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One final thought in response to Fr. Spyridon

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  • Fr. John Whiteford
    A Texas saying: You don t learn nothing new the *second* time you get kick by a mule. -Fr. John Whiteford
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 8, 2001
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      A Texas saying:

      You don't learn nothing new the *second* time you get kick by a mule.\

      -Fr. John Whiteford
    • StefanVPavlenko@netscape.net
      In his eye-witness account posted on Mr. Budzilovich s web page a Bishop of Sacramento, one monk Vladimir of the new so-called ROCIE jurisdiction, states
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 9, 2001
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        In his "eye-witness" account posted on Mr. Budzilovich's web page
        a "Bishop" of Sacramento, one monk Vladimir of the new so-called
        ROCIE jurisdiction, states that only one person was allowed to stay
        with Metropolitan Vitaly at the hospital. He then very pointedly
        claims that "his secretary stayed with him and we quietly left for
        home." In this account no mention of Father Spyridon is made at this
        point.
        Also one should note that when the police drove the Metropolitan to
        the hospital his secretary went with him in the car and not one of
        the Monastery monks or clergy entered the car. Canons were quoted to
        show how wrong it is for even clergy to touch or hold on to a Bishop.
        Bishop Michael is chastised for holding on to the Metropolitans hands
        in pleading mercy when he was being unjustly ANATHAMETIZED, and yet
        no cannons are quoted against Rasnianskaya constantly handling Vl.
        Vitaly. The armed police in the church and Altar are mentioned and
        yet when armed police where brought to the Synod by Rasnianskaya in
        NY this was not deemed a scandal. The police found the Church in
        Mansonville to be locked, once that was determined by them, actions
        began to follow "event procedures" and Bishop Michael can not be
        blamed for them and yet he is. Had the Metropolitan been locked in a
        room or the Altar in Synod the police would be obliged to knock or
        break down the door! This just didn't happen in Synod. And yet in
        Mansonville it is cause to again unjustly accuse Bishop Michael.
        Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
      • UPB_MONIODIS@ONLINE.EMICH.EDU
        ... What s your point? That Fr Spyridon wasn t even Why not just *ask a question* and get the needed to detail, rather than insinuating? ... And the point
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 9, 2001
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          --- In orthodox-rocor@y..., StefanVPavlenko@n... wrote:

          > In his "eye-witness" account posted on Mr. Budzilovich's web page
          > a "Bishop" of Sacramento, one monk Vladimir of the new so-called
          > ROCE jurisdiction, states that only one person was allowed to stay
          > with Metropolitan Vitaly at the hospital. He then very pointedly
          > claims that "his secretary stayed with him and we quietly left for
          > home." In this account no mention of Father Spyridon is made at
          > this point.

          What's your point? That Fr Spyridon wasn't even Why not just *ask
          a question* and get the needed to detail, rather than insinuating?

          > Also one should note that when the police drove the Metropolitan to
          > the hospital his secretary went with him in the car and not one of
          > the Monastery monks or clergy entered the car. Canons were quoted
          > to show how wrong it is for even clergy to touch or hold on to a
          > Bishop.
          > Bishop Michael is chastised for holding on to the Metropolitans
          > hands in pleading mercy when he was being unjustly ANATHAMETIZED,
          > and yet no cannons [sic] are quoted against Rasnianskaya constantly
          > handling Vl. Vitaly.

          And the point is that what?--that she was having a sexual
          relationship with Metr. Vitaly? Or, was she trying to induce
          insanity or murder him with "powerful drugs." Just say what you're
          trying to say.

          To falsely imprison a bishop is an anathematizable action. Confer
          the canons.

          > The armed police in the church and Altar are mentioned and
          > yet when armed police where brought to the Synod by Rasnianskaya in
          > NY this was not deemed a scandal.

          Didn't she bring them to the sidewalk outside the Synod? And didn't
          the police *ask permission* to enter, and it was the Synod
          authorities that granted it?

          > The police found the Church in Mansonville
          > to be locked, once that was determined by them, actions began
          > to follow "event procedures" and Bishop Michael cannot be blamed
          > for them and yet he is.

          Wasn't he the one who summoned them to take the Metropolitan into
          custody? If he didn't summon them, the tragic events would not have
          followed.

          > Had the Metropolitan been locked in a
          > room or the Altar in Synod the police would be obliged to knock or
          > break down the door!

          Or....they could have just *ask* him to come out!

          > This just didn't happen in Synod.

          Because....the Metropolitan came out!

          > And yet in
          > Mansonville it is cause to again unjustly accuse Bishop Michael.

          Oh, yes. The Synod _dropped_ their bogus "kidnapping" charge--the
          one that took place in the presence of the police, where he returned
          home.

          The arrest of His Eminence is a tragedy, uncanonical, and warrants an
          investigation against its perpetrators.

          Polychronios
        • Fr. John R. Shaw
          ... Fr. Spyridon said that he was making a once-only posting and did not intend to comment further: this seems to preclude just asking a question and getting
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 9, 2001
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            On Fri, 9 Nov 2001 UPB_MONIODIS@... wrote:

            > --- In orthodox-rocor@y..., StefanVPavlenko@n... wrote:
            >
            > > In his "eye-witness" account posted on Mr. Budzilovich's web page
            > > a "Bishop" of Sacramento, one monk Vladimir of the new so-called
            > > ROCE jurisdiction, states that only one person was allowed to stay
            > > with Metropolitan Vitaly at the hospital. He then very pointedly
            > > claims that "his secretary stayed with him and we quietly left for
            > > home." In this account no mention of Father Spyridon is made at
            > > this point.
            >
            > What's your point? That Fr Spyridon wasn't even Why not just *ask
            > a question* and get the needed to detail, rather than insinuating?

            Fr. Spyridon said that he was making a once-only posting and did
            not intend to comment further: this seems to preclude "just asking a
            question and getting an answer".

            If, in fact, "one person" was left with the Metropolitan, and that
            one person as "security", the obvious implication is that Fr. Spyridon
            must have been that one person--and must, consequently, be someone they
            considered "their own".

            It would seem to me, that that is the point.

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw
          • StefanVPavlenko@netscape.net
            YOU: What s your point? That Fr Spyridon wasn t even Why not just *ask ... ME: What s my point, a so called Bishop claims that Rasnianskaya stayed with the
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 9, 2001
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              YOU:> What's your point? That Fr Spyridon wasn't even Why not just
              *ask
              > a question* and get the needed to detail, rather than insinuating?

              ME: What's my point, a so called Bishop claims that Rasnianskaya
              stayed with the Metropolitan in the hospital, Father Spirydon said he
              stayed with him, a very important detail considering that
              Rasnianskaya is the center of attention when it comes to the question
              why is a woman in such a position of authority and control?


              YOU:> And the point is that what?--that she was having a sexual
              > relationship with Metr. Vitaly? Or, was she trying to induce
              > insanity or murder him with "powerful drugs." Just say what you're
              > trying to say.

              ME: Those whose heart is unclean think unclean! The woman wields
              authority over the aged man and is always in the center of events,
              monks and priest should be doing the work of "Kileinik" not this
              person. Metropolitan Anastassy never sat in the same car with a woman
              and did not allow and situation occur that could be misconstrued.

              YOU:To falsely imprison a bishop is an anathematizable action.
              Confer
              > the canons.
              >
              MINE FROM BEFORE:> > The armed police in the church and Altar are
              mentioned and
              > > yet when armed police where brought to the Synod by Rasnianskaya
              in
              > > NY this was not deemed a scandal.
              >
              YOU: > Didn't she bring them to the sidewalk outside the Synod? And
              didn't
              > the police *ask permission* to enter, and it was the Synod
              > authorities that granted it?

              ME: >>>THAT IS THE POINT!<<<, at Synod the police were given
              immediate and free access to the Metropolitan. At Mansonville the
              CHURCH DOOR WAS LOCKED!!!!
              MINE FROM BEFORE:> > The police found the Church in Mansonville
              > > to be locked, once that was determined by them, actions began
              > > to follow "event procedures" and Bishop Michael cannot be blamed
              > > for them and yet he is.
              >
              YOU:> Wasn't he the one who summoned them to take the Metropolitan
              into
              > custody? If he didn't summon them, the tragic events would not
              have
              > followed.
              ME: Polychroni....New York State Police can not be called to Canada,
              they came because the State of New York was obliged to determine the
              Metropolitan's condition. Rasnianskaya started this by calling the
              Police in NY city.
              MINE FROM BEFORE:> > Had the Metropolitan been locked in a
              > > room or the Altar in Synod the police would be obliged to knock
              or
              > > break down the door!
              YOU:> Or....they could have just *ask* him to come out!
              ME: When police arrive and attempt to see a person and he is kept
              from them the do what they have to, are you a little slow
              YOU:Because....the Metropolitan came out!
              ME: Yes at Synod >>>know one kept him from coming out<<< at
              Mansonville he remained in the ALTAR and DID NOT COME OUT, how simple
              is that to understand?
              MINE FROM BEFORE:> > And yet in Mansonville it is cause to again
              unjustly accuse Bishop Michael.
              >
              YOU: Oh, yes. The Synod _dropped_ their bogus "kidnapping" charge--
              the
              > one that took place in the presence of the police, where he
              returned home.
              >
              ME: He was safe and unhurt at Synod, he was spirited away my a wolf
              in sheeps clothing Father Vladimir Shishkoff, pretending to come to
              the old Metropolitans aid.

              YOU: The arrest of His Eminence is a tragedy, uneconomical, and
              warrants an
              > investigation against its perpetrators.
              ME: Being taken into protective custody and being ARRESTED, are two
              different things.
              >
              > Polychronios, God help you, child!
              Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
            • Fr. John R. Shaw
              ... Wolves in sheep s clothing are of course disturbing enough; abut a wolf in *shepherd s* clothing is downright dangerous. ... The strange thing about all
              Message 6 of 6 , Nov 10, 2001
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                On Sat, 10 Nov 2001 StefanVPavlenko@... wrote:

                > ME: He was safe and unhurt at Synod, he was spirited away my a wolf
                > in sheeps clothing Father Vladimir Shishkoff, pretending to come to
                > the old Metropolitans aid.

                "Wolves in sheep's clothing" are of course disturbing enough; abut
                a wolf in *shepherd's* clothing is downright dangerous.
                >
                The strange thing about all of this is that, so far as I know,
                Polychronios does not and did not belong to ROCOR--but to the Greek
                Archdiocese.

                It wonders me that he should take such a partisan stance in regard
                to matters that are "no skin off his Hellenic nose"...

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw
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