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5908RE: [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark

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  • vladimir kozyreff
    Jun 15, 2002
      Here for example is what that well known defender of Orthodoxy, St. Maximus
      the Confessor, said in the 7th century: "I do not desire heretics to be
      tormented and do not rejoice in their evil - God forbid! But I rejoice the
      more so in their conversion... I have not so far lost my reason as to value
      mercilessness above love for others...

      But despite this I say that heretics cannot be helped by confirming them in
      their insane beliefs, here one has to be blunt and uncompromising.
      For I call it not love, but hatred for one's fellow men and a falling away
      Divine love when anyone confirms heretics in their errors, leading to
      the inevitable perdition of these people."

      This is why the ROCA has never confirmed the MP in its errors by
      recognizing its "lawfulness" and "fullness," the "grace of its Church life,"
      or that it is supposedly a "part" of the one Russian Church, for the
      perdition of whatever is still alive in the MP.

      Archpriest Lev Lebedeff
      Great Lent 1998

      -----Message d'origine-----
      De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@...]
      Envoye : vendredi 14 juin 2002 18:27
      A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
      Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark

      Dear Vladimir and lurkers,

      To reponse to your well-made points and respected point of view:

      > It is Vl Mark who uses the term "stalinist". If, as he says,
      > "there are stalinist elements in the MP", the most obvious of them
      must be
      > the ex-KGB officers and their
      > head in particular. They are the latest people with which we may
      > relationship
      > as long as they do not clearly renounce their past.

      OK, but who is capable of convincing them to 'renounce' the past
      (something toward which huge strides were made by the MP's
      glorification, at long last, of the New Martyrs)? We cannot have our
      leaders hide their heads in the sand and pretend that the huge MP
      doesn't exist!

      Let us not forget that today's adults in Russia ALL grew up in a
      society where history was distorted and re-written outright. Children
      were raised from a small age to NOT believe in God, indoctrinated by
      the poisonous Marxist-Leninist ideas. That there is any life and
      spirit in the MP Church at all (and there IS, you cannot deny it!), is
      already a MIRACLE.

      If we may not develop relationships with these people and their
      leaders, then WHO will show the way to all these people who were
      indoctrinated in a wrong, sinful way? The Baptists and Catholics and
      the Salvation Army "soldiers" that have tried to flood Russia? Or
      perhaps Islam?

      Who preserved the faith, the tradition, the Church? ROCOR DID, with
      the long-term goal being to return to Russia, with the Church
      intact. Thus it is the ROCOR's absoluter duty, placed upon us
      generations ago by St. Tikhon, to indeed communicate with the MP,
      now that it is even possible. We must never give up in this mission,
      as frustrating as it may sometimes be! Our leaders must LEAD, and this
      includes engaging the powers that be of the MP (whether we like them
      or not) in dialogue; we must pray for the Holy Spirit to
      continue to provide guidance!

      >... So please do not condemn me for attitudes that you imagined
      > ground.

      I stand humbly corrected, and sincerely apologise for ascribing to you
      what I have witnessed in others.

      > Anyway, I persist with Vl Mark in calling the MP stalinist, because
      it was
      > created by Stalin. It is not a hyperbole
      > to call "stalinist" a thing that originates in Stalin. As such, the
      > cannot be part of the Church.

      If that is so, then we must struggle to save our wayward brethren.

      > Here, I think we should distance ourselves from Vl Mark. I cannot
      > that the Synod
      > allows his declarations to the press, as they produce only
      confusion. The
      > Church
      > and the bishops should be clear. It is their holy mission.

      I would like to remind you that, in the original interview, Vl. Mark
      was exceedingly clear in stating which ideas are his own personal
      opinion, and that his Brethren may differ with him... he deserves
      credit for this forthrightness and for his acknowedgement of the
      controversial nature of some of his personal opinions!

      > The MP has been the temple of compromission with evil and has been
      > that this
      > compromission saved the Church in the times of persecution. This
      > is an outrage to the martyrs,
      > is not acceptable for a Christian and is heretical. Promoters of
      > cannot be part of the Church.

      This previous statement seems to contradict the next one; I think
      calling someone a heretic is pretty much a condemnation:

      > I do not condemn anybody, not even the ex KGB officers. I just
      > that the MP as an organisation cannot be part of the Church. Who
      told you
      > ever that this
      > was a condemnation of the uninformed people that are being lead by
      > sergianists?
      > Again, we do not condemn anybody. We just condemn the heresy of

      In what Canon is "Sergianism" named a +heresy+? "Heresy: is a pretty
      strong term, with specific ecclesiastical meaning, if I am not
      mistaken. If the MP is heretical and graceless, why has ROCOR always
      accepted laypeople, clergy and even Bishops who came to us from MP
      without re-baptising them or re-doing their ordinations? I am
      sorry to bring up all these well-worn arguments again, but I think it
      is wrong to bandy around words like 'heresy' as if you were saying
      "four" regarding 2+2...

      I realise my statements here put me at the risk of sounding less
      critical of the MP than I in fact am. I have plenty of criticism for
      them, and I don't believe they are any where near ready for
      'reunification' with ROCOR... but I still think it is important for
      our leaders to be wise and visionary and to work with them toward that
      goal. Vast Russia -- the homeland of our fore-fathers, for which much
      of our ancestors' blood was shed -- depends on us for this!

      I wish you all a pleasant an peaceful weekend.

      In the ascended Christ,

      > -----Message d'origine-----
      > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
      > Envoye : jeudi 13 juin 2002 17:04
      > A : orthodox-synod@y...
      > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
      > And now that I have posted the questions, I will offer only these
      > responses:
      > to QUESTION 1:
      > There is one terrible thing in these discussions: No one is
      > the real questions - why call them "off-base"?
      > I personally do not feel qualified to answer the questions. I don't
      > think they're off base (as I mentioned before, I think people have
      > honest curiosity and do want to know the answers). But I for one am
      > not going to start putting words in Bishops' mouths, or, worse,
      > words' OUT of Bishops' mouths out of context!
      > Regarding : "Being a member of the Russian Orthodox Church
      > OUTSIDE RUSSIA as he states, it looks rather strange that he found
      > the level of the curriculum in Jordanville not to his
      > expectations."...
      > With all due respect to Jordanville, it has had its ups and downs
      > over the years, I am sure... and I know of a few devout
      > (ROCOR, no less) Orthodox ivy league professors (slavic studies) who
      > have watched the output from the seminarians over the years, and can
      > attest that the quality from a scholarly standpoint has not been
      > consistently fantastic over the years. But, again, that is MY
      > and only Vl. Mark would be able to give HIS.
      > As for all the anti-MP rhetoric and bandying about of the label
      > "Stalinism" (talk about hysterical hyperbole!), I personally cannot
      > agree to condemn every priest, parishioner and prayerful person
      > looking for salvation in the houses of God in Russia, even if they
      > headed by people with questionable motives. The only way to solve
      > issue is for ROCOR, the perpetual defender of Russian Orthodoxy, the
      > inheritor of St. Tikhon's mantiya, the church guided by its
      > for all these years, to provide the example of righteousness and
      > unity, and the only way to do THAT is to open our hearts and
      > to them...
      > Sadly, thanks to various 'iskushenii', our own troubles are only
      > weakening our once rock-solid moral ground.
      > I will agree with the evident lack of "Christian love" ... and I
      > respect questions, but not when the questioners think they already
      > know they answers and don't want to be told otherwise, which seems
      > be the case all too often.
      > And that is all MY opinion. I wish I were more qualified to answer
      > some of the issues, and I truly find all the hostility and division
      > heartbreaking.
      > Forgive me for bluntness, and for any insults, all unintended.
      > Sincerely, in the Ascended Christ,
      > Elizabeth
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