5908RE: [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
- Jun 15, 2002Here for example is what that well known defender of Orthodoxy, St. Maximus
the Confessor, said in the 7th century: "I do not desire heretics to be
tormented and do not rejoice in their evil - God forbid! But I rejoice the
more so in their conversion... I have not so far lost my reason as to value
mercilessness above love for others...
But despite this I say that heretics cannot be helped by confirming them in
their insane beliefs, here one has to be blunt and uncompromising.
For I call it not love, but hatred for one's fellow men and a falling away
Divine love when anyone confirms heretics in their errors, leading to
the inevitable perdition of these people."
This is why the ROCA has never confirmed the MP in its errors by
recognizing its "lawfulness" and "fullness," the "grace of its Church life,"
or that it is supposedly a "part" of the one Russian Church, for the
perdition of whatever is still alive in the MP.
Archpriest Lev Lebedeff
Great Lent 1998
De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@...]
Envoye : vendredi 14 juin 2002 18:27
A : firstname.lastname@example.org
Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
Dear Vladimir and lurkers,
To reponse to your well-made points and respected point of view:
> It is Vl Mark who uses the term "stalinist". If, as he says,
> "there are stalinist elements in the MP", the most obvious of them
> the ex-KGB officers and theirdevelop
> head in particular. They are the latest people with which we may
> relationshipOK, but who is capable of convincing them to 'renounce' the past
> as long as they do not clearly renounce their past.
(something toward which huge strides were made by the MP's
glorification, at long last, of the New Martyrs)? We cannot have our
leaders hide their heads in the sand and pretend that the huge MP
Let us not forget that today's adults in Russia ALL grew up in a
society where history was distorted and re-written outright. Children
were raised from a small age to NOT believe in God, indoctrinated by
the poisonous Marxist-Leninist ideas. That there is any life and
spirit in the MP Church at all (and there IS, you cannot deny it!), is
already a MIRACLE.
If we may not develop relationships with these people and their
leaders, then WHO will show the way to all these people who were
indoctrinated in a wrong, sinful way? The Baptists and Catholics and
the Salvation Army "soldiers" that have tried to flood Russia? Or
Who preserved the faith, the tradition, the Church? ROCOR DID, with
the long-term goal being to return to Russia, with the Church
intact. Thus it is the ROCOR's absoluter duty, placed upon us
generations ago by St. Tikhon, to indeed communicate with the MP,
now that it is even possible. We must never give up in this mission,
as frustrating as it may sometimes be! Our leaders must LEAD, and this
includes engaging the powers that be of the MP (whether we like them
or not) in dialogue; we must pray for the Holy Spirit to
continue to provide guidance!
>... So please do not condemn me for attitudes that you imaginedwithout
> ground.I stand humbly corrected, and sincerely apologise for ascribing to you
what I have witnessed in others.
> Anyway, I persist with Vl Mark in calling the MP stalinist, because
> created by Stalin. It is not a hyperboleMP
> to call "stalinist" a thing that originates in Stalin. As such, the
> cannot be part of the Church.If that is so, then we must struggle to save our wayward brethren.
> Here, I think we should distance ourselves from Vl Mark. I cannotunderstand
> that the Synodconfusion. The
> allows his declarations to the press, as they produce only
> ChurchI would like to remind you that, in the original interview, Vl. Mark
> and the bishops should be clear. It is their holy mission.
was exceedingly clear in stating which ideas are his own personal
opinion, and that his Brethren may differ with him... he deserves
credit for this forthrightness and for his acknowedgement of the
controversial nature of some of his personal opinions!
> The MP has been the temple of compromission with evil and has beenclaiming
> that thisstatement
> compromission saved the Church in the times of persecution. This
> is an outrage to the martyrs,heresy
> is not acceptable for a Christian and is heretical. Promoters of
> cannot be part of the Church.This previous statement seems to contradict the next one; I think
calling someone a heretic is pretty much a condemnation:
> I do not condemn anybody, not even the ex KGB officers. I just
> that the MP as an organisation cannot be part of the Church. Whotold you
> ever that thisSergianism.
> was a condemnation of the uninformed people that are being lead by
> Again, we do not condemn anybody. We just condemn the heresy of
In what Canon is "Sergianism" named a +heresy+? "Heresy: is a pretty
strong term, with specific ecclesiastical meaning, if I am not
mistaken. If the MP is heretical and graceless, why has ROCOR always
accepted laypeople, clergy and even Bishops who came to us from MP
without re-baptising them or re-doing their ordinations? I am
sorry to bring up all these well-worn arguments again, but I think it
is wrong to bandy around words like 'heresy' as if you were saying
"four" regarding 2+2...
I realise my statements here put me at the risk of sounding less
critical of the MP than I in fact am. I have plenty of criticism for
them, and I don't believe they are any where near ready for
'reunification' with ROCOR... but I still think it is important for
our leaders to be wise and visionary and to work with them toward that
goal. Vast Russia -- the homeland of our fore-fathers, for which much
of our ancestors' blood was shed -- depends on us for this!
I wish you all a pleasant an peaceful weekend.
In the ascended Christ,
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
> Envoye : jeudi 13 juin 2002 17:04
> A : orthodox-synod@y...
> Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
> And now that I have posted the questions, I will offer only these
> to QUESTION 1:
> There is one terrible thing in these discussions: No one is
> the real questions - why call them "off-base"?taking
> I personally do not feel qualified to answer the questions. I don't
> think they're off base (as I mentioned before, I think people have
> honest curiosity and do want to know the answers). But I for one am
> not going to start putting words in Bishops' mouths, or, worse,
> words' OUT of Bishops' mouths out of context!opinion,
> Regarding : "Being a member of the Russian Orthodox Church
> OUTSIDE RUSSIA as he states, it looks rather strange that he found
> the level of the curriculum in Jordanville not to his
> With all due respect to Jordanville, it has had its ups and downs
> over the years, I am sure... and I know of a few devout
> (ROCOR, no less) Orthodox ivy league professors (slavic studies) who
> have watched the output from the seminarians over the years, and can
> attest that the quality from a scholarly standpoint has not been
> consistently fantastic over the years. But, again, that is MY
> and only Vl. Mark would be able to give HIS.are
> As for all the anti-MP rhetoric and bandying about of the label
> "Stalinism" (talk about hysterical hyperbole!), I personally cannot
> agree to condemn every priest, parishioner and prayerful person
> looking for salvation in the houses of God in Russia, even if they
> headed by people with questionable motives. The only way to solvethat
> issue is for ROCOR, the perpetual defender of Russian Orthodoxy, theHodigitria
> inheritor of St. Tikhon's mantiya, the church guided by its
> for all these years, to provide the example of righteousness andchurches
> unity, and the only way to do THAT is to open our hearts and
> to them...to
> Sadly, thanks to various 'iskushenii', our own troubles are only
> weakening our once rock-solid moral ground.
> I will agree with the evident lack of "Christian love" ... and I
> respect questions, but not when the questioners think they already
> know they answers and don't want to be told otherwise, which seems
> be the case all too often.http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> And that is all MY opinion. I wish I were more qualified to answer
> some of the issues, and I truly find all the hostility and division
> Forgive me for bluntness, and for any insults, all unintended.
> Sincerely, in the Ascended Christ,
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