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Re: ROCA-ROCOR members in Moscow (Official)

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  • goossir
    Dear Father John, Bless! Try this link, and you will see that it is confirmed. http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725 Yours, in Christ Irina Pahlen ... out ...
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 4, 2004
      Dear Father John, Bless!

      Try this link, and you will see that it is confirmed.

      http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725

      Yours, in Christ

      Irina Pahlen


      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
      <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
      >
      > "Kato" wrote:
      >
      > > Watching the news today on russian tv, out of the blue, I found
      out
      > > that there's a Russian Orthodox meeting happening at Sergeiev
      Possad
      > > today. Alot of business elite, political leaders as well as the
      > > russian foreign minister all of who are taking part.
      > >
      > > Among them, the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad members too.
      >
      > JRS: I read only two of these articles, but I saw no indication in
      them
      > that ROCOR members were actually present (though why shouldn't they
      be
      > present, for that matter?).
      >
      > All the first two articles said, was that the visit of the ROCOR
      > delegation was discussed (there was one such visit last fall,
      another
      > planned for the first part of this year).
      >
      > In Christ
      > Fr. John R. Shaw
    • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
      Russian Congress calls for closeness btw Russian Church branches 03.02.2004, SERGIYEV POSSAD, Moscow region, February 3 (www.itar-tass.com) - Participants of
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 4, 2004
        Russian Congress calls for closeness btw Russian Church branches
        03.02.2004, SERGIYEV POSSAD, Moscow region, February 3
        (www.itar-tass.com) - Participants of the 8th World Congress of the
        Russian People, underway in the Holy Trinity Monastery near Moscow,
        have called for a rapprochement between the Russian Orthodox Church
        reporting to Moscow Partiarchate and the Russian Orthodox Church
        Abroad (ROCA).
        "It is a pleasure for us to point out the positive tendencies that
        have taken a clear outline in relations between the mainstream Russian
        Church and ROCA," Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Alexis II said in
        a speech at the Congress.
        "There is hope now that the division of our Church, produced by the
        tragic events of the past century will be eliminated," he said.
        Russia must help the nations espousing Eastern Orthodox Christianity
        to keep unity as members of an identical civilization, Alexis II said.
        "Nowadays challenges compel the nations having close cultural and
        spiritual traditions to unite," Alexis II said. "This is happening at
        a time when the integration process is gaining pace and the Moslem
        nations are consolidating, too".
        "The Eastern Orthodox civilization must consider its role in world
        processes," Alexis II said.
        Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Alexis II has had a conversation
        with officials representing Local Orthodox Churches from foreign
        countries.
        "Fairly recently, many Eastern Orthodox Churches were oppressed by
        totalitarian regimes," Alexis II said. "But now we are evidencing a
        return of our nations to the values of Orthodoxy".
        "Revival goes beyond the restoration of church buildings; it is now
        embracing education and social services," he indicated.
        Representatives of Orthodox Churches from many countries have taken
        part in the sessions of the Congress, as well as made reports at it.
        Officials from the Patriarchates of Constantinople, Alexandria,
        Antioch, and Jerusalem were among them.
        Metropolitan Cyril, the chairman of external relations department at
        Moscow Patriarchate, dismissed the opinion that ROCA could be ignored
        because of having a mere 300 parishes across the world.
        "Statistic arguments are totally irrelevant when it comes down to the
        destiny of the people, whose ancestors made up the cream of Russian
        society," His Beatitude Cyril said, adding that reunification of the
        two branches of a once united Russian Church might have a good curing
        effect on this country.
        He indicated that the world has around 300 million followers of
        Eastern Orthodoxy at the moment, and the Russians make up about a half
        of them.
        Metropolitan Cyril recalled at the same time that there are Arabs,
        Americans, Europeans, and representatives of African nations among the
        worldwide Eastern Orthodox congregation.
        "Not only do the Orthodox countries play the role of a bridge between
        the Orient and the Occident, they also make up an independent
        civilization, based on the idea of mutual servicing rather than
        domination of some peoples over others," he said.
        Russia's Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov, who also addressed the
        Congress, said Russia abides by Christian principles in its foreign
        policy, as it demands respectful relations between different countries.
        He said the Russian diplomats had been pleased to notice the prospects
        of overcoming the divide between the two branches of the Church.
        Hierarchs of all the 15 autonomous Eastern Orthodox Churches, the ROCA
        followers, and representatives of Russian communities from across the
        world are attending the Congress.
        The organizers have also invited Russian government officials,
        activists of creative unions, scientists and public figures to attend.
        February 4, the sessions will continue at St Daniel's Monastery in
        Moscow.
        Russia's President Vladimir Putin has sent greetings to the
        participants in and guests of the 8th World Russian Congress.
        "For over a decade, your forum has been gathering representatives of
        the Russian clergy, scientists, people of artistic professions,
        intellectuals, and public activists for a discussion of pressing
        issues of the country's development," Putin said in a telegram of
        greetings.
        "The topic of the forum, Russia and the Eastern Orthodox World
        converges many vital aspects of nowadays life," he said.
        "Let me hope that your activity will help tap the ways of solution of
        the crucial humanitarian problems, as well as consolidate the
        spiritual and moral principles of society," Putin indicated.
      • Fr. John R. Shaw
        ... JRS: After several minutes, nothing more than the logo at the top of the page ( VESTI ) had appeared on my computer screen: no articles of any kind.
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 4, 2004
          Irina Pahlen wrote:

          > Dear Father John, Bless!
          >
          > Try this link, and you will see that it is confirmed.
          >
          > http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725

          JRS: After several minutes, nothing more than the logo at the top of
          the page ("VESTI") had appeared on my computer screen: no articles of
          any kind.

          However, thus far it does appear that some representatives of ROCOR are
          in Moscow.

          There is nothing wrong with that, as I see it!

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw
        • vkozyreff
          Dear Father John, bless. This is the text published under http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725 My translation is below. 03.02.2004 17:14, Íîâîñòü.
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 5, 2004
            Dear Father John, bless.

            This is the text published under

            http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725

            My translation is below.

            03.02.2004 17:14, Íîâîñòü. Àëåêñèé II îòêðûë Âñåìèðíûé ðóññêèé
            íàðîäíûé ñîáîð.

            Èåðàðõè ïÿòíàäöàòè Ïîìåñòíûõ ïðàâîñëàâíûõ öåðêâåé, à òàêæå Ðóññêîé
            öåðêâè çà ðóáåæîì ñîáðàëèñü â ñðåäó â ñòåíàõ Òðîèöå-Ñåðèåâîé ëàâðû íà
            Âñåìèðíûé ðóññêèé íàðîäíûé ñîáîð.

            Âïåðâûå çà ïîñëåäíèå äåñÿòü ëåò, â òå÷åíèå êîòîðûõ ïðîâîäèòñÿ ýòî
            ìåðîïðèÿòèå, â íåì ïðèíèìàþò ó÷àñòèå ïðåäñòàâèòåëè Ðóññêîé öåðêâè çà
            ðóáåæîì è ñòàðîîáðÿä÷åñêîé îáùèíû. Ïðàâîñëàâèå èñïîâåäóþò îêîëî 300
            ìèëëèîíîâ õðèñòèàí, è, îòêðûâàÿ Ñîáîð, Ïàòðèàðõ Àëåêñèé II ïðèçâàë èõ
            ê åäèíåíèþ.

            "Íàáèðàþò ñèëó èíòåãðàöèîííûå ïðîöåññû â Åâðîïå, ìóñóëüìàíñêèå
            ãîñóäàðñòâà ñòðåìÿòñÿ êîíñîëèäèðîâàòü ñâîè óñèëèÿ íà ìåæäóíàðîäíîé
            àðåíå. Ìîãóò ëè â òàêèõ óñëîâèÿõ îñòàâàòüñÿ ðàçîáùåííûìè ñòðàíû ñ
            ìíîãîâåêîâîé ïðàâîñëàâíîé êóëüòóðîé?" - çàÿâèë Àëåêñèé II.

            The Hierarchs of fifteen local orthodox churches, and also the
            Russian church abroad have gathered on Wednesday within the walls of
            the Trinity – Sergius Lavra for the "World Russian national
            convention".

            For the first time since the ten years during which this action has
            been going on, representatives of the Russian church abroad and an of
            the old believers community are taking part. Orthodoxy counts about
            300 million Christians, and, while opening the convention, Patriarch
            Alexis II called for their union.

            "The integration processes in Europe is gaining strength, the Muslim
            states want to consolidate their efforts on the international scene.
            Under such conditions, may the countries with centuries-old orthodox
            culture remain separated? " asked Alexis II.

            Faher P. Holodny represented the ROCOR at this meeting. His
            interview, published on the site below conveys a rather strange
            message from the ROCOR.

            http://www.radiomayak.ru/society/04/02/04/27709.html

            The picture of "Viesti" shows Alexis II addressing the meeting.
            Behind him, an acquaintance of mine, Serghey Lykoshin, is sitting.

            http://www.whoiswho.ru/russian/Password/journals/31997/lykoshinr.htm

            He is a member of the Russian Union of Writers. I also know
            personally the secretary of the same association, L. B., with whom I
            talked on the telephone today. She too was invited to participate in
            the meeting and prepared a presentation on the necessity of Orthodox
            education in schools.

            At the last moment, her participation was cancelled with no reason
            given. She then asked the president of the Russian Union of Writers
            why she could not attend. The official reason was that she had been
            once close to "Natsionalniy Patriotichesky Soyuz", which has a very
            bad press now. The real but unofficial reason however was that she
            had never been a member of the communist party.

            Father Holodny was apparently in good company (Birds of a feather
            flock together).

            http://www.radiomayak.ru/society/04/02/04/27709.html

            In God,

            Vladimir Kozyreff


            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
            <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
            > Irina Pahlen wrote:
            >
            > > Dear Father John, Bless!
            > >
            > > Try this link, and you will see that it is confirmed.
            > >
            > > http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725
            >
            > JRS: After several minutes, nothing more than the logo at the top
            of
            > the page ("VESTI") had appeared on my computer screen: no articles
            of
            > any kind.
            >
            > However, thus far it does appear that some representatives of ROCOR
            are
            > in Moscow.
            >
            > There is nothing wrong with that, as I see it!
            >
            > In Christ
            > Fr. John R. Shaw
          • Fr. John R. Shaw
            ... JRS: You do not specify what is strange in his message. I m afraid I don t see anything could honestly I disagree with. The main technical problems are
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 5, 2004
              Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
              >
              > Faher P. Holodny represented the ROCOR at this meeting. His
              > interview, published on the site below conveys a rather strange
              > message from the ROCOR.
              >
              > http://www.radiomayak.ru/society/04/02/04/27709.html

              JRS: You do not specify what is "strange" in his message. I'm afraid I
              don't see anything could honestly I disagree with.

              The main "technical" problems are indeed that each jurisdiction has
              taken in priests suspended by the other -- and that, in some places,
              there are "parallel parishes", with a hostile mutual relationship.

              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw
            • michael nikitin
              One day we faithful may wake up and find ourselves in the arms of the MP. If there is nothing wrong with attending, why are the faithful kept in the dark?
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 5, 2004
                One day we faithful may wake up and
                find ourselves in the arms of the MP.

                If there is nothing wrong with attending, why
                are the faithful kept in the dark?

                Michael N


                "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote: Irina Pahlen wrote:

                > Dear Father John, Bless!
                >
                > Try this link, and you will see that it is confirmed.
                >
                > http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725

                JRS: After several minutes, nothing more than the logo at the top of
                the page ("VESTI") had appeared on my computer screen: no articles of
                any kind.

                However, thus far it does appear that some representatives of ROCOR are
                in Moscow.

                There is nothing wrong with that, as I see it!

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw






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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Elena Baranov
                For many, the strangeness factor in the ROCOR -- MP encounters is the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is Archpriest Peter Holodny,
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 10, 2004
                  For many, the "strangeness" factor in the ROCOR -- MP encounters is the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is Archpriest Peter Holodny, the treasurer of ROCOR, i.e. someone who holds the purse strings and who has detailed and complete knowledge of ROCOR's assets, finances and property documents.

                  The atmosphere of secrecy and denials on the part of ROCOR hierarchy adds further to the "strangeness" factor and creates a major credibility gap.

                  During November 2003 visit of ROCOR bishops to Moscow, according to reports from "Nezavisimaya Gazeta" among others, the agenda for day two of the meetings focused on transfer of ROCOR properties to "Mother Church". Fr. Holodny, in his follow up interviews in Moscow, indirectly admitted that the transfer of ROCOR property is part of the dialogue.

                  If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union between ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their emphasis is on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow. Hardly any value is placed on spiritual heritage or canonical issues. From the spiritual aspect, ROCOR is consistently depicted as a group of schismatics or worse -- Deacon Kuraev's recent article on ROCOR is a good example in this respect. It is unfortunate that most of these publications are not available in English translations.

                  EAB
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Fr. John R. Shaw
                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com ; orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 12:14 PM
                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: ROCA-ROCOR members in Moscow (Official)



                  Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
                  >
                  > Faher P. Holodny represented the ROCOR at this meeting. His
                  > interview, published on the site below conveys a rather strange
                  > message from the ROCOR.
                  >
                  > http://www.radiomayak.ru/society/04/02/04/27709.html

                  JRS: You do not specify what is "strange" in his message. I'm afraid I
                  don't see anything could honestly I disagree with.

                  The main "technical" problems are indeed that each jurisdiction has
                  taken in priests suspended by the other -- and that, in some places,
                  there are "parallel parishes", with a hostile mutual relationship.

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw



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                • Fr. John R. Shaw
                  ... the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is Archpriest Peter Holodny, the treasurer of ROCOR, JRS: Why do you say that he is in the
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 11, 2004
                    Regarding:

                    > For many, the "strangeness" factor in the ROCOR -- MP encounters is
                    the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is
                    Archpriest Peter Holodny, the treasurer of ROCOR,

                    JRS: Why do you say that he is "in the center"? Except that his name
                    recently has appeared in the news.

                    i.e. someone who holds the purse strings and who has detailed and
                    complete knowledge of ROCOR's assets, finances and property documents.

                    JRS: Assets and finances that are *not* impressive, sad to say!

                    > The atmosphere of secrecy and denials on the part of ROCOR hierarchy
                    adds further to the "strangeness" factor and creates a major
                    credibility gap.

                    JRS: Also I see no signs of "secrecy", or of a credibility gap.

                    For me, the "credibility gap" lies in ROCiE, with its systematic
                    attempts to deceive the faithful, its deliberate misinformation,
                    attempts to "spin" every news item into something that would somehow
                    work in their favor.

                    > During November 2003 visit of ROCOR bishops to Moscow, according to
                    reports from "Nezavisimaya Gazeta" among others, the agenda for day two
                    of the meetings focused on transfer of ROCOR properties to "Mother
                    Church". Fr. Holodny, in his follow up interviews in Moscow,
                    indirectly admitted that the transfer of ROCOR property is part of the
                    dialogue.

                    JRS: This is absolute rubbish. There has been no question of "transfer
                    of properties", and this has been stated several times.

                    Nor could there very well be any such transfers, since the MP does not
                    own its own property!

                    > If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union between
                    ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their emphasis is
                    on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow.

                    JRS: Absolute rubbish. There may be *speculation* about such things, by
                    various reporters, but there has been no such discussion of assets, nor
                    will there be.

                    > Hardly any value is placed on spiritual heritage or canonical
                    issues. From the spiritual aspect, ROCOR is consistently depicted as a
                    group of schismatics or worse -- Deacon Kuraev's recent article on
                    ROCOR is a good example in this respect. It is unfortunate that most
                    of these publications are not available in English translations.

                    JRS: Why is that "unfortunate"? The MP has not made any such statements
                    since the beginning of actual contacts; and we have people, in
                    particular some deacons, in ROCOR who have made irresponsible personal
                    statements.

                    In Christ
                    Fr. John R. Shaw
                  • Fr. John R. Shaw
                    ... is ... JRS: Just to show what nonsense such claims are, the Church Abroad has been very hard-pressed for funds now for a long time. The main reason for
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 11, 2004
                      Elena Baranova wrote:

                      > > If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union between
                      > ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their emphasis
                      is
                      > on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow.

                      JRS: Just to show what nonsense such claims are, the Church Abroad has
                      been very hard-pressed for funds now for a long time.

                      The main reason for this, is that people donate so little to the
                      Church.

                      The recent influx of new people from Russia has not helped the problem
                      at all, since many of them suppose that in America, the Church is
                      supported by the goverment, or that "the Church is wealthy", as your
                      own comments seem to suggest.

                      My impression, in fact, is that the Patriarchal parishes outside of
                      Russia are much more affluent today, than most of the parishes of ROCOR!

                      The only purpose in making such absurd claims, would be to cause as
                      much doubt and murmuring among our people as possible: and this, in
                      turn, shows total lack of regard for the welfare of the Church and
                      faithful in general; a desire merely to enhance the fortunes of ROCiE,
                      and to hurt ROCOR, no matter by what means.

                      In Christ
                      Fr. John R. Shaw
                    • vkozyreff
                      Dear Father John, bless. You say that the MP is not interested by the ROCOR properties. What is then the meaning of the well known ROCOR declaration below?
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 12, 2004
                        Dear Father John, bless.

                        You say that the MP is not interested by the ROCOR properties. What
                        is then the meaning of the well known ROCOR declaration below?

                        "Statement of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church
                        Outside of Russia to the Russian Orthodox People
                        The leadership of the Moscow Patriarchate has now officially declared
                        that it views the property of the Russian Church Outside of Russia as
                        belonging to itself, for only it, and no other, is the "sole legal
                        heir to the property of the pre-Revolutionary Church," which,
                        consequently, "is being held by the schismatics abroad illegally,"
                        and that such a decision "is accepted by the Orthodox believing
                        people of Russia with joy and profound gratitude.""

                        http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/english/pages/poslania/statementof
                        synod.html

                        What is the reason why Father Peter Kholodny, explicitly named as
                        the "ROCOR's treasurer" went to Moscow at such an early stage of the
                        union's process? One would have expected that the Synod's treasurer
                        would have had nothing to discuss with the MP, unless financial
                        matters were on the agenda.

                        DELEGATION OF THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA VISITS
                        MOSCOW

                        A delegation of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
                        consisting of Archbishop Mark of Berlin and Germany, Archbishop
                        Hilarion of Sydney, Australia and New Zealand, Bishop Kyrill of San
                        Francisco and Western America, Archpriest Nikolai Artemoff, secretary
                        of the German diocese and Archpriest Peter Holodny, treasurer of the
                        Synod of Bishops, arrived in Moscow on 17 November 2003 at the
                        invitation of the Russian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate.

                        Press-release, November 19. 2003
                        http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/ne311192.htm

                        We have no animosity towards Father Peter, on the contrary. Some of
                        the French ROCOR (V) faithful recall that Father Peter Kholodny, who
                        was spending his holidays in Cannes in June 2001, kindly attended at
                        that time with the ROCOR (V) faithful, the liturgy celebrated by Vl
                        Varnava, just after the latter had left the Synod (L).

                        Please do not see here any "desire merely to enhance the fortunes of
                        ROCiE, and to hurt ROCOR, no matter by what means", but just the wish
                        to understand.

                        In God,

                        Vladimir Kozyreff



                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                        <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                        > Elena Baranova wrote:
                        >
                        > > > If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union
                        between
                        > > ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their
                        emphasis
                        > is
                        > > on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow.
                        >
                        > JRS: Just to show what nonsense such claims are, the Church Abroad
                        has
                        > been very hard-pressed for funds now for a long time.
                        >
                        > The main reason for this, is that people donate so little to the
                        > Church.
                        >
                        > The recent influx of new people from Russia has not helped the
                        problem
                        > at all, since many of them suppose that in America, the Church is
                        > supported by the goverment, or that "the Church is wealthy", as
                        your
                        > own comments seem to suggest.
                        >
                        > My impression, in fact, is that the Patriarchal parishes outside of
                        > Russia are much more affluent today, than most of the parishes of
                        ROCOR!
                        >
                        > The only purpose in making such absurd claims, would be to cause as
                        > much doubt and murmuring among our people as possible: and this, in
                        > turn, shows total lack of regard for the welfare of the Church and
                        > faithful in general;
                        >
                        > In Christ
                        > Fr. John R. Shaw
                      • michael nikitin
                        ROCOR s property in Jerusalem was given to the MP by those who wanted union with MP. The deed to the property mysteriously appeared in the hands of MP just
                        Message 11 of 15 , Feb 12, 2004
                          ROCOR's property in Jerusalem was given to the MP by those
                          who wanted union with MP. The deed to the property mysteriously appeared
                          in the hands of MP just before the visit and procurement of the property by
                          force by our Mother Church. This was already written in the books as a prelude to
                          union.

                          Union of Mysteries now.........transfer of property later.

                          Union would have materialized long ago if the faithful
                          did not leave as did HOCNA, ROAC and ROCOR(V).

                          Now the faithful are slowly being aclimatized to the MP as to weather.

                          The assets are pretty impressive when one considers the Church property
                          in many countries belonging to ROCOR.

                          There is more to this than meets the eye.

                          Michael N


                          "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:Regarding:

                          > For many, the "strangeness" factor in the ROCOR -- MP encounters is
                          the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is
                          Archpriest Peter Holodny, the treasurer of ROCOR,

                          JRS: Why do you say that he is "in the center"? Except that his name
                          recently has appeared in the news.

                          i.e. someone who holds the purse strings and who has detailed and
                          complete knowledge of ROCOR's assets, finances and property documents.

                          JRS: Assets and finances that are *not* impressive, sad to say!

                          > The atmosphere of secrecy and denials on the part of ROCOR hierarchy
                          adds further to the "strangeness" factor and creates a major
                          credibility gap.

                          JRS: Also I see no signs of "secrecy", or of a credibility gap.

                          For me, the "credibility gap" lies in ROCiE, with its systematic
                          attempts to deceive the faithful, its deliberate misinformation,
                          attempts to "spin" every news item into something that would somehow
                          work in their favor.

                          > During November 2003 visit of ROCOR bishops to Moscow, according to
                          reports from "Nezavisimaya Gazeta" among others, the agenda for day two
                          of the meetings focused on transfer of ROCOR properties to "Mother
                          Church". Fr. Holodny, in his follow up interviews in Moscow,
                          indirectly admitted that the transfer of ROCOR property is part of the
                          dialogue.

                          JRS: This is absolute rubbish. There has been no question of "transfer
                          of properties", and this has been stated several times.

                          Nor could there very well be any such transfers, since the MP does not
                          own its own property!

                          > If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union between
                          ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their emphasis is
                          on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow.

                          JRS: Absolute rubbish. There may be *speculation* about such things, by
                          various reporters, but there has been no such discussion of assets, nor
                          will there be.

                          > Hardly any value is placed on spiritual heritage or canonical
                          issues. From the spiritual aspect, ROCOR is consistently depicted as a
                          group of schismatics or worse -- Deacon Kuraev's recent article on
                          ROCOR is a good example in this respect. It is unfortunate that most
                          of these publications are not available in English translations.

                          JRS: Why is that "unfortunate"? The MP has not made any such statements
                          since the beginning of actual contacts; and we have people, in
                          particular some deacons, in ROCOR who have made irresponsible personal
                          statements.

                          In Christ
                          Fr. John R. Shaw





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                        • boulia_1
                          Dear Vladimir, I don t want to get too involved with this discussion, as my own knowledge of facts is limited, and, on the eve of the Great fast, i I am wont
                          Message 12 of 15 , Feb 12, 2004
                            Dear Vladimir,

                            I don't want to get too involved with this discussion, as my own
                            knowledge of 'facts' is limited, and, on the eve of the Great fast, i
                            I am wont to get into argument. But one thing I, and most Synod
                            (Cathedral) people who know the Holodny family, am aware of is that
                            Fr. Peter is REGULARLY in Moscow. At one point, his entire family
                            (wife and three lovely children) took residence there, and, though
                            they decided not to stay for the childrens' sake, he may well still
                            own a home there.

                            However, his Moscow presence was NOT at ROCOR's behest, but a
                            requirement of business connected with his financial services
                            industry job. (Unfortunately, despite ideas that ROCOR is "rich,"
                            many and perhaps most of our Priests do have to take earthly jobs to
                            support their families.)

                            Hence, I suspect that there is a simple answer to the following
                            question which you posed:

                            > What is the reason why Father Peter Kholodny, explicitly named as
                            > the "ROCOR's treasurer" went to Moscow at such an early stage of
                            the
                            > union's process? One would have expected that the Synod's treasurer
                            > would have had nothing to discuss with the MP, unless financial
                            > matters were on the agenda.
                            >


                            I am CONFIDENT that Fr. Peter happened to be in Moscow at the time,
                            for OTHER reasons, and joined in, being that "his own" fellow ROCOR
                            clergy were in town (despite slanderous comments on this list to the
                            contrary, it is a RARITY for him to be among his own in Moscow, and I
                            am sure he was happy to see everyone, especially Vl. Hilarion, who
                            was at one time his ruling Bishop in NY...).

                            By the way, the press release you quote explicitly states that Father
                            Peter is treasurer of the Synod of Bishops, NOT of "ROCOR". There IS
                            a difference! And the press releadr was issued by the MP, and I think
                            they got it wrong. As far as I know (and I checked a year-old edition
                            of the ROCOR "spisok"), O. Petr is the treasurer of the NY DIOCESE
                            (and I believe of the Synod CATHEDRAL), but not of "the" Synod
                            itself.

                            I fear you are too ready to find fault and are anxiously over-
                            suspicious, in this case.

                            Wishing you peace and a blessed Fast,
                            Elizabeth
                          • Fr. John R. Shaw
                            ... JRS: The above quote does not reflect the current situation. As I have written before -- the idea that time does not pass is simply not borne out by
                            Message 13 of 15 , Feb 12, 2004
                              Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:

                              > "Statement of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church
                              > Outside of Russia to the Russian Orthodox People
                              > The leadership of the Moscow Patriarchate has now officially declared
                              > that it views the property of the Russian Church Outside of Russia as
                              > belonging to itself...

                              JRS: The above quote does not reflect the current situation.

                              As I have written before -- the idea that "time does not pass" is
                              simply not borne out by reality.

                              In Christ
                              Fr. John R. Shaw
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