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16481Re: canonical obstacles

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  • vlutchenkov
    May 1, 2006
      Christ is Risen,

      Mr. Nikitin starts his e-mail with a very strong statement, which he
      then attempts to support with his own opinions, while failing to
      provide any reference or support in the linked document.

      Mr. Nikitin wrote: Joining a heretical institution and following it's
      rules is agreeing with it's heresy.

      He further makes a statement that in my opinion contradicts his own
      thesis.

      Mr. Nikitin wrote: All the bishops from MP or OCA who came to ROCOR
      had to repent.

      If all they had to do was repent to be accepted in to ROCOR, and they
      did not have to be re- baptized (or would that be baptized for the
      first time), they did not have to go to a ROCOR seminary or pass
      a "clergy entrance exam" to start or better yet continue there
      calling, then a logical conclusion would be that they did not come
      from a heretical sect.

      Mr.Nikitin please note that the same document you refer us to
      (written by wiser men then us is very specific in its conclusion. The
      last paragraph reads;

      "Taking into consideration all the above mentioned reasons, the
      Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia,
      as the representative of the free part of the Russian Church,
      determines: The election of Pimen (Izvekov) as Patriarch of Moscow
      and All Russia at the gathering calling itself an All-Russian Church
      Council in Moscow the 2nd of June of this year, on the authority of
      the 3rd Canon of the 7th Ecumenical Council and other reasons set
      forth in this decision, is to be regarded as unlawful and void, and
      all of his acts and directions as having no strength."

      This appears to be a statement about the freedom - or more the lack
      of freedom the church had (Vova's comment: and may still have) than
      about it not having grace. To me the statement is very specific as
      to Patriarch Pimen and all of his acts and directions. It also has
      an interesting statement, "calling itself an All-Russian Church
      Council in Moscow." Please lets remember that for 200 years before
      Patriarch Tikhon the Orthodox Church of Russia did not have a
      Patriarch. Mr. Nikitin is on a very slippery slope with his thesis.

      Having said that I wish to return to a point (question) that a number
      of folks have brought up or posed on this list and as of yet the
      clergy (who we look to for guidance) have not responded and yes in
      some cases have taken off on tangents. That is; How can we (ROCOR)
      consider the reconciliation process to be proper if we are now
      compromising our position about repentance now? Can one of the clergy
      please tell me if I am correct – Did the Patriarch of Bulgaria along
      with the entire Episcopate ask for forgiveness from the Bulgarian
      people for "working with the communist government?

      Inquiring minds want to know. It would be nice to hear from Fathers
      Alexander Lebedeff, John Shaw, and Stephan Pavlenko about acts of
      repentance or confession.

      Boba or Vova (Still not Vova H)
      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
      <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
      >
      > Joining a heretical institution and following it's rules is
      agreeing with it's heresy. It is a tacit denial of the unique truth
      of the Orthodox Church.
      > All who join the WCC sign it's heretical stipulations, therefore
      agreeing with them.
      >
      > All our previous hierarchs of ROCOR did not believe the MP to be
      the Historic Russian Church. When speaking of our Historic Russian
      Church under St.Tikhon they always called it our persecuted church.
      When the Moscow Patriarch was mentioned, it was always in a negative
      way and not the Historic Russian Church. B.Averky called the MP a
      harlot for praying with everyone. Our previous hierarch's would
      > never call their Mother Church, the historic Russian Church of
      St.Tikhon, a harlot.
      >
      > It is sufficient to say what our hierarchs believed is what our
      ROCOR believed. We can see this by the Synod's declaration of 1971
      which states the election of the Patriarch of MP is unlawful and
      void and his acts as being void. Therefore all ordinations from him
      are null and void. We see by this that the personal opinions of our
      > previouis hierarch's are the opnion of our Synod.
      >
      > All the bishops from MP or OCA who came to ROCOR had to repent.
      Fr.John is not being sincere.
      >
      > Please read the official proclamation of our Synod of 1971:
      >
      > http://www.stvladimirs.ca/library/concerning-patriarch-pimen.html
      > ...
      > 4. All of the elections of Patriarchs in Moscow, beginning in 1943,
      are
      > invalid on the basis of the 30th Canon of the Holy Apostles and the
      3rd
      > Canon of the 7th Ecumenical Council, according to which, "if any
      bishop,
      > having made use of secular rulers, should receive through them
      Episcopal
      > authority in the Church, let him be defrocked and excommunicated
      along with
      > all those in communion with him". The significance that the Fathers
      of the
      > 7th Council gave to such an offense is obvious from the very fact
      of a
      > double punishment for it, that is, not only deposition but
      excommunication
      > as well, something unusual for ecclesiastical law.
      > ...
      > Taking into consideration all the above mentioned reasons, the
      Council of
      > Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, as the
      > representative of the free part of the Russian Church,
      determines: The
      > election of Pimen (Izvekov) as Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia
      at the
      > gathering calling itself an All-Russian Church Council in Moscow
      the 2nd of
      > June of this year, on the authority of the 3rd Canon of the 7th
      Ecumenical
      > Council and other reasons set forth in this decision, is to be
      regarded as
      > unlawful and void, and all of his acts and directions as having no
      strength.
      >
      > Michael N
      >
      > "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
      > XPICTOC BOCKPECE!
      >
      > Peter Bushunow wrote:
      >
      > > Father Alexander Lebedeff admitted very openly at our Diocesan
      meeting
      > > in Lakewood that the question of whether Patriarch Alexei and
      other
      > > Hierarchs of the MP are canonical bishops was never brought
      up. These
      > > issues were just not discussed, not resolved.
      >
      > JRS: But there never was any question about that for ROCOR. If
      there had been, it would have been an issue long ago. MP clergy were
      always received "in statu quo", and it could be shown who the
      bishops were that consecrated the Patriarch, and, if need be, who
      consecrated all the other MP bishops.
      >
      > I think the reason it was "never brought up", is that there was
      no doubt about their being canonical bishops.
      >
      > > One of the main heretical activities of the MP is their active
      > > participation in the WCC and other ecumenical organizations.
      You keep
      > > repeating that the MP is only an observer at the WCC.
      Patriarch Alexei
      > > has been, and continues to be an active participant (read his
      biography
      > > at http://mospat.ru/index.php?mid=99&lng=1 "Metropolitan Alexy
      took an
      > > active part in the work of international and national peace
      public
      > > organizations.") in fact, he is on the board of multiple
      organizations
      > > including the 'Rodina' (Motherland) Society,
      >
      > JRS: But none of that is what we mean by "the heresy of
      ecumenism".
      >
      > There is no "heresy" in going to meetings, taking an active part
      in international and national peace public organizations.
      >
      > The "heresy of ecumenism" lies in a denial of the unique truth of
      the Orthodox faith. That is what we call a heresy.
      >
      > > Father John, you and other current writers keep repeating that
      ROCOR
      > > hierarchs have never proclaimed that the MP is lacking Grace.
      On the
      > > contrary, there are numerous writings arguing exactly that
      point.
      >
      > JRS: But they are not proclamations by ROCOR: they are simply
      personal opinions.
      >
      > You might be surprised what you could find among the personal
      opinions of even the great Saints.
      >
      > > No, there is A LOT to talk about. Bringing these issues to
      the table,
      > > in the open, with emotional talk about the "podvig of
      reconciliation"
      > > will let us see ourselves and the ROCOR church more clearly,
      and, God
      > > willing, will bring those in Russia more closer to repentance.
      >
      > JRS: Why "emotional talk"? I would prefer to speak of "sincere
      talk". People can be quite irrational when they become emotional.
      Emotions do not solve anything.
      >
      > In Christ
      > Fr. John R. Shaw
      >
      > ---------------------------------
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      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
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