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5940Re: Interview with Vl. Mark

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  • boulia_1
    Jun 19, 2002
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      Dear Vladimir and Irina,

      With all due respect, I'd prefer to err on the side of "dushevnost"

      Christ gave us the story of the Publican and the Pharisee. The
      Publican, by all standards, was WRONG, unworthy, lived his life not
      according to the doctrines. Yet he sought God's mercy, in the face of
      all his errors, and indeed, he received it.

      Now the Pharisee did everything right, by the book. And he expected
      God's mercy as his reward, and was proud that he wasn't like the
      Sergianists, oops I mean Publicans.

      As for references to the retired Metropolitan's acts against Vladyka
      Mark, anyone who was around Synod in those days and saw Vladyka
      regularly can attest to his temper and his penchant for tossing off
      punishments on clergy (how many priests were 'forbidden to serve'
      because they irritated his Eminence. He even tried -- uncanonically
      and without success! -- to forbid Bishop Gabriel from serving once,
      because Bishop Gabriel had had a tiff with the now infamous Ms.
      Rozniansky.) With all due respect, by the late 90s, Met. Vitaly often
      seemed to forget that he "ain't the Pope", with infallability or total
      carte blanche. He should have retired gracefully long ago. Then we
      would not have this mess today.

      Finally, when one mentions predictions of schism: just think: who are
      the schismatics here? Poor Vladyka Vitaly at one point said he
      was tired and just wanted to retire, but I guess he somehow didn't
      deserve a retirement of 'blazhenstvo' because now he's being used to
      give some tenuous credibility to a group of... yup, SCHISMATICS. If
      they truly loved and respected him, they would let the man live out
      his last years in peace. And I am sure that if Vladyka were in his
      right and once sharp-mind, he'd have a few punishments to scatter
      around now...

      I will be unable to continue this debate in coming days. I do
      sincerely wish everyone a blessed Feast of the Trinity.

      In Christ's love,

      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
      <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
      > Dear Elisabeth,
      > I am afraid that you constantly make the same error: your compassion
      > people whom we like (the believers in Russia or in Serbia in this
      > makes you turn a
      > blind eye to what threatens them most: heresy. You think that you
      are right,
      > because
      > you perceive your attitude as a sign of love and humility (the beam
      and the
      > splinter).
      > However, you erroneously put your "dushevnost'" (human compassion)
      > your "dukhovnost'"
      > (spirituality, that is the Holy Spirit in us).
      > For an orthodox, nothing can be thought of outside the
      > limits imposed by the "dukhovnost'", that is nothing can happen
      outside the
      > limits of the
      > Truth. Everything is second to that. Loving God imposes absolute
      respect for
      > His truth, that is excludes totally any concession about his Truth.
      > to
      > respect this principle generates heresies like sergianism and
      > As you know, the Faith is essential in orthodoxy. "In matters of
      > faith, no concession can be made" (St John, Chrysostome). In
      Judaism, people
      > do not have to believe anything, the Latino-catholic schism
      originated in an
      > adulteration of the creed,
      > which was pushed to extremes in protestantism. Orthodox believers
      are the
      > last faithful.
      > The purity of our faith is our most beloved heritage. Our most
      sacred duty
      > is to preserve it.
      > This infuriates Satan, who has recently increased his pressure on
      > Your attitude relates to the "political correctness" of the world.
      The world
      > is agnostic, believes that you have no right to claim that you hold
      > truth, or that there is only one truth. Universal tolerance is thus
      > natural conclusion of such a concept. If your neighbour believes
      > from you, you must tolerate this and leave him alone, as a sign of
      > Orthodoxy is totally at odds with this thinking.
      > As an orthodox believer, you should understand that the position of
      > Church is totally different. Our love and compassion for our
      brothers does
      > not translate in leaving them alone in their error for fear of
      > them, on the contrary:
      > 1. We love our Serbian and Russian brothers very much because
      they are
      > particularly close to us, because we owe them so much and because
      they have
      > endured so much physical, moral and spiritual damage. in our parish,
      > the NATO aggression, we constantly pray for Serbia, although we know
      > the Serbian Church is a member of the WCC.
      > 2. For that very reason, we care for them and we want to help
      them to
      > overcome the heresy, which is the most terrible aggression they
      > are enduring. It is not a shortcoming of theirs, for which we must
      > understanding,
      > nor is it a sin that we must not denounce, being sinners ourselves.
      > This heresy is not them, it is foreign to them, it is a poison from
      > devil
      > that kills them. Attacking the heresy is not attacking them but
      saving them.
      > 3. Identifying the heresy of the MP and of the Serbian Church is
      not an
      > aggression against the believers that are in error. On the contrary,
      > denouncing the heresies of Sergianism and ecumenism, our Church is
      like a
      > physician who makes the diagnosis of an illness that must be cured
      if those
      > beloved Russians and Serbs are to be saved.
      > 4. Our faith in our Church, who has identified and denounced the
      > in the MP and the Serbian Church, is not an expression of pride but
      one of
      > humility and obedience to God. We have no doubt whatsoever that our
      > is right
      > and that the heretics are wrong. We are not tolerant to heresy, and
      > believe that there is only one Truth: the truth that has been taught
      by our
      > Church.
      > 5. If we fall into heresy (God forbid), we expect that we will be
      helped out
      > too.
      > If I have a beam in my eye, I pray God that my brothers and sisters
      > in the faith help me getting rid of it. Being concerned about the
      > in which our brothers have fallen is obeying God and being better
      > Christians than not caring about it. Anyway, we may not have
      communion with
      > heretics, as it makes us heretics and separates us from God, who is
      > person we love most, more than any human.
      > In Christ's love,
      > Vladimir Kozyreff
      > -----Message d'origine-----
      > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
      > Envoye : mardi 18 juin 2002 12:03
      > A : orthodox-synod@y...
      > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
      > Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO "intervention" (i.e. act of
      > War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox people
      > Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic) terrorist Albanians
      > been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of their Serb
      > so that they cannot proerly form their hands to cross themselves!
      > Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was similarly and just as
      > ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to serve in the SF
      > cathedral several years back.
      > Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo, the important and
      > salvationary role the Serb church played in protecting their
      > brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our most esteemed
      > hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St. John of
      > Shanghai/S.F.).
      > To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be the most pious
      > people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren and among the
      > closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot understand this
      > desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find fault.
      > "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy brother's eye,
      > perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?... Thou hypocrite,
      > cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou
      > clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy brother's eye."
      > In Christ's love,
      > Elizabeth
      > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
      > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
      > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
      > very
      > > knowledgeable and respected person.
      > >
      > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he
      > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
      > position.
      > >
      > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
      > Abroad of
      > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes
      > four-day
      > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
      > The
      > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
      > co-celebrated
      > > with Serbian priests.
      > >
      > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
      > Churches.
      > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983.
      > can we
      > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
      > the
      > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
      > relative to
      > > our Church's.
      > >
      > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the
      > of the
      > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
      > Church,
      > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
      > obedience
      > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
      > confuse time?
      > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
      > If not,
      > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
      > >
      > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
      > from
      > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having
      > heard by
      > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except
      > they did
      > > not obey.
      > >
      > > In Christ,
      > >
      > > Vladimir Kozyreff
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