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MP as stalin's creation

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  • frraphver
    Dear Michael Nikitin, I will let Fr Sergei answer for himself as to what he meant. But the idea that the MP is Stalin s creation- of course if this is entirely
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 20, 2004
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      Dear Michael Nikitin,
      I will let Fr Sergei answer for himself as to what he meant.
      But the idea that the MP is Stalin's creation- of course if this is
      entirely true- then what to do?
      This morning a gentleman came up to me, what some call a 'New
      Russian.' He is an older person and was very much formed during the
      Soviet era; it is his wife who initially was the Believer. When he
      first accompanied his wife, from time to time to church, he would
      come with fur cap adorned with hammer & sickle; at meals or coffee
      he would loudly talk about the 'good things' of the Soviet Union.
      All of this the rest of us found very difficult to take. But for the
      most part we related to him as kindly as possible.
      This morning this gentlemen (minus fur cap for at least a year now)
      came up and asked me the meaning of certain Slavonic words in the
      Liturgy. When I asked him if he was baptised he said yes, of course
      and that someone in his past family had been a deacon. Thanking me
      for my explanation he said he would see me tonight at the cemetary
      for the Radonitsa Panichida. Such change in him: even his face
      looked different!
      Now why tell this story? This person truly was a creation of Stalin.
      But what to do? Cast him aside as eternally lost?; that where he
      goes the Church is not? For myself I think not. It is not that the
      Soviet era or present brokeness are not evil or wrong. Rather it is
      that we are gravely mistaken if we think the Church is the slave of
      evil; and if I understand Fr Sergei this is what his account
      illustrates.
      In the recent Orthodox America there is an account of the New Martyr
      Priest Tarasius Gorlatov. Is his obvious piety, humility and quiet
      grace amidst suffering all false because he was in the MP? Again
      this is to think that where there is evil, it reigns triumphant over
      the Church; that every fibre of every person in such a 'church' is
      evil. Thank God for all of us who are so evil (at least I am) that
      God's providence works in a contrary fashion to this. Imagine if the
      the behaviour of someone 80 years ago (even a Metropolitan) was
      somehow an unbreakable chain on all of us: what slavery! But God's
      love is bigger than that. Simply put there could never be a Church
      without this since evil is always present.
      In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
    • michael nikitin
      The people weren t the creation of Stalin. They were followers of him and his creation. One wouldn t hold the people accountable for what the president did
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 21, 2004
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        The people weren't the creation of Stalin. They were followers of him and his creation.
        One wouldn't hold the people accountable for what the president did unless they gave
        him their O.K.

        Stalin let those bishops out of the Gulags who went along with him and consecrated other bishops who were picked by Stalin(KGB agents). I am not judging them, but they did wrong. If it were me and I did same, I would be wrong. Stalin's Church was thus formed.

        We pray things will change, but the bishops pick their own. KGB agents will not pick
        someone who is not faithful to them. We see that the MP has not changed by their actions. They steal ROCOR parishes, in ecumenism, call ROCOR schismatic when they themselves are the ones who left the true Church.

        Heretics and schismatics, like the MP, have to repent from the amvon and ask ROCOR
        to be reinstated back to the true Church from which they left. This will never happen because our Synod is afraid they will be called a sect and are blinded by sugar plum bishops serving in the grandeous Churches of Russia.

        Our leaders just don't do things the way the Church teaches. They do things the way they want even if it goes against Church teachings.

        Michael N


        frraphver <frraphver@...> wrote:
        Dear Michael Nikitin,
        I will let Fr Sergei answer for himself as to what he meant.
        But the idea that the MP is Stalin's creation- of course if this is
        entirely true- then what to do?
        This morning a gentleman came up to me, what some call a 'New
        Russian.' He is an older person and was very much formed during the
        Soviet era; it is his wife who initially was the Believer. When he
        first accompanied his wife, from time to time to church, he would
        come with fur cap adorned with hammer & sickle; at meals or coffee
        he would loudly talk about the 'good things' of the Soviet Union.
        All of this the rest of us found very difficult to take. But for the
        most part we related to him as kindly as possible.
        This morning this gentlemen (minus fur cap for at least a year now)
        came up and asked me the meaning of certain Slavonic words in the
        Liturgy. When I asked him if he was baptised he said yes, of course
        and that someone in his past family had been a deacon. Thanking me
        for my explanation he said he would see me tonight at the cemetary
        for the Radonitsa Panichida. Such change in him: even his face
        looked different!
        Now why tell this story? This person truly was a creation of Stalin.
        But what to do? Cast him aside as eternally lost?; that where he
        goes the Church is not? For myself I think not. It is not that the
        Soviet era or present brokeness are not evil or wrong. Rather it is
        that we are gravely mistaken if we think the Church is the slave of
        evil; and if I understand Fr Sergei this is what his account
        illustrates.
        In the recent Orthodox America there is an account of the New Martyr
        Priest Tarasius Gorlatov. Is his obvious piety, humility and quiet
        grace amidst suffering all false because he was in the MP? Again
        this is to think that where there is evil, it reigns triumphant over
        the Church; that every fibre of every person in such a 'church' is
        evil. Thank God for all of us who are so evil (at least I am) that
        God's providence works in a contrary fashion to this. Imagine if the
        the behaviour of someone 80 years ago (even a Metropolitan) was
        somehow an unbreakable chain on all of us: what slavery! But God's
        love is bigger than that. Simply put there could never be a Church
        without this since evil is always present.
        In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack



        ---------------------------------
        Do you Yahoo!?
        Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25�

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • vkozyreff
        Dear Father Raphael, bless. You write: In the recent Orthodox America there is an account of the New Martyr Priest Tarasius Gorlatov. Is his obvious piety,
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 21, 2004
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          Dear Father Raphael, bless.

          You write: "In the recent Orthodox America there is an account of
          the New Martyr Priest Tarasius Gorlatov. Is his obvious piety,
          humility and quiet grace amidst suffering all false because he was
          in the MP?"

          Nobody says that a person is bad because he is in the MP.

          The fact however that a good person belongs to the Latinocatholic
          church does not make it the true church.

          The fact that a good person belongs to the ecumenical, schismatic
          and heretical MP "Church" does not make the latter "church"
          orthodox, does not change the fact that Stalin, not Christ founded
          it, and does not change the fact that sergianism is inherently
          incompatible with orthodoxy.

          In matters of faith, there can be no place for compromise. Love for
          Christ and truth come together. You cannot shop and take the one you
          like.

          In God,

          Vladimir Kozyreff


          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver" <frraphver@s...>
          wrote:
          > Dear Michael Nikitin,
          > I will let Fr Sergei answer for himself as to what he meant.
          > But the idea that the MP is Stalin's creation- of course if this
          is
          > entirely true- then what to do?
          > This morning a gentleman came up to me, what some call a 'New
          > Russian.' He is an older person and was very much formed during
          the
          > Soviet era; it is his wife who initially was the Believer. When he
          > first accompanied his wife, from time to time to church, he would
          > come with fur cap adorned with hammer & sickle; at meals or coffee
          > he would loudly talk about the 'good things' of the Soviet Union.
          > All of this the rest of us found very difficult to take. But for
          the
          > most part we related to him as kindly as possible.
          > This morning this gentlemen (minus fur cap for at least a year
          now)
          > came up and asked me the meaning of certain Slavonic words in the
          > Liturgy. When I asked him if he was baptised he said yes, of
          course
          > and that someone in his past family had been a deacon. Thanking me
          > for my explanation he said he would see me tonight at the cemetary
          > for the Radonitsa Panichida. Such change in him: even his face
          > looked different!
          > Now why tell this story? This person truly was a creation of
          Stalin.
          > But what to do? Cast him aside as eternally lost?; that where he
          > goes the Church is not? For myself I think not. It is not that the
          > Soviet era or present brokeness are not evil or wrong. Rather it
          is
          > that we are gravely mistaken if we think the Church is the slave
          of
          > evil; and if I understand Fr Sergei this is what his account
          > illustrates.
          > In the recent Orthodox America there is an account of the New
          Martyr
          > Priest Tarasius Gorlatov. Is his obvious piety, humility and quiet
          > grace amidst suffering all false because he was in the MP? Again
          > this is to think that where there is evil, it reigns triumphant
          over
          > the Church; that every fibre of every person in such a 'church' is
          > evil. Thank God for all of us who are so evil (at least I am) that
          > God's providence works in a contrary fashion to this. Imagine if
          the
          > the behaviour of someone 80 years ago (even a Metropolitan) was
          > somehow an unbreakable chain on all of us: what slavery! But God's
          > love is bigger than that. Simply put there could never be a Church
          > without this since evil is always present.
          > In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
        • frraphver
          ... for ... you ... ... he ... would ... coffee ... Union. ... the ... me ... cemetary ... the ... quiet ... is ... that ... God s ... Church
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 23, 2004
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            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
            <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
            > Dear Father Raphael, bless.
            >
            > You write: "In the recent Orthodox America there is an account of
            > the New Martyr Priest Tarasius Gorlatov. Is his obvious piety,
            > humility and quiet grace amidst suffering all false because he was
            > in the MP?"
            >
            > Nobody says that a person is bad because he is in the MP.
            >
            > The fact however that a good person belongs to the Latinocatholic
            > church does not make it the true church.
            >
            > The fact that a good person belongs to the ecumenical, schismatic
            > and heretical MP "Church" does not make the latter "church"
            > orthodox, does not change the fact that Stalin, not Christ founded
            > it, and does not change the fact that sergianism is inherently
            > incompatible with orthodoxy.
            >
            > In matters of faith, there can be no place for compromise. Love
            for
            > Christ and truth come together. You cannot shop and take the one
            you
            > like.
            >
            > In God,
            >
            > Vladimir Kozyreff
            >
            >
            > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver"
            <frraphver@s...>
            > wrote:
            > > Dear Michael Nikitin,
            > > I will let Fr Sergei answer for himself as to what he meant.
            > > But the idea that the MP is Stalin's creation- of course if this
            > is
            > > entirely true- then what to do?
            > > This morning a gentleman came up to me, what some call a 'New
            > > Russian.' He is an older person and was very much formed during
            > the
            > > Soviet era; it is his wife who initially was the Believer. When
            he
            > > first accompanied his wife, from time to time to church, he
            would
            > > come with fur cap adorned with hammer & sickle; at meals or
            coffee
            > > he would loudly talk about the 'good things' of the Soviet
            Union.
            > > All of this the rest of us found very difficult to take. But for
            > the
            > > most part we related to him as kindly as possible.
            > > This morning this gentlemen (minus fur cap for at least a year
            > now)
            > > came up and asked me the meaning of certain Slavonic words in
            the
            > > Liturgy. When I asked him if he was baptised he said yes, of
            > course
            > > and that someone in his past family had been a deacon. Thanking
            me
            > > for my explanation he said he would see me tonight at the
            cemetary
            > > for the Radonitsa Panichida. Such change in him: even his face
            > > looked different!
            > > Now why tell this story? This person truly was a creation of
            > Stalin.
            > > But what to do? Cast him aside as eternally lost?; that where he
            > > goes the Church is not? For myself I think not. It is not that
            the
            > > Soviet era or present brokeness are not evil or wrong. Rather it
            > is
            > > that we are gravely mistaken if we think the Church is the slave
            > of
            > > evil; and if I understand Fr Sergei this is what his account
            > > illustrates.
            > > In the recent Orthodox America there is an account of the New
            > Martyr
            > > Priest Tarasius Gorlatov. Is his obvious piety, humility and
            quiet
            > > grace amidst suffering all false because he was in the MP? Again
            > > this is to think that where there is evil, it reigns triumphant
            > over
            > > the Church; that every fibre of every person in such a 'church'
            is
            > > evil. Thank God for all of us who are so evil (at least I am)
            that
            > > God's providence works in a contrary fashion to this. Imagine if
            > the
            > > the behaviour of someone 80 years ago (even a Metropolitan) was
            > > somehow an unbreakable chain on all of us: what slavery! But
            God's
            > > love is bigger than that. Simply put there could never be a
            Church
            > > without this since evil is always present.
            > > In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack

            Dear Vladimir,
            If as is being said the MP is 'schismatic & heretical' due to
            ecumenism and sergianism the path ahead is quite clear. Since all of
            us have commited the sin of compromise with this world and many of
            us either make false excuses for this or do not recognise this sin
            in ourselves- then none of us can be in this 'church'. Literally
            this is a dead end.
            If however it is the Church of Christ that we desire we must witness
            about the sins of our Times in a humble way that admits that we also
            share in them. Sin is not equivalent to heresy; heresy is a specific
            type of sin, a conscious espousal of false teachings that directly
            deny the Faith. In any case it is the Church which discerns all of
            this through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and then applies this
            in specific cases & situations.
            I think that you have unintentionally reversed this whole way by
            which the Church lives; as if She (and us) are bound by terms such
            as 'ecumenism' and 'sergianism'. These things came from Her as She
            discerned how to navigate the waters of these stormy times; and as
            the Body of Christ She has that complete freedom to apply these
            terms in the way She sees fit & proper; this is vital & intrinsic to
            the Church's continuing ability to use discernment and love in all
            things. This does not cut the Church off from the integrity of the
            Faith, rather it confirms it since the purpose of the Faith is the
            salvation of humanity.
            Again it is simple. If those within the MP such as Fr Tarasius
            Gorlatov are not only not saints but not even Orthodox; well then we
            are truly deceived. Any holiness we saw there was false: 'the fact
            that a good person belongs to ...does not make it the true church.'
            If on the contrary however the holiness of a priest-martyr such as
            Fr Tarasius (along with so many others) points to the grace &
            Orthodoxy of the larger Church he was part of then the whole
            equation is turned on its head.
            In the end it is up to each of us how we will discern. Whether words
            such as 'sergianism' are chains that enslave & bind all despite
            their own holiness; or whether the grace of God within His Holy
            Church is greater than the sins past or present within it.
            In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
          • German Ciuba
            Dear Fr Raphael, I wholeheartedly concur with what you have written and commend the eloquence of your expression. We have to distinguish between the Church and
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 24, 2004
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              Dear Fr Raphael,
              I wholeheartedly concur with what you have written and commend the
              eloquence of your expression.
              We have to distinguish between the Church and a sect. The Church
              includes all who belong to it by Baptism and Communion. It must allow
              for disagreements; it must gather in the wheat and the tares till the
              end, when Another will sort them out. Only sects insist on complete
              agreement in every minute particular. Sectarianism can only be the
              downfall of Orthodoxy, as we see in the Greek Old Calendarist movement
              and more recently in those who have separated themselves from ROCOR and
              then continue to divide and subdivide. If we are the continuation of
              the pre-revolutionary Russian Church, we must be at least as broad as it
              was.
              Hieromonk German Ciuba.

              > > > this is to think that where there is evil, it reigns triumphant
              > > over
              > > > the Church; that every fibre of every person in such a 'church'
              > is
              > > > evil. Thank God for all of us who are so evil (at least I am)
              > that
              > > > God's providence works in a contrary fashion to this. Imagine if
              > > the
              > > > the behaviour of someone 80 years ago (even a Metropolitan) was
              > > > somehow an unbreakable chain on all of us: what slavery! But
              > God's
              > > > love is bigger than that. Simply put there could never be a
              > Church
              > > > without this since evil is always present.
              > > > In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
              >
              > Dear Vladimir,
              > If as is being said the MP is 'schismatic & heretical' due to
              > ecumenism and sergianism the path ahead is quite clear. Since all of
              > us have commited the sin of compromise with this world and many of
              > us either make false excuses for this or do not recognise this sin
              > in ourselves- then none of us can be in this 'church'. Literally
              > this is a dead end.
              > If however it is the Church of Christ that we desire we must witness
              > about the sins of our Times in a humble way that admits that we also
              > share in them. Sin is not equivalent to heresy; heresy is a specific
              > type of sin, a conscious espousal of false teachings that directly
              > deny the Faith. In any case it is the Church which discerns all of
              > this through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and then applies this
              > in specific cases & situations.
              > I think that you have unintentionally reversed this whole way by
              > which the Church lives; as if She (and us) are bound by terms such
              > as 'ecumenism' and 'sergianism'. These things came from Her as She
              > discerned how to navigate the waters of these stormy times; and as
              > the Body of Christ She has that complete freedom to apply these
              > terms in the way She sees fit & proper; this is vital & intrinsic to
              > the Church's continuing ability to use discernment and love in all
              > things. This does not cut the Church off from the integrity of the
              > Faith, rather it confirms it since the purpose of the Faith is the
              > salvation of humanity.
              > Again it is simple. If those within the MP such as Fr Tarasius
              > Gorlatov are not only not saints but not even Orthodox; well then we
              > are truly deceived. Any holiness we saw there was false: 'the fact
              > that a good person belongs to ...does not make it the true church.'
              > If on the contrary however the holiness of a priest-martyr such as
              > Fr Tarasius (along with so many others) points to the grace &
              > Orthodoxy of the larger Church he was part of then the whole
              > equation is turned on its head.
              > In the end it is up to each of us how we will discern. Whether words
              > such as 'sergianism' are chains that enslave & bind all despite
              > their own holiness; or whether the grace of God within His Holy
              > Church is greater than the sins past or present within it.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • vkozyreff
              Dear Father German, bless. You say about the Church that It must allow for disagreements . The essence of the Church is her unity, not vagueness and
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 24, 2004
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                Dear Father German, bless.

                You say about the Church that "It must allow for disagreements". The
                essence of the Church is her unity, not vagueness and disagreement
                in essential matters.

                Your definition of a sect is yours. When the communists wanted to
                discredit a group, they started by giving it a name. Anybody could
                find a name for your thinking, but it would not help.

                The Church has always been called a sect (or worse) by those who did
                not know her and by her enemies. If you are not called a sect by the
                enemies of Christ, there is something wrong with you. The idea that
                the Church had to be saved by collaboration with the enemies of
                Christ and by lying with them is however hardly "a minute detail".
                Ecumenism too is hardly a "minute detail". Both are anathema.

                Both are are the negation of orthodoxy. The MP includes them in its
                teaching and people do believe in those ideas. No wonder, as the MP
                is a creation of Stalin's aimed as destroying the faith, not a
                creation of Christ's for our salvation.

                Orthodoxy proclaims the absolute necessity of the right faith
                (ortho). In matters of faith, there can be no place for compromise.
                Many call this sectarism. Compromise in matters of faith is the
                downfall of orthodoxy.

                Do not use the agreement of a great number of people to be a
                criterion for them being in the true Church. In this matter, the
                Latino-Catholics and the atheists are better than us.

                Luke 12
                51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but
                division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided
                against each other, three against two and two against three.

                We have neither the strength nor the authority to stop Apostasy, as
                Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov stresses: "Do not attempt to stop it
                with your weak hand..." But what then should we do? "Avoid it,
                protect yourself from it, and that is enough for you. Get to know
                the spirit of the times, study it so that you can avoid its
                influence whenever possible"

                In God,

                Vladimir Kozyreff

                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, German Ciuba <hgerman@a...>
                wrote:
                > Dear Fr Raphael,
                > I wholeheartedly concur with what you have written and commend the
                > eloquence of your expression.
                > We have to distinguish between the Church and a sect. The Church
                > includes all who belong to it by Baptism and Communion. It must
                allow
                > for disagreements; it must gather in the wheat and the tares till
                the
                > end, when Another will sort them out. Only sects insist on
                complete
                > agreement in every minute particular. Sectarianism can only be the
                > downfall of Orthodoxy, as we see in the Greek Old Calendarist
                movement
                > and more recently in those who have separated themselves from
                ROCOR and
                > then continue to divide and subdivide. If we are the continuation
                of
                > the pre-revolutionary Russian Church, we must be at least as broad
                as it
                > was.
                > Hieromonk German Ciuba.
                >
                > > > > this is to think that where there is evil, it reigns
                triumphant
                > > > over
                > > > > the Church; that every fibre of every person in such
                a 'church'
                > > is
                > > > > evil. Thank God for all of us who are so evil (at least I am)
                > > that
                > > > > God's providence works in a contrary fashion to this.
                Imagine if
                > > > the
                > > > > the behaviour of someone 80 years ago (even a Metropolitan)
                was
                > > > > somehow an unbreakable chain on all of us: what slavery! But
                > > God's
                > > > > love is bigger than that. Simply put there could never be a
                > > Church
                > > > > without this since evil is always present.
                > > > > In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
                > >
                > > Dear Vladimir,
                > > If as is being said the MP is 'schismatic & heretical' due to
                > > ecumenism and sergianism the path ahead is quite clear. Since
                all of
                > > us have commited the sin of compromise with this world and many
                of
                > > us either make false excuses for this or do not recognise this
                sin
                > > in ourselves- then none of us can be in this 'church'. Literally
                > > this is a dead end.
                > > If however it is the Church of Christ that we desire we must
                witness
                > > about the sins of our Times in a humble way that admits that we
                also
                > > share in them. Sin is not equivalent to heresy; heresy is a
                specific
                > > type of sin, a conscious espousal of false teachings that
                directly
                > > deny the Faith. In any case it is the Church which discerns all
                of
                > > this through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and then applies
                this
                > > in specific cases & situations.
                > > I think that you have unintentionally reversed this whole way by
                > > which the Church lives; as if She (and us) are bound by terms
                such
                > > as 'ecumenism' and 'sergianism'. These things came from Her as
                She
                > > discerned how to navigate the waters of these stormy times; and
                as
                > > the Body of Christ She has that complete freedom to apply these
                > > terms in the way She sees fit & proper; this is vital &
                intrinsic to
                > > the Church's continuing ability to use discernment and love in
                all
                > > things. This does not cut the Church off from the integrity of
                the
                > > Faith, rather it confirms it since the purpose of the Faith is
                the
                > > salvation of humanity.
                > > Again it is simple. If those within the MP such as Fr Tarasius
                > > Gorlatov are not only not saints but not even Orthodox; well
                then we
                > > are truly deceived. Any holiness we saw there was false: 'the
                fact
                > > that a good person belongs to ...does not make it the true
                church.'
                > > If on the contrary however the holiness of a priest-martyr such
                as
                > > Fr Tarasius (along with so many others) points to the grace &
                > > Orthodoxy of the larger Church he was part of then the whole
                > > equation is turned on its head.
                > > In the end it is up to each of us how we will discern. Whether
                words
                > > such as 'sergianism' are chains that enslave & bind all despite
                > > their own holiness; or whether the grace of God within His Holy
                > > Church is greater than the sins past or present within it.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • vkozyreff
                Dear Father Raphael, bless. Thank you for your kind attention and your good words. You write: If as is being said the MP is schismatic & heretical …
                Message 7 of 19 , Apr 26, 2004
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                  Dear Father Raphael, bless.

                  Thank you for your kind attention and your good words.

                  You write: "If as is being said the MP is 'schismatic & heretical'…
                  Literally this is a dead end.

                  The truth of the matter is that the MP is schismatic and heretical by
                  nature and by origin. The question is not to know whether the MP has
                  committed sins (we all do), but to know that sergianism and ecumenism
                  are the MP's essence. The MP denies that they are sins and teaches
                  that sergianism was a bold step to take. All of us are sinners,
                  including lay people, priests and hierarchs, but Christians confess
                  to be sinners. Teaching that sergianism is not a sin cannot be the
                  Church's teaching. It is the teaching of the devil. It is apostasy,
                  and we must flee it.

                  You write: "heresy is a specific type of sin, a conscious espousal of
                  false teachings that directly deny the Faith"

                  Claiming that collaborating with the Evil one to save the Church was
                  a bold step is directly denying the real nature of the Church. The
                  Church is not to be saved by collaboration with the Gates of Hell.
                  Claiming the opposite is heretical.

                  You write: "In any case it is the Church which discerns all of this
                  through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and then applies this in
                  specific cases & situations".

                  Our Church has already made it clear that sergianism and ecumenism
                  are heretical. The new path in the ROCOR has been questioning this
                  and has prompted the schism. That is why many question that the ROCOR
                  (L) is faithful.

                  You write: "as the Body of Christ She has that complete freedom to
                  apply these terms in the way She sees fit & proper; this is vital &
                  intrinsic to the Church's continuing ability to use discernment and
                  love in all things".

                  The schism within ROCOR has forced us to make a choice as to where
                  the true Church is, as metropolitans have been contradicting one
                  another on this matter.

                  You write: "If those within the MP such as Fr Tarasius Gorlatov are
                  not only not saints but not even Orthodox".

                  If Fr Tarasius Gorlatov was in communion with a (false) bishop who
                  holds that an alliance with the Evil one was a bold step to take and
                  that ecumenism is orthodox, then Fr Tarasius Gorlatov was not
                  orthodox. I suppose that he did not share this false view with any
                  false bishop, so maybe he was not part of the MP after all.

                  He would not be orthodox, if he shared the MP's view on sergianism,
                  or if he was part of the Latino-catholic "church" or of the
                  Lutheran "church". Mother Theresa was not orthodox, however admirable
                  she may have been.

                  Whatever the sanctity of Fr Gorlatov, the Church cannot teach that
                  sergianism was right. Any institution that does cannot be the Church.
                  The ROCOR's call is to make this clear in an uncompromising way.

                  Luke 18:8 "However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on
                  the earth?"

                  In God,

                  Vladimir Kozyreff.


                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver" <frraphver@s...>
                  wrote:
                  > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                  > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                  > > Dear Father Raphael, bless.
                  > >
                  > > You write: "In the recent Orthodox America there is an account of
                  > > the New Martyr Priest Tarasius Gorlatov. Is his obvious piety,
                  > > humility and quiet grace amidst suffering all false because he
                  was
                  > > in the MP?"
                  > >
                  > > Nobody says that a person is bad because he is in the MP.
                  > >
                  > > The fact however that a good person belongs to the Latinocatholic
                  > > church does not make it the true church.
                  > >
                  > > The fact that a good person belongs to the ecumenical, schismatic
                  > > and heretical MP "Church" does not make the latter "church"
                  > > orthodox, does not change the fact that Stalin, not Christ
                  founded
                  > > it, and does not change the fact that sergianism is inherently
                  > > incompatible with orthodoxy.
                  > >
                  > > In matters of faith, there can be no place for compromise. Love
                  > for
                  > > Christ and truth come together. You cannot shop and take the one
                  > you
                  > > like.
                  > >
                  > > In God,
                  > >
                  > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver"
                  > <frraphver@s...>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > > Dear Michael Nikitin,
                  > > > I will let Fr Sergei answer for himself as to what he meant.
                  > > > But the idea that the MP is Stalin's creation- of course if
                  this
                  > > is
                  > > > entirely true- then what to do?
                  > > > This morning a gentleman came up to me, what some call a 'New
                  > > > Russian.' He is an older person and was very much formed during
                  > > the
                  > > > Soviet era; it is his wife who initially was the Believer. When
                  > he
                  > > > first accompanied his wife, from time to time to church, he
                  > would
                  > > > come with fur cap adorned with hammer & sickle; at meals or
                  > coffee
                  > > > he would loudly talk about the 'good things' of the Soviet
                  > Union.
                  > > > All of this the rest of us found very difficult to take. But
                  for
                  > > the
                  > > > most part we related to him as kindly as possible.
                  > > > This morning this gentlemen (minus fur cap for at least a year
                  > > now)
                  > > > came up and asked me the meaning of certain Slavonic words in
                  > the
                  > > > Liturgy. When I asked him if he was baptised he said yes, of
                  > > course
                  > > > and that someone in his past family had been a deacon. Thanking
                  > me
                  > > > for my explanation he said he would see me tonight at the
                  > cemetary
                  > > > for the Radonitsa Panichida. Such change in him: even his face
                  > > > looked different!
                  > > > Now why tell this story? This person truly was a creation of
                  > > Stalin.
                  > > > But what to do? Cast him aside as eternally lost?; that where
                  he
                  > > > goes the Church is not? For myself I think not. It is not that
                  > the
                  > > > Soviet era or present brokeness are not evil or wrong. Rather
                  it
                  > > is
                  > > > that we are gravely mistaken if we think the Church is the
                  slave
                  > > of
                  > > > evil; and if I understand Fr Sergei this is what his account
                  > > > illustrates.
                  > > > In the recent Orthodox America there is an account of the New
                  > > Martyr
                  > > > Priest Tarasius Gorlatov. Is his obvious piety, humility and
                  > quiet
                  > > > grace amidst suffering all false because he was in the MP?
                  Again
                  > > > this is to think that where there is evil, it reigns triumphant
                  > > over
                  > > > the Church; that every fibre of every person in such a 'church'
                  > is
                  > > > evil. Thank God for all of us who are so evil (at least I am)
                  > that
                  > > > God's providence works in a contrary fashion to this. Imagine
                  if
                  > > the
                  > > > the behaviour of someone 80 years ago (even a Metropolitan) was
                  > > > somehow an unbreakable chain on all of us: what slavery! But
                  > God's
                  > > > love is bigger than that. Simply put there could never be a
                  > Church
                  > > > without this since evil is always present.
                  > > > In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
                  >
                  > Dear Vladimir,
                  > If as is being said the MP is 'schismatic & heretical' due to
                  > ecumenism and sergianism the path ahead is quite clear. Since all
                  of
                  > us have commited the sin of compromise with this world and many of
                  > us either make false excuses for this or do not recognise this sin
                  > in ourselves- then none of us can be in this 'church'. Literally
                  > this is a dead end.
                  > If however it is the Church of Christ that we desire we must
                  witness
                  > about the sins of our Times in a humble way that admits that we
                  also
                  > share in them. Sin is not equivalent to heresy; heresy is a
                  specific
                  > type of sin, a conscious espousal of false teachings that directly
                  > deny the Faith. In any case it is the Church which discerns all of
                  > this through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and then applies this
                  > in specific cases & situations.
                  > I think that you have unintentionally reversed this whole way by
                  > which the Church lives; as if She (and us) are bound by terms such
                  > as 'ecumenism' and 'sergianism'. These things came from Her as She
                  > discerned how to navigate the waters of these stormy times; and as
                  > the Body of Christ She has that complete freedom to apply these
                  > terms in the way She sees fit & proper; this is vital & intrinsic
                  to
                  > the Church's continuing ability to use discernment and love in all
                  > things. This does not cut the Church off from the integrity of the
                  > Faith, rather it confirms it since the purpose of the Faith is the
                  > salvation of humanity.
                  > Again it is simple. If those within the MP such as Fr Tarasius
                  > Gorlatov are not only not saints but not even Orthodox; well then
                  we
                  > are truly deceived. Any holiness we saw there was false: 'the fact
                  > that a good person belongs to ...does not make it the true church.'
                  > If on the contrary however the holiness of a priest-martyr such as
                  > Fr Tarasius (along with so many others) points to the grace &
                  > Orthodoxy of the larger Church he was part of then the whole
                  > equation is turned on its head.
                  > In the end it is up to each of us how we will discern. Whether
                  words
                  > such as 'sergianism' are chains that enslave & bind all despite
                  > their own holiness; or whether the grace of God within His Holy
                  > Church is greater than the sins past or present within it.
                  > In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
                • frraphver
                  ... heretical … ... by ... has ... ecumenism ... confess ... apostasy, ... of ... was ... this ... ROCOR ... & ... and ... are ... and ... sergianism, ...
                  Message 8 of 19 , Apr 26, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                    <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                    > Dear Father Raphael, bless.
                    >
                    > Thank you for your kind attention and your good words.
                    >
                    > You write: "If as is being said the MP is 'schismatic &
                    heretical'…
                    > Literally this is a dead end.
                    >
                    > The truth of the matter is that the MP is schismatic and heretical
                    by
                    > nature and by origin. The question is not to know whether the MP
                    has
                    > committed sins (we all do), but to know that sergianism and
                    ecumenism
                    > are the MP's essence. The MP denies that they are sins and teaches
                    > that sergianism was a bold step to take. All of us are sinners,
                    > including lay people, priests and hierarchs, but Christians
                    confess
                    > to be sinners. Teaching that sergianism is not a sin cannot be the
                    > Church's teaching. It is the teaching of the devil. It is
                    apostasy,
                    > and we must flee it.
                    >
                    > You write: "heresy is a specific type of sin, a conscious espousal
                    of
                    > false teachings that directly deny the Faith"
                    >
                    > Claiming that collaborating with the Evil one to save the Church
                    was
                    > a bold step is directly denying the real nature of the Church. The
                    > Church is not to be saved by collaboration with the Gates of Hell.
                    > Claiming the opposite is heretical.
                    >
                    > You write: "In any case it is the Church which discerns all of
                    this
                    > through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and then applies this in
                    > specific cases & situations".
                    >
                    > Our Church has already made it clear that sergianism and ecumenism
                    > are heretical. The new path in the ROCOR has been questioning this
                    > and has prompted the schism. That is why many question that the
                    ROCOR
                    > (L) is faithful.
                    >
                    > You write: "as the Body of Christ She has that complete freedom to
                    > apply these terms in the way She sees fit & proper; this is vital
                    &
                    > intrinsic to the Church's continuing ability to use discernment
                    and
                    > love in all things".
                    >
                    > The schism within ROCOR has forced us to make a choice as to where
                    > the true Church is, as metropolitans have been contradicting one
                    > another on this matter.
                    >
                    > You write: "If those within the MP such as Fr Tarasius Gorlatov
                    are
                    > not only not saints but not even Orthodox".
                    >
                    > If Fr Tarasius Gorlatov was in communion with a (false) bishop who
                    > holds that an alliance with the Evil one was a bold step to take
                    and
                    > that ecumenism is orthodox, then Fr Tarasius Gorlatov was not
                    > orthodox. I suppose that he did not share this false view with any
                    > false bishop, so maybe he was not part of the MP after all.
                    >
                    > He would not be orthodox, if he shared the MP's view on
                    sergianism,
                    > or if he was part of the Latino-catholic "church" or of the
                    > Lutheran "church". Mother Theresa was not orthodox, however
                    admirable
                    > she may have been.
                    >
                    > Whatever the sanctity of Fr Gorlatov, the Church cannot teach that
                    > sergianism was right. Any institution that does cannot be the
                    Church.
                    > The ROCOR's call is to make this clear in an uncompromising way.
                    >
                    > Luke 18:8 "However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith
                    on
                    > the earth?"
                    >
                    > In God,
                    >
                    > Vladimir Kozyreff.
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver"
                    <frraphver@s...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                    > > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                    > > > Dear Father Raphael, bless.
                    > > >
                    > > > You write: "In the recent Orthodox America there is an account
                    of
                    > > > the New Martyr Priest Tarasius Gorlatov. Is his obvious piety,
                    > > > humility and quiet grace amidst suffering all false because he
                    > was
                    > > > in the MP?"
                    > > >
                    > > > Nobody says that a person is bad because he is in the MP.
                    > > >
                    > > > The fact however that a good person belongs to the
                    Latinocatholic
                    > > > church does not make it the true church.
                    > > >
                    > > > The fact that a good person belongs to the ecumenical,
                    schismatic
                    > > > and heretical MP "Church" does not make the latter "church"
                    > > > orthodox, does not change the fact that Stalin, not Christ
                    > founded
                    > > > it, and does not change the fact that sergianism is inherently
                    > > > incompatible with orthodoxy.
                    > > >
                    > > > In matters of faith, there can be no place for compromise.
                    Love
                    > > for
                    > > > Christ and truth come together. You cannot shop and take the
                    one
                    > > you
                    > > > like.
                    > > >
                    > > > In God,
                    > > >
                    > > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver"
                    > > <frraphver@s...>
                    > > > wrote:
                    > > > > Dear Michael Nikitin,
                    > > > > I will let Fr Sergei answer for himself as to what he meant.
                    > > > > But the idea that the MP is Stalin's creation- of course if
                    > this
                    > > > is
                    > > > > entirely true- then what to do?
                    > > > > This morning a gentleman came up to me, what some call
                    a 'New
                    > > > > Russian.' He is an older person and was very much formed
                    during
                    > > > the
                    > > > > Soviet era; it is his wife who initially was the Believer.
                    When
                    > > he
                    > > > > first accompanied his wife, from time to time to church, he
                    > > would
                    > > > > come with fur cap adorned with hammer & sickle; at meals or
                    > > coffee
                    > > > > he would loudly talk about the 'good things' of the Soviet
                    > > Union.
                    > > > > All of this the rest of us found very difficult to take. But
                    > for
                    > > > the
                    > > > > most part we related to him as kindly as possible.
                    > > > > This morning this gentlemen (minus fur cap for at least a
                    year
                    > > > now)
                    > > > > came up and asked me the meaning of certain Slavonic words
                    in
                    > > the
                    > > > > Liturgy. When I asked him if he was baptised he said yes, of
                    > > > course
                    > > > > and that someone in his past family had been a deacon.
                    Thanking
                    > > me
                    > > > > for my explanation he said he would see me tonight at the
                    > > cemetary
                    > > > > for the Radonitsa Panichida. Such change in him: even his
                    face
                    > > > > looked different!
                    > > > > Now why tell this story? This person truly was a creation of
                    > > > Stalin.
                    > > > > But what to do? Cast him aside as eternally lost?; that
                    where
                    > he
                    > > > > goes the Church is not? For myself I think not. It is not
                    that
                    > > the
                    > > > > Soviet era or present brokeness are not evil or wrong.
                    Rather
                    > it
                    > > > is
                    > > > > that we are gravely mistaken if we think the Church is the
                    > slave
                    > > > of
                    > > > > evil; and if I understand Fr Sergei this is what his account
                    > > > > illustrates.
                    > > > > In the recent Orthodox America there is an account of the
                    New
                    > > > Martyr
                    > > > > Priest Tarasius Gorlatov. Is his obvious piety, humility and
                    > > quiet
                    > > > > grace amidst suffering all false because he was in the MP?
                    > Again
                    > > > > this is to think that where there is evil, it reigns
                    triumphant
                    > > > over
                    > > > > the Church; that every fibre of every person in such
                    a 'church'
                    > > is
                    > > > > evil. Thank God for all of us who are so evil (at least I
                    am)
                    > > that
                    > > > > God's providence works in a contrary fashion to this.
                    Imagine
                    > if
                    > > > the
                    > > > > the behaviour of someone 80 years ago (even a Metropolitan)
                    was
                    > > > > somehow an unbreakable chain on all of us: what slavery! But
                    > > God's
                    > > > > love is bigger than that. Simply put there could never be a
                    > > Church
                    > > > > without this since evil is always present.
                    > > > > In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
                    > >
                    > > Dear Vladimir,
                    > > If as is being said the MP is 'schismatic & heretical' due to
                    > > ecumenism and sergianism the path ahead is quite clear. Since
                    all
                    > of
                    > > us have commited the sin of compromise with this world and many
                    of
                    > > us either make false excuses for this or do not recognise this
                    sin
                    > > in ourselves- then none of us can be in this 'church'. Literally
                    > > this is a dead end.
                    > > If however it is the Church of Christ that we desire we must
                    > witness
                    > > about the sins of our Times in a humble way that admits that we
                    > also
                    > > share in them. Sin is not equivalent to heresy; heresy is a
                    > specific
                    > > type of sin, a conscious espousal of false teachings that
                    directly
                    > > deny the Faith. In any case it is the Church which discerns all
                    of
                    > > this through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and then applies
                    this
                    > > in specific cases & situations.
                    > > I think that you have unintentionally reversed this whole way by
                    > > which the Church lives; as if She (and us) are bound by terms
                    such
                    > > as 'ecumenism' and 'sergianism'. These things came from Her as
                    She
                    > > discerned how to navigate the waters of these stormy times; and
                    as
                    > > the Body of Christ She has that complete freedom to apply these
                    > > terms in the way She sees fit & proper; this is vital &
                    intrinsic
                    > to
                    > > the Church's continuing ability to use discernment and love in
                    all
                    > > things. This does not cut the Church off from the integrity of
                    the
                    > > Faith, rather it confirms it since the purpose of the Faith is
                    the
                    > > salvation of humanity.
                    > > Again it is simple. If those within the MP such as Fr Tarasius
                    > > Gorlatov are not only not saints but not even Orthodox; well
                    then
                    > we
                    > > are truly deceived. Any holiness we saw there was false: 'the
                    fact
                    > > that a good person belongs to ...does not make it the true
                    church.'
                    > > If on the contrary however the holiness of a priest-martyr such
                    as
                    > > Fr Tarasius (along with so many others) points to the grace &
                    > > Orthodoxy of the larger Church he was part of then the whole
                    > > equation is turned on its head.
                    > > In the end it is up to each of us how we will discern. Whether
                    > words
                    > > such as 'sergianism' are chains that enslave & bind all despite
                    > > their own holiness; or whether the grace of God within His Holy
                    > > Church is greater than the sins past or present within it.
                    > > In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack

                    Dear Vladimir,
                    I believe that what our church has rightly called sin is falsely
                    called by some heresy. This misuse of the term heresy comes from a
                    lack of discernment not in accord with the Holy Fathers. Inevitably
                    it will lead to a 'church' of the pure who will then begin to
                    mutually reject each other as heretics also. This we already see
                    happening; 'by their fruits judge.' The choice it seems is between
                    two visions of what the Church really is.
                    In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael
                  • otto bismarc
                    ... Vladmir while communism took a toll on Orthodoxy in Russia & other communist countries, might I suggest its a bit early to denigrate the MP as schismatic
                    Message 9 of 19 , Apr 26, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@...> wrote:
                      > Dear Father Raphael, bless.
                      >
                      > Thank you for your kind attention and your good
                      > words.
                      >
                      > You write: "If as is being said the MP is
                      > 'schismatic & heretical'�
                      > Literally this is a dead end.
                      >
                      > The truth of the matter is that the MP is schismatic
                      > and heretical by
                      > nature and by origin.
                      Vladmir while communism took a toll on Orthodoxy in
                      Russia & other communist countries, might I suggest
                      its a bit early to denigrate the MP as schismatic or
                      heretical w/out the ability Christ gave to us in
                      confession: to be absolved. While we know the terrible
                      acts of Bishops against fellow Orthodox, are we so
                      "right" to proclaim one so well condemned? Obviously
                      ROCOR & the MP are ready to get into serious talks,
                      might we pray for a rightful return of the faith in
                      Russia? As well in our daily lives?
                      In Christ
                      Xenos Mann




                      __________________________________
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                    • Paul O. BARTLETT
                      ... From the viewpoint of one who is now outside looking in. It seems that there could be a danger of defining fellow Orthodox Christians out of existence.
                      Message 10 of 19 , Apr 26, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On Sun, 25 Apr 2004, vkozyreff wrote (excerpt):

                        > Do not use the agreement of a great number of people to be a
                        > criterion for them being in the true Church. In this matter, the
                        > Latino-Catholics and the atheists are better than us.

                        From the viewpoint of one who is now outside looking in. It seems
                        that there could be a danger of defining fellow Orthodox Christians out
                        of existence. It might come down to, "There are left none Orthodox on
                        earth but me and thee, and I am beginning to wonder about thee." I
                        would say that there needs to be some spiritual discernment.

                        --
                        Paul Bartlett
                        bartlett "at" smart "dot" net
                        PGP key info in message headers
                      • Rev. Sergei Overt
                        ... Paul, this is exactly what is happening. I know of a situation where a man has stopped attending church in a particular city claiming there are no more
                        Message 11 of 19 , Apr 26, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          "Paul O. BARTLETT" <bartlett@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > From the viewpoint of one who is now outside looking in. It seems
                          > that there could be a danger of defining fellow Orthodox Christians out
                          > of existence. It might come down to, "There are left none Orthodox on
                          > earth but me and thee, and I am beginning to wonder about thee." I
                          > would say that there needs to be some spiritual discernment.


                          Paul, this is exactly what is happening.
                          I know of a situation where a man has stopped attending church
                          in a particular city claiming there are no more real Orthodox churches
                          left around and he must travel to a far away foreign country to receive the
                          sacraments.
                          How do you help these people pastorally when they
                          refuse saying you must follow them into another jurisdiction
                          in a foreign country, where there is one or two bishops left
                          and their followers claim they are the last uncompromising
                          true bishops left in the whole world?

                          Or, people who have joined ROCOR parishes thinking
                          they were getting away from the Ecumenism and modernism,
                          or "bad stuff of other jurisdictions" now disappointed in ROCOR.
                          Claiming, that the way things are going they joined ROCOR for no
                          reason and will soon end up where they were in the first place.
                          In the "same kind of church" as before.
                          This has kept many in the Mansonville schism in North America.
                          Some actually feel harsher and think we are wrong because
                          we are not walling ourselves off from all the other Orthodox
                          or declaring them "Graceless".
                          I guess we could anathematize all the other Orthodox
                          and these people would like us again and come back home?
                          What is even sadder is that they are now dividing amongst
                          themselves and of course claiming they are united.
                          The schism from ROCOR is no laughing matter and has
                          hurt parishes and Orthodox families immensely.
                          Fr. S.
                        • zina kochnaya
                          I have friends in ROCOR and they are disappointed in MP. They tell me that after the putch in USSR they were expecting MP bishops to repent of Sergianism and
                          Message 12 of 19 , Apr 27, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I have friends in ROCOR and they are disappointed in MP. They tell me that after the putch in USSR they were expecting MP bishops to repent of Sergianism and leave WCC (Ecumenism), but not a single bishop did so.

                            otto bismarc <ageofmappos@...> wrote:
                            --- vkozyreff wrote:
                            > Dear Father Raphael, bless.
                            >
                            > Thank you for your kind attention and your good
                            > words.
                            >
                            > You write: "If as is being said the MP is
                            > 'schismatic & heretical'�
                            > Literally this is a dead end.
                            >
                            > The truth of the matter is that the MP is schismatic
                            > and heretical by
                            > nature and by origin.
                            Vladmir while communism took a toll on Orthodoxy in
                            Russia & other communist countries, might I suggest
                            its a bit early to denigrate the MP as schismatic or
                            heretical w/out the ability Christ gave to us in
                            confession: to be absolved. While we know the terrible
                            acts of Bishops against fellow Orthodox, are we so
                            "right" to proclaim one so well condemned? Obviously
                            ROCOR & the MP are ready to get into serious talks,
                            might we pray for a rightful return of the faith in
                            Russia? As well in our daily lives?
                            In Christ
                            Xenos Mann




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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • otto bismarc
                            ... In complete agreement Father as I went from an old-calenderistjuristiction to a new w/an option to attend old calender using SCOBA groups. Sadly I have
                            Message 13 of 19 , Apr 27, 2004
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                              --- "Rev. Sergei Overt" <frsovert@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Some actually feel harsher and think we are wrong
                              > because
                              > we are not walling ourselves off from all the other
                              > Orthodox
                              > or declaring them "Graceless".
                              > I guess we could anathematize all the other Orthodox
                              > and these people would like us again and come back
                              > home?
                              > What is even sadder is that they are now dividing
                              > amongst
                              > themselves and of course claiming they are united.
                              > The schism from ROCOR is no laughing matter and has
                              > hurt parishes and Orthodox families immensely.
                              > Fr. S.
                              >
                              In complete agreement Father as I went from an
                              old-calenderistjuristiction to a new w/an option to
                              attend old calender using SCOBA groups. Sadly I have
                              heard it from both sides, yet I must state it is less
                              on the SCOBA side. I believe we are on dangerous
                              ground to state other Orthodox arre w/out grace,
                              somewhere the most important aspect I have learned as
                              a convert is that God alone judges, aas many of these
                              problems are what? 80-100 years old & the Orthodox
                              Church is 2000 plus, it would be nice to see some
                              patience i this to see what God will grace us with.
                              In Christ
                              Xenos Mann





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                            • Rev. Sergei Overt
                              I have just one point to make about what you wrote. That is, please understand that leaving WWC will not free people from Ecumenism and Ecumenistic ideas.
                              Message 14 of 19 , Apr 28, 2004
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                                I have just one point to make about what you wrote.
                                That is, please understand that leaving WWC will
                                not free people from Ecumenism and Ecumenistic
                                ideas. ROCOR used to belong to and participate
                                in Ecumenistic Conferences before WWII.
                                After the war when the MP was forced by the
                                Communist Soviet government for propaganda
                                reasons to join this Western "religious movement",
                                the ROCOR declined and left association with
                                all such organizations trying to show that it
                                was free from all their influence.
                                As I have explained before, ROCOR did not
                                clear itself from all Ecumenism because it
                                always existed among many of the the laity in their
                                day to day religious outlook.
                                Therefore, I believe leaving formally the WCC, by
                                any Orthodox group does not guarantee a complete
                                end to ecumenistic ideas amongst those particular
                                Orthodox people. Ecumenism exists in ROCOR
                                also on the level of the laity until a new
                                generation will be taught otherwise.
                                Ecumenism is something taught as an outlook,
                                not a formal affiliation. When Russian emigrants
                                stop teaching, "Bog-odin-ism", the idea that
                                there is one and the same God for all religions and
                                that all religious worship of Him of any form
                                is equal and acceptable for all people
                                including Russian Orthodox people,
                                then ROCOR will be free of Ecumenism.
                                When priests don't have to quietly sit and listen
                                to a layman at a parish council meeting scolding him and
                                telling him off because he did not "concelebrate"
                                with a Roman Catholic clergyman at a Russian relatives
                                wedding, that took place in the Catholic Church, then I will say
                                ROCOR is free of Ecumenism!
                                Fr.S.


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "zina kochnaya" <zikonaya@...>
                                To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                                Cc: <ageofmappos@...>
                                Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 7:23 AM
                                Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: MP as stalin's creation


                                > I have friends in ROCOR and they are disappointed in MP. They tell me
                                that after the putch in USSR they were expecting MP bishops to repent of
                                Sergianism and leave WCC (Ecumenism), but not a single bishop did so.
                                >
                                > otto bismarc <ageofmappos@...> wrote:
                                > --- vkozyreff wrote:
                                > > Dear Father Raphael, bless.
                                > >
                                > > Thank you for your kind attention and your good
                                > > words.
                                > >
                                > > You write: "If as is being said the MP is
                                > > 'schismatic & heretical'…
                                > > Literally this is a dead end.
                                > >
                                > > The truth of the matter is that the MP is schismatic
                                > > and heretical by
                                > > nature and by origin.
                                > Vladmir while communism took a toll on Orthodoxy in
                                > Russia & other communist countries, might I suggest
                                > its a bit early to denigrate the MP as schismatic or
                                > heretical w/out the ability Christ gave to us in
                                > confession: to be absolved. While we know the terrible
                                > acts of Bishops against fellow Orthodox, are we so
                                > "right" to proclaim one so well condemned? Obviously
                                > ROCOR & the MP are ready to get into serious talks,
                                > might we pray for a rightful return of the faith in
                                > Russia? As well in our daily lives?
                                > In Christ
                                > Xenos Mann
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > __________________________________
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                              • byakimov@csc.com.au
                                Only observer status - in reallity not participating at all. Rev. Sergei Overt on 29/04/2004 02:49:24 AM Please respond to
                                Message 15 of 19 , Apr 28, 2004
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                                  Only observer status - in reallity not participating at all.




                                  "Rev. Sergei Overt" <frsovert@...> on 29/04/2004 02:49:24 AM

                                  Please respond to orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

                                  To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                                  cc:
                                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: MP as stalin's creation


                                  I have just one point to make about what you wrote.
                                  That is, please understand that leaving WWC will
                                  not free people from Ecumenism and Ecumenistic
                                  ideas. ROCOR used to belong to and participate
                                  in Ecumenistic Conferences before WWII.
                                  After the war when the MP was forced by the
                                  Communist Soviet government for propaganda
                                  reasons to join this Western "religious movement",
                                  the ROCOR declined and left association with
                                  all such organizations trying to show that it
                                  was free from all their influence.
                                  As I have explained before, ROCOR did not
                                  clear itself from all Ecumenism because it
                                  always existed among many of the the laity in their
                                  day to day religious outlook.
                                  Therefore, I believe leaving formally the WCC, by
                                  any Orthodox group does not guarantee a complete
                                  end to ecumenistic ideas amongst those particular
                                  Orthodox people. Ecumenism exists in ROCOR
                                  also on the level of the laity until a new
                                  generation will be taught otherwise.
                                  Ecumenism is something taught as an outlook,
                                  not a formal affiliation. When Russian emigrants
                                  stop teaching, "Bog-odin-ism", the idea that
                                  there is one and the same God for all religions and
                                  that all religious worship of Him of any form
                                  is equal and acceptable for all people
                                  including Russian Orthodox people,
                                  then ROCOR will be free of Ecumenism.
                                  When priests don't have to quietly sit and listen
                                  to a layman at a parish council meeting scolding him and
                                  telling him off because he did not "concelebrate"
                                  with a Roman Catholic clergyman at a Russian relatives
                                  wedding, that took place in the Catholic Church, then I will say
                                  ROCOR is free of Ecumenism!
                                  Fr.S.


                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "zina kochnaya" <zikonaya@...>
                                  To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Cc: <ageofmappos@...>
                                  Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 7:23 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: MP as stalin's creation


                                  > I have friends in ROCOR and they are disappointed in MP. They tell me
                                  that after the putch in USSR they were expecting MP bishops to repent of
                                  Sergianism and leave WCC (Ecumenism), but not a single bishop did so.
                                  >
                                  > otto bismarc <ageofmappos@...> wrote:
                                  > --- vkozyreff wrote:
                                  > > Dear Father Raphael, bless.
                                  > >
                                  > > Thank you for your kind attention and your good
                                  > > words.
                                  > >
                                  > > You write: "If as is being said the MP is
                                  > > 'schismatic & heretical'?
                                  > > Literally this is a dead end.
                                  > >
                                  > > The truth of the matter is that the MP is schismatic
                                  > > and heretical by
                                  > > nature and by origin.
                                  > Vladmir while communism took a toll on Orthodoxy in
                                  > Russia & other communist countries, might I suggest
                                  > its a bit early to denigrate the MP as schismatic or
                                  > heretical w/out the ability Christ gave to us in
                                  > confession: to be absolved. While we know the terrible
                                  > acts of Bishops against fellow Orthodox, are we so
                                  > "right" to proclaim one so well condemned? Obviously
                                  > ROCOR & the MP are ready to get into serious talks,
                                  > might we pray for a rightful return of the faith in
                                  > Russia? As well in our daily lives?
                                  > In Christ
                                  > Xenos Mann
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > __________________________________
                                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                                  > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
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                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ---------------------------------
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                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >



                                  Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod


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                                • vkozyreff
                                  Dear Father Sergii, bless. The latest formulation (yours) of ROCOR(L) new path position is, as I understand it: o Sergianism is terrible, but it is just a
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Apr 29, 2004
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                                    Dear Father Sergii, bless.

                                    The latest formulation (yours) of ROCOR(L) new path position is, as
                                    I understand it:

                                    o "Sergianism is terrible, but it is just a sin, not a heresy,
                                    and we may associate with it; God will judge".
                                    o "Ecumenism is terrible, but it is with us, it is a common
                                    sin among us. We have to eradicate it, but leaving the WCC would not
                                    achieve this".

                                    It is certainly an interesting evolution. The argumentation is not
                                    Father Alexander Lebedeff's any longer ("there is no definition for
                                    sergianism, so it is meaningless to talk about it") or Father John
                                    Shaw's ("There was no other way in those terrible days"). Another
                                    argument used on this forum was: "It has never been proven that the
                                    MP did collaborate". A further one has been: "They have already
                                    apologised for it". Another was: "It does not matter, since they
                                    have grace and have saints". An interesting one was: "They will soon
                                    glorify St Joseph of Petrograd". A brilliant one was: "If we
                                    assimilate the MP with their sin, it will be a dead end".
                                    A clever argument was: "There is an anti-ecumenical wing in the MP".

                                    The question is: maybe these arguments, however mutually
                                    contradictory, will convince some. But will they be a good defence
                                    at the dread judgement?

                                    The schism prompted by the decision to tolerate ecumenism and
                                    serganism has stripped the ROCOR(L)of its authority for the
                                    conversion of the MP. Was that really Christ's will?

                                    In God,

                                    Vladimir Kozyreff


                                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Rev. Sergei Overt"
                                    <frsovert@3...> wrote:
                                    > I have just one point to make about what you wrote.
                                    > That is, please understand that leaving WWC will
                                    > not free people from Ecumenism and Ecumenistic
                                    > ideas. ROCOR used to belong to and participate
                                    > in Ecumenistic Conferences before WWII.
                                    > After the war when the MP was forced by the
                                    > Communist Soviet government for propaganda
                                    > reasons to join this Western "religious movement",
                                    > the ROCOR declined and left association with
                                    > all such organizations trying to show that it
                                    > was free from all their influence.
                                    > As I have explained before, ROCOR did not
                                    > clear itself from all Ecumenism because it
                                    > always existed among many of the the laity in their
                                    > day to day religious outlook.
                                    > Therefore, I believe leaving formally the WCC, by
                                    > any Orthodox group does not guarantee a complete
                                    > end to ecumenistic ideas amongst those particular
                                    > Orthodox people. Ecumenism exists in ROCOR
                                    > also on the level of the laity until a new
                                    > generation will be taught otherwise.
                                    > Ecumenism is something taught as an outlook,
                                    > not a formal affiliation. When Russian emigrants
                                    > stop teaching, "Bog-odin-ism", the idea that
                                    > there is one and the same God for all religions and
                                    > that all religious worship of Him of any form
                                    > is equal and acceptable for all people
                                    > including Russian Orthodox people,
                                    > then ROCOR will be free of Ecumenism.
                                    > When priests don't have to quietly sit and listen
                                    > to a layman at a parish council meeting scolding him and
                                    > telling him off because he did not "concelebrate"
                                    > with a Roman Catholic clergyman at a Russian relatives
                                    > wedding, that took place in the Catholic Church, then I will say
                                    > ROCOR is free of Ecumenism!
                                    > Fr.S.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: "zina kochnaya" <zikonaya@y...>
                                    > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Cc: <ageofmappos@y...>
                                    > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 7:23 AM
                                    > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: MP as stalin's creation
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > I have friends in ROCOR and they are disappointed in MP. They
                                    tell me
                                    > that after the putch in USSR they were expecting MP bishops to
                                    repent of
                                    > Sergianism and leave WCC (Ecumenism), but not a single bishop did
                                    so.
                                    > >
                                    > > otto bismarc <ageofmappos@y...> wrote:
                                    > > --- vkozyreff wrote:
                                    > > > Dear Father Raphael, bless.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Thank you for your kind attention and your good
                                    > > > words.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > You write: "If as is being said the MP is
                                    > > > 'schismatic & heretical'…
                                    > > > Literally this is a dead end.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The truth of the matter is that the MP is schismatic
                                    > > > and heretical by
                                    > > > nature and by origin.
                                    > > Vladmir while communism took a toll on Orthodoxy in
                                    > > Russia & other communist countries, might I suggest
                                    > > its a bit early to denigrate the MP as schismatic or
                                    > > heretical w/out the ability Christ gave to us in
                                    > > confession: to be absolved. While we know the terrible
                                    > > acts of Bishops against fellow Orthodox, are we so
                                    > > "right" to proclaim one so well condemned? Obviously
                                    > > ROCOR & the MP are ready to get into serious talks,
                                    > > might we pray for a rightful return of the faith in
                                    > > Russia? As well in our daily lives?
                                    > > In Christ
                                    > > Xenos Mann
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > __________________________________
                                    > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                    > > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
                                    > > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ---------------------------------
                                    > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                    > > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                  • Rev. Sergei Overt
                                    ... Other Orthodox leaving the WCC and ROCOR staying out of it might be a good idea......... It might help our own people understand the unacceptable spiritual
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Apr 29, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Vladimir Kozyreff:

                                      > o "Sergianism is terrible, but it is just a sin, not a heresy,
                                      > and we may associate with it; God will judge".


                                      > o "Ecumenism is terrible, but it is with us, it is a common
                                      > sin among us. We have to eradicate it, but leaving the WCC would not
                                      > achieve this".

                                      Other Orthodox leaving the WCC and ROCOR staying out of it might be a good
                                      idea.........
                                      It might help our own people understand the unacceptable spiritual
                                      implications of Ecumenism if all the Orthodox left the WCC.
                                      On the other hand, it wouldn't hurt to send a few Orthodox observers
                                      and always give the WCC an erudite and courteous answer
                                      that THE Church IS Holy Orthodoxy.
                                    • vkozyreff
                                      Dear Father Raphael, bless. You write: I believe that what our church has rightly called sin is falsely called by some heresy . Kindly let me disagree with
                                      Message 18 of 19 , May 1, 2004
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Dear Father Raphael, bless.

                                        You write: " I believe that what our church has rightly called sin
                                        is falsely called by some heresy".

                                        Kindly let me disagree with you. I do not think that there are big
                                        heresies and small heresies. I do not believe that small heresies
                                        are not big enough to qualify for the title. I do not think that
                                        that they should be tolerated or that accepting them will contribute
                                        to the Church's unity.

                                        To be a heretic, it is enough to follow one's own choice or opinion
                                        instead of divine truth preserved by the Church, so as to cause
                                        division among Christians. A heresy needs not be a major heresy to
                                        be a heresy. Heresy is a system of thought which contradicts true
                                        doctrine(see Message 6300).

                                        "Heresies will spread everywhere and deceive many. The enemy of the
                                        human kind will act skilfully, if possible, leading the chosen ones
                                        to heresy. He will not begin by discarding the dogmas on the Holy
                                        Trinity, divinity of Jesus Christ, on Theotokos, but will
                                        unnoticeably start to distort the Teachings of the Holy Fathers from
                                        the Holy Spirit - the Church teaching itself (St. Anatoly of Optina).

                                        You say that refraining from calling heresies sergianism and
                                        ecumenism will save the Church's unity. This is contrary to all that
                                        the Church has been teaching about compromising in matters of faith.

                                        I suggest to the contrary that you are close to St Anatoly's
                                        prediction about the subtle and progressive adulteration of the
                                        faith by which the Devil infiltrates the Church: "They will lull
                                        their conscience saying: we will save the monastery, and the Lord
                                        will forgive us. Unfortunate and blinded, they are not even thinking
                                        that through heresies and heretics, the devil will enter the
                                        monastery, and than it will no longer be a holy monastery, but bare
                                        walls from which Grace will depart from forever".

                                        You write: "Inevitably it will lead to a 'church' of the pure who
                                        will then begin to mutually reject each other as heretics also. This
                                        we already see happening; 'by their fruits judge.' The choice it
                                        seems is between two visions of what the Church really is".

                                        The first fruits that ROCOR(L) has borne is a schism, consequent to
                                        an unprecedented mass exclusion of a whole part of ROCOR, including
                                        clerics that humbly requested to be judged by the Synod. The
                                        compromising ones expelled and divided.

                                        In God,

                                        Vladimir Kozyreff

                                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver" <frraphver@s...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                                        > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                        > > Dear Father Raphael, bless.
                                        > >
                                        > > Thank you for your kind attention and your good words.
                                        > >
                                        > > You write: "If as is being said the MP is 'schismatic &
                                        > heretical'…
                                        > > Literally this is a dead end.
                                        > >
                                        > > The truth of the matter is that the MP is schismatic and
                                        heretical
                                        > by
                                        > > nature and by origin. The question is not to know whether the MP
                                        > has
                                        > > committed sins (we all do), but to know that sergianism and
                                        > ecumenism
                                        > > are the MP's essence. The MP denies that they are sins and
                                        teaches
                                        > > that sergianism was a bold step to take. All of us are sinners,
                                        > > including lay people, priests and hierarchs, but Christians
                                        > confess
                                        > > to be sinners. Teaching that sergianism is not a sin cannot be
                                        the
                                        > > Church's teaching. It is the teaching of the devil. It is
                                        > apostasy,
                                        > > and we must flee it.
                                        > >
                                        > > You write: "heresy is a specific type of sin, a conscious
                                        espousal
                                        > of
                                        > > false teachings that directly deny the Faith"
                                        > >
                                        > > Claiming that collaborating with the Evil one to save the Church
                                        > was
                                        > > a bold step is directly denying the real nature of the Church.
                                        The
                                        > > Church is not to be saved by collaboration with the Gates of
                                        Hell.
                                        > > Claiming the opposite is heretical.
                                        > >
                                        > > You write: "In any case it is the Church which discerns all of
                                        > this
                                        > > through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and then applies this in
                                        > > specific cases & situations".
                                        > >
                                        > > Our Church has already made it clear that sergianism and
                                        ecumenism
                                        > > are heretical. The new path in the ROCOR has been questioning
                                        this
                                        > > and has prompted the schism. That is why many question that the
                                        > ROCOR
                                        > > (L) is faithful.
                                        > >
                                        > > You write: "as the Body of Christ She has that complete freedom
                                        to
                                        > > apply these terms in the way She sees fit & proper; this is
                                        vital
                                        > &
                                        > > intrinsic to the Church's continuing ability to use discernment
                                        > and
                                        > > love in all things".
                                        > >
                                        > > The schism within ROCOR has forced us to make a choice as to
                                        where
                                        > > the true Church is, as metropolitans have been contradicting one
                                        > > another on this matter.
                                        > >
                                        > > You write: "If those within the MP such as Fr Tarasius Gorlatov
                                        > are
                                        > > not only not saints but not even Orthodox".
                                        > >
                                        > > If Fr Tarasius Gorlatov was in communion with a (false) bishop
                                        who
                                        > > holds that an alliance with the Evil one was a bold step to take
                                        > and
                                        > > that ecumenism is orthodox, then Fr Tarasius Gorlatov was not
                                        > > orthodox. I suppose that he did not share this false view with
                                        any
                                        > > false bishop, so maybe he was not part of the MP after all.
                                        > >
                                        > > He would not be orthodox, if he shared the MP's view on
                                        > sergianism,
                                        > > or if he was part of the Latino-catholic "church" or of the
                                        > > Lutheran "church". Mother Theresa was not orthodox, however
                                        > admirable
                                        > > she may have been.
                                        > >
                                        > > Whatever the sanctity of Fr Gorlatov, the Church cannot teach
                                        that
                                        > > sergianism was right. Any institution that does cannot be the
                                        > Church.
                                        > > The ROCOR's call is to make this clear in an uncompromising way.
                                        > >
                                        > > Luke 18:8 "However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find
                                        faith
                                        > on
                                        > > the earth?"
                                        > >
                                        > > In God,
                                        > >
                                        > > Vladimir Kozyreff.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver"
                                        > <frraphver@s...>
                                        > > wrote:
                                        > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                                        > > > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                        > > > > Dear Father Raphael, bless.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > You write: "In the recent Orthodox America there is an
                                        account
                                        > of
                                        > > > > the New Martyr Priest Tarasius Gorlatov. Is his obvious
                                        piety,
                                        > > > > humility and quiet grace amidst suffering all false because
                                        he
                                        > > was
                                        > > > > in the MP?"
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Nobody says that a person is bad because he is in the MP.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > The fact however that a good person belongs to the
                                        > Latinocatholic
                                        > > > > church does not make it the true church.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > The fact that a good person belongs to the ecumenical,
                                        > schismatic
                                        > > > > and heretical MP "Church" does not make the latter "church"
                                        > > > > orthodox, does not change the fact that Stalin, not Christ
                                        > > founded
                                        > > > > it, and does not change the fact that sergianism is
                                        inherently
                                        > > > > incompatible with orthodoxy.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > In matters of faith, there can be no place for compromise.
                                        > Love
                                        > > > for
                                        > > > > Christ and truth come together. You cannot shop and take the
                                        > one
                                        > > > you
                                        > > > > like.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > In God,
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver"
                                        > > > <frraphver@s...>
                                        > > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > > Dear Michael Nikitin,
                                        > > > > > I will let Fr Sergei answer for himself as to what he
                                        meant.
                                        > > > > > But the idea that the MP is Stalin's creation- of course
                                        if
                                        > > this
                                        > > > > is
                                        > > > > > entirely true- then what to do?
                                        > > > > > This morning a gentleman came up to me, what some call
                                        > a 'New
                                        > > > > > Russian.' He is an older person and was very much formed
                                        > during
                                        > > > > the
                                        > > > > > Soviet era; it is his wife who initially was the Believer.
                                        > When
                                        > > > he
                                        > > > > > first accompanied his wife, from time to time to church,
                                        he
                                        > > > would
                                        > > > > > come with fur cap adorned with hammer & sickle; at meals
                                        or
                                        > > > coffee
                                        > > > > > he would loudly talk about the 'good things' of the Soviet
                                        > > > Union.
                                        > > > > > All of this the rest of us found very difficult to take.
                                        But
                                        > > for
                                        > > > > the
                                        > > > > > most part we related to him as kindly as possible.
                                        > > > > > This morning this gentlemen (minus fur cap for at least a
                                        > year
                                        > > > > now)
                                        > > > > > came up and asked me the meaning of certain Slavonic words
                                        > in
                                        > > > the
                                        > > > > > Liturgy. When I asked him if he was baptised he said yes,
                                        of
                                        > > > > course
                                        > > > > > and that someone in his past family had been a deacon.
                                        > Thanking
                                        > > > me
                                        > > > > > for my explanation he said he would see me tonight at the
                                        > > > cemetary
                                        > > > > > for the Radonitsa Panichida. Such change in him: even his
                                        > face
                                        > > > > > looked different!
                                        > > > > > Now why tell this story? This person truly was a creation
                                        of
                                        > > > > Stalin.
                                        > > > > > But what to do? Cast him aside as eternally lost?; that
                                        > where
                                        > > he
                                        > > > > > goes the Church is not? For myself I think not. It is not
                                        > that
                                        > > > the
                                        > > > > > Soviet era or present brokeness are not evil or wrong.
                                        > Rather
                                        > > it
                                        > > > > is
                                        > > > > > that we are gravely mistaken if we think the Church is the
                                        > > slave
                                        > > > > of
                                        > > > > > evil; and if I understand Fr Sergei this is what his
                                        account
                                        > > > > > illustrates.
                                        > > > > > In the recent Orthodox America there is an account of the
                                        > New
                                        > > > > Martyr
                                        > > > > > Priest Tarasius Gorlatov. Is his obvious piety, humility
                                        and
                                        > > > quiet
                                        > > > > > grace amidst suffering all false because he was in the MP?
                                        > > Again
                                        > > > > > this is to think that where there is evil, it reigns
                                        > triumphant
                                        > > > > over
                                        > > > > > the Church; that every fibre of every person in such
                                        > a 'church'
                                        > > > is
                                        > > > > > evil. Thank God for all of us who are so evil (at least I
                                        > am)
                                        > > > that
                                        > > > > > God's providence works in a contrary fashion to this.
                                        > Imagine
                                        > > if
                                        > > > > the
                                        > > > > > the behaviour of someone 80 years ago (even a
                                        Metropolitan)
                                        > was
                                        > > > > > somehow an unbreakable chain on all of us: what slavery!
                                        But
                                        > > > God's
                                        > > > > > love is bigger than that. Simply put there could never be
                                        a
                                        > > > Church
                                        > > > > > without this since evil is always present.
                                        > > > > > In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Dear Vladimir,
                                        > > > If as is being said the MP is 'schismatic & heretical' due to
                                        > > > ecumenism and sergianism the path ahead is quite clear. Since
                                        > all
                                        > > of
                                        > > > us have commited the sin of compromise with this world and
                                        many
                                        > of
                                        > > > us either make false excuses for this or do not recognise this
                                        > sin
                                        > > > in ourselves- then none of us can be in this 'church'.
                                        Literally
                                        > > > this is a dead end.
                                        > > > If however it is the Church of Christ that we desire we must
                                        > > witness
                                        > > > about the sins of our Times in a humble way that admits that
                                        we
                                        > > also
                                        > > > share in them. Sin is not equivalent to heresy; heresy is a
                                        > > specific
                                        > > > type of sin, a conscious espousal of false teachings that
                                        > directly
                                        > > > deny the Faith. In any case it is the Church which discerns
                                        all
                                        > of
                                        > > > this through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and then applies
                                        > this
                                        > > > in specific cases & situations.
                                        > > > I think that you have unintentionally reversed this whole way
                                        by
                                        > > > which the Church lives; as if She (and us) are bound by terms
                                        > such
                                        > > > as 'ecumenism' and 'sergianism'. These things came from Her as
                                        > She
                                        > > > discerned how to navigate the waters of these stormy times;
                                        and
                                        > as
                                        > > > the Body of Christ She has that complete freedom to apply
                                        these
                                        > > > terms in the way She sees fit & proper; this is vital &
                                        > intrinsic
                                        > > to
                                        > > > the Church's continuing ability to use discernment and love in
                                        > all
                                        > > > things. This does not cut the Church off from the integrity of
                                        > the
                                        > > > Faith, rather it confirms it since the purpose of the Faith is
                                        > the
                                        > > > salvation of humanity.
                                        > > > Again it is simple. If those within the MP such as Fr Tarasius
                                        > > > Gorlatov are not only not saints but not even Orthodox; well
                                        > then
                                        > > we
                                        > > > are truly deceived. Any holiness we saw there was false: 'the
                                        > fact
                                        > > > that a good person belongs to ...does not make it the true
                                        > church.'
                                        > > > If on the contrary however the holiness of a priest-martyr
                                        such
                                        > as
                                        > > > Fr Tarasius (along with so many others) points to the grace &
                                        > > > Orthodoxy of the larger Church he was part of then the whole
                                        > > > equation is turned on its head.
                                        > > > In the end it is up to each of us how we will discern. Whether
                                        > > words
                                        > > > such as 'sergianism' are chains that enslave & bind all
                                        despite
                                        > > > their own holiness; or whether the grace of God within His
                                        Holy
                                        > > > Church is greater than the sins past or present within it.
                                        > > > In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
                                        >
                                        > Dear Vladimir,
                                        > I believe that what our church has rightly called sin is falsely
                                        > called by some heresy. This misuse of the term heresy comes from a
                                        > lack of discernment not in accord with the Holy Fathers.
                                        Inevitably
                                        > it will lead to a 'church' of the pure who will then begin to
                                        > mutually reject each other as heretics also. This we already see
                                        > happening; 'by their fruits judge.' The choice it seems is between
                                        > two visions of what the Church really is.
                                        > In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael
                                      • frraphver
                                        Dear Vladimir, To be a heretic, it is enough to follow one s own choice or opinion instead of divine truth preserved by the church, so as to cause division
                                        Message 19 of 19 , May 1, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Dear Vladimir,
                                          "To be a heretic, it is enough to follow one's own choice or opinion
                                          instead of divine truth preserved by the church, so as to cause
                                          division among Christians." My point is exactly illustrated by this
                                          statement. If one was to follow what is said here then everyone of
                                          us is a heretic at every moment. Then following the logic
                                          of 'defending the faith against all heresy big & small' one ends up
                                          with a so-called church of one supposedly 'pure' person.
                                          I think that it should be evident that such a view is not a defence
                                          of the Faith but rather its destruction. As the words of St Anatoly
                                          of Optina which you quote say, "will unnoticeably start to distort
                                          the teachings of the Holy Fathers from the Holy Spirit- the Church
                                          teaching itself."
                                          In Christ- Fr Raphael







                                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                                          <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                          > Dear Father Raphael, bless.
                                          >
                                          > You write: " I believe that what our church has rightly called sin
                                          > is falsely called by some heresy".
                                          >
                                          > Kindly let me disagree with you. I do not think that there are big
                                          > heresies and small heresies. I do not believe that small heresies
                                          > are not big enough to qualify for the title. I do not think that
                                          > that they should be tolerated or that accepting them will
                                          contribute
                                          > to the Church's unity.
                                          >
                                          > To be a heretic, it is enough to follow one's own choice or
                                          opinion
                                          > instead of divine truth preserved by the Church, so as to cause
                                          > division among Christians. A heresy needs not be a major heresy to
                                          > be a heresy. Heresy is a system of thought which contradicts true
                                          > doctrine(see Message 6300).
                                          >
                                          > "Heresies will spread everywhere and deceive many. The enemy of
                                          the
                                          > human kind will act skilfully, if possible, leading the chosen
                                          ones
                                          > to heresy. He will not begin by discarding the dogmas on the Holy
                                          > Trinity, divinity of Jesus Christ, on Theotokos, but will
                                          > unnoticeably start to distort the Teachings of the Holy Fathers
                                          from
                                          > the Holy Spirit - the Church teaching itself (St. Anatoly of
                                          Optina).
                                          >
                                          > You say that refraining from calling heresies sergianism and
                                          > ecumenism will save the Church's unity. This is contrary to all
                                          that
                                          > the Church has been teaching about compromising in matters of
                                          faith.
                                          >
                                          > I suggest to the contrary that you are close to St Anatoly's
                                          > prediction about the subtle and progressive adulteration of the
                                          > faith by which the Devil infiltrates the Church: "They will lull
                                          > their conscience saying: we will save the monastery, and the Lord
                                          > will forgive us. Unfortunate and blinded, they are not even
                                          thinking
                                          > that through heresies and heretics, the devil will enter the
                                          > monastery, and than it will no longer be a holy monastery, but
                                          bare
                                          > walls from which Grace will depart from forever".
                                          >
                                          > You write: "Inevitably it will lead to a 'church' of the pure who
                                          > will then begin to mutually reject each other as heretics also.
                                          This
                                          > we already see happening; 'by their fruits judge.' The choice it
                                          > seems is between two visions of what the Church really is".
                                          >
                                          > The first fruits that ROCOR(L) has borne is a schism, consequent
                                          to
                                          > an unprecedented mass exclusion of a whole part of ROCOR,
                                          including
                                          > clerics that humbly requested to be judged by the Synod. The
                                          > compromising ones expelled and divided.
                                          >
                                          > In God,
                                          >
                                          > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                          >
                                          > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver"
                                          <frraphver@s...>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                                          > > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                          > > > Dear Father Raphael, bless.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Thank you for your kind attention and your good words.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > You write: "If as is being said the MP is 'schismatic &
                                          > > heretical'…
                                          > > > Literally this is a dead end.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The truth of the matter is that the MP is schismatic and
                                          > heretical
                                          > > by
                                          > > > nature and by origin. The question is not to know whether the
                                          MP
                                          > > has
                                          > > > committed sins (we all do), but to know that sergianism and
                                          > > ecumenism
                                          > > > are the MP's essence. The MP denies that they are sins and
                                          > teaches
                                          > > > that sergianism was a bold step to take. All of us are
                                          sinners,
                                          > > > including lay people, priests and hierarchs, but Christians
                                          > > confess
                                          > > > to be sinners. Teaching that sergianism is not a sin cannot be
                                          > the
                                          > > > Church's teaching. It is the teaching of the devil. It is
                                          > > apostasy,
                                          > > > and we must flee it.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > You write: "heresy is a specific type of sin, a conscious
                                          > espousal
                                          > > of
                                          > > > false teachings that directly deny the Faith"
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Claiming that collaborating with the Evil one to save the
                                          Church
                                          > > was
                                          > > > a bold step is directly denying the real nature of the Church.
                                          > The
                                          > > > Church is not to be saved by collaboration with the Gates of
                                          > Hell.
                                          > > > Claiming the opposite is heretical.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > You write: "In any case it is the Church which discerns all of
                                          > > this
                                          > > > through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and then applies this
                                          in
                                          > > > specific cases & situations".
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Our Church has already made it clear that sergianism and
                                          > ecumenism
                                          > > > are heretical. The new path in the ROCOR has been questioning
                                          > this
                                          > > > and has prompted the schism. That is why many question that
                                          the
                                          > > ROCOR
                                          > > > (L) is faithful.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > You write: "as the Body of Christ She has that complete
                                          freedom
                                          > to
                                          > > > apply these terms in the way She sees fit & proper; this is
                                          > vital
                                          > > &
                                          > > > intrinsic to the Church's continuing ability to use
                                          discernment
                                          > > and
                                          > > > love in all things".
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The schism within ROCOR has forced us to make a choice as to
                                          > where
                                          > > > the true Church is, as metropolitans have been contradicting
                                          one
                                          > > > another on this matter.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > You write: "If those within the MP such as Fr Tarasius
                                          Gorlatov
                                          > > are
                                          > > > not only not saints but not even Orthodox".
                                          > > >
                                          > > > If Fr Tarasius Gorlatov was in communion with a (false) bishop
                                          > who
                                          > > > holds that an alliance with the Evil one was a bold step to
                                          take
                                          > > and
                                          > > > that ecumenism is orthodox, then Fr Tarasius Gorlatov was not
                                          > > > orthodox. I suppose that he did not share this false view with
                                          > any
                                          > > > false bishop, so maybe he was not part of the MP after all.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > He would not be orthodox, if he shared the MP's view on
                                          > > sergianism,
                                          > > > or if he was part of the Latino-catholic "church" or of the
                                          > > > Lutheran "church". Mother Theresa was not orthodox, however
                                          > > admirable
                                          > > > she may have been.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Whatever the sanctity of Fr Gorlatov, the Church cannot teach
                                          > that
                                          > > > sergianism was right. Any institution that does cannot be the
                                          > > Church.
                                          > > > The ROCOR's call is to make this clear in an uncompromising
                                          way.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Luke 18:8 "However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find
                                          > faith
                                          > > on
                                          > > > the earth?"
                                          > > >
                                          > > > In God,
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Vladimir Kozyreff.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver"
                                          > > <frraphver@s...>
                                          > > > wrote:
                                          > > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff"
                                          > > > > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                          > > > > > Dear Father Raphael, bless.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > You write: "In the recent Orthodox America there is an
                                          > account
                                          > > of
                                          > > > > > the New Martyr Priest Tarasius Gorlatov. Is his obvious
                                          > piety,
                                          > > > > > humility and quiet grace amidst suffering all false
                                          because
                                          > he
                                          > > > was
                                          > > > > > in the MP?"
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Nobody says that a person is bad because he is in the MP.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > The fact however that a good person belongs to the
                                          > > Latinocatholic
                                          > > > > > church does not make it the true church.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > The fact that a good person belongs to the ecumenical,
                                          > > schismatic
                                          > > > > > and heretical MP "Church" does not make the
                                          latter "church"
                                          > > > > > orthodox, does not change the fact that Stalin, not Christ
                                          > > > founded
                                          > > > > > it, and does not change the fact that sergianism is
                                          > inherently
                                          > > > > > incompatible with orthodoxy.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > In matters of faith, there can be no place for compromise.
                                          > > Love
                                          > > > > for
                                          > > > > > Christ and truth come together. You cannot shop and take
                                          the
                                          > > one
                                          > > > > you
                                          > > > > > like.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > In God,
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver"
                                          > > > > <frraphver@s...>
                                          > > > > > wrote:
                                          > > > > > > Dear Michael Nikitin,
                                          > > > > > > I will let Fr Sergei answer for himself as to what he
                                          > meant.
                                          > > > > > > But the idea that the MP is Stalin's creation- of course
                                          > if
                                          > > > this
                                          > > > > > is
                                          > > > > > > entirely true- then what to do?
                                          > > > > > > This morning a gentleman came up to me, what some call
                                          > > a 'New
                                          > > > > > > Russian.' He is an older person and was very much formed
                                          > > during
                                          > > > > > the
                                          > > > > > > Soviet era; it is his wife who initially was the
                                          Believer.
                                          > > When
                                          > > > > he
                                          > > > > > > first accompanied his wife, from time to time to church,
                                          > he
                                          > > > > would
                                          > > > > > > come with fur cap adorned with hammer & sickle; at meals
                                          > or
                                          > > > > coffee
                                          > > > > > > he would loudly talk about the 'good things' of the
                                          Soviet
                                          > > > > Union.
                                          > > > > > > All of this the rest of us found very difficult to take.
                                          > But
                                          > > > for
                                          > > > > > the
                                          > > > > > > most part we related to him as kindly as possible.
                                          > > > > > > This morning this gentlemen (minus fur cap for at least
                                          a
                                          > > year
                                          > > > > > now)
                                          > > > > > > came up and asked me the meaning of certain Slavonic
                                          words
                                          > > in
                                          > > > > the
                                          > > > > > > Liturgy. When I asked him if he was baptised he said
                                          yes,
                                          > of
                                          > > > > > course
                                          > > > > > > and that someone in his past family had been a deacon.
                                          > > Thanking
                                          > > > > me
                                          > > > > > > for my explanation he said he would see me tonight at
                                          the
                                          > > > > cemetary
                                          > > > > > > for the Radonitsa Panichida. Such change in him: even
                                          his
                                          > > face
                                          > > > > > > looked different!
                                          > > > > > > Now why tell this story? This person truly was a
                                          creation
                                          > of
                                          > > > > > Stalin.
                                          > > > > > > But what to do? Cast him aside as eternally lost?; that
                                          > > where
                                          > > > he
                                          > > > > > > goes the Church is not? For myself I think not. It is
                                          not
                                          > > that
                                          > > > > the
                                          > > > > > > Soviet era or present brokeness are not evil or wrong.
                                          > > Rather
                                          > > > it
                                          > > > > > is
                                          > > > > > > that we are gravely mistaken if we think the Church is
                                          the
                                          > > > slave
                                          > > > > > of
                                          > > > > > > evil; and if I understand Fr Sergei this is what his
                                          > account
                                          > > > > > > illustrates.
                                          > > > > > > In the recent Orthodox America there is an account of
                                          the
                                          > > New
                                          > > > > > Martyr
                                          > > > > > > Priest Tarasius Gorlatov. Is his obvious piety, humility
                                          > and
                                          > > > > quiet
                                          > > > > > > grace amidst suffering all false because he was in the
                                          MP?
                                          > > > Again
                                          > > > > > > this is to think that where there is evil, it reigns
                                          > > triumphant
                                          > > > > > over
                                          > > > > > > the Church; that every fibre of every person in such
                                          > > a 'church'
                                          > > > > is
                                          > > > > > > evil. Thank God for all of us who are so evil (at least
                                          I
                                          > > am)
                                          > > > > that
                                          > > > > > > God's providence works in a contrary fashion to this.
                                          > > Imagine
                                          > > > if
                                          > > > > > the
                                          > > > > > > the behaviour of someone 80 years ago (even a
                                          > Metropolitan)
                                          > > was
                                          > > > > > > somehow an unbreakable chain on all of us: what slavery!
                                          > But
                                          > > > > God's
                                          > > > > > > love is bigger than that. Simply put there could never
                                          be
                                          > a
                                          > > > > Church
                                          > > > > > > without this since evil is always present.
                                          > > > > > > In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Dear Vladimir,
                                          > > > > If as is being said the MP is 'schismatic & heretical' due
                                          to
                                          > > > > ecumenism and sergianism the path ahead is quite clear.
                                          Since
                                          > > all
                                          > > > of
                                          > > > > us have commited the sin of compromise with this world and
                                          > many
                                          > > of
                                          > > > > us either make false excuses for this or do not recognise
                                          this
                                          > > sin
                                          > > > > in ourselves- then none of us can be in this 'church'.
                                          > Literally
                                          > > > > this is a dead end.
                                          > > > > If however it is the Church of Christ that we desire we must
                                          > > > witness
                                          > > > > about the sins of our Times in a humble way that admits that
                                          > we
                                          > > > also
                                          > > > > share in them. Sin is not equivalent to heresy; heresy is a
                                          > > > specific
                                          > > > > type of sin, a conscious espousal of false teachings that
                                          > > directly
                                          > > > > deny the Faith. In any case it is the Church which discerns
                                          > all
                                          > > of
                                          > > > > this through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and then
                                          applies
                                          > > this
                                          > > > > in specific cases & situations.
                                          > > > > I think that you have unintentionally reversed this whole
                                          way
                                          > by
                                          > > > > which the Church lives; as if She (and us) are bound by
                                          terms
                                          > > such
                                          > > > > as 'ecumenism' and 'sergianism'. These things came from Her
                                          as
                                          > > She
                                          > > > > discerned how to navigate the waters of these stormy times;
                                          > and
                                          > > as
                                          > > > > the Body of Christ She has that complete freedom to apply
                                          > these
                                          > > > > terms in the way She sees fit & proper; this is vital &
                                          > > intrinsic
                                          > > > to
                                          > > > > the Church's continuing ability to use discernment and love
                                          in
                                          > > all
                                          > > > > things. This does not cut the Church off from the integrity
                                          of
                                          > > the
                                          > > > > Faith, rather it confirms it since the purpose of the Faith
                                          is
                                          > > the
                                          > > > > salvation of humanity.
                                          > > > > Again it is simple. If those within the MP such as Fr
                                          Tarasius
                                          > > > > Gorlatov are not only not saints but not even Orthodox; well
                                          > > then
                                          > > > we
                                          > > > > are truly deceived. Any holiness we saw there was
                                          false: 'the
                                          > > fact
                                          > > > > that a good person belongs to ...does not make it the true
                                          > > church.'
                                          > > > > If on the contrary however the holiness of a priest-martyr
                                          > such
                                          > > as
                                          > > > > Fr Tarasius (along with so many others) points to the grace
                                          &
                                          > > > > Orthodoxy of the larger Church he was part of then the whole
                                          > > > > equation is turned on its head.
                                          > > > > In the end it is up to each of us how we will discern.
                                          Whether
                                          > > > words
                                          > > > > such as 'sergianism' are chains that enslave & bind all
                                          > despite
                                          > > > > their own holiness; or whether the grace of God within His
                                          > Holy
                                          > > > > Church is greater than the sins past or present within it.
                                          > > > > In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
                                          > >
                                          > > Dear Vladimir,
                                          > > I believe that what our church has rightly called sin is falsely
                                          > > called by some heresy. This misuse of the term heresy comes from
                                          a
                                          > > lack of discernment not in accord with the Holy Fathers.
                                          > Inevitably
                                          > > it will lead to a 'church' of the pure who will then begin to
                                          > > mutually reject each other as heretics also. This we already see
                                          > > happening; 'by their fruits judge.' The choice it seems is
                                          between
                                          > > two visions of what the Church really is.
                                          > > In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael
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