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ROCA-ROCOR members in Moscow (Official)

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  • Kato
    Interesting news again. Not trying to spark any battles. Watching the news today on russian tv, out of the blue, I found out that there s a Russian Orthodox
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 3, 2004
      Interesting news again.

      Not trying to spark any battles.

      Watching the news today on russian tv, out of the blue, I found out
      that there's a Russian Orthodox meeting happening at Sergeiev Possad
      today. Alot of business elite, political leaders as well as the
      russian foreign minister all of who are taking part.

      Among them, the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad members too.

      This was interesting.

      No ROCA names were mentioned, no faces shown.

      I went to our orthodox web pages, and found no updated news on this
      from both sides. But from the Russian news agencies it is repeated
      several times.

      News and video footage:
      http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725
      http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725#

      News: about conference
      http://www.strana.ru/news/203715.html
      http://www.russ.ru/politics/news/20040203_ilyin.html
      http://www.newsinfo.ru/?a=radio&sa=view_new&id=47986&y=x
      http://www.ntv.ru/news/index.jsp?nid=38813
      http://www.radiomayak.ru/interview/04/02/03/27688.html

      http://www.1tv.ru/owa/win/ort6_main.main?
      p_news_title_id=63711&p_news_razdel_id=1
      Video footage (unfortunately I can't open it)
      http://www-download.1tv.ru/video/2004_02/0302041507.asf

      In english reports:
      http://www.gateway2russia.com/st/art_206759.php
      http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=380516&PageNum=0
      http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=376890&PageNum=0
      http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=375856&PageNum=0

      ROCA site:
      http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/index.html

      The new MP website:
      http://www.mospat.ru/news
      The old MP site:
      http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/news_en.htm

      The White Russian Forum:
      http://forums.delphiforums.com/WhiteRussian/start
    • Fr. John R. Shaw
      ... JRS: I read only two of these articles, but I saw no indication in them that ROCOR members were actually present (though why shouldn t they be present, for
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 3, 2004
        "Kato" wrote:

        > Watching the news today on russian tv, out of the blue, I found out
        > that there's a Russian Orthodox meeting happening at Sergeiev Possad
        > today. Alot of business elite, political leaders as well as the
        > russian foreign minister all of who are taking part.
        >
        > Among them, the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad members too.

        JRS: I read only two of these articles, but I saw no indication in them
        that ROCOR members were actually present (though why shouldn't they be
        present, for that matter?).

        All the first two articles said, was that the visit of the ROCOR
        delegation was discussed (there was one such visit last fall, another
        planned for the first part of this year).

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw
      • goossir
        Dear Father John, Bless! Try this link, and you will see that it is confirmed. http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725 Yours, in Christ Irina Pahlen ... out ...
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 4, 2004
          Dear Father John, Bless!

          Try this link, and you will see that it is confirmed.

          http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725

          Yours, in Christ

          Irina Pahlen


          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
          <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
          >
          > "Kato" wrote:
          >
          > > Watching the news today on russian tv, out of the blue, I found
          out
          > > that there's a Russian Orthodox meeting happening at Sergeiev
          Possad
          > > today. Alot of business elite, political leaders as well as the
          > > russian foreign minister all of who are taking part.
          > >
          > > Among them, the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad members too.
          >
          > JRS: I read only two of these articles, but I saw no indication in
          them
          > that ROCOR members were actually present (though why shouldn't they
          be
          > present, for that matter?).
          >
          > All the first two articles said, was that the visit of the ROCOR
          > delegation was discussed (there was one such visit last fall,
          another
          > planned for the first part of this year).
          >
          > In Christ
          > Fr. John R. Shaw
        • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
          Russian Congress calls for closeness btw Russian Church branches 03.02.2004, SERGIYEV POSSAD, Moscow region, February 3 (www.itar-tass.com) - Participants of
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 4, 2004
            Russian Congress calls for closeness btw Russian Church branches
            03.02.2004, SERGIYEV POSSAD, Moscow region, February 3
            (www.itar-tass.com) - Participants of the 8th World Congress of the
            Russian People, underway in the Holy Trinity Monastery near Moscow,
            have called for a rapprochement between the Russian Orthodox Church
            reporting to Moscow Partiarchate and the Russian Orthodox Church
            Abroad (ROCA).
            "It is a pleasure for us to point out the positive tendencies that
            have taken a clear outline in relations between the mainstream Russian
            Church and ROCA," Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Alexis II said in
            a speech at the Congress.
            "There is hope now that the division of our Church, produced by the
            tragic events of the past century will be eliminated," he said.
            Russia must help the nations espousing Eastern Orthodox Christianity
            to keep unity as members of an identical civilization, Alexis II said.
            "Nowadays challenges compel the nations having close cultural and
            spiritual traditions to unite," Alexis II said. "This is happening at
            a time when the integration process is gaining pace and the Moslem
            nations are consolidating, too".
            "The Eastern Orthodox civilization must consider its role in world
            processes," Alexis II said.
            Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Alexis II has had a conversation
            with officials representing Local Orthodox Churches from foreign
            countries.
            "Fairly recently, many Eastern Orthodox Churches were oppressed by
            totalitarian regimes," Alexis II said. "But now we are evidencing a
            return of our nations to the values of Orthodoxy".
            "Revival goes beyond the restoration of church buildings; it is now
            embracing education and social services," he indicated.
            Representatives of Orthodox Churches from many countries have taken
            part in the sessions of the Congress, as well as made reports at it.
            Officials from the Patriarchates of Constantinople, Alexandria,
            Antioch, and Jerusalem were among them.
            Metropolitan Cyril, the chairman of external relations department at
            Moscow Patriarchate, dismissed the opinion that ROCA could be ignored
            because of having a mere 300 parishes across the world.
            "Statistic arguments are totally irrelevant when it comes down to the
            destiny of the people, whose ancestors made up the cream of Russian
            society," His Beatitude Cyril said, adding that reunification of the
            two branches of a once united Russian Church might have a good curing
            effect on this country.
            He indicated that the world has around 300 million followers of
            Eastern Orthodoxy at the moment, and the Russians make up about a half
            of them.
            Metropolitan Cyril recalled at the same time that there are Arabs,
            Americans, Europeans, and representatives of African nations among the
            worldwide Eastern Orthodox congregation.
            "Not only do the Orthodox countries play the role of a bridge between
            the Orient and the Occident, they also make up an independent
            civilization, based on the idea of mutual servicing rather than
            domination of some peoples over others," he said.
            Russia's Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov, who also addressed the
            Congress, said Russia abides by Christian principles in its foreign
            policy, as it demands respectful relations between different countries.
            He said the Russian diplomats had been pleased to notice the prospects
            of overcoming the divide between the two branches of the Church.
            Hierarchs of all the 15 autonomous Eastern Orthodox Churches, the ROCA
            followers, and representatives of Russian communities from across the
            world are attending the Congress.
            The organizers have also invited Russian government officials,
            activists of creative unions, scientists and public figures to attend.
            February 4, the sessions will continue at St Daniel's Monastery in
            Moscow.
            Russia's President Vladimir Putin has sent greetings to the
            participants in and guests of the 8th World Russian Congress.
            "For over a decade, your forum has been gathering representatives of
            the Russian clergy, scientists, people of artistic professions,
            intellectuals, and public activists for a discussion of pressing
            issues of the country's development," Putin said in a telegram of
            greetings.
            "The topic of the forum, Russia and the Eastern Orthodox World
            converges many vital aspects of nowadays life," he said.
            "Let me hope that your activity will help tap the ways of solution of
            the crucial humanitarian problems, as well as consolidate the
            spiritual and moral principles of society," Putin indicated.
          • Fr. John R. Shaw
            ... JRS: After several minutes, nothing more than the logo at the top of the page ( VESTI ) had appeared on my computer screen: no articles of any kind.
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 4, 2004
              Irina Pahlen wrote:

              > Dear Father John, Bless!
              >
              > Try this link, and you will see that it is confirmed.
              >
              > http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725

              JRS: After several minutes, nothing more than the logo at the top of
              the page ("VESTI") had appeared on my computer screen: no articles of
              any kind.

              However, thus far it does appear that some representatives of ROCOR are
              in Moscow.

              There is nothing wrong with that, as I see it!

              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw
            • vkozyreff
              Dear Father John, bless. This is the text published under http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725 My translation is below. 03.02.2004 17:14, Íîâîñòü.
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 5, 2004
                Dear Father John, bless.

                This is the text published under

                http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725

                My translation is below.

                03.02.2004 17:14, Íîâîñòü. Àëåêñèé II îòêðûë Âñåìèðíûé ðóññêèé
                íàðîäíûé ñîáîð.

                Èåðàðõè ïÿòíàäöàòè Ïîìåñòíûõ ïðàâîñëàâíûõ öåðêâåé, à òàêæå Ðóññêîé
                öåðêâè çà ðóáåæîì ñîáðàëèñü â ñðåäó â ñòåíàõ Òðîèöå-Ñåðèåâîé ëàâðû íà
                Âñåìèðíûé ðóññêèé íàðîäíûé ñîáîð.

                Âïåðâûå çà ïîñëåäíèå äåñÿòü ëåò, â òå÷åíèå êîòîðûõ ïðîâîäèòñÿ ýòî
                ìåðîïðèÿòèå, â íåì ïðèíèìàþò ó÷àñòèå ïðåäñòàâèòåëè Ðóññêîé öåðêâè çà
                ðóáåæîì è ñòàðîîáðÿä÷åñêîé îáùèíû. Ïðàâîñëàâèå èñïîâåäóþò îêîëî 300
                ìèëëèîíîâ õðèñòèàí, è, îòêðûâàÿ Ñîáîð, Ïàòðèàðõ Àëåêñèé II ïðèçâàë èõ
                ê åäèíåíèþ.

                "Íàáèðàþò ñèëó èíòåãðàöèîííûå ïðîöåññû â Åâðîïå, ìóñóëüìàíñêèå
                ãîñóäàðñòâà ñòðåìÿòñÿ êîíñîëèäèðîâàòü ñâîè óñèëèÿ íà ìåæäóíàðîäíîé
                àðåíå. Ìîãóò ëè â òàêèõ óñëîâèÿõ îñòàâàòüñÿ ðàçîáùåííûìè ñòðàíû ñ
                ìíîãîâåêîâîé ïðàâîñëàâíîé êóëüòóðîé?" - çàÿâèë Àëåêñèé II.

                The Hierarchs of fifteen local orthodox churches, and also the
                Russian church abroad have gathered on Wednesday within the walls of
                the Trinity – Sergius Lavra for the "World Russian national
                convention".

                For the first time since the ten years during which this action has
                been going on, representatives of the Russian church abroad and an of
                the old believers community are taking part. Orthodoxy counts about
                300 million Christians, and, while opening the convention, Patriarch
                Alexis II called for their union.

                "The integration processes in Europe is gaining strength, the Muslim
                states want to consolidate their efforts on the international scene.
                Under such conditions, may the countries with centuries-old orthodox
                culture remain separated? " asked Alexis II.

                Faher P. Holodny represented the ROCOR at this meeting. His
                interview, published on the site below conveys a rather strange
                message from the ROCOR.

                http://www.radiomayak.ru/society/04/02/04/27709.html

                The picture of "Viesti" shows Alexis II addressing the meeting.
                Behind him, an acquaintance of mine, Serghey Lykoshin, is sitting.

                http://www.whoiswho.ru/russian/Password/journals/31997/lykoshinr.htm

                He is a member of the Russian Union of Writers. I also know
                personally the secretary of the same association, L. B., with whom I
                talked on the telephone today. She too was invited to participate in
                the meeting and prepared a presentation on the necessity of Orthodox
                education in schools.

                At the last moment, her participation was cancelled with no reason
                given. She then asked the president of the Russian Union of Writers
                why she could not attend. The official reason was that she had been
                once close to "Natsionalniy Patriotichesky Soyuz", which has a very
                bad press now. The real but unofficial reason however was that she
                had never been a member of the communist party.

                Father Holodny was apparently in good company (Birds of a feather
                flock together).

                http://www.radiomayak.ru/society/04/02/04/27709.html

                In God,

                Vladimir Kozyreff


                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                > Irina Pahlen wrote:
                >
                > > Dear Father John, Bless!
                > >
                > > Try this link, and you will see that it is confirmed.
                > >
                > > http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725
                >
                > JRS: After several minutes, nothing more than the logo at the top
                of
                > the page ("VESTI") had appeared on my computer screen: no articles
                of
                > any kind.
                >
                > However, thus far it does appear that some representatives of ROCOR
                are
                > in Moscow.
                >
                > There is nothing wrong with that, as I see it!
                >
                > In Christ
                > Fr. John R. Shaw
              • Fr. John R. Shaw
                ... JRS: You do not specify what is strange in his message. I m afraid I don t see anything could honestly I disagree with. The main technical problems are
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 5, 2004
                  Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
                  >
                  > Faher P. Holodny represented the ROCOR at this meeting. His
                  > interview, published on the site below conveys a rather strange
                  > message from the ROCOR.
                  >
                  > http://www.radiomayak.ru/society/04/02/04/27709.html

                  JRS: You do not specify what is "strange" in his message. I'm afraid I
                  don't see anything could honestly I disagree with.

                  The main "technical" problems are indeed that each jurisdiction has
                  taken in priests suspended by the other -- and that, in some places,
                  there are "parallel parishes", with a hostile mutual relationship.

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw
                • michael nikitin
                  One day we faithful may wake up and find ourselves in the arms of the MP. If there is nothing wrong with attending, why are the faithful kept in the dark?
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 5, 2004
                    One day we faithful may wake up and
                    find ourselves in the arms of the MP.

                    If there is nothing wrong with attending, why
                    are the faithful kept in the dark?

                    Michael N


                    "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote: Irina Pahlen wrote:

                    > Dear Father John, Bless!
                    >
                    > Try this link, and you will see that it is confirmed.
                    >
                    > http://www.vesti.ru/news.html?id=48725

                    JRS: After several minutes, nothing more than the logo at the top of
                    the page ("VESTI") had appeared on my computer screen: no articles of
                    any kind.

                    However, thus far it does appear that some representatives of ROCOR are
                    in Moscow.

                    There is nothing wrong with that, as I see it!

                    In Christ
                    Fr. John R. Shaw






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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Elena Baranov
                    For many, the strangeness factor in the ROCOR -- MP encounters is the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is Archpriest Peter Holodny,
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 10, 2004
                      For many, the "strangeness" factor in the ROCOR -- MP encounters is the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is Archpriest Peter Holodny, the treasurer of ROCOR, i.e. someone who holds the purse strings and who has detailed and complete knowledge of ROCOR's assets, finances and property documents.

                      The atmosphere of secrecy and denials on the part of ROCOR hierarchy adds further to the "strangeness" factor and creates a major credibility gap.

                      During November 2003 visit of ROCOR bishops to Moscow, according to reports from "Nezavisimaya Gazeta" among others, the agenda for day two of the meetings focused on transfer of ROCOR properties to "Mother Church". Fr. Holodny, in his follow up interviews in Moscow, indirectly admitted that the transfer of ROCOR property is part of the dialogue.

                      If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union between ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their emphasis is on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow. Hardly any value is placed on spiritual heritage or canonical issues. From the spiritual aspect, ROCOR is consistently depicted as a group of schismatics or worse -- Deacon Kuraev's recent article on ROCOR is a good example in this respect. It is unfortunate that most of these publications are not available in English translations.

                      EAB
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Fr. John R. Shaw
                      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com ; orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 12:14 PM
                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: ROCA-ROCOR members in Moscow (Official)



                      Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
                      >
                      > Faher P. Holodny represented the ROCOR at this meeting. His
                      > interview, published on the site below conveys a rather strange
                      > message from the ROCOR.
                      >
                      > http://www.radiomayak.ru/society/04/02/04/27709.html

                      JRS: You do not specify what is "strange" in his message. I'm afraid I
                      don't see anything could honestly I disagree with.

                      The main "technical" problems are indeed that each jurisdiction has
                      taken in priests suspended by the other -- and that, in some places,
                      there are "parallel parishes", with a hostile mutual relationship.

                      In Christ
                      Fr. John R. Shaw



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                    • Fr. John R. Shaw
                      ... the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is Archpriest Peter Holodny, the treasurer of ROCOR, JRS: Why do you say that he is in the
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 11, 2004
                        Regarding:

                        > For many, the "strangeness" factor in the ROCOR -- MP encounters is
                        the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is
                        Archpriest Peter Holodny, the treasurer of ROCOR,

                        JRS: Why do you say that he is "in the center"? Except that his name
                        recently has appeared in the news.

                        i.e. someone who holds the purse strings and who has detailed and
                        complete knowledge of ROCOR's assets, finances and property documents.

                        JRS: Assets and finances that are *not* impressive, sad to say!

                        > The atmosphere of secrecy and denials on the part of ROCOR hierarchy
                        adds further to the "strangeness" factor and creates a major
                        credibility gap.

                        JRS: Also I see no signs of "secrecy", or of a credibility gap.

                        For me, the "credibility gap" lies in ROCiE, with its systematic
                        attempts to deceive the faithful, its deliberate misinformation,
                        attempts to "spin" every news item into something that would somehow
                        work in their favor.

                        > During November 2003 visit of ROCOR bishops to Moscow, according to
                        reports from "Nezavisimaya Gazeta" among others, the agenda for day two
                        of the meetings focused on transfer of ROCOR properties to "Mother
                        Church". Fr. Holodny, in his follow up interviews in Moscow,
                        indirectly admitted that the transfer of ROCOR property is part of the
                        dialogue.

                        JRS: This is absolute rubbish. There has been no question of "transfer
                        of properties", and this has been stated several times.

                        Nor could there very well be any such transfers, since the MP does not
                        own its own property!

                        > If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union between
                        ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their emphasis is
                        on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow.

                        JRS: Absolute rubbish. There may be *speculation* about such things, by
                        various reporters, but there has been no such discussion of assets, nor
                        will there be.

                        > Hardly any value is placed on spiritual heritage or canonical
                        issues. From the spiritual aspect, ROCOR is consistently depicted as a
                        group of schismatics or worse -- Deacon Kuraev's recent article on
                        ROCOR is a good example in this respect. It is unfortunate that most
                        of these publications are not available in English translations.

                        JRS: Why is that "unfortunate"? The MP has not made any such statements
                        since the beginning of actual contacts; and we have people, in
                        particular some deacons, in ROCOR who have made irresponsible personal
                        statements.

                        In Christ
                        Fr. John R. Shaw
                      • Fr. John R. Shaw
                        ... is ... JRS: Just to show what nonsense such claims are, the Church Abroad has been very hard-pressed for funds now for a long time. The main reason for
                        Message 11 of 15 , Feb 11, 2004
                          Elena Baranova wrote:

                          > > If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union between
                          > ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their emphasis
                          is
                          > on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow.

                          JRS: Just to show what nonsense such claims are, the Church Abroad has
                          been very hard-pressed for funds now for a long time.

                          The main reason for this, is that people donate so little to the
                          Church.

                          The recent influx of new people from Russia has not helped the problem
                          at all, since many of them suppose that in America, the Church is
                          supported by the goverment, or that "the Church is wealthy", as your
                          own comments seem to suggest.

                          My impression, in fact, is that the Patriarchal parishes outside of
                          Russia are much more affluent today, than most of the parishes of ROCOR!

                          The only purpose in making such absurd claims, would be to cause as
                          much doubt and murmuring among our people as possible: and this, in
                          turn, shows total lack of regard for the welfare of the Church and
                          faithful in general; a desire merely to enhance the fortunes of ROCiE,
                          and to hurt ROCOR, no matter by what means.

                          In Christ
                          Fr. John R. Shaw
                        • vkozyreff
                          Dear Father John, bless. You say that the MP is not interested by the ROCOR properties. What is then the meaning of the well known ROCOR declaration below?
                          Message 12 of 15 , Feb 12, 2004
                            Dear Father John, bless.

                            You say that the MP is not interested by the ROCOR properties. What
                            is then the meaning of the well known ROCOR declaration below?

                            "Statement of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church
                            Outside of Russia to the Russian Orthodox People
                            The leadership of the Moscow Patriarchate has now officially declared
                            that it views the property of the Russian Church Outside of Russia as
                            belonging to itself, for only it, and no other, is the "sole legal
                            heir to the property of the pre-Revolutionary Church," which,
                            consequently, "is being held by the schismatics abroad illegally,"
                            and that such a decision "is accepted by the Orthodox believing
                            people of Russia with joy and profound gratitude.""

                            http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/english/pages/poslania/statementof
                            synod.html

                            What is the reason why Father Peter Kholodny, explicitly named as
                            the "ROCOR's treasurer" went to Moscow at such an early stage of the
                            union's process? One would have expected that the Synod's treasurer
                            would have had nothing to discuss with the MP, unless financial
                            matters were on the agenda.

                            DELEGATION OF THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA VISITS
                            MOSCOW

                            A delegation of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
                            consisting of Archbishop Mark of Berlin and Germany, Archbishop
                            Hilarion of Sydney, Australia and New Zealand, Bishop Kyrill of San
                            Francisco and Western America, Archpriest Nikolai Artemoff, secretary
                            of the German diocese and Archpriest Peter Holodny, treasurer of the
                            Synod of Bishops, arrived in Moscow on 17 November 2003 at the
                            invitation of the Russian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate.

                            Press-release, November 19. 2003
                            http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/ne311192.htm

                            We have no animosity towards Father Peter, on the contrary. Some of
                            the French ROCOR (V) faithful recall that Father Peter Kholodny, who
                            was spending his holidays in Cannes in June 2001, kindly attended at
                            that time with the ROCOR (V) faithful, the liturgy celebrated by Vl
                            Varnava, just after the latter had left the Synod (L).

                            Please do not see here any "desire merely to enhance the fortunes of
                            ROCiE, and to hurt ROCOR, no matter by what means", but just the wish
                            to understand.

                            In God,

                            Vladimir Kozyreff



                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                            <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                            > Elena Baranova wrote:
                            >
                            > > > If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union
                            between
                            > > ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their
                            emphasis
                            > is
                            > > on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow.
                            >
                            > JRS: Just to show what nonsense such claims are, the Church Abroad
                            has
                            > been very hard-pressed for funds now for a long time.
                            >
                            > The main reason for this, is that people donate so little to the
                            > Church.
                            >
                            > The recent influx of new people from Russia has not helped the
                            problem
                            > at all, since many of them suppose that in America, the Church is
                            > supported by the goverment, or that "the Church is wealthy", as
                            your
                            > own comments seem to suggest.
                            >
                            > My impression, in fact, is that the Patriarchal parishes outside of
                            > Russia are much more affluent today, than most of the parishes of
                            ROCOR!
                            >
                            > The only purpose in making such absurd claims, would be to cause as
                            > much doubt and murmuring among our people as possible: and this, in
                            > turn, shows total lack of regard for the welfare of the Church and
                            > faithful in general;
                            >
                            > In Christ
                            > Fr. John R. Shaw
                          • michael nikitin
                            ROCOR s property in Jerusalem was given to the MP by those who wanted union with MP. The deed to the property mysteriously appeared in the hands of MP just
                            Message 13 of 15 , Feb 12, 2004
                              ROCOR's property in Jerusalem was given to the MP by those
                              who wanted union with MP. The deed to the property mysteriously appeared
                              in the hands of MP just before the visit and procurement of the property by
                              force by our Mother Church. This was already written in the books as a prelude to
                              union.

                              Union of Mysteries now.........transfer of property later.

                              Union would have materialized long ago if the faithful
                              did not leave as did HOCNA, ROAC and ROCOR(V).

                              Now the faithful are slowly being aclimatized to the MP as to weather.

                              The assets are pretty impressive when one considers the Church property
                              in many countries belonging to ROCOR.

                              There is more to this than meets the eye.

                              Michael N


                              "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:Regarding:

                              > For many, the "strangeness" factor in the ROCOR -- MP encounters is
                              the fact that the person at the center of ROCOR -- MP meetings is
                              Archpriest Peter Holodny, the treasurer of ROCOR,

                              JRS: Why do you say that he is "in the center"? Except that his name
                              recently has appeared in the news.

                              i.e. someone who holds the purse strings and who has detailed and
                              complete knowledge of ROCOR's assets, finances and property documents.

                              JRS: Assets and finances that are *not* impressive, sad to say!

                              > The atmosphere of secrecy and denials on the part of ROCOR hierarchy
                              adds further to the "strangeness" factor and creates a major
                              credibility gap.

                              JRS: Also I see no signs of "secrecy", or of a credibility gap.

                              For me, the "credibility gap" lies in ROCiE, with its systematic
                              attempts to deceive the faithful, its deliberate misinformation,
                              attempts to "spin" every news item into something that would somehow
                              work in their favor.

                              > During November 2003 visit of ROCOR bishops to Moscow, according to
                              reports from "Nezavisimaya Gazeta" among others, the agenda for day two
                              of the meetings focused on transfer of ROCOR properties to "Mother
                              Church". Fr. Holodny, in his follow up interviews in Moscow,
                              indirectly admitted that the transfer of ROCOR property is part of the
                              dialogue.

                              JRS: This is absolute rubbish. There has been no question of "transfer
                              of properties", and this has been stated several times.

                              Nor could there very well be any such transfers, since the MP does not
                              own its own property!

                              > If one reads Russian news articles on the proposed union between
                              ROCOR and MP, including MP and orthodox publications, their emphasis is
                              on ROCOR assets, number of parishes and ROCOR cash flow.

                              JRS: Absolute rubbish. There may be *speculation* about such things, by
                              various reporters, but there has been no such discussion of assets, nor
                              will there be.

                              > Hardly any value is placed on spiritual heritage or canonical
                              issues. From the spiritual aspect, ROCOR is consistently depicted as a
                              group of schismatics or worse -- Deacon Kuraev's recent article on
                              ROCOR is a good example in this respect. It is unfortunate that most
                              of these publications are not available in English translations.

                              JRS: Why is that "unfortunate"? The MP has not made any such statements
                              since the beginning of actual contacts; and we have people, in
                              particular some deacons, in ROCOR who have made irresponsible personal
                              statements.

                              In Christ
                              Fr. John R. Shaw





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                            • boulia_1
                              Dear Vladimir, I don t want to get too involved with this discussion, as my own knowledge of facts is limited, and, on the eve of the Great fast, i I am wont
                              Message 14 of 15 , Feb 12, 2004
                                Dear Vladimir,

                                I don't want to get too involved with this discussion, as my own
                                knowledge of 'facts' is limited, and, on the eve of the Great fast, i
                                I am wont to get into argument. But one thing I, and most Synod
                                (Cathedral) people who know the Holodny family, am aware of is that
                                Fr. Peter is REGULARLY in Moscow. At one point, his entire family
                                (wife and three lovely children) took residence there, and, though
                                they decided not to stay for the childrens' sake, he may well still
                                own a home there.

                                However, his Moscow presence was NOT at ROCOR's behest, but a
                                requirement of business connected with his financial services
                                industry job. (Unfortunately, despite ideas that ROCOR is "rich,"
                                many and perhaps most of our Priests do have to take earthly jobs to
                                support their families.)

                                Hence, I suspect that there is a simple answer to the following
                                question which you posed:

                                > What is the reason why Father Peter Kholodny, explicitly named as
                                > the "ROCOR's treasurer" went to Moscow at such an early stage of
                                the
                                > union's process? One would have expected that the Synod's treasurer
                                > would have had nothing to discuss with the MP, unless financial
                                > matters were on the agenda.
                                >


                                I am CONFIDENT that Fr. Peter happened to be in Moscow at the time,
                                for OTHER reasons, and joined in, being that "his own" fellow ROCOR
                                clergy were in town (despite slanderous comments on this list to the
                                contrary, it is a RARITY for him to be among his own in Moscow, and I
                                am sure he was happy to see everyone, especially Vl. Hilarion, who
                                was at one time his ruling Bishop in NY...).

                                By the way, the press release you quote explicitly states that Father
                                Peter is treasurer of the Synod of Bishops, NOT of "ROCOR". There IS
                                a difference! And the press releadr was issued by the MP, and I think
                                they got it wrong. As far as I know (and I checked a year-old edition
                                of the ROCOR "spisok"), O. Petr is the treasurer of the NY DIOCESE
                                (and I believe of the Synod CATHEDRAL), but not of "the" Synod
                                itself.

                                I fear you are too ready to find fault and are anxiously over-
                                suspicious, in this case.

                                Wishing you peace and a blessed Fast,
                                Elizabeth
                              • Fr. John R. Shaw
                                ... JRS: The above quote does not reflect the current situation. As I have written before -- the idea that time does not pass is simply not borne out by
                                Message 15 of 15 , Feb 12, 2004
                                  Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:

                                  > "Statement of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church
                                  > Outside of Russia to the Russian Orthodox People
                                  > The leadership of the Moscow Patriarchate has now officially declared
                                  > that it views the property of the Russian Church Outside of Russia as
                                  > belonging to itself...

                                  JRS: The above quote does not reflect the current situation.

                                  As I have written before -- the idea that "time does not pass" is
                                  simply not borne out by reality.

                                  In Christ
                                  Fr. John R. Shaw
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