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13082Re: [orthodox-synod]Advocating secession!?  Was: A bout the  MP

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  • Rev. Sergei Overt
    Nov 30, 2004
      Dear Fr. George,
      You are also right that Saint Tikhon, the holy patriarch
      and confessor of Moscow did indeed anathematize
      the Bolsheviks and asked the faithful not to
      have any dealings with them. Not to support
      them.

      Here are his exact words:

      ...." with the power invested in us by God, we
      forbid you to partake of the holy Mysteries.
      We anathematize you...."
      (He is referring to Bolsheviks)

      ".......We invoke the faithful children of the Orthodox
      Church to never have any dealings with such
      tyrants of the human race."
      from his Epistle of January 19,1918

      Respectfully,
      Fr. Sergei


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Fr. George Primak" <primaks@...>
      To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 7:46 PM
      Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod]Advocating secession!? Was: About the MP


      >
      > Dear Fr. Sergei,
      > You are right Patriarch Tikhon did not EVER anathematize the MP, but as I
      > understand the "sobor" who elected him did anathematize all those who
      > colaborate with godless soviet regime (which includes MP).
      > With love in Christ,
      > Fr. George
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Rev. Sergei Overt" <frsovert@...>
      > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 7:24 AM
      > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod]Advocating secession!? Was: About the MP
      >
      >
      > >
      > > Holy Patriarch TIkhon did not EVER anathematize
      > > the MP (Moscow Patriarchate).
      > > This is totally untrue.
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "michael nikitin" <nikitinmike@...>
      > > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Cc: <dimitradd@...>
      > > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 10:18 AM
      > > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod]Advocating secession!? Was: About the MP
      > >
      > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > New Martyrs were martyrs because they refused to recognize
      > > > Metr. Sergius and MP as a Church.
      > > > We know that Patr. Tikhon anathematized the MP.
      > > > St. Joseph of Petrograd is the new martyr who was not
      > > > canonized as Saint by MP because
      > > > he organized the Catacomb Church and Anathematized the MP.
      > > >
      > > > Michael N
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ddd <dimitradd@...> wrote: Dear Vladimir,
      > > > Of course, I did not have to read between any lines--it was
      > > perfectly obvious you were trying to use one person's words against
      > another.
      > > I could easily do the same with the anti-rapprochement camp. As a
      matter
      > of
      > > fact, according to St. Kyrill of Kazan -- a NEW MARTYR -- there were as
      > many
      > > opinions about what to do about the Soviets and Metr. Sergius as there
      > were
      > > clergy and people. He himself, for example, refused to call the Moscow
      > > Patriarchate's mysteries "graceless," even saying "God forbid" that one
      > > should say that, while other hierarchs, also Martyrs like St. Kyrill,
      came
      > > out and categorically did so.
      > > > You didn't read between *my* lines--I was attempting to show
      that
      > > differences of opinion or expression between individuals is precisely
      why
      > we
      > > have *committees* -- on both sides -- working on this, and not just this
      > > individual or that individual. In turn, the committees present their
      work
      > > to yet another group, the respective Synods and/or Sobors. That is why
      I
      > > consider trying to pit one individual's words against another to be not
      of
      > a
      > > conciliar spirit.
      > > >
      > > > I am in the process right now of trying to restore everything to
      a
      > > new system in the aftermath of a dead laptop, so I cannot respond right
      > away
      > > to all of your points right now, much as I would like. But just to your
      > one
      > > point below, for example. The Moscow Patriarchate did *officially, in
      > > sobor* say that people must choose confession of the Faith over the
      State
      > if
      > > the State were to try to force them to go against their Faith. That is
      > > renunciation of "sergianism." Now, is it officially, in Sobor,
      glorifying
      > > Metr. Sergius? If not, then you are comparing apples and oranges. If
      the
      > > Russian hierarchs of the early 20th century could not agree on Metr.
      > > Sergius, do you really expect ones coming a whole century after them to
      be
      > > more in agreement? But it is what the whole committee, the whole synod,
      > the
      > > whole sobor decides that is what counts.
      > > >
      > > > As to your statement:
      > > >
      > > > >The new version of
      > > > > the facts which is being prepared for us is that "**some** of the
      > > > > new martyrs were against Met Sergius". Is this not a preparation to
      > > > > have us accept sergianism?
      > > >
      > > > There is nothing *new* about the *fact* that some of the New Martyrs,
      > even
      > > those on our Jordanville icon, did not break with Metr. Sergius. Fr.
      > > Alexander Lebedev pointed this out once. I think the *new* line is the
      > > idea that in order to be a new martyr, you had also to break with Metr.
      > > Sergius. That would mean that Metr. Philaret of blessed memory and the
      > > Sobor of 1974 was wrong in calling the MP chalice the "Body and Blood of
      > > Christ." see below, a quote from Fr. Alexander Lebedev.
      > > >
      > > > "From the Official Epistle of the Hierarchical Sobor, dated June 4/17,
      > > > 1964, signed by Metropolitan Philaret and all of the bishops of the
      > Church
      > > > Abroad, which clearly demonstrates that grace and the Holy Mysteries
      > abide
      > > > in the Moscow Patriarchate:
      > > >
      > > > "They [the god-opposing Communists] have contrived a new, truly
      > diabolical
      > > > plan in their war against the faithful: it is now forbidden by the
      > godless
      > > > government of the USSR for children and young men and women from the
      > ages
      > > > of 3 to 18 to be allowed into God's churches and to be communed with
      the
      > > > Body and Blood of Christ. And in order to mock the Church even more,
      > this
      > > > directive by the authorities has to be enforced by the clergymen
      > > themselves
      > > > -- they are the ones who must prohibit youth from approaching the
      > Chalice
      > > > of Christ and demand the removal of children and youth from the
      > churches".
      > > >
      > > > __________
      > > > When I was first examining the whole issue myself, these words clearly
      > > meant to me that Metr. Philaret and the Sobor of '74 viewed the Moscow
      > > Patriarchate as part of the Russian Church -- "God's churches"! And the
      > > priests were called "clergyment" and not just today's "agents in
      riassas."
      > > Obviously they (Metr. Philaret and 1974 Sobor) had the ability to not
      > "throw
      > > the baby out with the bath water," as the old New England expression
      says.
      > > Old as that expression is, I think it contains an incredible amount of
      > > wisdom.
      > > >
      > > > Well, I have already spent WAY too much time on this post. Please
      don't
      > > get more going till I've had time to finish answering the rest of the
      > post,
      > > which might not be till later in the week. If other people want to take
      > > this on, fine. It just gets never-ending and I find that very
      > > time-consuming and frustrating.
      > > >
      > > > Which was the WHOLE POINT of my last post -- the needlessness and
      > > counterproductivity of these debates when our clergy and hierarchs are
      > > working very hard on the issues, and WITH OUR CONCERNS IN MIND.
      Vladimir,
      > > don't you consider God's hierarchs to be "the people of God," too?
      > > >
      > > > --Dimitra
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > Subject: Re: Advocating secession!? Was: About the MP
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Dear Dimitra,
      > > > >
      > > > > I thought you would be able to read between my lines. I just drew
      > > > > the List's attention to the innumerable contradictions in the camp
      > > > > of the union supporters.
      > > > >
      > > > > Father Lebedeff says that the MP has renounced sergianism, but
      > > > > there are talks about canonising Met Sergius. The new version of
      > > > > the facts which is being prepared for us is that "**some** of the
      > > > > new martyrs were against Met Sergius". Is this not a preparation to
      > > > > have us accept sergianism?
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ---------------------------------
      > > > Do you Yahoo!?
      > > > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
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