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18136Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Sobor voting;

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  • michael nikitin
    Oct 4, 2006
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      Alexandra is correct. The Catacomb bishops should be included as should the OCA also.

      If we went out of our way to have dialogue to join the MP, why couldn't we at the same time have begun dialogue with the Catacomb bishops and the OCA? We didn't even make an attempt to
      have dialogue with them. There is something wrong with this picture and it's not according to
      Ukaz #362.


      This type of council with only the MP/ROCOR present is typically called a Robber Sobor.

      Michael N


      ----- Original Message ----
      From: interestedplus <asvetlov@...>
      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 2006 6:51:38 AM
      Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Sobor voting;













      Dear Father Victor,



      You wrote:



      the Resolution states that any remaining problems to be resolved by

      the an All Russian Sobor, which, of course, can only occur after the

      reestablishment of Eucharist and Canonical union.

      In Christ,

      Priest Victor Boldewskul



      Can I ask "why?". Particularly since the other "Russian" Church

      Jurisdictions should be included in a "COUNCIL", including the

      Catacomb Church bishops. The whole current day problem is one

      of "acceptance" by other churches of churches as part of the Russian

      Church. This will never be resolved without a true conciliar council

      of all bishops who any decisions of the council will affect. The

      Arians were part of the councils. Could someone with more knowledge

      of canonical procedure please answer my question. I'd be very

      grateful.



      In Christ,

      Alexandra



      --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, frvictor@... wrote:

      >

      > Dear Melissa,

      > The Resolution of the 4th All Diaspora Sobor was published. See:

      >

      http://www.russiano rthodoxchurch. ws/synod/ eng2006/5ensobre solution. htm

      l

      >

      > The text speaks for itself. Also, in an interview with Bishop

      Gabriel, His Grace also noted that the Resolution was adopted nearly

      unnanimously. Note especially paragraph one which includes the

      following: "... attest that as loyal children of the Holy Church, we

      shall submit to Divine will and obey the decisions of the forthcoming

      Council of Bishops."

      >

      > Also paragraph two: "We archpastors, pastors and laymen, members of

      the IV All-Diaspora Council, unanimously express our resoluteness to

      heal the wounds of division within the Russian Church´┐Żbetween her

      parts in the Fatherland and abroad. Our Paschal joy is joined by the

      great hope that in the appropriate time, the unity of the Russian

      Church will be restored upon the foundation of the Truth of Christ,

      opening for us the possibility to serve together and to commune from

      one Chalice."

      > Note the words "submit" and "obey" and accepting that the decisions

      of the Sobor of Bishops represent God's will.

      > Note the words "resoluteness to heal the wounds of division."

      > According to the conciliar resolution of the 4th All Diapora Sobor,

      which the bishops accepted, it has been recongnized that any decision

      on the part of our bishops is concidered Divine Will. Therefore, we

      can rejoice, for our bishops have determined that now is the

      appropriate time for the unity of the Russian Church to be restored.

      My opinion does not matter, nor does yours. All that matters is God's

      will, and that we fulfill it. Your husband wrote on this list that

      those who support union need to humble themselves. Every Christian

      needs to humble themselves to God's Holy Will.

      > I wish to also add, that this resolution on accepting the decisions

      of our bishops as Divine will is what I was always taught growing up

      in Rochester, especially by the current Rector who was my teacher in

      Seminary, and who was the vice-president of the Sobor the day of the

      voting of the Resolution.

      > Finally, the Resolution states that any remaining problems to be

      resolved by the an All Russian Sobor, which, of course, can only

      occur after the reestablishment of Eucharist and Canonical union.

      > In Christ,

      > Priest Victor Boldewskul

      >

      > ------------ -- Original message ------------ --

      > From: Melissa Bushunow <cafeconlechemom@ ...>

      >

      > > Dear in Christ Fr. Stefan,

      > >

      > >

      > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 4:57 PM, Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko wrote:

      > >

      > > > Ms. Melissa Bushunow,

      > > >

      > > > Where do you get this information?

      > >

      > > I received this information from SOBOR delegate Timothy Clader.

      > > Timothy Clader was witness to Counting Committee President Fr.

      Vladimir

      > > Petrenko saying that he refused to sign off on the counting

      committee's

      > > report.

      > >

      > > > Show me please the statements

      > > > confirming what you say.

      > >

      > > Please show us the scanned document from the Sobor, with Fr.

      Vladimir

      > > Petrenko's signature on it.

      > >

      > > > The "Count" is there, every member who was

      > > > there physically present knows exactly what happened in their

      > > > presence and you are trying to make it seem like there was some

      > > > discrepancy about the actual RATIFICATION of the resolution.

      Yours

      > > > is an out right MISREPRESENTATION >>>BY YOU<<< of what took

      place at

      > > > the SOBOR, and unless you present documentation based on

      factual

      > > > proof, your statements are misguided at least, if not out right

      > > > LIES.

      > >

      > > Ask Fr. Vladimir Petrenko. In lieu of that, publish the minutes,

      post

      > > scanned SOBOR documents.

      > >

      > > We have been asking for documentation from the SOBOR for weeks,

      if not

      > > months, and it has not been forthcoming. Where are the minutes?

      > >

      > > Where are the transcriptions of the questions by the delegates,

      their

      > > comments, and the answers to them that were to have been entered

      into

      > > the minutes?

      > >

      > > > I was there and every member who was present is a witness to

      > > > the facts.

      > >

      > > Let all the members of ROCOR hear all the facts of SOBOR, as

      documented

      > > by the minutes. All we have heard and seen are the pro-union

      speeches.

      > >

      > > > YOU ARE A DISIMINATOR OF FALSE INFORMATION. I accuse you

      > > > personally, until you >>>Melissa Bushunow<<< show your sources,

      of

      > > > FABRICATING A LIE about the SOBOR!

      > > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko

      > > >

      > > The disseminators of false information are those who willfully

      stifled

      > > discussion on the MP'S sergianist, ecumenist activities at SOBOR,

      and

      > > those who continue to do so by not publishing the minutes.

      > >

      > > Melissa Bushunow

      > >

      > >

      > >

      > >

      > >

      > >

      > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---

      > > > --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, Melissa Bushunow

      > > > wrote:

      > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 2:11 PM, Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko

      wrote:

      > > > >

      > > > > > > Fr. Vladimir Petrenko, President of the Counting

      Committee,

      > > > > > refused to> sign off on the vote, but his name was posted

      > > > anyway.

      > > > > > > Sound familiar? > Melissa Bushunow

      > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --->

      > > > > >

      > > > > > This is just unfair, the whole assembly is witness to the

      fact

      > > > of

      > > > > > the vote count and the almost unanimous out come.

      > > > > >

      > > > > > Father Vladimir's personal actions aside, the vote was the

      vote.

      > > > > >

      > > > > > This is just outrageous misrepresentation!

      > > > >

      > > > > There have been numerous misrepresentations of what went on

      at

      > > > Sobor

      > > > > and elsewhere. That Fr. Vladimir Petrenko refused to sign off

      on

      > > > the

      > > > > vote count is the truth. That someone posted his name to it,

      > > > despite

      > > > > his refusal, to give the impression that its fairness was

      > > > uncontested

      > > > > -- that is the real misrepresentation.

      > > > >

      > > > > Melissa Bushunow

      > > > >

      > > > >

      > > > > > GOD HELP YOU FOR SUCH CALCULATED AND GROSSLY UNFAIR

      POSTING.

      > > > > >

      > > > > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko

      > > > > >

      > > > > >

      ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= =====

      > > > > > -- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, Melissa Bushunow

      > > > > > wrote:

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > Since the discussion has returned to the voting question:

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > On Aug 8, 2006, at 2:24 PM, Fr. Alexander Lebedeff wrote:

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > Finally, I would like to remind people to look at the

      > > > official vote

      > > > > > > > tally on the Resolution, found at:

      > > > > > > >

      > > > > > > >

      > > > > >

      > > >

      http://www.russiano rthodoxchurch. ws/synod/ eng2006/5ensobor vote.html

      > > > > > > >

      > > > > > > > Here we see that with 124 members voting, and each

      paragraph

      > > > > > being

      > > > > > > > voted on separately, out of a total cumulative 868

      votes,

      > > > there

      > > > > > were,

      > > > > > > > cumulatively, 843 "yes" votes, 7 "no" votes, and 18

      > > > abstentions.

      > > > > > > >

      > > > > > > >

      > > > > > > > Note carefully also who the members of the Counting

      > > > Committee

      > > > > > were:

      > > > > > > > President--Fr. Vladimir Petrenko from the South

      American

      > > > > > > > Diocese, Protodeacon Andre Meillassoux (Western

      European

      > > > > > Diocese)

      > > > > > > > and Alexander Ivanovich Mytilin ( Odessa Diocese).

      > > > > > > >

      > > > > > > > It would be hard to believe that the representatives of

      the

      > > > > > South

      > > > > > > > American and Odessa Dioceses would have been biased in

      > > > favor of

      > > > > > > > rapprochement. . .

      > > > > > > >

      > > > > > > > Witj love in Christ,

      > > > > > > >

      > > > > > > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff

      > > > > > > >

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > Fr. Vladimir Petrenko, President of the Counting

      Committee,

      > > > > > refused to

      > > > > > > sign off on the vote, but his name was posted anyway.

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > Sound familiar?

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > Melissa Bushunow

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 12:42 PM, Bushunow, Peter wrote:

      > > > > > >

      > > > > > > > Priest Victor Boldewskul writes:

      > > > > > > > >On a side note, someone tried to cast a shadow over

      the

      > > > > > procedure of

      > > > > > > > the voting. The floor that day was controlled by the V.

      Rev.

      > > > > > > > >Gregory Naumenko, who is the rector of Holy Protection

      > > > Parish

      > > > > > in

      > > > > > > > Rochester NY. Those who know Fr.. Gregory personally

      know

      > > > that

      > > > > > > is

      > > > > > > > very much concerned about the welfare of his flock,

      some of

      > > > > > whom are

      > > > > > > > openly against the process of reconciliation, and have

      not

      > > > > > > > >issued statements of support for our bishops in this

      > > > regard.

      > > > > > No one

      > > > > > > > would accused Fr. Gregory of being part of any plot to

      push

      > > > > > > > >anything through one way or the other. Likewise, the

      > > > > > Resolution

      > > > > > > > itself

      > > > > > > > was presented by His Eminence Archbishop Hilarion.

      Again,

      > > > > > > > >Vladyka has an impecible reputation of fairness.

      > > > > > > >

      > > > > > > > Yes, Fr. Victor, the voting was done incorrectly.

      > > > > > > > The delegates heard speeches for three days, then

      Vladika

      > > > > > Agaphangel

      > > > > > > > asked that the actual Act be read. Father Alexander

      gave a

      > > > > > > > presentation. The actual Act, a "draft" of which is now

      > > > > > available on

      > > > > > > > the internet, as not presented to the delegates. The

      > > > delegates

      > > > > > voted

      > > > > > > > paragraph by paragraph on a resolution that was very

      > > > carefully

      > > > > > written

      > > > > > > > to express well-meaning sentiment but no firm

      substance. The

      > > > > > voting

      > > > > > > > was

      > > > > > > > by affirmation -- not a closed, written vote. The

      > > > resolution as

      > > > > > a

      > > > > > > > whole

      > > > > > > > was not brought up for a vote.

      > > > > > > > Father Alexander has indicated in an email, in contrast

      to

      > > > what

      > > > > > was

      > > > > > > > announced at the Council, that records of the

      proceedings

      > > > are

      > > > > > not

      > > > > > > > going

      > > > > > > > to be made available for us to read. A shame.

      > > > > > > > Peter

      > > > > > > >

      > > > > > > >

      > > > > > > >

      > > > > > > >

      > > > > >

      > > >

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