5644Re: The lowly ROCOR website - nothing to say
- Feb 9, 2002The actions that patriarch Tikhon took or did not take after he
pronounced his anathema do not change in any way the fact of the
anathema, its appropriateness and the fact that Sergianism is both
anathema and heretical.
We are judging a proposal here, not a person. In doing so, we are
defending Christ's Truth, which is the duty of any Christian. In
condemning Sergianism, as the new martyrs did, we do not even condemn
Met Sergius himself. He probably did commit a grave sin, but who am
I, sinner to judge him? As I said before, maybe God has forgiven him
already. It nevertheless remains true that Sergianism is sin and
heretical. A heresy is a heresy by nature, not by authorship.
We should never forget the duty that Christ has given us to exert our
judgement ("You will recognise them by their fruits"). The principle
that we will be judged as we have judged has nothing to do with this.
If I should be heretical, I hope my orthodox brothers will let me
know. I would be grateful if they helped me out of my error.
This being said, the opinion that I have about reunion with the MP is
mine precisely because I think it is that of the Church.
I do not agree with the proposal: "this is for our bishops to decide
and not you and other people with their various personal opinions
which do not reflect the Church" for the following reasons:
1. I never said that I would decide anything about this matter.
2. I may however have an opinion about this and I may discuss it
with a bishop and with you. The bishop might be interested in hearing
what I have to say, either to take it into account or to correct me.
Remember, bishops are not infallible and laymen are members of the
Church. It would be abnormal that bishops would take decisions that
would be contrary to the opinion of their flock who, by definition,
express the opinion of the Church too.
3. My opinions about the Church always reflect those of the
Church. I adopt as opinion for myself what I perceive as being the
opinion of the Church. My research consists in finding out what the
opinion of the Church is, to adopt it for myself. Discussions come
about when the opinion of the Church is unclear. This happens. The
voice of the laymen may be a signal for the Church that She should be
What happens also, as you know, is that different bishops express
different opinions about a given subject. Synods have erred in the
past, as we all know. In conclusion, bishops and laymen should be in
close unity and absence thereof is always a cause for concern, not a
fact to be ignored.
--- In orthodox-synod@y..., Robert Kearney <niconar20@y...> wrote:
> As I recall, did not Patriarch Tikhon also collaborate
> with the Soviet authorities after he was released from
> prison in 1923? Did not he recognize the treaty of
> Brest Lovak and called upon the people to support the
> Soviet government? Would not this actions have also
> placed this holy man under his own anathema? Prehaps
> this are things that the people who constantly shout
> about this particular event should take time out to
> think about what they are saying instead of just
> shouting words out in judgment?
> Remeber, Christ said, "Treat others the way that you
> would want to be treated." THe same judgment that you
> give to others shall be given to you in a similar
> manner based on your own life. So let us have an end
> to this legalistic pharisee like behavior and begin to
> try to imitate Christ rather then those who stoned
> him. Prehaps this is not the best time to reunite with
> MP, but this is for our bishops to decide and not you
> and other people with their various personal opinions
> which do not reflect the Church.
> In Christ N. R. Kearney
> (Who supports Metropolitan Lavr and the true Synod of
> --- vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
> > Dear Father Seraphim,
> > You write: "Sergianism is a sin, and a terrible sin,
> > but not a
> > heresy, and not unlike other occurrences in Orthodox
> > history".
> > Let me respectfully state that I disagree with you.
> > First, let us
> > distinguish two things that are called "Sergianism":
> > 1. The conduct that consists in following Bishop
> > Sergius's teaching
> > in deeds.
> > 2. A teaching stating that bishop Sergius's tactics
> > did save the
> > Church.
> > Both of them are heretical.
> > Concerning (1), Patriarch Tikhon has anathematised
> > those who
> > collaborated with the atheist government. To
> > anathematise a conduct
> > is to declare it officially contrary to the teaching
> > of the Church,
> > that is contrary to the teaching of Christ. A
> > conduct that is
> > contrary to the teaching of Christ is heretical.
> > (2) is more important for us. Nobody, for the moment
> > does collaborate
> > with the communist government any longer. We are
> > told that this is a
> > thing of the past. Let it be. Nevertheless, the
> > teaching that
> > Sergianism has saved the Church in Russia is
> > presently actively
> > promoted by the MP. In our Church, this teaching is
> > tolerated as not
> > heretical by those who are tired to stand for the
> > Truth or are
> > seduced by the idea of re-union at the expense of
> > the Truth. Claiming
> > that Sergianism has saved the Church is heretical
> > because:
> > Patriarch Tikhon declared the collaboration of the
> > Church with the
> > Bolsheviks anathema. Metropolitan Sergius did just
> > what the Patriarch
> > had anathematised. An anathematised conduct cannot
> > save the Church.
> > Believing it or teaching that it can is heretical.
> > You write yourself that Sergianism is a great sin.
> > Claiming the
> > opposite is heretical. Claiming that a great sin has
> > saved the Church
> > is heretical too.
> > In general, claiming that an action has saved the
> > Church means either
> > that it pleased God, or that it did save the Church
> > in spite of it
> > not pleasing God. Claiming that calling the martyrs
> > counterrevolutionaries and excluding them from the
> > Church pleased God
> > is heretical. Claiming that bishop Sergius saved the
> > Church by an
> > action that displeased God is heretical too.
> > It is important to know that heresies are not only
> > proposals that
> > explicit contradict explicit proposals of the Creed.
> > There are other
> > heresies than those that have been declared heresies
> > by the seven
> > Councils. We were warned by Metropolitan Philaret.
> > The heresies that
> > we face now are more subtle and dangerous than the
> > past ones. Now, we
> > can see it.
> > Becoming tolerant to heresies is one of the most
> > terrible dangers for
> > our Church. Everything in this world invites us to
> > unite with
> > schismatics and heretics and to acknowledge that we
> > all "pray the
> > same God". Patriarch Alexis just declared to the
> > Pope of Rome that
> > the orthodox and the "catholic" Church are both
> > based on tradition.
> > As soon as the "catholic proselytism" ends, talks
> > about unity will
> > start, he said. Look at those orthodox who forget
> > the heretical
> > nature of the schisms that have separated most of
> > mankind from
> > orthodoxy, and that are ready to join them in the
> > heresy.
> > In Christ, and begging your prayers
> > VK
> > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Priest Seraphim
> > Holland" <seraphim@o...>
> > wrote:
> > > The Society for Orthodox Truth said:
> > > > Fr. Seraphim was speaking of a different
> > situation, he was
> > speaking of,
> > > > if the ROCOR has nothing to say, then all the
> > systems people in
> > the
> > > > world can't help.
> > >
> > > I am not the webmaster, and have not been since
> > the Sobor. I am
> > told that
> > > there is an ukaz, but have not seen one. I was
> > only told on the
> > telephone.
> > >
> > > I stand by my criticism of our church.
> > >
> > > I scratched and clawed for years, getting
> > information, stories, even
> > > BEGGING for letters to be written (such as after
> > 911). We are so
> > entrenched
> > > and fearful of the implications of discussion with
> > the MP that we
> > are
> > > paralyzed. We hurl jargon, and invent heresies to
> > oppose
> > (Sergianism is a
> > > sin, and a terrible sin, but not a heresy, and not
> > unlike other
> > occurrences
> > > in Orthodox history).
> > >
> > > I am quite despondent about our church's lack of
> > vision, activity,
> > > information dissemination (see the very top of
> > this letter),
> > courage and
> > > compassion (if we care about Russia, we should be
> > the "big brother"
> > and be
> > > brotherly and conciliatory (and no, this does not
> > mean immediate
> > union, or
> > > giving up our principles), instead, we are more
> > like the "elder
> > son").
> > >
> > > I was involved in investigating, upon the orders
> > of my hierarchy
> > (after
> > > MANY calls and emails from me and many others)
> > serious perversion
> > in our
> > > church. My report was not acted on. Another one
> > preceding mine was
> > not
> > > acted on. When the guy cut and ran (no duh, we did
> > not bother to
> > address
> > > the situation early, and later, it was clear to me
> > that
> === message truncated ===
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