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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: ROCA-ROCOR members in Moscow (Official)

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  • Fr. John R. Shaw
    ... JRS: After several minutes, nothing more than the logo at the top of the page ( VESTI ) had appeared on my computer screen: no articles of any kind.
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 4, 2004
      Irina Pahlen wrote:

      > Dear Father John, Bless!
      >
      > Try this link, and you will see that it is confirmed.
      >
      > http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725

      JRS: After several minutes, nothing more than the logo at the top of
      the page ("VESTI") had appeared on my computer screen: no articles of
      any kind.

      However, thus far it does appear that some representatives of ROCOR are
      in Moscow.

      There is nothing wrong with that, as I see it!

      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw
    • vkozyreff
      Dear Father John, bless. This is the text published under http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725 My translation is below. 03.02.2004 17:14, Íîâîñòü.
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 5, 2004
        Dear Father John, bless.

        This is the text published under

        http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725

        My translation is below.

        03.02.2004 17:14, Íîâîñòü. Àëåêñèé II îòêðûë Âñåìèðíûé ðóññêèé
        íàðîäíûé ñîáîð.

        Èåðàðõè ïÿòíàäöàòè Ïîìåñòíûõ ïðàâîñëàâíûõ öåðêâåé, à òàêæå Ðóññêîé
        öåðêâè çà ðóáåæîì ñîáðàëèñü â ñðåäó â ñòåíàõ Òðîèöå-Ñåðèåâîé ëàâðû íà
        Âñåìèðíûé ðóññêèé íàðîäíûé ñîáîð.

        Âïåðâûå çà ïîñëåäíèå äåñÿòü ëåò, â òå÷åíèå êîòîðûõ ïðîâîäèòñÿ ýòî
        ìåðîïðèÿòèå, â íåì ïðèíèìàþò ó÷àñòèå ïðåäñòàâèòåëè Ðóññêîé öåðêâè çà
        ðóáåæîì è ñòàðîîáðÿä÷åñêîé îáùèíû. Ïðàâîñëàâèå èñïîâåäóþò îêîëî 300
        ìèëëèîíîâ õðèñòèàí, è, îòêðûâàÿ Ñîáîð, Ïàòðèàðõ Àëåêñèé II ïðèçâàë èõ
        ê åäèíåíèþ.

        "Íàáèðàþò ñèëó èíòåãðàöèîííûå ïðîöåññû â Åâðîïå, ìóñóëüìàíñêèå
        ãîñóäàðñòâà ñòðåìÿòñÿ êîíñîëèäèðîâàòü ñâîè óñèëèÿ íà ìåæäóíàðîäíîé
        àðåíå. Ìîãóò ëè â òàêèõ óñëîâèÿõ îñòàâàòüñÿ ðàçîáùåííûìè ñòðàíû ñ
        ìíîãîâåêîâîé ïðàâîñëàâíîé êóëüòóðîé?" - çàÿâèë Àëåêñèé II.

        The Hierarchs of fifteen local orthodox churches, and also the
        Russian church abroad have gathered on Wednesday within the walls of
        the Trinity – Sergius Lavra for the "World Russian national
        convention".

        For the first time since the ten years during which this action has
        been going on, representatives of the Russian church abroad and an of
        the old believers community are taking part. Orthodoxy counts about
        300 million Christians, and, while opening the convention, Patriarch
        Alexis II called for their union.

        "The integration processes in Europe is gaining strength, the Muslim
        states want to consolidate their efforts on the international scene.
        Under such conditions, may the countries with centuries-old orthodox
        culture remain separated? " asked Alexis II.

        Faher P. Holodny represented the ROCOR at this meeting. His
        interview, published on the site below conveys a rather strange
        message from the ROCOR.

        http://www.radiomayak.ru/society/04/02/04/27709.html

        The picture of "Viesti" shows Alexis II addressing the meeting.
        Behind him, an acquaintance of mine, Serghey Lykoshin, is sitting.

        http://www.whoiswho.ru/russian/Password/journals/31997/lykoshinr.htm

        He is a member of the Russian Union of Writers. I also know
        personally the secretary of the same association, L. B., with whom I
        talked on the telephone today. She too was invited to participate in
        the meeting and prepared a presentation on the necessity of Orthodox
        education in schools.

        At the last moment, her participation was cancelled with no reason
        given. She then asked the president of the Russian Union of Writers
        why she could not attend. The official reason was that she had been
        once close to "Natsionalniy Patriotichesky Soyuz", which has a very
        bad press now. The real but unofficial reason however was that she
        had never been a member of the communist party.

        Father Holodny was apparently in good company (Birds of a feather
        flock together).

        http://www.radiomayak.ru/society/04/02/04/27709.html

        In God,

        Vladimir Kozyreff


        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
        <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
        > Irina Pahlen wrote:
        >
        > > Dear Father John, Bless!
        > >
        > > Try this link, and you will see that it is confirmed.
        > >
        > > http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725
        >
        > JRS: After several minutes, nothing more than the logo at the top
        of
        > the page ("VESTI") had appeared on my computer screen: no articles
        of
        > any kind.
        >
        > However, thus far it does appear that some representatives of ROCOR
        are
        > in Moscow.
        >
        > There is nothing wrong with that, as I see it!
        >
        > In Christ
        > Fr. John R. Shaw
      • Fr. John R. Shaw
        ... JRS: You do not specify what is strange in his message. I m afraid I don t see anything could honestly I disagree with. The main technical problems are
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 5, 2004
          Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
          >
          > Faher P. Holodny represented the ROCOR at this meeting. His
          > interview, published on the site below conveys a rather strange
          > message from the ROCOR.
          >
          > http://www.radiomayak.ru/society/04/02/04/27709.html

          JRS: You do not specify what is "strange" in his message. I'm afraid I
          don't see anything could honestly I disagree with.

          The main "technical" problems are indeed that each jurisdiction has
          taken in priests suspended by the other -- and that, in some places,
          there are "parallel parishes", with a hostile mutual relationship.

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw
        • michael nikitin
          One day we faithful may wake up and find ourselves in the arms of the MP. If there is nothing wrong with attending, why are the faithful kept in the dark?
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 5, 2004
            One day we faithful may wake up and
            find ourselves in the arms of the MP.

            If there is nothing wrong with attending, why
            are the faithful kept in the dark?

            Michael N


            "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote: Irina Pahlen wrote:

            > Dear Father John, Bless!
            >
            > Try this link, and you will see that it is confirmed.
            >
            > http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725

            JRS: After several minutes, nothing more than the logo at the top of
            the page ("VESTI") had appeared on my computer screen: no articles of
            any kind.

            However, thus far it does appear that some representatives of ROCOR are
            in Moscow.

            There is nothing wrong with that, as I see it!

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw






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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Elena Baranov
            For many, the strangeness factor in the ROCOR -- MP encounters is the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is Archpriest Peter Holodny,
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 10, 2004
              For many, the "strangeness" factor in the ROCOR -- MP encounters is the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is Archpriest Peter Holodny, the treasurer of ROCOR, i.e. someone who holds the purse strings and who has detailed and complete knowledge of ROCOR's assets, finances and property documents.

              The atmosphere of secrecy and denials on the part of ROCOR hierarchy adds further to the "strangeness" factor and creates a major credibility gap.

              During November 2003 visit of ROCOR bishops to Moscow, according to reports from "Nezavisimaya Gazeta" among others, the agenda for day two of the meetings focused on transfer of ROCOR properties to "Mother Church". Fr. Holodny, in his follow up interviews in Moscow, indirectly admitted that the transfer of ROCOR property is part of the dialogue.

              If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union between ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their emphasis is on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow. Hardly any value is placed on spiritual heritage or canonical issues. From the spiritual aspect, ROCOR is consistently depicted as a group of schismatics or worse -- Deacon Kuraev's recent article on ROCOR is a good example in this respect. It is unfortunate that most of these publications are not available in English translations.

              EAB
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Fr. John R. Shaw
              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com ; orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 12:14 PM
              Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: ROCA-ROCOR members in Moscow (Official)



              Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
              >
              > Faher P. Holodny represented the ROCOR at this meeting. His
              > interview, published on the site below conveys a rather strange
              > message from the ROCOR.
              >
              > http://www.radiomayak.ru/society/04/02/04/27709.html

              JRS: You do not specify what is "strange" in his message. I'm afraid I
              don't see anything could honestly I disagree with.

              The main "technical" problems are indeed that each jurisdiction has
              taken in priests suspended by the other -- and that, in some places,
              there are "parallel parishes", with a hostile mutual relationship.

              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw



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            • Fr. John R. Shaw
              ... the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is Archpriest Peter Holodny, the treasurer of ROCOR, JRS: Why do you say that he is in the
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 11, 2004
                Regarding:

                > For many, the "strangeness" factor in the ROCOR -- MP encounters is
                the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is
                Archpriest Peter Holodny, the treasurer of ROCOR,

                JRS: Why do you say that he is "in the center"? Except that his name
                recently has appeared in the news.

                i.e. someone who holds the purse strings and who has detailed and
                complete knowledge of ROCOR's assets, finances and property documents.

                JRS: Assets and finances that are *not* impressive, sad to say!

                > The atmosphere of secrecy and denials on the part of ROCOR hierarchy
                adds further to the "strangeness" factor and creates a major
                credibility gap.

                JRS: Also I see no signs of "secrecy", or of a credibility gap.

                For me, the "credibility gap" lies in ROCiE, with its systematic
                attempts to deceive the faithful, its deliberate misinformation,
                attempts to "spin" every news item into something that would somehow
                work in their favor.

                > During November 2003 visit of ROCOR bishops to Moscow, according to
                reports from "Nezavisimaya Gazeta" among others, the agenda for day two
                of the meetings focused on transfer of ROCOR properties to "Mother
                Church". Fr. Holodny, in his follow up interviews in Moscow,
                indirectly admitted that the transfer of ROCOR property is part of the
                dialogue.

                JRS: This is absolute rubbish. There has been no question of "transfer
                of properties", and this has been stated several times.

                Nor could there very well be any such transfers, since the MP does not
                own its own property!

                > If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union between
                ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their emphasis is
                on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow.

                JRS: Absolute rubbish. There may be *speculation* about such things, by
                various reporters, but there has been no such discussion of assets, nor
                will there be.

                > Hardly any value is placed on spiritual heritage or canonical
                issues. From the spiritual aspect, ROCOR is consistently depicted as a
                group of schismatics or worse -- Deacon Kuraev's recent article on
                ROCOR is a good example in this respect. It is unfortunate that most
                of these publications are not available in English translations.

                JRS: Why is that "unfortunate"? The MP has not made any such statements
                since the beginning of actual contacts; and we have people, in
                particular some deacons, in ROCOR who have made irresponsible personal
                statements.

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw
              • Fr. John R. Shaw
                ... is ... JRS: Just to show what nonsense such claims are, the Church Abroad has been very hard-pressed for funds now for a long time. The main reason for
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 11, 2004
                  Elena Baranova wrote:

                  > > If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union between
                  > ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their emphasis
                  is
                  > on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow.

                  JRS: Just to show what nonsense such claims are, the Church Abroad has
                  been very hard-pressed for funds now for a long time.

                  The main reason for this, is that people donate so little to the
                  Church.

                  The recent influx of new people from Russia has not helped the problem
                  at all, since many of them suppose that in America, the Church is
                  supported by the goverment, or that "the Church is wealthy", as your
                  own comments seem to suggest.

                  My impression, in fact, is that the Patriarchal parishes outside of
                  Russia are much more affluent today, than most of the parishes of ROCOR!

                  The only purpose in making such absurd claims, would be to cause as
                  much doubt and murmuring among our people as possible: and this, in
                  turn, shows total lack of regard for the welfare of the Church and
                  faithful in general; a desire merely to enhance the fortunes of ROCiE,
                  and to hurt ROCOR, no matter by what means.

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw
                • vkozyreff
                  Dear Father John, bless. You say that the MP is not interested by the ROCOR properties. What is then the meaning of the well known ROCOR declaration below?
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 12, 2004
                    Dear Father John, bless.

                    You say that the MP is not interested by the ROCOR properties. What
                    is then the meaning of the well known ROCOR declaration below?

                    "Statement of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church
                    Outside of Russia to the Russian Orthodox People
                    The leadership of the Moscow Patriarchate has now officially declared
                    that it views the property of the Russian Church Outside of Russia as
                    belonging to itself, for only it, and no other, is the "sole legal
                    heir to the property of the pre-Revolutionary Church," which,
                    consequently, "is being held by the schismatics abroad illegally,"
                    and that such a decision "is accepted by the Orthodox believing
                    people of Russia with joy and profound gratitude.""

                    http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/english/pages/poslania/statementof
                    synod.html

                    What is the reason why Father Peter Kholodny, explicitly named as
                    the "ROCOR's treasurer" went to Moscow at such an early stage of the
                    union's process? One would have expected that the Synod's treasurer
                    would have had nothing to discuss with the MP, unless financial
                    matters were on the agenda.

                    DELEGATION OF THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA VISITS
                    MOSCOW

                    A delegation of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
                    consisting of Archbishop Mark of Berlin and Germany, Archbishop
                    Hilarion of Sydney, Australia and New Zealand, Bishop Kyrill of San
                    Francisco and Western America, Archpriest Nikolai Artemoff, secretary
                    of the German diocese and Archpriest Peter Holodny, treasurer of the
                    Synod of Bishops, arrived in Moscow on 17 November 2003 at the
                    invitation of the Russian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate.

                    Press-release, November 19. 2003
                    http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/ne311192.htm

                    We have no animosity towards Father Peter, on the contrary. Some of
                    the French ROCOR (V) faithful recall that Father Peter Kholodny, who
                    was spending his holidays in Cannes in June 2001, kindly attended at
                    that time with the ROCOR (V) faithful, the liturgy celebrated by Vl
                    Varnava, just after the latter had left the Synod (L).

                    Please do not see here any "desire merely to enhance the fortunes of
                    ROCiE, and to hurt ROCOR, no matter by what means", but just the wish
                    to understand.

                    In God,

                    Vladimir Kozyreff



                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                    <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                    > Elena Baranova wrote:
                    >
                    > > > If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union
                    between
                    > > ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their
                    emphasis
                    > is
                    > > on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow.
                    >
                    > JRS: Just to show what nonsense such claims are, the Church Abroad
                    has
                    > been very hard-pressed for funds now for a long time.
                    >
                    > The main reason for this, is that people donate so little to the
                    > Church.
                    >
                    > The recent influx of new people from Russia has not helped the
                    problem
                    > at all, since many of them suppose that in America, the Church is
                    > supported by the goverment, or that "the Church is wealthy", as
                    your
                    > own comments seem to suggest.
                    >
                    > My impression, in fact, is that the Patriarchal parishes outside of
                    > Russia are much more affluent today, than most of the parishes of
                    ROCOR!
                    >
                    > The only purpose in making such absurd claims, would be to cause as
                    > much doubt and murmuring among our people as possible: and this, in
                    > turn, shows total lack of regard for the welfare of the Church and
                    > faithful in general;
                    >
                    > In Christ
                    > Fr. John R. Shaw
                  • michael nikitin
                    ROCOR s property in Jerusalem was given to the MP by those who wanted union with MP. The deed to the property mysteriously appeared in the hands of MP just
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 12, 2004
                      ROCOR's property in Jerusalem was given to the MP by those
                      who wanted union with MP. The deed to the property mysteriously appeared
                      in the hands of MP just before the visit and procurement of the property by
                      force by our Mother Church. This was already written in the books as a prelude to
                      union.

                      Union of Mysteries now.........transfer of property later.

                      Union would have materialized long ago if the faithful
                      did not leave as did HOCNA, ROAC and ROCOR(V).

                      Now the faithful are slowly being aclimatized to the MP as to weather.

                      The assets are pretty impressive when one considers the Church property
                      in many countries belonging to ROCOR.

                      There is more to this than meets the eye.

                      Michael N


                      "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:Regarding:

                      > For many, the "strangeness" factor in the ROCOR -- MP encounters is
                      the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is
                      Archpriest Peter Holodny, the treasurer of ROCOR,

                      JRS: Why do you say that he is "in the center"? Except that his name
                      recently has appeared in the news.

                      i.e. someone who holds the purse strings and who has detailed and
                      complete knowledge of ROCOR's assets, finances and property documents.

                      JRS: Assets and finances that are *not* impressive, sad to say!

                      > The atmosphere of secrecy and denials on the part of ROCOR hierarchy
                      adds further to the "strangeness" factor and creates a major
                      credibility gap.

                      JRS: Also I see no signs of "secrecy", or of a credibility gap.

                      For me, the "credibility gap" lies in ROCiE, with its systematic
                      attempts to deceive the faithful, its deliberate misinformation,
                      attempts to "spin" every news item into something that would somehow
                      work in their favor.

                      > During November 2003 visit of ROCOR bishops to Moscow, according to
                      reports from "Nezavisimaya Gazeta" among others, the agenda for day two
                      of the meetings focused on transfer of ROCOR properties to "Mother
                      Church". Fr. Holodny, in his follow up interviews in Moscow,
                      indirectly admitted that the transfer of ROCOR property is part of the
                      dialogue.

                      JRS: This is absolute rubbish. There has been no question of "transfer
                      of properties", and this has been stated several times.

                      Nor could there very well be any such transfers, since the MP does not
                      own its own property!

                      > If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union between
                      ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their emphasis is
                      on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow.

                      JRS: Absolute rubbish. There may be *speculation* about such things, by
                      various reporters, but there has been no such discussion of assets, nor
                      will there be.

                      > Hardly any value is placed on spiritual heritage or canonical
                      issues. From the spiritual aspect, ROCOR is consistently depicted as a
                      group of schismatics or worse -- Deacon Kuraev's recent article on
                      ROCOR is a good example in this respect. It is unfortunate that most
                      of these publications are not available in English translations.

                      JRS: Why is that "unfortunate"? The MP has not made any such statements
                      since the beginning of actual contacts; and we have people, in
                      particular some deacons, in ROCOR who have made irresponsible personal
                      statements.

                      In Christ
                      Fr. John R. Shaw





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                    • boulia_1
                      Dear Vladimir, I don t want to get too involved with this discussion, as my own knowledge of facts is limited, and, on the eve of the Great fast, i I am wont
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 12, 2004
                        Dear Vladimir,

                        I don't want to get too involved with this discussion, as my own
                        knowledge of 'facts' is limited, and, on the eve of the Great fast, i
                        I am wont to get into argument. But one thing I, and most Synod
                        (Cathedral) people who know the Holodny family, am aware of is that
                        Fr. Peter is REGULARLY in Moscow. At one point, his entire family
                        (wife and three lovely children) took residence there, and, though
                        they decided not to stay for the childrens' sake, he may well still
                        own a home there.

                        However, his Moscow presence was NOT at ROCOR's behest, but a
                        requirement of business connected with his financial services
                        industry job. (Unfortunately, despite ideas that ROCOR is "rich,"
                        many and perhaps most of our Priests do have to take earthly jobs to
                        support their families.)

                        Hence, I suspect that there is a simple answer to the following
                        question which you posed:

                        > What is the reason why Father Peter Kholodny, explicitly named as
                        > the "ROCOR's treasurer" went to Moscow at such an early stage of
                        the
                        > union's process? One would have expected that the Synod's treasurer
                        > would have had nothing to discuss with the MP, unless financial
                        > matters were on the agenda.
                        >


                        I am CONFIDENT that Fr. Peter happened to be in Moscow at the time,
                        for OTHER reasons, and joined in, being that "his own" fellow ROCOR
                        clergy were in town (despite slanderous comments on this list to the
                        contrary, it is a RARITY for him to be among his own in Moscow, and I
                        am sure he was happy to see everyone, especially Vl. Hilarion, who
                        was at one time his ruling Bishop in NY...).

                        By the way, the press release you quote explicitly states that Father
                        Peter is treasurer of the Synod of Bishops, NOT of "ROCOR". There IS
                        a difference! And the press releadr was issued by the MP, and I think
                        they got it wrong. As far as I know (and I checked a year-old edition
                        of the ROCOR "spisok"), O. Petr is the treasurer of the NY DIOCESE
                        (and I believe of the Synod CATHEDRAL), but not of "the" Synod
                        itself.

                        I fear you are too ready to find fault and are anxiously over-
                        suspicious, in this case.

                        Wishing you peace and a blessed Fast,
                        Elizabeth
                      • Fr. John R. Shaw
                        ... JRS: The above quote does not reflect the current situation. As I have written before -- the idea that time does not pass is simply not borne out by
                        Message 11 of 15 , Feb 12, 2004
                          Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:

                          > "Statement of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church
                          > Outside of Russia to the Russian Orthodox People
                          > The leadership of the Moscow Patriarchate has now officially declared
                          > that it views the property of the Russian Church Outside of Russia as
                          > belonging to itself...

                          JRS: The above quote does not reflect the current situation.

                          As I have written before -- the idea that "time does not pass" is
                          simply not borne out by reality.

                          In Christ
                          Fr. John R. Shaw
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