5946Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
- Jun 20, 2002Dear Elisabeth,
Regarding the temptation to prefer one's brothers and sisters to God,
here is what Christ told us:
"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of
me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy
of me; (Matthew 10:36-38).
There can be no choice between loving God and loving one's neighbour,
since no love to God can exist without love to the neighbour.
There is a constant confusion between accusing the neighbour of
committing a sin, which is not what we should do, and recognising
that his action is bad, which is what we should do. If you see me
commiting a crime, you must proclaim that you disapprove what I did
and that what I committed is a crime. Doing this is not sinning by
pride and is not claiming a reward for not committing the crime that
Stating that the Sergianists are wrong is not committing a sin of
pride either. Will you accuse the Synod of committing a sin in
denouncing their betrayal of God? This has nothing to do with the
parable of the tax collector and the Pharisee.
The Pharisees have crucified Christ, as have the Sergianists. We hold
that separating oneself from God and His martyrs, as the Sergianists
did, is wrong. We may not have communion with those who crucified the
martyrs and still claim that it was right to do so. Refusing this
communion is not being a Pharisee but being a humble servant of God
and doing what he has commanded us to do.
-- In orthodox-synod@y..., "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@h...> wrote:
> Dear Vladimir and Irina,of
> With all due respect, I'd prefer to err on the side of "dushevnost"
> Christ gave us the story of the Publican and the Pharisee. The
> Publican, by all standards, was WRONG, unworthy, lived his life not
> according to the doctrines. Yet he sought God's mercy, in the face
> all his errors, and indeed, he received it.Vladyka
> Now the Pharisee did everything right, by the book. And he expected
> God's mercy as his reward, and was proud that he wasn't like the
> Sergianists, oops I mean Publicans.
> As for references to the retired Metropolitan's acts against
> Mark, anyone who was around Synod in those days and saw Vladykaoften
> regularly can attest to his temper and his penchant for tossing off
> punishments on clergy (how many priests were 'forbidden to serve'
> because they irritated his Eminence. He even tried -- uncanonically
> and without success! -- to forbid Bishop Gabriel from serving once,
> because Bishop Gabriel had had a tiff with the now infamous Ms.
> Rozniansky.) With all due respect, by the late 90s, Met. Vitaly
> seemed to forget that he "ain't the Pope", with infallability ortotal
> carte blanche. He should have retired gracefully long ago. Then weare
> would not have this mess today.
> Finally, when one mentions predictions of schism: just think: who
> the schismatics here? Poor Vladyka Vitaly at one point said heto
> was tired and just wanted to retire, but I guess he somehow didn't
> deserve a retirement of 'blazhenstvo' because now he's being used
> give some tenuous credibility to a group of... yup, SCHISMATICS. Ifcompassion
> they truly loved and respected him, they would let the man live out
> his last years in peace. And I am sure that if Vladyka were in his
> right and once sharp-mind, he'd have a few punishments to scatter
> around now...
> I will be unable to continue this debate in coming days. I do
> sincerely wish everyone a blessed Feast of the Trinity.
> In Christ's love,
> --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
> <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
> > Dear Elisabeth,
> > I am afraid that you constantly make the same error: your
> > people whom we like (the believers in Russia or in Serbia in this
> > makes you turn a
> > blind eye to what threatens them most: heresy. You think that you
> are right,
> > because
> > you perceive your attitude as a sign of love and humility (the
> and thecompassion)
> > splinter).
> > However, you erroneously put your "dushevnost'" (human
> > your "dukhovnost'"
> > (spirituality, that is the Holy Spirit in us).
> > For an orthodox, nothing can be thought of outside the
> > limits imposed by the "dukhovnost'", that is nothing can happen
> outside the
> > limits of the
> > Truth. Everything is second to that. Loving God imposes absolute
> respect for
> > His truth, that is excludes totally any concession about his
> > to
> > respect this principle generates heresies like sergianism and
> > As you know, the Faith is essential in orthodoxy. "In matters of
> > faith, no concession can be made" (St John, Chrysostome). In
> Judaism, people
> > do not have to believe anything, the Latino-catholic schism
> originated in an
> > adulteration of the creed,
> > which was pushed to extremes in protestantism. Orthodox believers
> are the
> > last faithful.
> > The purity of our faith is our most beloved heritage. Our most
> sacred duty
> > is to preserve it.
> > This infuriates Satan, who has recently increased his pressure on
> > Your attitude relates to the "political correctness" of the
> The worldhold
> > is agnostic, believes that you have no right to claim that you
> > truth, or that there is only one truth. Universal tolerance is
> > natural conclusion of such a concept. If your neighbour believes
> > from you, you must tolerate this and leave him alone, as a sign
> > Orthodoxy is totally at odds with this thinking.
> > As an orthodox believer, you should understand that the position
> > Church is totally different. Our love and compassion for our
> brothers does
> > not translate in leaving them alone in their error for fear of
> > them, on the contrary:
> > 1. We love our Serbian and Russian brothers very much because
> they are
> > particularly close to us, because we owe them so much and because
> they have
> > endured so much physical, moral and spiritual damage. in our
> > the NATO aggression, we constantly pray for Serbia, although we
> > the Serbian Church is a member of the WCC.
> > 2. For that very reason, we care for them and we want to help
> them to
> > overcome the heresy, which is the most terrible aggression they
> > are enduring. It is not a shortcoming of theirs, for which we
> > understanding,
> > nor is it a sin that we must not denounce, being sinners
> > This heresy is not them, it is foreign to them, it is a poisonfrom
> > devil
> > that kills them. Attacking the heresy is not attacking them but
> saving them.
> > 3. Identifying the heresy of the MP and of the Serbian Church is
> not an
> > aggression against the believers that are in error. On the
> > denouncing the heresies of Sergianism and ecumenism, our Church
> like acured
> > physician who makes the diagnosis of an illness that must be
> if thosebut
> > beloved Russians and Serbs are to be saved.
> > 4. Our faith in our Church, who has identified and denounced the
> > in the MP and the Serbian Church, is not an expression of pride
> one ofour
> > humility and obedience to God. We have no doubt whatsoever that
> > is right
> > and that the heretics are wrong. We are not tolerant to heresy,
> > believe that there is only one Truth: the truth that has been
> by ourbe
> > Church.
> > 5. If we fall into heresy (God forbid), we expect that we will
> helped outsisters
> > too.
> > If I have a beam in my eye, I pray God that my brothers and
> > in the faith help me getting rid of it. Being concerned about theis
> > in which our brothers have fallen is obeying God and being better
> > Christians than not caring about it. Anyway, we may not have
> communion with
> > heretics, as it makes us heretics and separates us from God, who
> > person we love most, more than any human.
> > In Christ's love,
> > Vladimir Kozyreff
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
> > Envoye : mardi 18 juin 2002 12:03
> > A : orthodox-synod@y...
> > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
> > Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO "intervention" (i.e. act
> > War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodoxpeople
> > Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic) terrorist Albanians
> > been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of their Serb
> > so that they cannot proerly form their hands to cross themselves!
> > Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was similarly and just
> > ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to serve in theSF
> > cathedral several years back.and
> > Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo, the important
> > salvationary role the Serb church played in protecting theirpious
> > brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our most esteemed
> > hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St. John of
> > Shanghai/S.F.).
> > To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be the most
> > people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren and among the
> > closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot understand this
> > desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find fault.
> > "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy brother's
> > perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?... Thou
> > cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thoudescribe a
> > clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy brother's eye."
> > In Christ's love,
> > Elizabeth
> > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
> > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
> > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark
> > veryChurch
> > > knowledgeable and respected person.
> > >
> > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he
> > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
> > position.
> > >
> > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox
> > Abroad ofdescribes
> > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia "
> > four-day
> > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
> > The
> > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
> > co-celebrated
> > > with Serbian priests.
> > >
> > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
> > Churches.
> > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983.
> > can we
> > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
> > the
> > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
> > relative to
> > > our Church's.
> > >
> > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the
> > of the
> > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
> > Church,
> > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
> > obedience
> > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
> > confuse time?
> > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or
> > If not,
> > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
> > >
> > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
> > from
> > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having
> > heard by
> > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except
> > they did
> > > not obey.
> > >
> > > In Christ,
> > >
> > > Vladimir Kozyreff
> > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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