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18143Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Sobor voting;

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  • Basil Yakimov
    Oct 6, 2006
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      Dear fr. Victor where does it say that after the Eucharist that the All Russia Sobor will occur - it is not logical - sadly for the delegates in SF that if business or ortherwise must be pressured this is not true - I know the names ... I have returned to the public service in Australia... KGB agents whether in post soviet union or otherwise... remember this please that.. many millions of our brothers & sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ were butchered by izvergi such as Lenin, Stalin & indirectly sadly.... by those who supported the Soviet state such as metr Sergious & others...

      Unworthy as I am I ask the Lord to fogive them but the TRUTH cannot be white washed by any SOBOR in SF or otherwise....

      Basil from Canberra

      interestedplus <asvetlov@...> wrote: Dear Father Victor,

      You wrote:

      the Resolution states that any remaining problems to be resolved by
      the an All Russian Sobor, which, of course, can only occur after the
      reestablishment of Eucharist and Canonical union.
      In Christ,
      Priest Victor Boldewskul

      Can I ask "why?". Particularly since the other "Russian" Church
      Jurisdictions should be included in a "COUNCIL", including the
      Catacomb Church bishops. The whole current day problem is one
      of "acceptance" by other churches of churches as part of the Russian
      Church. This will never be resolved without a true conciliar council
      of all bishops who any decisions of the council will affect. The
      Arians were part of the councils. Could someone with more knowledge
      of canonical procedure please answer my question. I'd be very
      grateful.

      In Christ,
      Alexandra

      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvictor@... wrote:
      >
      > Dear Melissa,
      > The Resolution of the 4th All Diaspora Sobor was published. See:
      >
      http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2006/5ensobresolution.htm
      l
      >
      > The text speaks for itself. Also, in an interview with Bishop
      Gabriel, His Grace also noted that the Resolution was adopted nearly
      unnanimously. Note especially paragraph one which includes the
      following: "... attest that as loyal children of the Holy Church, we
      shall submit to Divine will and obey the decisions of the forthcoming
      Council of Bishops."
      >
      > Also paragraph two: "We archpastors, pastors and laymen, members of
      the IV All-Diaspora Council, unanimously express our resoluteness to
      heal the wounds of division within the Russian Church¬óbetween her
      parts in the Fatherland and abroad. Our Paschal joy is joined by the
      great hope that in the appropriate time, the unity of the Russian
      Church will be restored upon the foundation of the Truth of Christ,
      opening for us the possibility to serve together and to commune from
      one Chalice."
      > Note the words "submit" and "obey" and accepting that the decisions
      of the Sobor of Bishops represent God's will.
      > Note the words "resoluteness to heal the wounds of division."
      > According to the conciliar resolution of the 4th All Diapora Sobor,
      which the bishops accepted, it has been recongnized that any decision
      on the part of our bishops is concidered Divine Will. Therefore, we
      can rejoice, for our bishops have determined that now is the
      appropriate time for the unity of the Russian Church to be restored.
      My opinion does not matter, nor does yours. All that matters is God's
      will, and that we fulfill it. Your husband wrote on this list that
      those who support union need to humble themselves. Every Christian
      needs to humble themselves to God's Holy Will.
      > I wish to also add, that this resolution on accepting the decisions
      of our bishops as Divine will is what I was always taught growing up
      in Rochester, especially by the current Rector who was my teacher in
      Seminary, and who was the vice-president of the Sobor the day of the
      voting of the Resolution.
      > Finally, the Resolution states that any remaining problems to be
      resolved by the an All Russian Sobor, which, of course, can only
      occur after the reestablishment of Eucharist and Canonical union.
      > In Christ,
      > Priest Victor Boldewskul
      >
      > -------------- Original message --------------
      > From: Melissa Bushunow <cafeconlechemom@...>
      >
      > > Dear in Christ Fr. Stefan,
      > >
      > >
      > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 4:57 PM, Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko wrote:
      > >
      > > > Ms. Melissa Bushunow,
      > > >
      > > > Where do you get this information?
      > >
      > > I received this information from SOBOR delegate Timothy Clader.
      > > Timothy Clader was witness to Counting Committee President Fr.
      Vladimir
      > > Petrenko saying that he refused to sign off on the counting
      committee's
      > > report.
      > >
      > > > Show me please the statements
      > > > confirming what you say.
      > >
      > > Please show us the scanned document from the Sobor, with Fr.
      Vladimir
      > > Petrenko's signature on it.
      > >
      > > > The "Count" is there, every member who was
      > > > there physically present knows exactly what happened in their
      > > > presence and you are trying to make it seem like there was some
      > > > discrepancy about the actual RATIFICATION of the resolution.
      Yours
      > > > is an out right MISREPRESENTATION >>>BY YOU<<< of what took
      place at
      > > > the SOBOR, and unless you present documentation based on
      factual
      > > > proof, your statements are misguided at least, if not out right
      > > > LIES.
      > >
      > > Ask Fr. Vladimir Petrenko. In lieu of that, publish the minutes,
      post
      > > scanned SOBOR documents.
      > >
      > > We have been asking for documentation from the SOBOR for weeks,
      if not
      > > months, and it has not been forthcoming. Where are the minutes?
      > >
      > > Where are the transcriptions of the questions by the delegates,
      their
      > > comments, and the answers to them that were to have been entered
      into
      > > the minutes?
      > >
      > > > I was there and every member who was present is a witness to
      > > > the facts.
      > >
      > > Let all the members of ROCOR hear all the facts of SOBOR, as
      documented
      > > by the minutes. All we have heard and seen are the pro-union
      speeches.
      > >
      > > > YOU ARE A DISIMINATOR OF FALSE INFORMATION. I accuse you
      > > > personally, until you >>>Melissa Bushunow<<< show your sources,
      of
      > > > FABRICATING A LIE about the SOBOR!
      > > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
      > > >
      > > The disseminators of false information are those who willfully
      stifled
      > > discussion on the MP'S sergianist, ecumenist activities at SOBOR,
      and
      > > those who continue to do so by not publishing the minutes.
      > >
      > > Melissa Bushunow
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > > ---------------------------------------------------
      > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Melissa Bushunow
      > > > wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 2:11 PM, Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
      wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > > > Fr. Vladimir Petrenko, President of the Counting
      Committee,
      > > > > > refused to> sign off on the vote, but his name was posted
      > > > anyway.
      > > > > > > Sound familiar? > Melissa Bushunow
      > > > > > --------------------------------------------------->
      > > > > >
      > > > > > This is just unfair, the whole assembly is witness to the
      fact
      > > > of
      > > > > > the vote count and the almost unanimous out come.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Father Vladimir's personal actions aside, the vote was the
      vote.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > This is just outrageous misrepresentation!
      > > > >
      > > > > There have been numerous misrepresentations of what went on
      at
      > > > Sobor
      > > > > and elsewhere. That Fr. Vladimir Petrenko refused to sign off
      on
      > > > the
      > > > > vote count is the truth. That someone posted his name to it,
      > > > despite
      > > > > his refusal, to give the impression that its fairness was
      > > > uncontested
      > > > > -- that is the real misrepresentation.
      > > > >
      > > > > Melissa Bushunow
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > > GOD HELP YOU FOR SUCH CALCULATED AND GROSSLY UNFAIR
      POSTING.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      ==============================================================
      > > > > > -- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Melissa Bushunow
      > > > > > wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Since the discussion has returned to the voting question:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > On Aug 8, 2006, at 2:24 PM, Fr. Alexander Lebedeff wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Finally, I would like to remind people to look at the
      > > > official vote
      > > > > > > > tally on the Resolution, found at:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > >
      http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2006/5ensoborvote.html
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Here we see that with 124 members voting, and each
      paragraph
      > > > > > being
      > > > > > > > voted on separately, out of a total cumulative 868
      votes,
      > > > there
      > > > > > were,
      > > > > > > > cumulatively, 843 "yes" votes, 7 "no" votes, and 18
      > > > abstentions.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Note carefully also who the members of the Counting
      > > > Committee
      > > > > > were:
      > > > > > > > President--Fr. Vladimir Petrenko from the South
      American
      > > > > > > > Diocese, Protodeacon Andre Meillassoux (Western
      European
      > > > > > Diocese)
      > > > > > > > and Alexander Ivanovich Mytilin ( Odessa Diocese).
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > It would be hard to believe that the representatives of
      the
      > > > > > South
      > > > > > > > American and Odessa Dioceses would have been biased in
      > > > favor of
      > > > > > > > rapprochement. . .
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Witj love in Christ,
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Fr. Vladimir Petrenko, President of the Counting
      Committee,
      > > > > > refused to
      > > > > > > sign off on the vote, but his name was posted anyway.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Sound familiar?
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Melissa Bushunow
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 12:42 PM, Bushunow, Peter wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Priest Victor Boldewskul writes:
      > > > > > > > >On a side note, someone tried to cast a shadow over
      the
      > > > > > procedure of
      > > > > > > > the voting. The floor that day was controlled by the V.
      Rev.
      > > > > > > > >Gregory Naumenko, who is the rector of Holy Protection
      > > > Parish
      > > > > > in
      > > > > > > > Rochester NY. Those who know Fr.. Gregory personally
      know
      > > > that
      > > > > > > is
      > > > > > > > very much concerned about the welfare of his flock,
      some of
      > > > > > whom are
      > > > > > > > openly against the process of reconciliation, and have
      not
      > > > > > > > >issued statements of support for our bishops in this
      > > > regard.
      > > > > > No one
      > > > > > > > would accused Fr. Gregory of being part of any plot to
      push
      > > > > > > > >anything through one way or the other. Likewise, the
      > > > > > Resolution
      > > > > > > > itself
      > > > > > > > was presented by His Eminence Archbishop Hilarion.
      Again,
      > > > > > > > >Vladyka has an impecible reputation of fairness.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Yes, Fr. Victor, the voting was done incorrectly.
      > > > > > > > The delegates heard speeches for three days, then
      Vladika
      > > > > > Agaphangel
      > > > > > > > asked that the actual Act be read. Father Alexander
      gave a
      > > > > > > > presentation. The actual Act, a "draft" of which is now
      > > > > > available on
      > > > > > > > the internet, as not presented to the delegates. The
      > > > delegates
      > > > > > voted
      > > > > > > > paragraph by paragraph on a resolution that was very
      > > > carefully
      > > > > > written
      > > > > > > > to express well-meaning sentiment but no firm
      substance. The
      > > > > > voting
      > > > > > > > was
      > > > > > > > by affirmation -- not a closed, written vote. The
      > > > resolution as
      > > > > > a
      > > > > > > > whole
      > > > > > > > was not brought up for a vote.
      > > > > > > > Father Alexander has indicated in an email, in contrast
      to
      > > > what
      > > > > > was
      > > > > > > > announced at the Council, that records of the
      proceedings
      > > > are
      > > > > > not
      > > > > > > > going
      > > > > > > > to be made available for us to read. A shame.
      > > > > > > > Peter
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > >
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