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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: ROCA-ROCOR members in Moscow (Official)

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  • Fr. John R. Shaw
    ... JRS: You do not specify what is strange in his message. I m afraid I don t see anything could honestly I disagree with. The main technical problems are
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 5, 2004
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      Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
      >
      > Faher P. Holodny represented the ROCOR at this meeting. His
      > interview, published on the site below conveys a rather strange
      > message from the ROCOR.
      >
      > http://www.radiomayak.ru/society/04/02/04/27709.html

      JRS: You do not specify what is "strange" in his message. I'm afraid I
      don't see anything could honestly I disagree with.

      The main "technical" problems are indeed that each jurisdiction has
      taken in priests suspended by the other -- and that, in some places,
      there are "parallel parishes", with a hostile mutual relationship.

      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw
    • michael nikitin
      One day we faithful may wake up and find ourselves in the arms of the MP. If there is nothing wrong with attending, why are the faithful kept in the dark?
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 5, 2004
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        One day we faithful may wake up and
        find ourselves in the arms of the MP.

        If there is nothing wrong with attending, why
        are the faithful kept in the dark?

        Michael N


        "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote: Irina Pahlen wrote:

        > Dear Father John, Bless!
        >
        > Try this link, and you will see that it is confirmed.
        >
        > http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725

        JRS: After several minutes, nothing more than the logo at the top of
        the page ("VESTI") had appeared on my computer screen: no articles of
        any kind.

        However, thus far it does appear that some representatives of ROCOR are
        in Moscow.

        There is nothing wrong with that, as I see it!

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw






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      • Elena Baranov
        For many, the strangeness factor in the ROCOR -- MP encounters is the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is Archpriest Peter Holodny,
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 10, 2004
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          For many, the "strangeness" factor in the ROCOR -- MP encounters is the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is Archpriest Peter Holodny, the treasurer of ROCOR, i.e. someone who holds the purse strings and who has detailed and complete knowledge of ROCOR's assets, finances and property documents.

          The atmosphere of secrecy and denials on the part of ROCOR hierarchy adds further to the "strangeness" factor and creates a major credibility gap.

          During November 2003 visit of ROCOR bishops to Moscow, according to reports from "Nezavisimaya Gazeta" among others, the agenda for day two of the meetings focused on transfer of ROCOR properties to "Mother Church". Fr. Holodny, in his follow up interviews in Moscow, indirectly admitted that the transfer of ROCOR property is part of the dialogue.

          If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union between ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their emphasis is on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow. Hardly any value is placed on spiritual heritage or canonical issues. From the spiritual aspect, ROCOR is consistently depicted as a group of schismatics or worse -- Deacon Kuraev's recent article on ROCOR is a good example in this respect. It is unfortunate that most of these publications are not available in English translations.

          EAB
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Fr. John R. Shaw
          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com ; orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 12:14 PM
          Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: ROCA-ROCOR members in Moscow (Official)



          Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
          >
          > Faher P. Holodny represented the ROCOR at this meeting. His
          > interview, published on the site below conveys a rather strange
          > message from the ROCOR.
          >
          > http://www.radiomayak.ru/society/04/02/04/27709.html

          JRS: You do not specify what is "strange" in his message. I'm afraid I
          don't see anything could honestly I disagree with.

          The main "technical" problems are indeed that each jurisdiction has
          taken in priests suspended by the other -- and that, in some places,
          there are "parallel parishes", with a hostile mutual relationship.

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw



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        • Fr. John R. Shaw
          ... the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is Archpriest Peter Holodny, the treasurer of ROCOR, JRS: Why do you say that he is in the
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 11, 2004
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            Regarding:

            > For many, the "strangeness" factor in the ROCOR -- MP encounters is
            the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is
            Archpriest Peter Holodny, the treasurer of ROCOR,

            JRS: Why do you say that he is "in the center"? Except that his name
            recently has appeared in the news.

            i.e. someone who holds the purse strings and who has detailed and
            complete knowledge of ROCOR's assets, finances and property documents.

            JRS: Assets and finances that are *not* impressive, sad to say!

            > The atmosphere of secrecy and denials on the part of ROCOR hierarchy
            adds further to the "strangeness" factor and creates a major
            credibility gap.

            JRS: Also I see no signs of "secrecy", or of a credibility gap.

            For me, the "credibility gap" lies in ROCiE, with its systematic
            attempts to deceive the faithful, its deliberate misinformation,
            attempts to "spin" every news item into something that would somehow
            work in their favor.

            > During November 2003 visit of ROCOR bishops to Moscow, according to
            reports from "Nezavisimaya Gazeta" among others, the agenda for day two
            of the meetings focused on transfer of ROCOR properties to "Mother
            Church". Fr. Holodny, in his follow up interviews in Moscow,
            indirectly admitted that the transfer of ROCOR property is part of the
            dialogue.

            JRS: This is absolute rubbish. There has been no question of "transfer
            of properties", and this has been stated several times.

            Nor could there very well be any such transfers, since the MP does not
            own its own property!

            > If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union between
            ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their emphasis is
            on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow.

            JRS: Absolute rubbish. There may be *speculation* about such things, by
            various reporters, but there has been no such discussion of assets, nor
            will there be.

            > Hardly any value is placed on spiritual heritage or canonical
            issues. From the spiritual aspect, ROCOR is consistently depicted as a
            group of schismatics or worse -- Deacon Kuraev's recent article on
            ROCOR is a good example in this respect. It is unfortunate that most
            of these publications are not available in English translations.

            JRS: Why is that "unfortunate"? The MP has not made any such statements
            since the beginning of actual contacts; and we have people, in
            particular some deacons, in ROCOR who have made irresponsible personal
            statements.

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw
          • Fr. John R. Shaw
            ... is ... JRS: Just to show what nonsense such claims are, the Church Abroad has been very hard-pressed for funds now for a long time. The main reason for
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 11, 2004
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              Elena Baranova wrote:

              > > If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union between
              > ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their emphasis
              is
              > on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow.

              JRS: Just to show what nonsense such claims are, the Church Abroad has
              been very hard-pressed for funds now for a long time.

              The main reason for this, is that people donate so little to the
              Church.

              The recent influx of new people from Russia has not helped the problem
              at all, since many of them suppose that in America, the Church is
              supported by the goverment, or that "the Church is wealthy", as your
              own comments seem to suggest.

              My impression, in fact, is that the Patriarchal parishes outside of
              Russia are much more affluent today, than most of the parishes of ROCOR!

              The only purpose in making such absurd claims, would be to cause as
              much doubt and murmuring among our people as possible: and this, in
              turn, shows total lack of regard for the welfare of the Church and
              faithful in general; a desire merely to enhance the fortunes of ROCiE,
              and to hurt ROCOR, no matter by what means.

              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw
            • vkozyreff
              Dear Father John, bless. You say that the MP is not interested by the ROCOR properties. What is then the meaning of the well known ROCOR declaration below?
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 12, 2004
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                Dear Father John, bless.

                You say that the MP is not interested by the ROCOR properties. What
                is then the meaning of the well known ROCOR declaration below?

                "Statement of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church
                Outside of Russia to the Russian Orthodox People
                The leadership of the Moscow Patriarchate has now officially declared
                that it views the property of the Russian Church Outside of Russia as
                belonging to itself, for only it, and no other, is the "sole legal
                heir to the property of the pre-Revolutionary Church," which,
                consequently, "is being held by the schismatics abroad illegally,"
                and that such a decision "is accepted by the Orthodox believing
                people of Russia with joy and profound gratitude.""

                http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/english/pages/poslania/statementof
                synod.html

                What is the reason why Father Peter Kholodny, explicitly named as
                the "ROCOR's treasurer" went to Moscow at such an early stage of the
                union's process? One would have expected that the Synod's treasurer
                would have had nothing to discuss with the MP, unless financial
                matters were on the agenda.

                DELEGATION OF THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA VISITS
                MOSCOW

                A delegation of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
                consisting of Archbishop Mark of Berlin and Germany, Archbishop
                Hilarion of Sydney, Australia and New Zealand, Bishop Kyrill of San
                Francisco and Western America, Archpriest Nikolai Artemoff, secretary
                of the German diocese and Archpriest Peter Holodny, treasurer of the
                Synod of Bishops, arrived in Moscow on 17 November 2003 at the
                invitation of the Russian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate.

                Press-release, November 19. 2003
                http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/ne311192.htm

                We have no animosity towards Father Peter, on the contrary. Some of
                the French ROCOR (V) faithful recall that Father Peter Kholodny, who
                was spending his holidays in Cannes in June 2001, kindly attended at
                that time with the ROCOR (V) faithful, the liturgy celebrated by Vl
                Varnava, just after the latter had left the Synod (L).

                Please do not see here any "desire merely to enhance the fortunes of
                ROCiE, and to hurt ROCOR, no matter by what means", but just the wish
                to understand.

                In God,

                Vladimir Kozyreff



                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                > Elena Baranova wrote:
                >
                > > > If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union
                between
                > > ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their
                emphasis
                > is
                > > on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow.
                >
                > JRS: Just to show what nonsense such claims are, the Church Abroad
                has
                > been very hard-pressed for funds now for a long time.
                >
                > The main reason for this, is that people donate so little to the
                > Church.
                >
                > The recent influx of new people from Russia has not helped the
                problem
                > at all, since many of them suppose that in America, the Church is
                > supported by the goverment, or that "the Church is wealthy", as
                your
                > own comments seem to suggest.
                >
                > My impression, in fact, is that the Patriarchal parishes outside of
                > Russia are much more affluent today, than most of the parishes of
                ROCOR!
                >
                > The only purpose in making such absurd claims, would be to cause as
                > much doubt and murmuring among our people as possible: and this, in
                > turn, shows total lack of regard for the welfare of the Church and
                > faithful in general;
                >
                > In Christ
                > Fr. John R. Shaw
              • michael nikitin
                ROCOR s property in Jerusalem was given to the MP by those who wanted union with MP. The deed to the property mysteriously appeared in the hands of MP just
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 12, 2004
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                  ROCOR's property in Jerusalem was given to the MP by those
                  who wanted union with MP. The deed to the property mysteriously appeared
                  in the hands of MP just before the visit and procurement of the property by
                  force by our Mother Church. This was already written in the books as a prelude to
                  union.

                  Union of Mysteries now.........transfer of property later.

                  Union would have materialized long ago if the faithful
                  did not leave as did HOCNA, ROAC and ROCOR(V).

                  Now the faithful are slowly being aclimatized to the MP as to weather.

                  The assets are pretty impressive when one considers the Church property
                  in many countries belonging to ROCOR.

                  There is more to this than meets the eye.

                  Michael N


                  "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:Regarding:

                  > For many, the "strangeness" factor in the ROCOR -- MP encounters is
                  the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is
                  Archpriest Peter Holodny, the treasurer of ROCOR,

                  JRS: Why do you say that he is "in the center"? Except that his name
                  recently has appeared in the news.

                  i.e. someone who holds the purse strings and who has detailed and
                  complete knowledge of ROCOR's assets, finances and property documents.

                  JRS: Assets and finances that are *not* impressive, sad to say!

                  > The atmosphere of secrecy and denials on the part of ROCOR hierarchy
                  adds further to the "strangeness" factor and creates a major
                  credibility gap.

                  JRS: Also I see no signs of "secrecy", or of a credibility gap.

                  For me, the "credibility gap" lies in ROCiE, with its systematic
                  attempts to deceive the faithful, its deliberate misinformation,
                  attempts to "spin" every news item into something that would somehow
                  work in their favor.

                  > During November 2003 visit of ROCOR bishops to Moscow, according to
                  reports from "Nezavisimaya Gazeta" among others, the agenda for day two
                  of the meetings focused on transfer of ROCOR properties to "Mother
                  Church". Fr. Holodny, in his follow up interviews in Moscow,
                  indirectly admitted that the transfer of ROCOR property is part of the
                  dialogue.

                  JRS: This is absolute rubbish. There has been no question of "transfer
                  of properties", and this has been stated several times.

                  Nor could there very well be any such transfers, since the MP does not
                  own its own property!

                  > If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union between
                  ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their emphasis is
                  on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow.

                  JRS: Absolute rubbish. There may be *speculation* about such things, by
                  various reporters, but there has been no such discussion of assets, nor
                  will there be.

                  > Hardly any value is placed on spiritual heritage or canonical
                  issues. From the spiritual aspect, ROCOR is consistently depicted as a
                  group of schismatics or worse -- Deacon Kuraev's recent article on
                  ROCOR is a good example in this respect. It is unfortunate that most
                  of these publications are not available in English translations.

                  JRS: Why is that "unfortunate"? The MP has not made any such statements
                  since the beginning of actual contacts; and we have people, in
                  particular some deacons, in ROCOR who have made irresponsible personal
                  statements.

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw





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                • boulia_1
                  Dear Vladimir, I don t want to get too involved with this discussion, as my own knowledge of facts is limited, and, on the eve of the Great fast, i I am wont
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 12, 2004
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                    Dear Vladimir,

                    I don't want to get too involved with this discussion, as my own
                    knowledge of 'facts' is limited, and, on the eve of the Great fast, i
                    I am wont to get into argument. But one thing I, and most Synod
                    (Cathedral) people who know the Holodny family, am aware of is that
                    Fr. Peter is REGULARLY in Moscow. At one point, his entire family
                    (wife and three lovely children) took residence there, and, though
                    they decided not to stay for the childrens' sake, he may well still
                    own a home there.

                    However, his Moscow presence was NOT at ROCOR's behest, but a
                    requirement of business connected with his financial services
                    industry job. (Unfortunately, despite ideas that ROCOR is "rich,"
                    many and perhaps most of our Priests do have to take earthly jobs to
                    support their families.)

                    Hence, I suspect that there is a simple answer to the following
                    question which you posed:

                    > What is the reason why Father Peter Kholodny, explicitly named as
                    > the "ROCOR's treasurer" went to Moscow at such an early stage of
                    the
                    > union's process? One would have expected that the Synod's treasurer
                    > would have had nothing to discuss with the MP, unless financial
                    > matters were on the agenda.
                    >


                    I am CONFIDENT that Fr. Peter happened to be in Moscow at the time,
                    for OTHER reasons, and joined in, being that "his own" fellow ROCOR
                    clergy were in town (despite slanderous comments on this list to the
                    contrary, it is a RARITY for him to be among his own in Moscow, and I
                    am sure he was happy to see everyone, especially Vl. Hilarion, who
                    was at one time his ruling Bishop in NY...).

                    By the way, the press release you quote explicitly states that Father
                    Peter is treasurer of the Synod of Bishops, NOT of "ROCOR". There IS
                    a difference! And the press releadr was issued by the MP, and I think
                    they got it wrong. As far as I know (and I checked a year-old edition
                    of the ROCOR "spisok"), O. Petr is the treasurer of the NY DIOCESE
                    (and I believe of the Synod CATHEDRAL), but not of "the" Synod
                    itself.

                    I fear you are too ready to find fault and are anxiously over-
                    suspicious, in this case.

                    Wishing you peace and a blessed Fast,
                    Elizabeth
                  • Fr. John R. Shaw
                    ... JRS: The above quote does not reflect the current situation. As I have written before -- the idea that time does not pass is simply not borne out by
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 12, 2004
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                      Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:

                      > "Statement of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church
                      > Outside of Russia to the Russian Orthodox People
                      > The leadership of the Moscow Patriarchate has now officially declared
                      > that it views the property of the Russian Church Outside of Russia as
                      > belonging to itself...

                      JRS: The above quote does not reflect the current situation.

                      As I have written before -- the idea that "time does not pass" is
                      simply not borne out by reality.

                      In Christ
                      Fr. John R. Shaw
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