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Re: ROCA-ROCOR members in Moscow (Official)

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  • vkozyreff
    Dear Father John, bless. This is the text published under http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725 My translation is below. 03.02.2004 17:14, Íîâîñòü.
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 5, 2004
      Dear Father John, bless.

      This is the text published under

      http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725

      My translation is below.

      03.02.2004 17:14, Íîâîñòü. Àëåêñèé II îòêðûë Âñåìèðíûé ðóññêèé
      íàðîäíûé ñîáîð.

      Èåðàðõè ïÿòíàäöàòè Ïîìåñòíûõ ïðàâîñëàâíûõ öåðêâåé, à òàêæå Ðóññêîé
      öåðêâè çà ðóáåæîì ñîáðàëèñü â ñðåäó â ñòåíàõ Òðîèöå-Ñåðèåâîé ëàâðû íà
      Âñåìèðíûé ðóññêèé íàðîäíûé ñîáîð.

      Âïåðâûå çà ïîñëåäíèå äåñÿòü ëåò, â òå÷åíèå êîòîðûõ ïðîâîäèòñÿ ýòî
      ìåðîïðèÿòèå, â íåì ïðèíèìàþò ó÷àñòèå ïðåäñòàâèòåëè Ðóññêîé öåðêâè çà
      ðóáåæîì è ñòàðîîáðÿä÷åñêîé îáùèíû. Ïðàâîñëàâèå èñïîâåäóþò îêîëî 300
      ìèëëèîíîâ õðèñòèàí, è, îòêðûâàÿ Ñîáîð, Ïàòðèàðõ Àëåêñèé II ïðèçâàë èõ
      ê åäèíåíèþ.

      "Íàáèðàþò ñèëó èíòåãðàöèîííûå ïðîöåññû â Åâðîïå, ìóñóëüìàíñêèå
      ãîñóäàðñòâà ñòðåìÿòñÿ êîíñîëèäèðîâàòü ñâîè óñèëèÿ íà ìåæäóíàðîäíîé
      àðåíå. Ìîãóò ëè â òàêèõ óñëîâèÿõ îñòàâàòüñÿ ðàçîáùåííûìè ñòðàíû ñ
      ìíîãîâåêîâîé ïðàâîñëàâíîé êóëüòóðîé?" - çàÿâèë Àëåêñèé II.

      The Hierarchs of fifteen local orthodox churches, and also the
      Russian church abroad have gathered on Wednesday within the walls of
      the Trinity – Sergius Lavra for the "World Russian national
      convention".

      For the first time since the ten years during which this action has
      been going on, representatives of the Russian church abroad and an of
      the old believers community are taking part. Orthodoxy counts about
      300 million Christians, and, while opening the convention, Patriarch
      Alexis II called for their union.

      "The integration processes in Europe is gaining strength, the Muslim
      states want to consolidate their efforts on the international scene.
      Under such conditions, may the countries with centuries-old orthodox
      culture remain separated? " asked Alexis II.

      Faher P. Holodny represented the ROCOR at this meeting. His
      interview, published on the site below conveys a rather strange
      message from the ROCOR.

      http://www.radiomayak.ru/society/04/02/04/27709.html

      The picture of "Viesti" shows Alexis II addressing the meeting.
      Behind him, an acquaintance of mine, Serghey Lykoshin, is sitting.

      http://www.whoiswho.ru/russian/Password/journals/31997/lykoshinr.htm

      He is a member of the Russian Union of Writers. I also know
      personally the secretary of the same association, L. B., with whom I
      talked on the telephone today. She too was invited to participate in
      the meeting and prepared a presentation on the necessity of Orthodox
      education in schools.

      At the last moment, her participation was cancelled with no reason
      given. She then asked the president of the Russian Union of Writers
      why she could not attend. The official reason was that she had been
      once close to "Natsionalniy Patriotichesky Soyuz", which has a very
      bad press now. The real but unofficial reason however was that she
      had never been a member of the communist party.

      Father Holodny was apparently in good company (Birds of a feather
      flock together).

      http://www.radiomayak.ru/society/04/02/04/27709.html

      In God,

      Vladimir Kozyreff


      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
      <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
      > Irina Pahlen wrote:
      >
      > > Dear Father John, Bless!
      > >
      > > Try this link, and you will see that it is confirmed.
      > >
      > > http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725
      >
      > JRS: After several minutes, nothing more than the logo at the top
      of
      > the page ("VESTI") had appeared on my computer screen: no articles
      of
      > any kind.
      >
      > However, thus far it does appear that some representatives of ROCOR
      are
      > in Moscow.
      >
      > There is nothing wrong with that, as I see it!
      >
      > In Christ
      > Fr. John R. Shaw
    • Fr. John R. Shaw
      ... JRS: You do not specify what is strange in his message. I m afraid I don t see anything could honestly I disagree with. The main technical problems are
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 5, 2004
        Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
        >
        > Faher P. Holodny represented the ROCOR at this meeting. His
        > interview, published on the site below conveys a rather strange
        > message from the ROCOR.
        >
        > http://www.radiomayak.ru/society/04/02/04/27709.html

        JRS: You do not specify what is "strange" in his message. I'm afraid I
        don't see anything could honestly I disagree with.

        The main "technical" problems are indeed that each jurisdiction has
        taken in priests suspended by the other -- and that, in some places,
        there are "parallel parishes", with a hostile mutual relationship.

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw
      • michael nikitin
        One day we faithful may wake up and find ourselves in the arms of the MP. If there is nothing wrong with attending, why are the faithful kept in the dark?
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 5, 2004
          One day we faithful may wake up and
          find ourselves in the arms of the MP.

          If there is nothing wrong with attending, why
          are the faithful kept in the dark?

          Michael N


          "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote: Irina Pahlen wrote:

          > Dear Father John, Bless!
          >
          > Try this link, and you will see that it is confirmed.
          >
          > http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725

          JRS: After several minutes, nothing more than the logo at the top of
          the page ("VESTI") had appeared on my computer screen: no articles of
          any kind.

          However, thus far it does appear that some representatives of ROCOR are
          in Moscow.

          There is nothing wrong with that, as I see it!

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw






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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Elena Baranov
          For many, the strangeness factor in the ROCOR -- MP encounters is the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is Archpriest Peter Holodny,
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 10, 2004
            For many, the "strangeness" factor in the ROCOR -- MP encounters is the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is Archpriest Peter Holodny, the treasurer of ROCOR, i.e. someone who holds the purse strings and who has detailed and complete knowledge of ROCOR's assets, finances and property documents.

            The atmosphere of secrecy and denials on the part of ROCOR hierarchy adds further to the "strangeness" factor and creates a major credibility gap.

            During November 2003 visit of ROCOR bishops to Moscow, according to reports from "Nezavisimaya Gazeta" among others, the agenda for day two of the meetings focused on transfer of ROCOR properties to "Mother Church". Fr. Holodny, in his follow up interviews in Moscow, indirectly admitted that the transfer of ROCOR property is part of the dialogue.

            If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union between ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their emphasis is on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow. Hardly any value is placed on spiritual heritage or canonical issues. From the spiritual aspect, ROCOR is consistently depicted as a group of schismatics or worse -- Deacon Kuraev's recent article on ROCOR is a good example in this respect. It is unfortunate that most of these publications are not available in English translations.

            EAB
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Fr. John R. Shaw
            To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com ; orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 12:14 PM
            Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: ROCA-ROCOR members in Moscow (Official)



            Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
            >
            > Faher P. Holodny represented the ROCOR at this meeting. His
            > interview, published on the site below conveys a rather strange
            > message from the ROCOR.
            >
            > http://www.radiomayak.ru/society/04/02/04/27709.html

            JRS: You do not specify what is "strange" in his message. I'm afraid I
            don't see anything could honestly I disagree with.

            The main "technical" problems are indeed that each jurisdiction has
            taken in priests suspended by the other -- and that, in some places,
            there are "parallel parishes", with a hostile mutual relationship.

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw



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          • Fr. John R. Shaw
            ... the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is Archpriest Peter Holodny, the treasurer of ROCOR, JRS: Why do you say that he is in the
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 11, 2004
              Regarding:

              > For many, the "strangeness" factor in the ROCOR -- MP encounters is
              the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is
              Archpriest Peter Holodny, the treasurer of ROCOR,

              JRS: Why do you say that he is "in the center"? Except that his name
              recently has appeared in the news.

              i.e. someone who holds the purse strings and who has detailed and
              complete knowledge of ROCOR's assets, finances and property documents.

              JRS: Assets and finances that are *not* impressive, sad to say!

              > The atmosphere of secrecy and denials on the part of ROCOR hierarchy
              adds further to the "strangeness" factor and creates a major
              credibility gap.

              JRS: Also I see no signs of "secrecy", or of a credibility gap.

              For me, the "credibility gap" lies in ROCiE, with its systematic
              attempts to deceive the faithful, its deliberate misinformation,
              attempts to "spin" every news item into something that would somehow
              work in their favor.

              > During November 2003 visit of ROCOR bishops to Moscow, according to
              reports from "Nezavisimaya Gazeta" among others, the agenda for day two
              of the meetings focused on transfer of ROCOR properties to "Mother
              Church". Fr. Holodny, in his follow up interviews in Moscow,
              indirectly admitted that the transfer of ROCOR property is part of the
              dialogue.

              JRS: This is absolute rubbish. There has been no question of "transfer
              of properties", and this has been stated several times.

              Nor could there very well be any such transfers, since the MP does not
              own its own property!

              > If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union between
              ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their emphasis is
              on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow.

              JRS: Absolute rubbish. There may be *speculation* about such things, by
              various reporters, but there has been no such discussion of assets, nor
              will there be.

              > Hardly any value is placed on spiritual heritage or canonical
              issues. From the spiritual aspect, ROCOR is consistently depicted as a
              group of schismatics or worse -- Deacon Kuraev's recent article on
              ROCOR is a good example in this respect. It is unfortunate that most
              of these publications are not available in English translations.

              JRS: Why is that "unfortunate"? The MP has not made any such statements
              since the beginning of actual contacts; and we have people, in
              particular some deacons, in ROCOR who have made irresponsible personal
              statements.

              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw
            • Fr. John R. Shaw
              ... is ... JRS: Just to show what nonsense such claims are, the Church Abroad has been very hard-pressed for funds now for a long time. The main reason for
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 11, 2004
                Elena Baranova wrote:

                > > If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union between
                > ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their emphasis
                is
                > on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow.

                JRS: Just to show what nonsense such claims are, the Church Abroad has
                been very hard-pressed for funds now for a long time.

                The main reason for this, is that people donate so little to the
                Church.

                The recent influx of new people from Russia has not helped the problem
                at all, since many of them suppose that in America, the Church is
                supported by the goverment, or that "the Church is wealthy", as your
                own comments seem to suggest.

                My impression, in fact, is that the Patriarchal parishes outside of
                Russia are much more affluent today, than most of the parishes of ROCOR!

                The only purpose in making such absurd claims, would be to cause as
                much doubt and murmuring among our people as possible: and this, in
                turn, shows total lack of regard for the welfare of the Church and
                faithful in general; a desire merely to enhance the fortunes of ROCiE,
                and to hurt ROCOR, no matter by what means.

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw
              • vkozyreff
                Dear Father John, bless. You say that the MP is not interested by the ROCOR properties. What is then the meaning of the well known ROCOR declaration below?
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 12, 2004
                  Dear Father John, bless.

                  You say that the MP is not interested by the ROCOR properties. What
                  is then the meaning of the well known ROCOR declaration below?

                  "Statement of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church
                  Outside of Russia to the Russian Orthodox People
                  The leadership of the Moscow Patriarchate has now officially declared
                  that it views the property of the Russian Church Outside of Russia as
                  belonging to itself, for only it, and no other, is the "sole legal
                  heir to the property of the pre-Revolutionary Church," which,
                  consequently, "is being held by the schismatics abroad illegally,"
                  and that such a decision "is accepted by the Orthodox believing
                  people of Russia with joy and profound gratitude.""

                  http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/english/pages/poslania/statementof
                  synod.html

                  What is the reason why Father Peter Kholodny, explicitly named as
                  the "ROCOR's treasurer" went to Moscow at such an early stage of the
                  union's process? One would have expected that the Synod's treasurer
                  would have had nothing to discuss with the MP, unless financial
                  matters were on the agenda.

                  DELEGATION OF THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA VISITS
                  MOSCOW

                  A delegation of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
                  consisting of Archbishop Mark of Berlin and Germany, Archbishop
                  Hilarion of Sydney, Australia and New Zealand, Bishop Kyrill of San
                  Francisco and Western America, Archpriest Nikolai Artemoff, secretary
                  of the German diocese and Archpriest Peter Holodny, treasurer of the
                  Synod of Bishops, arrived in Moscow on 17 November 2003 at the
                  invitation of the Russian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate.

                  Press-release, November 19. 2003
                  http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/ne311192.htm

                  We have no animosity towards Father Peter, on the contrary. Some of
                  the French ROCOR (V) faithful recall that Father Peter Kholodny, who
                  was spending his holidays in Cannes in June 2001, kindly attended at
                  that time with the ROCOR (V) faithful, the liturgy celebrated by Vl
                  Varnava, just after the latter had left the Synod (L).

                  Please do not see here any "desire merely to enhance the fortunes of
                  ROCiE, and to hurt ROCOR, no matter by what means", but just the wish
                  to understand.

                  In God,

                  Vladimir Kozyreff



                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                  <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                  > Elena Baranova wrote:
                  >
                  > > > If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union
                  between
                  > > ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their
                  emphasis
                  > is
                  > > on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow.
                  >
                  > JRS: Just to show what nonsense such claims are, the Church Abroad
                  has
                  > been very hard-pressed for funds now for a long time.
                  >
                  > The main reason for this, is that people donate so little to the
                  > Church.
                  >
                  > The recent influx of new people from Russia has not helped the
                  problem
                  > at all, since many of them suppose that in America, the Church is
                  > supported by the goverment, or that "the Church is wealthy", as
                  your
                  > own comments seem to suggest.
                  >
                  > My impression, in fact, is that the Patriarchal parishes outside of
                  > Russia are much more affluent today, than most of the parishes of
                  ROCOR!
                  >
                  > The only purpose in making such absurd claims, would be to cause as
                  > much doubt and murmuring among our people as possible: and this, in
                  > turn, shows total lack of regard for the welfare of the Church and
                  > faithful in general;
                  >
                  > In Christ
                  > Fr. John R. Shaw
                • michael nikitin
                  ROCOR s property in Jerusalem was given to the MP by those who wanted union with MP. The deed to the property mysteriously appeared in the hands of MP just
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 12, 2004
                    ROCOR's property in Jerusalem was given to the MP by those
                    who wanted union with MP. The deed to the property mysteriously appeared
                    in the hands of MP just before the visit and procurement of the property by
                    force by our Mother Church. This was already written in the books as a prelude to
                    union.

                    Union of Mysteries now.........transfer of property later.

                    Union would have materialized long ago if the faithful
                    did not leave as did HOCNA, ROAC and ROCOR(V).

                    Now the faithful are slowly being aclimatized to the MP as to weather.

                    The assets are pretty impressive when one considers the Church property
                    in many countries belonging to ROCOR.

                    There is more to this than meets the eye.

                    Michael N


                    "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:Regarding:

                    > For many, the "strangeness" factor in the ROCOR -- MP encounters is
                    the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is
                    Archpriest Peter Holodny, the treasurer of ROCOR,

                    JRS: Why do you say that he is "in the center"? Except that his name
                    recently has appeared in the news.

                    i.e. someone who holds the purse strings and who has detailed and
                    complete knowledge of ROCOR's assets, finances and property documents.

                    JRS: Assets and finances that are *not* impressive, sad to say!

                    > The atmosphere of secrecy and denials on the part of ROCOR hierarchy
                    adds further to the "strangeness" factor and creates a major
                    credibility gap.

                    JRS: Also I see no signs of "secrecy", or of a credibility gap.

                    For me, the "credibility gap" lies in ROCiE, with its systematic
                    attempts to deceive the faithful, its deliberate misinformation,
                    attempts to "spin" every news item into something that would somehow
                    work in their favor.

                    > During November 2003 visit of ROCOR bishops to Moscow, according to
                    reports from "Nezavisimaya Gazeta" among others, the agenda for day two
                    of the meetings focused on transfer of ROCOR properties to "Mother
                    Church". Fr. Holodny, in his follow up interviews in Moscow,
                    indirectly admitted that the transfer of ROCOR property is part of the
                    dialogue.

                    JRS: This is absolute rubbish. There has been no question of "transfer
                    of properties", and this has been stated several times.

                    Nor could there very well be any such transfers, since the MP does not
                    own its own property!

                    > If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union between
                    ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their emphasis is
                    on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow.

                    JRS: Absolute rubbish. There may be *speculation* about such things, by
                    various reporters, but there has been no such discussion of assets, nor
                    will there be.

                    > Hardly any value is placed on spiritual heritage or canonical
                    issues. From the spiritual aspect, ROCOR is consistently depicted as a
                    group of schismatics or worse -- Deacon Kuraev's recent article on
                    ROCOR is a good example in this respect. It is unfortunate that most
                    of these publications are not available in English translations.

                    JRS: Why is that "unfortunate"? The MP has not made any such statements
                    since the beginning of actual contacts; and we have people, in
                    particular some deacons, in ROCOR who have made irresponsible personal
                    statements.

                    In Christ
                    Fr. John R. Shaw





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                  • boulia_1
                    Dear Vladimir, I don t want to get too involved with this discussion, as my own knowledge of facts is limited, and, on the eve of the Great fast, i I am wont
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 12, 2004
                      Dear Vladimir,

                      I don't want to get too involved with this discussion, as my own
                      knowledge of 'facts' is limited, and, on the eve of the Great fast, i
                      I am wont to get into argument. But one thing I, and most Synod
                      (Cathedral) people who know the Holodny family, am aware of is that
                      Fr. Peter is REGULARLY in Moscow. At one point, his entire family
                      (wife and three lovely children) took residence there, and, though
                      they decided not to stay for the childrens' sake, he may well still
                      own a home there.

                      However, his Moscow presence was NOT at ROCOR's behest, but a
                      requirement of business connected with his financial services
                      industry job. (Unfortunately, despite ideas that ROCOR is "rich,"
                      many and perhaps most of our Priests do have to take earthly jobs to
                      support their families.)

                      Hence, I suspect that there is a simple answer to the following
                      question which you posed:

                      > What is the reason why Father Peter Kholodny, explicitly named as
                      > the "ROCOR's treasurer" went to Moscow at such an early stage of
                      the
                      > union's process? One would have expected that the Synod's treasurer
                      > would have had nothing to discuss with the MP, unless financial
                      > matters were on the agenda.
                      >


                      I am CONFIDENT that Fr. Peter happened to be in Moscow at the time,
                      for OTHER reasons, and joined in, being that "his own" fellow ROCOR
                      clergy were in town (despite slanderous comments on this list to the
                      contrary, it is a RARITY for him to be among his own in Moscow, and I
                      am sure he was happy to see everyone, especially Vl. Hilarion, who
                      was at one time his ruling Bishop in NY...).

                      By the way, the press release you quote explicitly states that Father
                      Peter is treasurer of the Synod of Bishops, NOT of "ROCOR". There IS
                      a difference! And the press releadr was issued by the MP, and I think
                      they got it wrong. As far as I know (and I checked a year-old edition
                      of the ROCOR "spisok"), O. Petr is the treasurer of the NY DIOCESE
                      (and I believe of the Synod CATHEDRAL), but not of "the" Synod
                      itself.

                      I fear you are too ready to find fault and are anxiously over-
                      suspicious, in this case.

                      Wishing you peace and a blessed Fast,
                      Elizabeth
                    • Fr. John R. Shaw
                      ... JRS: The above quote does not reflect the current situation. As I have written before -- the idea that time does not pass is simply not borne out by
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 12, 2004
                        Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:

                        > "Statement of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church
                        > Outside of Russia to the Russian Orthodox People
                        > The leadership of the Moscow Patriarchate has now officially declared
                        > that it views the property of the Russian Church Outside of Russia as
                        > belonging to itself...

                        JRS: The above quote does not reflect the current situation.

                        As I have written before -- the idea that "time does not pass" is
                        simply not borne out by reality.

                        In Christ
                        Fr. John R. Shaw
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