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5948Re: Interview with Vl. Mark

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  • vkozyreff
    Jun 21, 2002
      Dear List,

      Elisabeth mentions the story of the Publican and the Pharisee.

      "To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked
      down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10"Two men went up
      to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
      11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[1] himself: 'God, I thank
      you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or
      even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth
      of all I get.'
      13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look
      up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a
      sinner.'
      14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home
      justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be
      humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

      I do not think the parable applies here. We are not proud not to be
      like the Sergianists. We do not expect any reward. We just look for
      God. Is He with those who betrayed Christ or with those who gave
      their life for Him? We are humbly obeying the Church. The Sergianists
      do not believe in Christ, since they believe and claim that His
      Church needed the intervention of Satan (lies, heresy) to be saved.

      Moreover, they expelled from their "Church" those who gave their
      lives for Christ's Truth. The parable does not give us as an example
      to follow a Publican who gives to the executioner those who
      acknowledge Christ before men, neither a Publican who claims this is
      the right thing to do. What saves man is his faith in Christ.

      Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
      (Luke 7:49-51)

      The choice is not between the MP and us. We are not part of the
      equation. The choice is between the two ways Russians faced the
      communist persecutions.
      - the Sergianists who betrayed Christ by claiming He needed a hand
      from the devil to rescue his Church and
      - those who acknowledged Christ in front of men and gave their life
      for Christ. That is the millions of martyrs that the Sergianists have
      insulted as "counterrevolutionaries" and who indeed have saved the
      Church by their faith in Christ.

      This being said, we must remember that nobody is obligated to be a
      martyr and that anything can be obtained from anybody by torture. So
      I do not condemn those who were not strong enough to resist (I,
      sinner, would not have resisted), but we may say the stand taken by
      Vl Sergii was wrong, even if obtained by torture.

      Let me plead for Ms Roznianskaya. She is not infamous. She certainly
      did commit mistakes, of which we all suffered. We will be judged as
      we judge. I know I will need mercy on the day of the last judgement,
      that is why I insist here. We must not insult her. As you know, she
      is now co-operating with the Synod about V. Vitaly's return, which
      leads to believe that she confessed and was already pardoned by God.
      Pardoned, that is as though the sin that we committed never took
      place.
      "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a
      stone at her." (John 8:6-8)"

      In Christ's love,

      Vladimir Kozyreff

      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@h...> wrote:
      > Dear Vladimir and Irina,
      >
      > With all due respect, I'd prefer to err on the side of "dushevnost"
      > then!
      >
      > Christ gave us the story of the Publican and the Pharisee. The
      > Publican, by all standards, was WRONG, unworthy, lived his life not
      > according to the doctrines. Yet he sought God's mercy, in the face
      of
      > all his errors, and indeed, he received it.
      >
      > Now the Pharisee did everything right, by the book. And he expected
      > God's mercy as his reward, and was proud that he wasn't like the
      > Sergianists, oops I mean Publicans.
      >
      > As for references to the retired Metropolitan's acts against
      Vladyka
      > Mark, anyone who was around Synod in those days and saw Vladyka
      > regularly can attest to his temper and his penchant for tossing off
      > punishments on clergy (how many priests were 'forbidden to serve'
      > because they irritated his Eminence. He even tried -- uncanonically
      > and without success! -- to forbid Bishop Gabriel from serving once,
      > because Bishop Gabriel had had a tiff with the now infamous Ms.
      > Rozniansky.) With all due respect, by the late 90s, Met. Vitaly
      often
      > seemed to forget that he "ain't the Pope", with infallability or
      total
      > carte blanche. He should have retired gracefully long ago. Then we
      > would not have this mess today.
      >
      > Finally, when one mentions predictions of schism: just think: who
      are
      > the schismatics here? Poor Vladyka Vitaly at one point said he
      > was tired and just wanted to retire, but I guess he somehow didn't
      > deserve a retirement of 'blazhenstvo' because now he's being used
      to
      > give some tenuous credibility to a group of... yup, SCHISMATICS. If
      > they truly loved and respected him, they would let the man live out
      > his last years in peace. And I am sure that if Vladyka were in his
      > right and once sharp-mind, he'd have a few punishments to scatter
      > around now...
      >
      >
      > I will be unable to continue this debate in coming days. I do
      > sincerely wish everyone a blessed Feast of the Trinity.
      >
      > In Christ's love,
      > Elizabeth
      >
      > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
      > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
      > > Dear Elisabeth,
      > >
      > > I am afraid that you constantly make the same error: your
      compassion
      > to
      > > people whom we like (the believers in Russia or in Serbia in this
      > case),
      > > makes you turn a
      > > blind eye to what threatens them most: heresy. You think that you
      > are right,
      > > because
      > > you perceive your attitude as a sign of love and humility (the
      beam
      > and the
      > > splinter).
      > > However, you erroneously put your "dushevnost'" (human
      compassion)
      > before
      > > your "dukhovnost'"
      > > (spirituality, that is the Holy Spirit in us).
      > > For an orthodox, nothing can be thought of outside the
      > > limits imposed by the "dukhovnost'", that is nothing can happen
      > outside the
      > > limits of the
      > > Truth. Everything is second to that. Loving God imposes absolute
      > respect for
      > > His truth, that is excludes totally any concession about his
      Truth.
      > Failure
      > > to
      > > respect this principle generates heresies like sergianism and
      > ecumenism.
      > > As you know, the Faith is essential in orthodoxy. "In matters of
      > > faith, no concession can be made" (St John, Chrysostome). In
      > Judaism, people
      > > do not have to believe anything, the Latino-catholic schism
      > originated in an
      > > adulteration of the creed,
      > > which was pushed to extremes in protestantism. Orthodox believers
      > are the
      > > last faithful.
      > > The purity of our faith is our most beloved heritage. Our most
      > sacred duty
      > > is to preserve it.
      > > This infuriates Satan, who has recently increased his pressure on
      > us.
      > >
      > > Your attitude relates to the "political correctness" of the
      world.
      > The world
      > > is agnostic, believes that you have no right to claim that you
      hold
      > the
      > > truth, or that there is only one truth. Universal tolerance is
      thus
      > the
      > > natural conclusion of such a concept. If your neighbour believes
      > differently
      > > from you, you must tolerate this and leave him alone, as a sign
      of
      > respect.
      > > Orthodoxy is totally at odds with this thinking.
      > >
      > > As an orthodox believer, you should understand that the position
      of
      > the
      > > Church is totally different. Our love and compassion for our
      > brothers does
      > > not translate in leaving them alone in their error for fear of
      > offending
      > > them, on the contrary:
      > >
      > > 1. We love our Serbian and Russian brothers very much because
      > they are
      > > particularly close to us, because we owe them so much and because
      > they have
      > > endured so much physical, moral and spiritual damage. in our
      parish,
      > since
      > > the NATO aggression, we constantly pray for Serbia, although we
      know
      > that
      > > the Serbian Church is a member of the WCC.
      > > 2. For that very reason, we care for them and we want to help
      > them to
      > > overcome the heresy, which is the most terrible aggression they
      > > are enduring. It is not a shortcoming of theirs, for which we
      must
      > show
      > > understanding,
      > > nor is it a sin that we must not denounce, being sinners
      ourselves.
      > > This heresy is not them, it is foreign to them, it is a poison
      from
      > the
      > > devil
      > > that kills them. Attacking the heresy is not attacking them but
      > saving them.
      > > 3. Identifying the heresy of the MP and of the Serbian Church is
      > not an
      > > aggression against the believers that are in error. On the
      contrary,
      > in
      > > denouncing the heresies of Sergianism and ecumenism, our Church
      is
      > like a
      > > physician who makes the diagnosis of an illness that must be
      cured
      > if those
      > > beloved Russians and Serbs are to be saved.
      > > 4. Our faith in our Church, who has identified and denounced the
      > heresy
      > > in the MP and the Serbian Church, is not an expression of pride
      but
      > one of
      > > humility and obedience to God. We have no doubt whatsoever that
      our
      > Church
      > > is right
      > > and that the heretics are wrong. We are not tolerant to heresy,
      and
      > we
      > > believe that there is only one Truth: the truth that has been
      taught
      > by our
      > > Church.
      > > 5. If we fall into heresy (God forbid), we expect that we will
      be
      > helped out
      > > too.
      > > If I have a beam in my eye, I pray God that my brothers and
      sisters
      > > in the faith help me getting rid of it. Being concerned about the
      > heresy
      > > in which our brothers have fallen is obeying God and being better
      > > Christians than not caring about it. Anyway, we may not have
      > communion with
      > > heretics, as it makes us heretics and separates us from God, who
      is
      > the
      > > person we love most, more than any human.
      > >
      > > In Christ's love,
      > > Vladimir Kozyreff
      > > -----Message d'origine-----
      > > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
      > > Envoye : mardi 18 juin 2002 12:03
      > > A : orthodox-synod@y...
      > > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
      > >
      > >
      > > Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO "intervention" (i.e. act
      of
      > > War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox
      people
      > of
      > > Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic) terrorist Albanians
      > has
      > > been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of their Serb
      > victims,
      > > so that they cannot proerly form their hands to cross themselves!
      > >
      > > Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was similarly and just
      as
      > > ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to serve in the
      SF
      > > cathedral several years back.
      > >
      > > Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo, the important
      and
      > > salvationary role the Serb church played in protecting their
      > Orthodox
      > > brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our most esteemed
      > > hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St. John of
      > > Shanghai/S.F.).
      > >
      > > To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be the most
      pious
      > of
      > > people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren and among the
      > > closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot understand this
      > > desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find fault.
      > >
      > > "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy brother's
      eye,
      > but
      > > perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?... Thou
      hypocrite,
      > > cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou
      > see
      > > clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy brother's eye."
      > >
      > > In Christ's love,
      > > Elizabeth
      > >
      > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
      > > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
      > > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark
      describe a
      > > very
      > > > knowledgeable and respected person.
      > > >
      > > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he
      > looks
      > > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
      > > position.
      > > >
      > > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox
      Church
      > > Abroad of
      > > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia "
      describes
      > a
      > > four-day
      > > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
      > 8/21.
      > > The
      > > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
      > > co-celebrated
      > > > with Serbian priests.
      > > >
      > > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
      > > Churches.
      > > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983.
      > How
      > > can we
      > > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
      > with
      > > the
      > > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
      > > relative to
      > > > our Church's.
      > > >
      > > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the
      > line
      > > of the
      > > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
      > > Church,
      > > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
      > > obedience
      > > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
      > > confuse time?
      > > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or
      not?
      > > If not,
      > > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
      > > >
      > > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
      > priests
      > > from
      > > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having
      > been
      > > heard by
      > > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except
      > that
      > > they did
      > > > not obey.
      > > >
      > > > In Christ,
      > > >
      > > > Vladimir Kozyreff
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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