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13078Re: [orthodox-synod]Advocating secession!?  Was: A bout the  MP

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  • Fr. George Primak
    Nov 30, 2004
      Dear Fr. Sergei,
      You are right Patriarch Tikhon did not EVER anathematize the MP, but as I
      understand the "sobor" who elected him did anathematize all those who
      colaborate with godless soviet regime (which includes MP).
      With love in Christ,
      Fr. George

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Rev. Sergei Overt" <frsovert@...>
      To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 7:24 AM
      Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod]Advocating secession!? Was: About the MP


      >
      > Holy Patriarch TIkhon did not EVER anathematize
      > the MP (Moscow Patriarchate).
      > This is totally untrue.
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "michael nikitin" <nikitinmike@...>
      > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
      > Cc: <dimitradd@...>
      > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 10:18 AM
      > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod]Advocating secession!? Was: About the MP
      >
      >
      > >
      > >
      > > New Martyrs were martyrs because they refused to recognize
      > > Metr. Sergius and MP as a Church.
      > > We know that Patr. Tikhon anathematized the MP.
      > > St. Joseph of Petrograd is the new martyr who was not
      > > canonized as Saint by MP because
      > > he organized the Catacomb Church and Anathematized the MP.
      > >
      > > Michael N
      > >
      > >
      > > ddd <dimitradd@...> wrote: Dear Vladimir,
      > > Of course, I did not have to read between any lines--it was
      > perfectly obvious you were trying to use one person's words against
      another.
      > I could easily do the same with the anti-rapprochement camp. As a matter
      of
      > fact, according to St. Kyrill of Kazan -- a NEW MARTYR -- there were as
      many
      > opinions about what to do about the Soviets and Metr. Sergius as there
      were
      > clergy and people. He himself, for example, refused to call the Moscow
      > Patriarchate's mysteries "graceless," even saying "God forbid" that one
      > should say that, while other hierarchs, also Martyrs like St. Kyrill, came
      > out and categorically did so.
      > > You didn't read between *my* lines--I was attempting to show that
      > differences of opinion or expression between individuals is precisely why
      we
      > have *committees* -- on both sides -- working on this, and not just this
      > individual or that individual. In turn, the committees present their work
      > to yet another group, the respective Synods and/or Sobors. That is why I
      > consider trying to pit one individual's words against another to be not of
      a
      > conciliar spirit.
      > >
      > > I am in the process right now of trying to restore everything to a
      > new system in the aftermath of a dead laptop, so I cannot respond right
      away
      > to all of your points right now, much as I would like. But just to your
      one
      > point below, for example. The Moscow Patriarchate did *officially, in
      > sobor* say that people must choose confession of the Faith over the State
      if
      > the State were to try to force them to go against their Faith. That is
      > renunciation of "sergianism." Now, is it officially, in Sobor, glorifying
      > Metr. Sergius? If not, then you are comparing apples and oranges. If the
      > Russian hierarchs of the early 20th century could not agree on Metr.
      > Sergius, do you really expect ones coming a whole century after them to be
      > more in agreement? But it is what the whole committee, the whole synod,
      the
      > whole sobor decides that is what counts.
      > >
      > > As to your statement:
      > >
      > > >The new version of
      > > > the facts which is being prepared for us is that "**some** of the
      > > > new martyrs were against Met Sergius". Is this not a preparation to
      > > > have us accept sergianism?
      > >
      > > There is nothing *new* about the *fact* that some of the New Martyrs,
      even
      > those on our Jordanville icon, did not break with Metr. Sergius. Fr.
      > Alexander Lebedev pointed this out once. I think the *new* line is the
      > idea that in order to be a new martyr, you had also to break with Metr.
      > Sergius. That would mean that Metr. Philaret of blessed memory and the
      > Sobor of 1974 was wrong in calling the MP chalice the "Body and Blood of
      > Christ." see below, a quote from Fr. Alexander Lebedev.
      > >
      > > "From the Official Epistle of the Hierarchical Sobor, dated June 4/17,
      > > 1964, signed by Metropolitan Philaret and all of the bishops of the
      Church
      > > Abroad, which clearly demonstrates that grace and the Holy Mysteries
      abide
      > > in the Moscow Patriarchate:
      > >
      > > "They [the god-opposing Communists] have contrived a new, truly
      diabolical
      > > plan in their war against the faithful: it is now forbidden by the
      godless
      > > government of the USSR for children and young men and women from the
      ages
      > > of 3 to 18 to be allowed into God's churches and to be communed with the
      > > Body and Blood of Christ. And in order to mock the Church even more,
      this
      > > directive by the authorities has to be enforced by the clergymen
      > themselves
      > > -- they are the ones who must prohibit youth from approaching the
      Chalice
      > > of Christ and demand the removal of children and youth from the
      churches".
      > >
      > > __________
      > > When I was first examining the whole issue myself, these words clearly
      > meant to me that Metr. Philaret and the Sobor of '74 viewed the Moscow
      > Patriarchate as part of the Russian Church -- "God's churches"! And the
      > priests were called "clergyment" and not just today's "agents in riassas."
      > Obviously they (Metr. Philaret and 1974 Sobor) had the ability to not
      "throw
      > the baby out with the bath water," as the old New England expression says.
      > Old as that expression is, I think it contains an incredible amount of
      > wisdom.
      > >
      > > Well, I have already spent WAY too much time on this post. Please don't
      > get more going till I've had time to finish answering the rest of the
      post,
      > which might not be till later in the week. If other people want to take
      > this on, fine. It just gets never-ending and I find that very
      > time-consuming and frustrating.
      > >
      > > Which was the WHOLE POINT of my last post -- the needlessness and
      > counterproductivity of these debates when our clergy and hierarchs are
      > working very hard on the issues, and WITH OUR CONCERNS IN MIND. Vladimir,
      > don't you consider God's hierarchs to be "the people of God," too?
      > >
      > > --Dimitra
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > > Subject: Re: Advocating secession!? Was: About the MP
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Dear Dimitra,
      > > >
      > > > I thought you would be able to read between my lines. I just drew
      > > > the List's attention to the innumerable contradictions in the camp
      > > > of the union supporters.
      > > >
      > > > Father Lebedeff says that the MP has renounced sergianism, but
      > > > there are talks about canonising Met Sergius. The new version of
      > > > the facts which is being prepared for us is that "**some** of the
      > > > new martyrs were against Met Sergius". Is this not a preparation to
      > > > have us accept sergianism?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ---------------------------------
      > > Do you Yahoo!?
      > > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
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