15664Re: one dimensional church
- Dec 12, 2005--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "vkozyreff"
>The Lord bless you.
> Dear Father John, bless.
> Please excuse me for not agreeing with you. You are in totalAnd I trust that you will also excuse me for not agreeing with you;
> confusion, it seems to me.
including not agreeing that I am in "total confusion."
>Is such a claim opinion, or dogma? Obviously, if it is dogma, it is
> An organisation that claims that Met Sergius saved the Church is not
> the Church. The Church is in the apostolic succession, which implies
> teaching orthodoxy.
> An organisation that is not under persecution any longer and endorsesThis attempts, it seems, to paint a picture that condemns the ROC-MP
> the declaration that was obtained by God fighting authorities from a
> hierarch by torture for the purpose of anihilating the Church is not
> the successor of the tortured hierarch, but the successor of those
> who applied pressure to obtain that declaration. This remains the
> case even if that organisation does not collaborate with God fighting
> authorities any longer.
for not explicitly repudiating the Declaration of Met. SERGEI. The
document on Church-State relations adopted in 2000 by the MP Sobor
rejects the policy of the Declaration, albeit without saying
explicitly that the previous policy was wrong. So the premise in your
opening sentence is invalid; the policy of the 1927 Declaration is not
endorsed. The MP's acknowledgment of the historicity of the
Declaration is not the same as an endorsement.
>Who has made such a determination in a way consistent with Orthodox
> The MP as a structure cannot be the Church, but is a false Church.
practice? I would not take issue with this statement on your part if
you had prefaced it with, "In my opinion" -- but you make it a
statement of fact.
> WeWhen and where did the MP declare Lenin to be a saint? I will grant
> do not speak here about a personal sin, but about the essence of the
> organisation's teaching. If an organisation, even one that claims
> apostolic succession would teach that Lenin is a saint, that
> organisation could not be the Church, because that teaching, even if
> never declared to be a heresy, would be a heresy.
that there may well have been individuals, even groups, who might hold
such a ridiculous view -- but they do not speak for the Church.
> Buddhism or communism are not heresies, because they have noIf this is true, then you must also beleive that the Orthodoxy of the
> relationship to orthodoxy. Sergianism is a heresy, because it is a
> distorted orthodoxy.
Patriarchate of Constantinople has been a distorted one, and therefore
heretical, since 1453. If this is true, then you must also believe
that the Orthodoxy of the Church of Russia has been a distorted one
since the time that Peter I abolished the Patriarchate, and brought
the Church under the control of the State.
> Your position is confused and dangerous, because"Brotherly love" is a false pretext? My position is confused and
> it contributes to the adulteration of orthodoxy, as usually under the
> false pretext of brotherly love.
dangerous? I think not. I think if one reads the Gospels, it will
become fairly obvious that "brotherly love" has a much higher
acceptance than the practices of the Pharisees.
>I am not encouraging anyone to join a sergianist organization.
> It is a mistake for a priest to confuse believers in encouraging them
> to join a sergianist orgnaisation under te false pretext that Pat
> Tikhon too committed the sin of sergianism.
Neither did I say that St. Tikhon, Patriarch of Moscow, sinned; or
that he committed "sergianism."
> The MP as a structure, having lost apostolic succession for teachingThis is your opinion; you are certainly entitled to think this way, if
> a false orthodoxy and failing to renounce that false teaching after
> the end of persecutions cannot be the Church.
you choose to do so. Our ROCOR bishops do not agree with your
position; and, as I serve in ROCOR, I will follow their directions.
If you find that you cannot do so, may God bless and help you on your
journey. However, which would be a better course of action for each
of us to follow with respect to each other as we each do our best to
go the way we believe God is leading us: to pray for God's mercy for
each other? Or to speak in terms that, under the guise of expressing
spiritual concern, are actually ones of criticism and condemnation? I
am not saying that you will do the latter; but that has certainly been
my experience of this from others who have advanced opinions parallel
to the ones you have expressed about the ROC-MP -- so you will
understand if I am a bit apprehensive.
unworthy Priest John McCuen
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