, Western people, including Americans, of
                        > non-Orthodox
                        > background, have no problem following a service in a
                        > book. This was the
                        > general practice among Roman Catholics when the Mass
                        > was in Latin!
                        > Russians, on the other hand, do not feel at home
                        > trying to use books in
                        > church.

                        What do the former practices of the Roman Catholic
                        Church have to do with the Orthodox idea of mission?
                        SS Cyril and Methodius, St. Herman, et al were not
                        creating bi-lingual prayer books and telling converts
                        to "make do".


                        > Many? That means you are aware he does
                        > sometimes use English too.
                        > The answer to the question is that many of the
                        > listeners speak Russian
                        > as a first, or perhaps only, language.

                        Quite frankly, many Russians in America and Europe
                        can speak English. If they are living and working
                        here, chances are they are able to grasp the language.
                        If sermons are given in Russian though because a
                        clergyman believes it will be more edifying for his
                        primarily Russian speaking flock, that clergyman
                        should understand that it is the equivalent to putting
                        a "not welcome" sign on the door for inquirers.

                        > Our churches today are packed with new people from
                        > Russia. These people
                        > are often like children in their approach to the
                        > Church. The American
                        > converts and "interested non-Orthodox" usually have
                        > an entirely
                        > different psychological outlook, and come already
                        > prepared to hear
                        > another language.

                        I know many Russians in the OCA who have no problem
                        with English as a liturgical language. Like I said
                        before, they are living, working, and raising families
                        here and are learning or already able to understand
                        the language. Should Americans "be prepared" to hear
                        another language in the Orthodox Churches, or should
                        the Russians/Greeks, etc. be prepared to hear the
                        language of their new countries? If you believe
                        Russians won't come to a church with non-Slavonic
                        services, I can't agree- I've seen many, many Russians
                        at all English parishes doing just fine. Why the fear
                        of Russians not being interested, but not of
                        Americans/Europeans not being interested in foreign
                        language services?

                        >
                        > They know where they have come -- and why!

                        Yes, and that may be why you get some strange birds
                        and rusophiles attending all Slavonic services, while
                        it seems some more "adjusted" folk have the good sense
                        to attend services they can understand.


                        > That is why even non-Orthodox seminaries teach New
                        > Testament Greek to
                        > their students: because a translation never gives
                        > you every nuance of
                        > the original!

                        That is fine for academia, and should be
                        encouraged. But, when has this ever been the norm for
                        the average Orthodox parishioner? What enenlighteners
                        of new lands have told the people "learn the
                        Greek/Slavonic, after 10 years you'll really
                        appreciate the nuances!" Also, if you're saying that
                        translations don't give the correct "nuances", perhaps
                        the Russian parishes should start using Greek, as they
                        are only working from translations.
                        >
                        > But remember this, that before Vatican II, Roman
                        > Catholic seminarians
                        > had to learn to speak and write Latin fluently.

                        Again, what do the practices of the Roman Church
                        have to do with the Orthodox?

                        > Latin is not a modern spoken language. Nobody speaks
                        > it except
                        > scholars.

                        > But it was (to some extent may still be) a valuable
                        > "lingua frfrancafor
                        > priests.

                        If priests want to learn it, that's fine. The average
                        "Joe" or even "Ivan" shouldn't be required to take up
                        linguistics classes of a 9th century Bulgarian dialect
                        in order to worship properly.



                        > Perhaps some day you will take a vacation to Europe.
                        > Munich may be
                        > Munich to you, but if you go to the Russian churches
                        > there, you will
                        > feel that you are at home.

                        Yes, I have felt at home in Russian churches, in
                        Russia. This is true. But why don't Russians in
                        Western Europe and America feel at home then with
                        English services?

                        > The truth is that due to its international
                        > character, ROROCORses
                        > Russian as a "lingua frfranca and in my days at
                        > JoJordanvillewe had
                        > students from other countries who did not speak
                        > English, or only spoke
                        > it poorly -- but who were at home conversing with
                        > one another in
                        > Russian.

                        This does make sense to me.


                        > Fr. John R. Shaw

                        Thank you father for your response. I do not mean to
                        come across as rude or confrontational, but this is an
                        issue that I have personally been wrestling with.







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                      • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
                        ... Where in the world do you get this idea? The verb zdravstvovat -- literally meaning to be healthy is a word in literary contemporary Russian--it is
                        Message 11 of 19 , May 2 7:34 AM
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                          Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:


                          >For the List, let me mention that the well known USSR slogan so many
                          >million times repeated "Da zdrazstvuyet Kommunisticheskaya partiya"
                          >(Long live the communist party) is in Slavonic, not Russian.

                          Where in the world do you get this idea?

                          The verb "zdravstvovat'"-- literally meaning "to be healthy" is a word in
                          literary contemporary Russian--it is found in every Russian dictionary.

                          The use of the word "da" as a conjunction, meaning "pust'" -- "let" is part
                          of literary Russian, also found in every Russian dictionary.

                          If a Russian says: "Da zhivet on mnogiye gody," he is not speaking Church
                          Slavonic, but Russian.

                          The form "Da zdravstvuyet. . ." is, to my knowledge, not found in the
                          Slavonic texts of the Holy Scripture, or in the Church liturgical texts.

                          It is the correct, current way to say "Long live . . .".

                          In Russian.

                          And, just because a word occurs both in Church Slavonic and in literary
                          Russian, doesn't make one speak Slavonic when one uses the word.

                          When a Russian uses the word "dom"("house") is he speaking Slavonic or Russian?

                          Soon we will be told that when a Russian says "hello"-- "zdravstvujte" he
                          is not really speaking Russian.

                          Ridiculous.

                          With love in Christ,

                          Prot. Alexander Lebedeff





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • vkozyreff
                          Dear Father John, bless. What I mean is that the communist would never have chosen a language that was not clear to all Russians. Moreover, the Slavonic
                          Message 12 of 19 , May 2 7:49 AM
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                            Dear Father John, bless.

                            What I mean is that the communist would never have chosen a language
                            that was not clear to all Russians. Moreover, the Slavonic language
                            has a "torzhestviennost" (majestic-ness) that the Russian language
                            does not have. The Communists wanted to take advantage of it. This
                            topic was discussed here, about the various types of English
                            languages (St James's etc.)

                            The majestic character of the language is also among the reasons why
                            it is so precious to the orthodox and so loved by them. As one
                            knows, the communists wanted to replace our faith by theirs (anti-
                            Christ, instead of Christ).

                            In addition, the Slavonic language is used to create new Russian
                            words, like "mlekopitayuscheye" (mammal).

                            The Slavic languages are very close to one another, like the
                            Scandinavian ones. In my previous work, I used to speak in Russian
                            to Bulgarians and Macedonians, while they would reply in their
                            language and everything was clear. The Slavonic language is
                            particularly close to the Bulgarian-Macedonian languages. The
                            Slavonic language is a perfect common language for the Slavic
                            orthodox.

                            In some liturgical books for Russians, for instance, the Slavonic
                            text is accompanied by footnotes, for places that would supposedly
                            not be clear for Russians. Actually, most of those notes are
                            superfluous.

                            In French speaking countries, the French language of many past
                            centuries ("vieux français"), in spite of being significantly
                            different from the present French, is nevertheless perfectly
                            understandable by prent French speaking people.

                            In God,

                            Vladimir Kozyreff





                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                            <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                            > Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
                            >
                            > > For the List, let me mention that the well known USSR slogan so
                            many
                            > > million times repeated "Da zdrazstvuyet Kommunisticheskaya
                            partiya"
                            > > (Long live the communist party) is in Slavonic, not Russian.
                            >
                            > JRS: Are you saying that the language used would make any
                            difference in
                            > such a case?
                            >
                            > Although, in Egyptian hieroglyphs, at least not everyone would
                            have to
                            > know what it said...
                            >
                            > In Christ
                            > Fr. John R. Shaw
                          • DDD
                            Just some thoughts here, Stephen. As a convert, I used to think like that when I first came to Orthodoxy. I initially came in through a NC Greek parish (the
                            Message 13 of 19 , May 2 2:50 PM
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                              Just some thoughts here, Stephen. As a convert, I used to think like that when I first came to Orthodoxy. I initially came in through a NC Greek parish (the only church labelled Orthodox in that city). They asked, "You Grik?" I asked, "Why don't you have the services in English?" They asked, "Why don't you Americans build yourself a church like we did?"

                              1) In all humility, we Americans need to think about that a lot. There are *two* contexts in America or anywhere:
                              1) Churches built by Russians for Russians
                              2) Missionary churches built by Russians or by Americans for Americans.

                              2) The Russian churches built here *by Russians* were mainly built as Diaspora churches--not missionary churches, to serve the Russians in the Diaspora. Therefore, the Russians have every right to have their services in Slavonic, as they are accustomed, and as they would have them if they were in Russia. We Americans need to respect that.

                              3) *In that context,* as Fr. John pointed out, an American will never really (fully) understand the Russian Church Abroad unless he learns Russian, first, because there are so many publications that have not been translated into English, second, so as to communicate with Russians better and not have a "church within a Church" that has no contact with or understanding of its main Church (Russian OCOR), The latter is very, very important.

                              4) In that context, Russians are very welcoming to Americans joining their Church.

                              5) As far as missionary parishes go, I think the ideal would be to have the priest, at least, be fluent in both Russian and English--the former so he could be thoroughly acquainted with all the literature and goings on and spirit of the Church Abroad, and the latter so he could effectively communicate that to his parishioners, who could then just speak English.

                              6) It would be very good, even in missionary English parishes, if there were Russian/Slavonic classes held, so that there would not be the large gap between English-speaking converts and native Russians. If Russians can learn English, why can't we learn Russian?

                              7) It would be good for us to take a good look at exactly what St. Patriarch Tikhon (before he was Patriarch and while he was Bishop in America) was dealing with that situation. For example, I know he had blessed a Western-Rite-modified to be completely Orthodox-for America. He was doing bona fide missionary activity in America before the Revolution broke out, and we could learn a lot by finding out how he dealt with the issue.

                              Got to go now, but if anyone has more information on #7, I'd be interested.

                              --Dimitra

                              On 1 May 2004 16:42:15 -0000, orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                              From: Stephen Reske <stephen_reske@...>
                              Subject: The Mission of the Church Abroad?

                              One often sees the mission of the Church Abroad
                              defined by these two principles:

                              #1 To keep intact the Orthodox faith and tradition of
                              the historically autocephalous Russian Orthodox
                              Church.
                              #2 To carry the Orthodox faith to all countries where
                              Russians have emigrated.

                              Now, being that 1/3 or more of the Church Abroad is
                              comprised of converts to the Orthodox faith, and
                              probably another third are children and grandchildren
                              of Russian/Slavic immigrants; coupled with the
                              fact that according to many in ROCOR the Russian
                              Church in Russia is being revived in a patristic
                              manner, shouldn't these
                              principles be revised somewhat? Not that they should
                              be scrapped completely of course, but perhaps a third
                              should be added stating something like: "To bring the
                              Gospel to the non-Orthodox..." etc. This mission of
                              bringing the Orthodox faith to the non-Orthodox, which
                              all Orthodox are called to do, is already underway in
                              the Church Abroad...but who can say this is happening
                              as fully as it could be, or as fully as some of
                              ROCOR's neighbors are doing it? I suppose what I'm
                              leading up to is a question- is ROCOR (perhaps I mean
                              the hierarchy?) as concerned as they should be with
                              ministering to the people they find as their
                              neighbors?

                              Does ROCOR want the non-Orthodox to become members of
                              ROCOR? If so, why do the majority of the larger ROCOR
                              parishes/cathedrals conduct services almost entirely
                              in Church Slavonic(which the Russians don't even fully
                              understand!), with the sermon sometimes being
                              in Russian? Why does the
                              Metropolitan give many of his sermons in Russian? How
                              are American priests expected to be trained at a
                              seminary, in the tradition of the Church Abroad, where
                              classes are conducted primarily in Russian? As
                              faithful followers of St. Tikhon and St. Herman, why
                              does the missionary fervor of these saints sometimes
                              appear to be put on the "back burner" in ROCOR? How
                              does ROCOR, which still sees itself as a "church in
                              exile" from Russia, expect to respond to the
                              missionary call of the Church in a dynamic way? How
                              can a Church of the "diaspora" which sees its true
                              motherland as Russia(though a huge number of ROCOR's
                              faithful have never lived in Russia) ever not be a
                              static Church, hearkening back to bygone days- afraid
                              to confront a pluralistic modern world? The modern
                              world will not be spiritually satisfied with a
                              re-created facade of Holy Rus or Byzantium. ROCOR has
                              been outside Russia for nearly 100 years. The original
                              goal of the first members of the Synod was to return
                              to Russia in their lifetimes, as they did not expect
                              the Communist regime to last. How then, 80 years
                              later, can ROCOR still be using the same terminology
                              of "motherland" and "in exile", which reveals a
                              certain mindset. There will be no great return to
                              Russia for the vast majority of ROCOR's faithful- why
                              not accept this and begin to more fully engage with
                              the various countries where the "diaspora" finds
                              itself?

                              I wonder if the restoration of relations between ROCOR
                              and the MP will help make ROCOR more concerned with
                              the responsibility of preaching the Gospel to their
                              non-Orthodox neighbors... I certainly hope so. Maybe
                              after communion is established ROCOR will see that
                              they have in fact maintained the traditions of the
                              pre-revolutionary Russian Church and kept them in tact
                              for the Post-Soviet Russian faithful. They may see
                              that part of their mission has been accomplished and
                              now new steps can be taken to broaden their horizons a
                              bit. If
                              ROCOR were to take up this mission more fully, I'm
                              sure America and Europe would see ROCOR blossom and
                              grow like never before. Westerners are hungry for the
                              Orthodoxy of the Church Abroad, but the way it is
                              currently presented many places in ROCOR
                              makes it largely inaccessible to Westerners: Slavonic
                              services, seminaries and colloquia which teach in
                              Russian, Russian sermons, the "silvered glance" to the
                              old days, etc. If ROCOR is solely for Russians and
                              those who wish to "become" Russian, this should be
                              made more evident. If this is not the case, then ROCOR
                              should be opening its arms to the non-Orthodox more
                              fully.
                              It seems a good number of convert and "cradle" ROCOR
                              priests frequent this list, perhaps they could speak
                              on this.

                              In Christ,
                              Stephen
                            • Paul O. BARTLETT
                              ... I presume, then, that western Orthodox priests should know Latin? After all, the heritage of western Orthodoxy was transmitted in Latin, not Greek or
                              Message 14 of 19 , May 2 4:35 PM
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                                On Sat, 1 May 2004, Joachim Wertz wrote:

                                > [much trimmed] Personally I think that
                                > all priests of any liturgical tradition should at least be able to read the
                                > respective liturgical language of their Churches and traditions.

                                I presume, then, that western Orthodox priests should know Latin?
                                After all, the heritage of western Orthodoxy was transmitted in Latin,
                                not Greek or Slavonic. There are Orthodox Christians (in ROCOR itself,
                                if my information is correct) who celebrate a western Liturgy (which
                                some of them may even call Mass, horror of horrors) rather than the
                                Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil. The Latin Liturgy of
                                St. Gregory the Great and Gregorian and Ambrosian chant have ancient
                                Orthodox roots. For all I know, there may be Orthodox monks who
                                follow the Rule of St. Benedict, who as nearly as I can tell was a
                                great Orthodox saint.

                                --
                                Paul Bartlett
                                bartlett "at" smart "dot" net
                                PGP key info in message headers
                              • frvboldewskul@aol.com
                                In a message dated 5/2/04 7:35:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... This question was posed to Fr. John, but I wish to give my two cents on this one point. As
                                Message 15 of 19 , May 2 7:56 PM
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                                  In a message dated 5/2/04 7:35:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                                  stephen_reske@... writes:

                                  > .
                                  >
                                  > Father, when I woke up this morning I couldn't help
                                  > but notice I'm living in the year 2004 and that my
                                  > neighbors primarily speak English here in America. Are
                                  > you suggesting American and European converts should
                                  > learn Church Slavonic in order to fully participate in
                                  > Divine Services?
                                  >
                                  >

                                  This question was posed to Fr. John, but I wish to give my two cents on this
                                  one point. As noted by someone else in a post this afternoon, many of our
                                  parishes were founded by individuals with the intent that the language used be
                                  Church Slavonic. For example, in my parish in Cleveland, my people would have
                                  become members of one of the other 29 Orthodox Churches here, if it wasn't for
                                  this question (more so than calendar). We are a Church Slavonic parish that
                                  serves parts in English. This means we lose good people, and gain good people.
                                  But in a parish that I am starting in Sandusky OH, that parish will probably be
                                  at least 90 percent in English. In my parish in Columbus, we use a mix of
                                  50/50, although that depends on who is serving. (When Liturgy is not served, the
                                  Reader services are nearly all in English). So the issue is parish make-up. St.
                                  Sergius Parish in Cleveland is not made of 33 percent of converts, although I
                                  am pleased that in the last few years I have baptized three American converts
                                  who are faithful to the Church. I doubt that this answers the question, but I
                                  suggest considering this one point: each parish is different with its own
                                  history, for better or for worse. This history cannot be ignored and each priest
                                  needs to know his parish. There is no common formula that works in all places.

                                  Priest Victor Boldewskul


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Fr. John R. Shaw
                                  ... itself, ... JRS: Quite so. But the more you know, the better off you are! So, even for Western Rite priests, a little familiarity with things Slavonic
                                  Message 16 of 19 , May 3 5:45 AM
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                                    Paul Bartlett wrote:

                                    > I presume, then, that western Orthodox priests should know Latin?
                                    > After all, the heritage of western Orthodoxy was transmitted in Latin,
                                    > not Greek or Slavonic. There are Orthodox Christians (in ROCOR
                                    itself,
                                    > if my information is correct) who celebrate a western Liturgy...

                                    JRS: Quite so.

                                    But the more you know, the better off you are! So, even for Western
                                    Rite priests, a little familiarity with things Slavonic can't hurt...

                                    In Christ
                                    Fr. John R. Shaw
                                  • Joachim Wertz
                                    I have myself attended a Western Rite Liturgy in a church that is in ROCOR, and there were parts of the Liturgy (Mass) that were read in Latin. I would say
                                    Message 17 of 19 , May 3 9:38 AM
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                                      I have myself attended a Western Rite Liturgy in a church that is in ROCOR,
                                      and there were parts of the Liturgy (Mass) that were read in Latin. I would
                                      say that it would not be a bad idea if these Western Rite ROCOR clergy did
                                      know how to read Latin. I suspect that some at least, do. It wouldn't hurt.
                                      In my previous posting I wrote merely "read" the traditional liturgical
                                      language. I should have said "read for comprehension", and not just
                                      pronounce the services in said language. I can pronounce the Greek services,
                                      but my comprehension of the Greek liturgical language is less than 20%. It
                                      is my opinion that it is in a priest's best interest to know the traditional
                                      liturgical language (and even the modern language spoken by his Bishop), at
                                      least for his safeguarding against misunderstandings. No, I am not proposing
                                      that clergy be re-educated or that clergy wishing to join another
                                      jurisdiction should be subjected to a linguistic "litmus test". I was only
                                      speaking of an ideal and pointing out that there still is much work to be
                                      done in translating texts into languages that are not traditionally
                                      Orthodox. Then we could go into the issue of *which* translations should be
                                      standard!

                                      Christ is Risen!

                                      Joachim Wertz


                                      From: "Paul O. BARTLETT" <bartlett@...>
                                      Organization: SmartNet Private Account
                                      Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 19:35:24 -0400 (EDT)
                                      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] The Mission of the Church Abroad?


                                      On Sat, 1 May 2004, Joachim Wertz wrote:

                                      > [much trimmed] Personally I think that
                                      > all priests of any liturgical tradition should at least be able to read the
                                      > respective liturgical language of their Churches and traditions.

                                      I presume, then, that western Orthodox priests should know Latin?
                                      After all, the heritage of western Orthodoxy was transmitted in Latin,
                                      not Greek or Slavonic. There are Orthodox Christians (in ROCOR itself,
                                      if my information is correct) who celebrate a western Liturgy (which
                                      some of them may even call Mass, horror of horrors) rather than the
                                      Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil. The Latin Liturgy of
                                      St. Gregory the Great and Gregorian and Ambrosian chant have ancient
                                      Orthodox roots. For all I know, there may be Orthodox monks who
                                      follow the Rule of St. Benedict, who as nearly as I can tell was a
                                      great Orthodox saint.

                                      --
                                      Paul Bartlett
                                      bartlett "at" smart "dot" net
                                      PGP key info in message headers



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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Paul O. BARTLETT
                                      ... How many day to day (non-specialist) Russian or other Slavic Orthodox priests know Greek? After all, Slavonic ritual books themselves were translated
                                      Message 18 of 19 , May 3 5:33 PM
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                                        On Mon, 3 May 2004, Fr. John R. Shaw wrote:

                                        > Paul Bartlett wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > I presume, then, that western Orthodox priests should know Latin?
                                        > > After all, the heritage of western Orthodoxy was transmitted in Latin,
                                        > > not Greek or Slavonic. There are Orthodox Christians (in ROCOR itself,
                                        > > if my information is correct) who celebrate a western Liturgy...
                                        >
                                        > JRS: Quite so.
                                        >
                                        > But the more you know, the better off you are! So, even for Western
                                        > Rite priests, a little familiarity with things Slavonic can't hurt...

                                        How many "day to day" (non-specialist) Russian or other Slavic
                                        Orthodox priests know Greek? After all, Slavonic ritual books
                                        themselves were translated originally from Greek. (Of course, later
                                        services may have been composed in Slavonic, but I am not aware that
                                        the Divine Liturgies themselves were.) "So, even for [Eastern] Rite
                                        priests, a little familiarity with things [Greek] can't hurt".

                                        --
                                        Paul Bartlett
                                        bartlett "at" smart "dot" net
                                        PGP key info in message headers
                                      • Fr. John R. Shaw
                                        X.B.! ... JRS: It would be hard to determine how *well* they know Greek, but nevertheless, Greek is a required subject in the seminary. When I was a student at
                                        Message 19 of 19 , May 4 4:30 AM
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                                          X.B.!

                                          Paul Bartlett wrote:

                                          > How many "day to day" (non-specialist) Russian or other Slavic
                                          > Orthodox priests know Greek? After all, Slavonic ritual books
                                          > themselves were translated originally from Greek. (Of course, later
                                          > services may have been composed in Slavonic, but I am not aware that
                                          > the Divine Liturgies themselves were.) "So, even for [Eastern] Rite
                                          > priests, a little familiarity with things [Greek] can't hurt".

                                          JRS: It would be hard to determine how *well* they know Greek, but
                                          nevertheless, Greek is a required subject in the seminary.

                                          When I was a student at Jordanville, not only were we required to learn
                                          Greek, but once a year, on the feast of the Three Hierarchs, the Divine
                                          Liturgy was sung in Greek (but following the Russian Typicon).

                                          When there are Greek-speakers in church, I sometimes say certain
                                          prayers in Greek for their benefit (e.g. the prayers before communion).
                                          Our chanter, who knows both Slavonic and Greek, will also sometimes
                                          sing chants in the original Greek.

                                          Everything depends on who attends a given service.

                                          In Christ
                                          Fr. John R. Shaw
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