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Re: [orthodox-synod] Congratulations to Putin

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  • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
    ... So what? He is the First Hierarch of a world-wide **Russian** Orthodox Church, with parishes and monasteries in over 40 countries. The fact that the
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 1, 2004
      Zina Kochnaya wrote:

      >Metr. Laurus is an American Citizen, not Russian.

      So what? He is the First Hierarch of a world-wide **Russian** Orthodox
      Church, with parishes and monasteries in over 40 countries.

      The fact that the headquarters of the Church Abroad, at this point, happen
      to be in New York is not relevant. The center of the Church Abroad could
      just as well be in Australia, or somewhere in Europe, for that matter.


      > In fact he is Ukranian.

      He would be most surprised to find out this "fact."

      He, is, in fact, Carpatho-Russian by origin--not Ukrainian.



      >I am surprised at this news and your statement, Fr. Alexander. I don't think
      >Metr. Laurus should have sent his congratulations. It is political.


      It is not political when the leader of the Russian Church (Abroad)
      congratulates the leader of the Russian State. It is common courtesy.

      Was St. Paul's directive to pray for the pagan Roman Emperor political?


      With love in Christ,

      Prot. Alexander Lebedeff


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • byakimov@csc.com.au
      I would have congratulated the ex KGB agent Putin if he had set up a TRUTH Commission or something similar & condemned the Soviet atrocities & the butchers
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 1, 2004
        I would have congratulated the ex KGB agent Putin if he had set up a TRUTH
        Commission or something
        similar & condemned the Soviet atrocities & the butchers (the macabre
        massacre) committed against the people of Russia & Russia Herself. Instead
        he has spread the ex-KGB tentacles across post soviet Russia & is very
        proud of the soviet times. I guess there are Chekistyi in these confused &
        troubled times who are now considered to be the good guys no matter what
        their past.... indeed we live in strashneyshiya vremena as blessed in
        memory Archbishop Averky would say.... Lord Help us ALL please.

        unworthy protodeacon Basil from Canberra




        zina kochnaya <zikonaya@...> on 02/04/2004 03:58:55 AM

        Please respond to orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        cc:
        Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Congratulations to Putin


        Metr. Laurus is an American Citizen, not Russian. In fact he is Ukranian.

        I am surprised at this news and your statement, Fr. Alexander. I don't
        think
        Metr. Laurus should have sent his congratulations. It is political.

        "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...> wrote:
        Nicholas Zaharov wrote:


        >Metropolitan Laurus recently wrote a letter to Vladimer Putin, formally
        >congratulating him with his re-election to the office of President of
        >Russia. This letter has been posted on our Church's website.
        >
        >If George W. Bush is re-elected in the near future, I wonder if
        >Metropolitan Laurus will also send him a letter of congratulations. I'm
        >guessing, though, our Church will not need to do this. I do not forsee the
        >Republican Party being in a direct position to reward us. I just don't
        >know. I guess we shall soon see. Only time will tell...


        The cynicism expressed here seems to be misplaced.

        Metropolitan Laurus is the head of what is one of the two parts of the
        **Russian** Orthodox Church--not the American Orthodox Church.

        Vladimir Putin is the President of **Russia**--not America.

        President Bush heads nothing that has to do with Russia.

        What is strange about the head of a Russian Church congratulating the head
        of the Russian state with his reelection? President Putin congratulated
        Metropolitan Laurus with his election as First Hierarch--so what is strange
        about reciprocal politeness?

        Did President Bush congratulate Metropolitan Laurus when he was elected
        First Hierarch?

        No.

        By the way, I am sure that Metropolitan Laurus would expect Metropolitan
        Herman, head of the Orthodox Church in **America**, to congratulate
        President Bush, if he were to be reelected.

        Nothing strange about that, either.

        Also, another point--Metropolitan Laurus has established a personal
        relationship with President Putin, who was the host of a two-and a half
        hour long private dinner at the Russian Ambassador to the UN's residence in
        New York -- only for Metropolitan Laurus and members of the Synod of
        Bishops. President Putin at that time personally invited Metropolitan
        Laurus to make an official visit to Russia--an invitation that Metropolitan
        Laurus graciously accepted.

        As far as I know, President Bush has never invited Metropolitan Laurus to
        meet with him, or hosted a private dinner for him at the White House or
        anywhere else.

        So what is strange or sinister (or self-serving) about Metropolitan Laurus
        congratulating President Putin on his reelection?

        It seems to be the most natural and polite thing to do.

        Of course, Nicholas is not alone in putting a cynical "spin" on this
        innocuous letter of congratulations.

        The ROCiE mouthpiece in Russia (well, at least the anti-Varnava
        mouthpiece), V.G. Cherkasov-Georgievskii, posted the Letter of
        congratulations by Metropolitan Laurus on his website, with the following
        comment:

        "Here is a document, provocatively (!) posted on the official site of the
        Lavrites, which speaks to the fact that the head of the ROCOR(L) Lavr
        Shkurla, with all his might, is dying to participate in the Patriarchal
        Olympics in Moscow."

        Those who have even the slightest acquaintance with our meek, humble, and
        self-effacing First Hierarch, who would much rather be spending his time
        praying at all the monastic services at Jordanville, and spending time in
        solitude at his little and humble skete there, know how ridiculous this
        accusation is.

        I fear that there are some who think that in order to be "Genuinely
        Orthodox" we must eschew knowledge of expected diplomatic courtesy and
        elementary protocol --that we should be primitive, crude, and rude. (Now,
        **that's** real Orthodoxy!)

        I beg to disagree.






        >


        With love in Christ,

        Prot. Alexander Lebedeff


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • Fr. John R. Shaw
        ... congratulations. I m ... JRS: In 1972, when President Nixon was reelected, Archbishop Nikon (Rklitsky) of Washington and Florida, vice-President of the
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 1, 2004
          Nicholas Zaharov wrote:

          > > >If George W. Bush is re-elected in the near future, I wonder if
          > > >Metropolitan Laurus will also send him a letter of
          congratulations. I'm
          > > >guessing, though, our Church will not need to do this.

          JRS: In 1972, when President Nixon was reelected, Archbishop Nikon
          (Rklitsky) of Washington and Florida, vice-President of the Synod of
          Bishops, wrote him a letter of congratulation.

          As Vl. Nikon's secretary, I prepared that letter for his signature.

          There was a brief, but polite, reply, signed by President Nixon.

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw
        • for4z@aol.com
          It seems a fundamental goal of Orthodox Christianity is being overlooked in this discussion. Is it not our goal to spread the Word to ALL NATIONS and ALL
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 1, 2004
            It seems a fundamental goal of Orthodox Christianity is being overlooked in
            this discussion. Is it not our goal to spread the Word to ALL NATIONS and ALL
            PEOPLES? What does RUSSIAN in Russian Orthodox Church really mean? I don't
            think it means the political boundaries of RUSSIA (those have certainly changed
            over the years since St. Vladimir and, undoudtedly, will change in the
            future). I don't think it means ethnic Russians (would it not be absurd to ask
            non-Russian converts to pretend to be ethnically Russian - although readers of
            this list may have seen such suggestions over the years). Does it not seem
            appropriate that RUSSIAN in Russian Orthodox Church might best describe the lineage
            and heritage of our Church, not necessarily its political or ethnic future.
            It is clear from all the postings over the last few years that some of our
            leaders are striving for the ethnic and others for the political. I would like
            to hear from among our leaders who are more committed to ACCEPTING and
            RESPECTING ALL PEOPLES INTO RUSSIAN ORTHODOXY, REGARDLESS OF THEIR POLITICAL OR ETHNIC
            BACKGROUND. If we try to limit the Church to RUSSIAN politics, language, and
            customs, what business does the Church have in the Holy Land or on Mt. Athos?
            It is clear the Church saw a need and a business to be there and to be in
            other countries. Did St. Nicholas of Japan force the Japanese converts to speak
            Russian and accept Russian politics? No, he worked to translate service
            books into Japanese and ordained Japanese priests. Did St. Patriarch Tikhon try
            to annex North American lands to Russia because there might have been Russian
            Orthodox immigrants in North America? No, he was for the Orthodox in America
            having their own church in America. Do not all our services include prayer for
            the secular government of the COUNTRY IN WHICH THEY ARE LOCATED? Would not
            the polite action, therefore, be to congratulate lawful leaders in every
            country where we have a parish? In addition to political questions, there are many
            jurisdictional disputes today among the many different "Orthodox" Churches and
            dialog to lower boundaries, build brotherhood, and seek unity may certainly
            be a positive step. However, should this be a shield to promote
            ethno-political agendas? Are we seeking to build Orthodoxy or to promote Russia at the
            expense of other lands and peoples?

            Eugene Zaharov


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • VJB
            Dear Fr. Deacon, I should have probably simply ignored this, but I find this post very disturbing. I lived in Russia in the 80 s and early 90 s, and I know
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 1, 2004
              Dear Fr. Deacon,

              I should have probably simply ignored this, but I find this post very disturbing. I lived in Russia in the 80's and early 90's, and I know that the entire nation (including Mr. Putin) went through rethinking its past and condemned the Soviet regime with all the atrocities. One must be blind not to see that. The most vivid proof of this is the fact that the USSR has collapsed and the KPSS was banned as a political organization (do not confuse with KPRF and other similar contemporary political groups).

              I read this post as a sign of disrespect for the Russian people and their choice coming from an confused person living in Australia. Not to mention the disrespect to the First Hierarch of a part of the Russian Church. What you (and some others) seem to miss here, Fr. Deacon, is the fact that Mr. Putin was elected by the Russian people and has the right to represent the people (many of whom are Orthodox) and the country to which many of us (in the Church Abroad) are related in one way or another.

              Sincerely,

              V. Boitchenko (Albany, New York)
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: byakimov@...
              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 5:20 PM
              Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Congratulations to Putin


              I would have congratulated the ex KGB agent Putin if he had set up a TRUTH
              Commission or something
              similar & condemned the Soviet atrocities & the butchers (the macabre
              massacre) committed against the people of Russia & Russia Herself. Instead
              he has spread the ex-KGB tentacles across post soviet Russia & is very
              proud of the soviet times. I guess there are Chekistyi in these confused &
              troubled times who are now considered to be the good guys no matter what
              their past.... indeed we live in strashneyshiya vremena as blessed in
              memory Archbishop Averky would say.... Lord Help us ALL please.

              unworthy protodeacon Basil from Canberra





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • otto bismarc
              Obviously Holy Orthodoxy has been attacked by the communist past regimes, yet we have seen God s Grace that the Holy Orthodox Church still remains! Clearly a
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 2, 2004
                Obviously Holy Orthodoxy has been attacked by the
                communist past regimes, yet we have seen God's Grace
                that the Holy Orthodox Church still remains! Clearly a
                monarchy rule would be the only government supported
                by Hoy Scripture yet lets face it we always owe more
                to God than Caesar, so why be angry & resentful about
                the past, not that means to forget, let us pray as
                Archbishop Averky stated.
                In Christ
                Xenos Mann



                --- byakimov@... wrote:
                > Archbishop Averky would say.... Lord Help us
                > ALL please.
                >
                > unworthy protodeacon Basil from Canberra
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > zina kochnaya <zikonaya@...> on 02/04/2004
                > 03:58:55 AM
                >
                > Please respond to orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                > cc:
                > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Congratulations to
                > Putin
                >
                >
                > Metr. Laurus is an American Citizen, not Russian.
                > In fact he is Ukranian.
                >
                > I am surprised at this news and your statement, Fr.
                > Alexander. I don't
                > think
                > Metr. Laurus should have sent his congratulations.
                > It is political.
                >
                > "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...>
                > wrote:
                > Nicholas Zaharov wrote:
                >
                >
                > >Metropolitan Laurus recently wrote a letter to
                > Vladimer Putin, formally
                > >congratulating him with his re-election to the
                > office of President of
                > >Russia. This letter has been posted on our Church's
                > website.
                > >
                > >If George W. Bush is re-elected in the near future,
                > I wonder if
                > >Metropolitan Laurus will also send him a letter of
                > congratulations. I'm
                > >guessing, though, our Church will not need to do
                > this. I do not forsee the
                > >Republican Party being in a direct position to
                > reward us. I just don't
                > >know. I guess we shall soon see. Only time will
                > tell...
                >
                >
                > The cynicism expressed here seems to be misplaced.
                >
                > Metropolitan Laurus is the head of what is one of
                > the two parts of the
                > **Russian** Orthodox Church--not the American
                > Orthodox Church.
                >
                > Vladimir Putin is the President of **Russia**--not
                > America.
                >
                > President Bush heads nothing that has to do with
                > Russia.
                >
                > What is strange about the head of a Russian Church
                > congratulating the head
                > of the Russian state with his reelection? President
                > Putin congratulated
                > Metropolitan Laurus with his election as First
                > Hierarch--so what is strange
                > about reciprocal politeness?
                >
                > Did President Bush congratulate Metropolitan Laurus
                > when he was elected
                > First Hierarch?
                >
                > No.
                >
                > By the way, I am sure that Metropolitan Laurus would
                > expect Metropolitan
                > Herman, head of the Orthodox Church in **America**,
                > to congratulate
                > President Bush, if he were to be reelected.
                >
                > Nothing strange about that, either.
                >
                > Also, another point--Metropolitan Laurus has
                > established a personal
                > relationship with President Putin, who was the host
                > of a two-and a half
                > hour long private dinner at the Russian Ambassador
                > to the UN's residence in
                > New York -- only for Metropolitan Laurus and members
                > of the Synod of
                > Bishops. President Putin at that time personally
                > invited Metropolitan
                > Laurus to make an official visit to Russia--an
                > invitation that Metropolitan
                > Laurus graciously accepted.
                >
                > As far as I know, President Bush has never invited
                > Metropolitan Laurus to
                > meet with him, or hosted a private dinner for him at
                > the White House or
                > anywhere else.
                >
                > So what is strange or sinister (or self-serving)
                > about Metropolitan Laurus
                > congratulating President Putin on his reelection?
                >
                > It seems to be the most natural and polite thing to
                > do.
                >
                > Of course, Nicholas is not alone in putting a
                > cynical "spin" on this
                > innocuous letter of congratulations.
                >
                > The ROCiE mouthpiece in Russia (well, at least the
                > anti-Varnava
                > mouthpiece), V.G. Cherkasov-Georgievskii, posted the
                > Letter of
                > congratulations by Metropolitan Laurus on his
                > website, with the following
                > comment:
                >
                > "Here is a document, provocatively (!) posted on the
                > official site of the
                > Lavrites, which speaks to the fact that the head of
                > the ROCOR(L) Lavr
                > Shkurla, with all his might, is dying to participate
                > in the Patriarchal
                > Olympics in Moscow."
                >
                > Those who have even the slightest acquaintance with
                > our meek, humble, and
                > self-effacing First Hierarch, who would much rather
                > be spending his time
                > praying at all the monastic services at Jordanville,
                > and spending time in
                > solitude at his little and humble skete there, know
                > how ridiculous this
                > accusation is.
                >
                > I fear that there are some who think that in order
                > to be "Genuinely
                > Orthodox" we must eschew knowledge of expected
                > diplomatic courtesy and
                > elementary protocol --that we should be primitive,
                > crude, and rude. (Now,
                > **that's** real Orthodoxy!)
                >
                > I beg to disagree.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > >
                >
                >
                > With love in Christ,
                >
                > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > Archives located at
                > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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                >
                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
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              • achumakov2001
                Not that it matters much, but I ve seen an old photo album produced to commemorate some past anniversary of Met. Laurus (it must have been his 20 years as
                Message 7 of 12 , May 1 10:37 PM
                  Not that it matters much, but I've seen an old photo album produced
                  to commemorate some past anniversary of Met. Laurus (it must have
                  been his 20 years as bishop, I forgot - I have that book at home).
                  There were many congratulatory notes there, including one from the
                  White House (pres. Reagan), the Governor of NY and many others. I
                  would think that it is quite natural and within the "protocol" for a
                  Church leader to congratulate the president and to be congratulated,
                  although these congratulations rarely gain as much publicity as the
                  one to Putin.
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