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Re: [orthodox-rocor] World court finds Serbia innocent of genocide charge

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  • Infowolf1@aol.com
    In a message dated 3/2/2007 4:35:51 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, aggreen1@yahoo.com writes: ***Note: I m posting this because ROCOR s long-standing communion
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 3, 2007
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      In a message dated 3/2/2007 4:35:51 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, aggreen1@... writes:
      ***Note: I'm posting this because ROCOR's long-standing communion
      with the Church of Serbia, and because of the excessive negative
      publicity on the web concerning Serbian Christians. --Al
               According to the article, Serbia was found guilty of not preventing
               or trying to prevent the genocide.
       
              And those weren't Christians. Those were nominal at best, and about
              80% don't attend church. That is from an Orthodox online source.
              The tendency to baptize local custom went too far and they think
              whatever a Serb does is, therefore, Christian. That Serbian interests
              are identical with those of The Kingdom of Heaven. (not unlike the
              American semi Christian Right, heavily compromised with Nazis
              and Moon's false messiah cult.)
       
              The Serbian Church seems to have been deceived for a few generations
              now into making such equations, but then, their priests and bishops
              come out of the local population, with local baggage, assumptions,
              and acceptance of the unacceptable, I guess. I fear they have been
              infected with the glamour spells cast by romantic history writers.
       
              And don't think that the routine exorcism that may or may not be
              done at some point during a baptism and chrismation is guaranteed
              to hold for life no matter what - full scale exorcisms sometimes even
              when effective, have to be repeated, as Jesus warns, the Thing comes
              back to check out the house he has been cast out of. If he can, he
              will enter it again.
       
       
              If they were Christian they would not have acted with such greed
              and ambition aside from the issue of atrocities. A few caught up
              in this DID show some decency.
       
              
              Indeed, during the time this went on I was watching the news
              as it all developed.  And Serbia was releasing men from its army
              so they could go and be volunteers in Bosnia and the Krajina.
              The ideological and romance of fiction and poetry type rabble
              rousing definitely came out of Serbia, that Karadzic character.
       
              The news about Serbian activities did not come out all at once,
              it took a while. And one of the main doctors who saw the evidence
              of the mass rapes and prepared reports was HIMSELF ethnic
              Serbian.
       
              One of the Christian minority ("by their fruits you shall know them")
              among the Serbs, I guess.
       
              So maybe you can consider that there is something to all this,
              since the accusers include a Serb.
       
              Last heard, the three commanders who demanded systematic mass
              rapes by their men, were in hiding in Russia.
       
              Mary Christine Erikson




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    • Bosko Jovanovic
      What u know about Serbian History? Infowolf1@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 3/2/2007 4:35:51 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, aggreen1@yahoo.com
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 3, 2007
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        What u know about Serbian History?

        Infowolf1@... wrote:
        In a message dated 3/2/2007 4:35:51 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, aggreen1@yahoo. com writes:
        ***Note: I'm posting this because ROCOR's long-standing communion
        with the Church of Serbia, and because of the excessive negative
        publicity on the web concerning Serbian Christians. --Al
                 According to the article, Serbia was found guilty of not preventing
                 or trying to prevent the genocide.
         
                And those weren't Christians. Those were nominal at best, and about
                80% don't attend church. That is from an Orthodox online source.
                The tendency to baptize local custom went too far and they think
                whatever a Serb does is, therefore, Christian. That Serbian interests
                are identical with those of The Kingdom of Heaven. (not unlike the
                American semi Christian Right, heavily compromised with Nazis
                and Moon's false messiah cult.)
         
                The Serbian Church seems to have been deceived for a few generations
                now into making such equations, but then, their priests and bishops
                come out of the local population, with local baggage, assumptions,
                and acceptance of the unacceptable, I guess. I fear they have been
                infected with the glamour spells cast by romantic history writers.
         
                And don't think that the routine exorcism that may or may not be
                done at some point during a baptism and chrismation is guaranteed
                to hold for life no matter what - full scale exorcisms sometimes even
                when effective, have to be repeated, as Jesus warns, the Thing comes
                back to check out the house he has been cast out of. If he can, he
                will enter it again.
         
         
                If they were Christian they would not have acted with such greed
                and ambition aside from the issue of atrocities. A few caught up
                in this DID show some decency.
         
                
                Indeed, during the time this went on I was watching the news
                as it all developed.  And Serbia was releasing men from its army
                so they could go and be volunteers in Bosnia and the Krajina.
                The ideological and romance of fiction and poetry type rabble
                rousing definitely came out of Serbia, that Karadzic character.
         
                The news about Serbian activities did not come out all at once,
                it took a while. And one of the main doctors who saw the evidence
                of the mass rapes and prepared reports was HIMSELF ethnic
                Serbian.
         
                One of the Christian minority ("by their fruits you shall know them")
                among the Serbs, I guess.
         
                So maybe you can consider that there is something to all this,
                since the accusers include a Serb.
         
                Last heard, the three commanders who demanded systematic mass
                rapes by their men, were in hiding in Russia.
         
                Mary Christine Erikson




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      • Dimitra Dwelley
        I am completely amazed that on an Orthodox Christian list, we do not see compassion for our Orthodox Serbian brethren, and how they have been bombed, murdered,
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 3, 2007
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          I am completely amazed that on an Orthodox Christian list, we do not see compassion for our Orthodox Serbian brethren, and how they have been bombed, murdered, and raped.  Oh--and with all their centuries-old churches destroyed, too.  Yawn.  Just another day here where it's safe?
           
          --Dimitra Dwelley

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: "Infowolf1@..." <Infowolf1@...>
          To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2007 6:04:52 AM
          Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] World court finds Serbia innocent of genocide charge

          In a message dated 3/2/2007 4:35:51 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, aggreen1@yahoo. com writes:
          ***Note: I'm posting this because ROCOR's long-standing communion
          with the Church of Serbia, and because of the excessive negative
          publicity on the web concerning Serbian Christians. --Al
                   According to the article, Serbia was found guilty of not preventing
                   or trying to prevent the genocide.
           
                  
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        • Hristofor/ХристофорЪ
          Please see the following sites: Video If only there was more bread In Serbian with English subs:
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 3, 2007
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            Please see the following sites:

            Video "If only there was more bread" In Serbian with English subs:
            http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9038995592224219564&q=if+there+was+more+bread

            This site, in Russian, is an article based on work by a French journalist, Gerard Ville (sp?), that the tragic fire at Hilendar was set by British special forces. (After the repatriation at Lienz in 1945, nothing would surprise me about the Brits.):
            http://rusk.ru/newsdata.php?idar=104764

            On the Jasenovac Concentration Camp:
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8VnVpOIXT0

            Pt II:
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hAHsUaSKGI

            Also, this was just posted to the Orthodox-synod list, re: the approaching 24 March Anniversary of the NATO bombing:
            As the Eighth Anniversary of the NATO bombing of Serbia is coming around you
            may wish to look at the pictures and remember the innocent slaughter of
            almost 2000 Orthodox, including 90 children. Tsarstvo im
            nebesnoje.Vechnajapamjat!

            One of the most poignant: Serbian refugees from Croatia killed by NATO bombs
            in Kosovo
            http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/kosovo_crisis/destruction_exhibition/38.html

            Exodus of Serbian refugees from Kosovo:
            http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/kosovo_crisis/Exodus/

            The whole Serbian Unity Congress Photo Exhibition
            http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/kosovo_crisis/destruction_exhibition/index.html

            Anti-war art
            http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/kosovo_crisis/nato/art/

            Photos of the bombings:
            http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/kosovo_crisis/destruction_exhibition/1.html

            NB! Alas these pictures are located on a site dedicated to the memory of
            Slobodan Miloshevich. Pls ignore that fact. I in no way agree or support his
            past activities!
            http://slobodan-memoria.narod.ru/nato.htm


            ----- Original Message ----
            From: "Infowolf1@... " <Infowolf1@...>
            To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2007 6:04:52 AM
            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] World court finds Serbia innocent of genocide charge

            In a message dated 3/2/2007 4:35:51 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, aggreen1@yahoo. com writes:
            ***Note: I'm posting this because ROCOR's long-standing communion
            with the Church of Serbia, and because of the excessive negative
            publicity on the web concerning Serbian Christians. --Al
                     According to the article, Serbia was found guilty of not preventing
                     or trying to prevent the genocide.
             
                    


          • Bosko Jovanovic
            www.srpska-mreza.com Hristofor/ХристофорЪ wrote: Please see the following sites: Video If only there was more
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 3, 2007
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              www.srpska-mreza.com

              Hristofor/ХристофорЪ <hristofor01@...> wrote:
              Please see the following sites:

              Video "If only there was more bread" In Serbian with English subs:
              http://video. google.com/ videoplay? docid=-903899559 2224219564&q=if+there+was+ more+bread

              This site, in Russian, is an article based on work by a French journalist, Gerard Ville (sp?), that the tragic fire at Hilendar was set by British special forces. (After the repatriation at Lienz in 1945, nothing would surprise me about the Brits.):
              http://rusk. ru/newsdata. php?idar= 104764

              On the Jasenovac Concentration Camp:
              http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=v8VnVpOIXT0

              Pt II:
              http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=1hAHsUaSKGI

              Also, this was just posted to the Orthodox-synod list, re: the approaching 24 March Anniversary of the NATO bombing:
              As the Eighth Anniversary of the NATO bombing of Serbia is coming around you
              may wish to look at the pictures and remember the innocent slaughter of
              almost 2000 Orthodox, including 90 children. Tsarstvo im
              nebesnoje.Vechnajap amjat!

              One of the most poignant: Serbian refugees from Croatia killed by NATO bombs
              in Kosovo
              http://www.balkan- archive.org. yu/kosovo_ crisis/destructi on_exhibition/ 38.html

              Exodus of Serbian refugees from Kosovo:
              http://www.balkan- archive.org. yu/kosovo_ crisis/Exodus/

              The whole Serbian Unity Congress Photo Exhibition
              http://www.balkan- archive.org. yu/kosovo_ crisis/destructi on_exhibition/ index.html

              Anti-war art
              http://www.balkan- archive.org. yu/kosovo_ crisis/nato/ art/

              Photos of the bombings:
              http://www.balkan- archive.org. yu/kosovo_ crisis/destructi on_exhibition/ 1.html

              NB! Alas these pictures are located on a site dedicated to the memory of
              Slobodan Miloshevich. Pls ignore that fact. I in no way agree or support his
              past activities!
              http://slobodan- memoria.narod. ru/nato.htm


              ----- Original Message ----
              From: " Infowolf1@aol. com " <Infowolf1@aol. com>
              To: orthodox-rocor@ yahoogroups. com
              Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2007 6:04:52 AM
              Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] World court finds Serbia innocent of genocide charge

              In a message dated 3/2/2007 4:35:51 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, aggreen1@yahoo. com writes:
              ***Note: I'm posting this because ROCOR's long-standing communion
              with the Church of Serbia, and because of the excessive negative
              publicity on the web concerning Serbian Christians. --Al
                       According to the article, Serbia was found guilty of not preventing
                       or trying to prevent the genocide.
               
                      




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            • Al Green
              ***Just so you know, Bosko, Mary Christine has never written (to my knowledge) on any list on which we are both members, anything positive about Serbia or
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 3, 2007
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                ***Just so you know, Bosko, Mary Christine has never written (to my
                knowledge) on any list on which we are both members, anything
                positive about Serbia or Serbians or the Serbian Orthodox Church. He
                bias ixs to such an exreme that if one Serb does something bad, all
                Serbians are guilty.

                Al


                --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Bosko Jovanovic
                <jovanovicbosko@...> wrote:
                >
                > What u know about Serbian History?
                >
                > Infowolf1@... wrote: In a message dated 3/2/2007
                4:35:51 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, aggreen1@... writes:
                > ***Note: I'm posting this because ROCOR's long-standing communion
                > with the Church of Serbia, and because of the excessive negative
                > publicity on the web concerning Serbian Christians. --Al
                >
                >
                > According to the article, Serbia was found guilty of not
                preventing
                > or trying to prevent the genocide.
                >
                > And those weren't Christians. Those were nominal at best,
                and about
                > 80% don't attend church. That is from an Orthodox online
                source.
                > The tendency to baptize local custom went too far and
                they think
                > whatever a Serb does is, therefore, Christian. That
                Serbian interests
                > are identical with those of The Kingdom of Heaven. (not
                unlike the
                > American semi Christian Right, heavily compromised with
                Nazis
                > and Moon's false messiah cult.)
                >
                > The Serbian Church seems to have been deceived for a few
                generations
                > now into making such equations, but then, their priests
                and bishops
                > come out of the local population, with local baggage,
                assumptions,
                > and acceptance of the unacceptable, I guess. I fear they
                have been
                > infected with the glamour spells cast by romantic history
                writers.
                >
                > And don't think that the routine exorcism that may or may
                not be
                > done at some point during a baptism and chrismation is
                guaranteed
                > to hold for life no matter what - full scale exorcisms
                sometimes even
                > when effective, have to be repeated, as Jesus warns, the
                Thing comes
                > back to check out the house he has been cast out of. If
                he can, he
                > will enter it again.
                >
                >
                > If they were Christian they would not have acted with
                such greed
                > and ambition aside from the issue of atrocities. A few
                caught up
                > in this DID show some decency.
                >
                >
                > Indeed, during the time this went on I was watching the
                news
                > as it all developed. And Serbia was releasing men from
                its army
                > so they could go and be volunteers in Bosnia and the
                Krajina.
                > The ideological and romance of fiction and poetry type
                rabble
                > rousing definitely came out of Serbia, that Karadzic
                character.
                >
                > The news about Serbian activities did not come out all at
                once,
                > it took a while. And one of the main doctors who saw the
                evidence
                > of the mass rapes and prepared reports was HIMSELF ethnic
                > Serbian.
                >
                > One of the Christian minority ("by their fruits you shall
                know them")
                > among the Serbs, I guess.
                >
                > So maybe you can consider that there is something to all
                this,
                > since the accusers include a Serb.
                >
                > Last heard, the three commanders who demanded systematic
                mass
                > rapes by their men, were in hiding in Russia.
                >
                > Mary Christine Erikson
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
                free from AOL at AOL.com.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Never miss an email again!
                > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it
                out.
                >
              • Al Green
                ***My gut feeling, mary christine, is that the World Court may be in the best position to rule on Serbia s culpability. The World Court has a reputation for
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 4, 2007
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                  ***My gut feeling, mary christine, is that the World Court may be in
                  the best position to rule on Serbia's culpability. The World Court
                  has a reputation for being quite harsh with human rights violators in
                  cases brought before it. As far as I am concerned, regardless of what
                  my personal feelings may be, the World Court in this case rules.

                  Al


                  --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Infowolf1@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > In a message dated 3/2/2007 4:35:51 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                  > aggreen1@... writes:
                  >
                  > ***Note: I'm posting this because ROCOR's long-standing communion
                  > with the Church of Serbia, and because of the excessive negative
                  > publicity on the web concerning Serbian Christians. --Al
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > According to the article, Serbia was found guilty of not
                  preventing
                  > or trying to prevent the genocide.
                  >
                  > And those weren't Christians. Those were nominal at best,
                  and about
                  > 80% don't attend church. That is from an Orthodox online
                  source.
                  > The tendency to baptize local custom went too far and they
                  think
                  > whatever a Serb does is, therefore, Christian. That
                  Serbian interests
                  > are identical with those of The Kingdom of Heaven. (not
                  unlike the
                  > American semi Christian Right, heavily compromised with
                  Nazis
                  > and Moon's false messiah cult.)
                  >
                  > The Serbian Church seems to have been deceived for a few
                  generations
                  > now into making such equations, but then, their priests
                  and bishops
                  > come out of the local population, with local baggage,
                  assumptions,
                  > and acceptance of the unacceptable, I guess. I fear they
                  have been
                  > infected with the glamour spells cast by romantic history
                  writers.
                  >
                  > And don't think that the routine exorcism that may or may
                  not be
                  > done at some point during a baptism and chrismation is
                  guaranteed
                  > to hold for life no matter what - full scale exorcisms
                  sometimes even
                  > when effective, have to be repeated, as Jesus warns, the
                  Thing comes
                  > back to check out the house he has been cast out of. If he
                  can, he
                  > will enter it again.
                  >
                  >
                  > If they were Christian they would not have acted with such
                  greed
                  > and ambition aside from the issue of atrocities. A few
                  caught up
                  > in this DID show some decency.
                  >
                  >
                  > Indeed, during the time this went on I was watching the
                  news
                  > as it all developed. And Serbia was releasing men from
                  its army
                  > so they could go and be volunteers in Bosnia and the
                  Krajina.
                  > The ideological and romance of fiction and poetry type
                  rabble
                  > rousing definitely came out of Serbia, that Karadzic
                  character.
                  >
                  > The news about Serbian activities did not come out all at
                  once,
                  > it took a while. And one of the main doctors who saw the
                  evidence
                  > of the mass rapes and prepared reports was HIMSELF ethnic
                  > Serbian.
                  >
                  > One of the Christian minority ("by their fruits you shall
                  know them")
                  > among the Serbs, I guess.
                  >
                  > So maybe you can consider that there is something to all
                  this,
                  > since the accusers include a Serb.
                  >
                  > Last heard, the three commanders who demanded systematic
                  mass
                  > rapes by their men, were in hiding in Russia.
                  >
                  > Mary Christine Erikson
                  > <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now
                  offers free
                  > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
                  > http://www.aol.com
                  >
                • Infowolf1@aol.com
                  In a message dated 3/4/2007 5:32:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, aggreen1@yahoo.com writes: ***My gut feeling, mary christine, is that the World Court may be
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 5, 2007
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                    In a message dated 3/4/2007 5:32:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, aggreen1@... writes:
                    ***My gut feeling, mary christine, is that the World Court may be in
                    the best position to rule on Serbia's culpability. The World Court
                    has a reputation for being quite harsh with human rights violators in
                    cases brought before it. As far as I am concerned, regardless of what
                    my personal feelings may be, the World Court in this case rules.

                    Al
                     
                            If you would read the article you posted, apparently without reading
                            anything but the headline, you would see that the The World Court
                            found them guilty of not doing all it could to prevent genocide.
                     
                            It would be hard, though not impossible, to make a case for direct
                            Serbian government of Serbia per se genocide, since they used the
                            plausible deniability style of the CIA and others, of sending not their
                            military, but letting men leave the army so they could go and fight
                            in Bosnia. the propaganda mill was partly in Serbia.
                     
                            So they ARE being held accountable for not using their evident
                            influence against what was done.
                     
                            Mary Christine.




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                  • Infowolf1@aol.com
                    In a message dated 3/4/2007 5:32:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, aggreen1@yahoo.com writes: ***My gut feeling, mary christine, is that the World Court may be
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 5, 2007
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                      In a message dated 3/4/2007 5:32:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, aggreen1@... writes:
                      ***My gut feeling, mary christine, is that the World Court may be in
                      the best position to rule on Serbia's culpability. The World Court
                      has a reputation for being quite harsh with human rights violators in
                      cases brought before it. As far as I am concerned, regardless of what
                      my personal feelings may be, the World Court in this case rules.

                      Al
                       
                              If you would read the article you posted, apparently without reading
                              anything but the headline, you would see that the The World Court
                              found them guilty of not doing all it could to prevent genocide.
                       
                              It would be hard, though not impossible, to make a case for direct
                              Serbian government of Serbia per se genocide, since they used the
                              plausible deniability style of the CIA and others, of sending not their
                              military, but letting men leave the army so they could go and fight
                              in Bosnia. the propaganda mill was partly in Serbia.
                       
                              So they ARE being held accountable for not using their evident
                              influence against what was done.
                       
                              Also, I take issue with your statement that I have never had anything
                              good to say about Serbs and blame all Serbs for the acts of a few.
                              I have lauded the actions of some individual Serbs who opposed evil,
                              noted the opinion of a Serbian lady I met at church that anyone in
                              the Balkans claiming religion as a reason or motive is just "playing a
                              game," and most of the information I have posted regarding Serbian
                              irreligiousness is from Orthodox online sources. I have posted
                              materials from a Serb source or two on Orthodox_Re-Forum, which
                              no one has to my knowledge or memory, dared answer. Also, I have told
                              someone "shut up and listen to your Patriarch" meaning Patriarch
                              Pavle, because Patriarch Pavle has acknowledged there is serious
                              Serbian wrong doing, both in Bosnia and Kosovo, One of the most
                              damning accounts of Serbian village life was from a runaway Serbian
                              source online.
                       
                              Nikola Tesla, by the way, was a Serb.
                       
                              And regarding the monarchial thing, yes, monarchism might be possible,
                              but even if it never takes place, much covert harm can be done in the
                              process of the attempt.
                       
                              The traditional Orthodox relationship with government was not symphony
                              between church and Monarch, as someone else said, though it usually in
                              a monarchial time worked out that way, but between Church and government.
                       
                              And though by the time of the rise of the Church there was a monarchy in
                              charge of Rome, it had originally been a Republic, and still had limitations
                              from the Senate.
                       
                              The main problem with monarchism is this: There is often a remarkable
                              and worthy great person who starts the dynasty. Then he dies, and his
                              successors are rarely up to snuff, and they were raised by courtiers who
                              have shaped their patterns of deference in practice never mind technical
                              rules, so that the element the founder had under his heel is now the
                              ruler in later generations.
                       
                              This is not a good thing. Monarchs especially with religious angles on them
                              are hard to control when they go wrong. It is better as it is now.
                       
                              Government properly should not be of the people by the people for the
                              people, there has to be a greater purpose and godliness. For a time the
                              USA had some of this short circuited back to God, by the people being
                              under the influence of godliness notions in school and so forth. But it has
                              become secularized to the point that any religion or whatever must be
                              treated with respect but Christianity can be insulted at will.
                       
                              Romans says that government is ultimately of God, to restrain evil and
                              secondarily to reward good. This gives a nod in the direction of interventionist
                              governmental systems, often dismissed as "socialist" or whatever, despite
                              the fact that any idea that government should not intervene here and there is
                              only a few centuries old if that.
                       
                              But democracy works better than pure monarchy to do this, because when
                              the people can throw a ruler out without violence, and you have a free press
                              and legal protection for investigative reporters doing things or keeping secrets
                              that might be illegal otherwise (I have seen this once in a state penal code,
                              though it may have been ruled out by a court or changed) you have a way
                              of keeping the government honest, and on track with its God ordained
                              purpose.
                       
                              Democracy, by the way is anti ethnos anti tribal at heart because
                              it is not about one man one vote but voting per where you live or where you
                              were born, NOT per what your family is
                       
                              Mary Christine Erikson





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                    • bismarc otto
                      ... **Xenos: Well whoopee! Whereas its good the lies that US president & the UN followed to blame all Serbs for the genocide is now shown to be a fraud who
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 5, 2007
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                        --- Al Green <aggreen1@...> wrote:

                        > ***My gut feeling, mary christine, is that the World
                        > Court may be in
                        > the best position to rule on Serbia's culpability.
                        > The World Court
                        > has a reputation for being quite harsh with human
                        > rights violators in
                        > cases brought before it. As far as I am concerned,
                        > regardless of what
                        > my personal feelings may be, the World Court in this
                        > case rules.
                        >
                        > Al

                        **Xenos: Well whoopee! Whereas its good the lies that
                        US president & the UN followed to blame all Serbs for
                        the genocide is now shown to be a fraud who cares? I
                        converted in 1998. In my baptism attendance were 15
                        Russians, 4 Greeks & the only 3 Serbs I knew at the
                        time. All were helpfull, all were devout, all are
                        Orthodox Christian & my Brethen. The world has never
                        treated Holy Serbia well. In 1354 St.Lazar fought to a
                        Holy Martyr's death to preserve the Orthodox Faith in
                        Serbia. No amount of Islamic terror could end the
                        Faith, not even a worldy death. In 1912 Holy Serbia
                        finally ended Turkish rule. In 1913 the Austrian
                        Hungarian empire decided like Bill Clinton & the UN to
                        blame Holy Serbia for a act of 1 or a few. Never ever
                        before has 1 nation been placed en-masse on trial by
                        the world. Even in the Nuremberg people had common
                        sense lacking in the world authorites today to say not
                        all Germans were responsible for Hitlers nightmare.
                        Not even black Americans for the most part blame all
                        whites for slavery. The media of our nation did a hack
                        job on our Serbian brothers & sisters. Bill Clinton
                        lied when he said 1 MILLION dead muslims would be
                        found. UN reports show that its now approx between
                        25-30,000 people found in the death burials.
                        Ironically UN reports show all 3 groups played a part.
                        Ironically the Patriarch of Serbia Pavle
                        ex-communicated MIlosevic in 1995 in public a reare
                        act in Orthodoxy as a historicla note. Ironically the
                        people who cheered on a defunct US president in all
                        areas never minded that Saddam Hussein in 1997 of the
                        bombing gave Iraq 40 days before bombing commenced
                        however Yugoslavia the forced western name of Serbia
                        after ww1 was given 4 hours by US war criminal Bill
                        Clinton. His response to questions to the why of it?
                        Those things happen in war! was his response. I could
                        care less of his affair as he isn't Orthodox, or the
                        fact he was a 4 time draft dodger, but in all
                        reflection how can a leader even speak of morals &
                        wars in that he may understand if he has never served?
                        But now we are entering a period when leaders of both
                        parties are more than willing to send US troops when
                        they themslves never saw battle as a young man.
                        My Serbian Orthodox Christian brothers are amongst
                        the finest people I have known in my time in Holy
                        Orthodoxy. I don't live by lies, or myths. What
                        happened in Serbia in the 90s was wrong, 100%
                        regardless of who did what & what the numbers were as
                        my Spiritual Father told me. But Patriarch Pavle did
                        what God calls us all to do in harsh times, he led. He
                        not only ex-communnicated Milosevic he also opened all
                        Orhtodox buildings for all refugees w/no regard to
                        background of religion.
                        I truly wonder if those so willing to judge all
                        Serbians really ever knew any Serbian? I wonder if we
                        said the same in regard to black Americans or any
                        other group would the chicken hawk liberals denounce
                        any other group? I highly doubt they would. I have no
                        time for idiots who falsely want to judge my brothers
                        & sisters in our Holy Orthodox Church. If I stand on
                        the losing side, the politically incorrect side here
                        on earth & lose whatever I have w/my Serbian brethen
                        its worth it 100%. I don't want what the fake western
                        churches have, in 1996 when I ran into some good
                        Orthodox converts w/some Russian Orthodox I found my
                        home, we don't need what the WCC or Rome has to do. We
                        don't need UN approval. The world will never give a
                        damn about us. I knew that when I converted & did so
                        anyways. I thank my Orthodox ethnic brethen including
                        the Serbians for retaining the Orthodox Faith of my
                        western ancestors. Screw the world & whatever they
                        think. Yes its funny not a kangaroo court couldn't get
                        itself to falsely convict Holy Serbia. Its fitting it
                        cameout as Lent has begun, Amen.
                        In Christ
                        Xenos Mann



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                      • Al Green
                        ... in ... in ... what ... reading ... World Court ... genocide. ***Preventing genocide by some group and being found innocent of actually doing it are two
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 6, 2007
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                          --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Infowolf1@... wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > In a message dated 3/4/2007 5:32:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                          > aggreen1@... writes:
                          >
                          > ***My gut feeling, mary christine, is that the World Court may be
                          in
                          > the best position to rule on Serbia's culpability. The World Court
                          > has a reputation for being quite harsh with human rights violators
                          in
                          > cases brought before it. As far as I am concerned, regardless of
                          what
                          > my personal feelings may be, the World Court in this case rules.
                          >
                          > Al
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > If you would read the article you posted, apparently without
                          reading
                          > anything but the headline, you would see that the The
                          World Court
                          > found them guilty of not doing all it could to prevent
                          genocide.


                          ***Preventing genocide by some group and being found innocent of
                          actually doing it are two separate issues. Let's not muddle the
                          excellent news about being cleared of genocide with the negative
                          sidebar issue of doing nothing to prevent it by whomever did it.

                          Al
                        • Infowolf1@aol.com
                          In a message dated 3/6/2007 8:21:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, aggreen1@yahoo.com writes: ***Preventing genocide by some group and being found innocent of
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 6, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            In a message dated 3/6/2007 8:21:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, aggreen1@... writes:
                            ***Preventing genocide by some group and being found innocent of
                            actually doing it are two separate issues. Let's not muddle the
                            excellent news about being cleared of genocide with the negative
                            sidebar issue of doing nothing to prevent it by whomever did it.

                            Al
                             
                                    Al, this is intellectually dishonest. I doubt anyone could seriously
                                    expect that Serbia's covert efforts in the direction of genocide could be
                                    proved. and "found innocent" in most legal systems doesn't mean
                                    someone IS innocent, just that they had the better lawyers and were
                                    better at getting evidence either covered up or ruled inadmissable.
                             
                                    the genocide charges belong more directly at the ethnic Serb commanders
                                    and rank and file in Bosnia and the Krajina and elsewhere. That an
                                    overarching conspiracy existed is likely, and consistent with the behavior
                                    of protecting the assassins of the Archduke Ferdinand.
                             
                                    but Serbia proper had enormous influence, was the source of arms
                                    and men freed from the army to go to Bosnia, and of propaganda.
                                    Therefore, they would have been able to do more than they did.
                             
                                    And these were apparently charges run simultaneously in the World
                                    Court since not guilty on one is stated simultaneously with guilty on
                                    another.
                             
                                    If I live next door to you, and all sorts of bad stuff breaks loose with
                                    you involving people i have a lot of influence with and am financing
                                    and who are in regular contact with the people you have as working
                                    squatters or whatever, I think you would know who to blame for it,
                                    even if you could never prove it.
                             
                                    further, this was a criminal proceeding, and if the evidence standard
                                    is the same as US, and it probably is, then it is guilty beyond a
                                    reasonable shadow of a doubt, not more likely guilty than not as in
                                    civil court.
                                    
                                    I don't know if the World Court separates criminal and civil like Anglo-
                                    American courts do, but if it does, the same evidence that failed by
                                    the skin of its teeth most likely to convict this time around, would
                                    get a conviction most likely.
                             
                                    Mary Christine Erikson




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                          • George
                            ... what genocide? specifically what casualties, and where, do you feel were the targets of genocide? George Green
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 6, 2007
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                              >In a message dated 3/6/2007 8:21:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                              >aggreen1@... writes:
                              >
                              >***Preventing genocide by some group and being found innocent of
                              >actually doing it are two separate issues. Let's not muddle the
                              >excellent news about being cleared of genocide with the negative
                              >sidebar issue of doing nothing to prevent it by whomever did it.
                              >
                              >Al
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >Al, this is intellectually dishonest. I doubt anyone could seriously
                              > expect that Serbia's covert efforts in the direction of genocide
                              >could be
                              > proved. and "found innocent" in most legal systems doesn't mean
                              > someone IS innocent, just that they had the better lawyers and were
                              > better at getting evidence either covered up or ruled inadmissable.

                              what genocide? specifically what casualties, and where, do you feel were the targets of genocide?

                              George Green
                            • Al Green
                              ***And I think that your persistent denigration of the Serbian people and anything Serbian is equally dishonest...to say nothing of theologically unsound. But
                              Message 14 of 20 , Mar 6, 2007
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                                ***And I think that your persistent denigration of the Serbian people
                                and anything Serbian is equally dishonest...to say nothing of
                                theologically unsound. But that's my opinion. I have no arguments
                                with the Serbian people as a whole despite the sins of a few.



                                --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Infowolf1@... wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > In a message dated 3/6/2007 8:21:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                                > aggreen1@... writes:
                                >
                                > ***Preventing genocide by some group and being found innocent of
                                > actually doing it are two separate issues. Let's not muddle the
                                > excellent news about being cleared of genocide with the negative
                                > sidebar issue of doing nothing to prevent it by whomever did it.
                                >
                                > Al
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Al, this is intellectually dishonest. I doubt anyone could
                                seriously
                                > expect that Serbia's covert efforts in the direction of
                                genocide
                                > could be
                                > proved. and "found innocent" in most legal systems doesn't
                                mean
                                > someone IS innocent, just that they had the better lawyers
                                and were
                                > better at getting evidence either covered up or ruled
                                inadmissable.



                                ***Golly. Sounds like the American judicial system. Lots of guilty
                                people have been found innocent just like many innocent people have
                                been found innocent. It all dependxs on the legal arguments and the
                                legal acumen of the barristers. It's a big YAWN!


                                >
                                > the genocide charges belong more directly at the ethnic
                                Serb
                                > commanders
                                > and rank and file in Bosnia and the Krajina and elsewhere.



                                ***Just a reminder, folks, that the World Court found Serbia innocent
                                of this!


                                That an
                                > overarching conspiracy existed is likely, and consistent
                                with the
                                > behavior
                                > of protecting the assassins of the Archduke Ferdinand.
                                >
                                > but Serbia proper had enormous influence, was the source
                                of arms
                                > and men freed from the army to go to Bosnia, and of
                                propaganda.



                                ***Influence and propaganda does not a genocidal nature create!



                                > Therefore, they would have been able to do more than they
                                did.
                                >
                                > And these were apparently charges run simultaneously in
                                the World
                                > Court since not guilty on one is stated simultaneously
                                with guilty on
                                > another.



                                ***Two separate issues, of course (said Al in his disingenuous manner
                                <G>).



                                >
                                > If I live next door to you, and all sorts of bad stuff
                                breaks loose
                                > with
                                > you involving people i have a lot of influence with and am
                                financing
                                > and who are in regular contact with the people you have as
                                working
                                > squatters or whatever, I think you would know who to blame
                                for it,
                                > even if you could never prove it.


                                ***Ah, the son is guilty of the sins of the father. Cool!



                                >
                                > further, this was a criminal proceeding, and if the
                                evidence standard
                                > is the same as US, and it probably is,



                                ***Not necessarily.


                                then it is guilty beyond a
                                > reasonable shadow of a doubt, not more likely guilty than
                                not as in
                                > civil court.


                                ***I, for one, do not accept your stretch of the imagination. I do,
                                however, accept the decision of the court (but then, I'm not as
                                biased against Serbia as some).



                                >
                                > I don't know if the World Court separates criminal and
                                civil like
                                > Anglo-
                                > American courts do, but if it does, the same evidence that
                                failed by
                                > the skin of its teeth most likely to convict this time
                                around, would
                                > get a conviction most likely.


                                ***Most likely? What a terrible justification for one's biasses!

                                Al
                              • bismarc otto
                                ... **Xenos: No its not intellectually dis-honest. What is dis-honest on ALL accounts is 1 entire nation being tried for genocide. Not even all Germans were
                                Message 15 of 20 , Mar 6, 2007
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                                  --- Infowolf1@... wrote:
                                  > Al, this is intellectually dishonest. I doubt
                                  > anyone could seriously
                                  > expect that Serbia's covert efforts in the
                                  > direction of genocide
                                  > could be
                                  > proved. and "found innocent" in most legal
                                  > systems doesn't mean
                                  > someone IS innocent, just that they had the
                                  > better lawyers and were
                                  > better at getting evidence either covered
                                  > up or ruled inadmissable.
                                  **Xenos: No its not intellectually dis-honest. What is
                                  dis-honest on ALL accounts is 1 entire nation being
                                  tried for genocide. Not even all Germans were tried
                                  for all Hitlers holocaust crimes. Its just a pathetic
                                  liberal media dream to get a trial to prove a enemy is
                                  1 entire Christian nation. Must be really hard for the
                                  worldly media & political hacks to see this in a
                                  kangaroo court.
                                  But if your assumptions are correct which is
                                  extremely suspect now all Croatians too must face a
                                  trial as well all muslims who participated in th esame
                                  crime as some Serbs.
                                  In Christ
                                  Xenos Mann



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                                • Infowolf1@aol.com
                                  In a message dated 3/6/2007 4:40:55 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, ikonsareholy@yahoo.com writes: **Xenos: No its not intellectually dis-honest. What is
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Mar 7, 2007
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                                    In a message dated 3/6/2007 4:40:55 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, ikonsareholy@... writes:
                                    **Xenos: No its not intellectually dis-honest. What is
                                    dis-honest on ALL accounts is 1 entire nation being
                                    tried for genocide.
                                            entire nation means the government, not all
                                            individuals. But Milosevich had a near majority
                                            support, and nearly all the Ethnic Serbs in Bosnia
                                            were involved in this stuff and actively profiteering
                                            off of it.
                                    Not even all Germans were tried
                                    for all Hitlers holocaust crimes. Its just a pathetic
                                    liberal media dream to get a trial to prove a enemy is
                                    1 entire Christian nation.
                                     
                                            when the vast majority do not go to church, it is not
                                            a Christian nation. In any case, a Christian nation
                                            doesn't much exist. it is merely a nation in which
                                            Christianity is not only legal but in theory, in its
                                            externals at least, actively encouraged.
                                    Must be really hard for the
                                    worldly media & political hacks to see this in a
                                    kangaroo court.
                                    But if your assumptions are correct which is
                                    extremely suspect now all Croatians too must face a
                                    trial as well all muslims who participated in th esame
                                    crime as some Serbs.
                                     
                                            Good, go for it. But don't harbor illusions about people
                                            because of their historic associations due to a handful
                                            of diamonds that in retrospect outshine the majority.
                                     
                                            it is dangerous for everyone who does so.
                                     
                                            In Christ,
                                     
                                            Mary Christine Erikson




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                                  • Infowolf1@aol.com
                                    In a message dated 3/5/2007 3:38:12 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, ikonsareholy@yahoo.com writes: In 1912 Holy Serbia finally ended Turkish rule. In 1913 the
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Mar 7, 2007
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                                      In a message dated 3/5/2007 3:38:12 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, ikonsareholy@... writes:
                                      In 1912 Holy Serbia
                                      finally ended Turkish rule. In 1913 the Austrian
                                      Hungarian empire decided like Bill Clinton & the UN to
                                      blame Holy Serbia for a act of 1 or a few.
                                       
                                              Reality Check
                                       
                                              Serbia did not end Turkish rule in its entirety not even in
                                              Europe, that involved other Balkan entities.
                                       
                                              And the Austro Hungarian Empire did not simply decide
                                              to blame Serbia for the act of one or more.
                                       
                                              A few assassins, representing The Black Hand (which later
                                              mutated into an organization called the white something or other)
                                              took out the Archduke. One at least was caught, but the others
                                              or their fellow conspirators, I forget the details, went and took
                                              refuge in Serbia.
                                       
                                              Austro Hungary requested they hand them over for trial, and
                                              this was refused, behavior consistent with suspicions of
                                              more active complicity.
                                       
                                              This behavior may have been and probably will be explained
                                              now as proper protection of fellow member of the holy race or
                                              some such nonsense.
                                       
                                              It is prelest and pride pure and simple, even if there is no other
                                              motive.
                                       
                                              It is also rebuked in principle by the story of the Benjamite
                                              town that refused to turn over the rapists and murderers who
                                              killed a levite's concubine, resulting eventually in the near
                                              extinction of Benjamin as a tribe, something usually taken as
                                              evidence of God's disapproval, Book of Judges.
                                       
                                              It is also rebuked in principle by various statements about the
                                              role of government being to repress evil, and that God is not
                                              a respecter of persons, neither should we be such, which
                                              means He does not take things that make for double standards
                                              into account like we often do, and that we should strive to be
                                              of good report before God and men.
                                       
                                              This refusal of Serbia to turn over the agents of plans for a
                                              Greater Serbia, resulted in WW I.
                                       
                                              WW I led to the Versaille Agreement overkill, which led to Hitler
                                              and WW II.
                                       
                                              WW II's unfinished business is a major part of present world
                                              problems. The Arab terrorist thing partly descends from German
                                              contacts pre WW I through WW II and when the SS was on the
                                              run, though many went into Russia, Canada, the US and South
                                              America, many also became advisors in the Arab countries,
                                              Africa and even at least one became an advisor to Israel.
                                       
                                              Mary Christine Erikson




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                                    • ikonsareholy
                                      ... **Xenos: How do you know this? At 1st when Milosevic won a election he offered autonomy which Croats & muslims turned down but that gained him at the time
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Mar 7, 2007
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                                        --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Infowolf1@... wrote:
                                        > entire nation means the government, not all
                                        > individuals. But Milosevich had a near majority
                                        > support, and nearly all the Ethnic Serbs in Bosnia
                                        > were involved in this stuff and actively profiteering
                                        > off of it.
                                        **Xenos: How do you know this? At 1st when Milosevic won a election
                                        he offered autonomy which Croats & muslims turned down but that
                                        gained him at the time the support of the SerbianPatriarch Pavle who
                                        ex-communicated Milosevic in 1995. As well several popular uprisings
                                        were happening before 1998 when US pres Clinton the US war criminal
                                        bombed at the request of the UN. I doubt any info you have as thats
                                        not accurate even by BCC or W.European media. Now according to your
                                        standards we MUST try all Iraqis for Kurdish & Shite killings that
                                        occured under Saddam Hussein. Then we MUST try all white Americans
                                        for slavery & Jim Crow laws as most whites supported it to a extent
                                        or did little to stop it. That of course is intellectually dis-honest
                                        & bizarre in any logic. But the liberal media w/a morally defunct US
                                        president told us lies. Many bought them like a crakc addict buys a
                                        short term high. Again it must be really embarrassing for the
                                        supporters of a failed man like Bill Clinton to see this verdict of
                                        innonence. I am gratefull you weren't allowed part of this process as
                                        you already seem ready to join in w/worldly media & the UN.



                                        >
                                        > when the vast majority do not go to church, it is not
                                        > a Christian nation. In any case, a Christian nation
                                        > doesn't much exist. it is merely a nation in which
                                        > Christianity is not only legal but in theory, in its
                                        > externals at least, actively encouraged.
                                        **Xenos: How do you know who attends & whom doesn't? Do you live in
                                        Serbia? Do you get to be the sole decider of this? Whom appointed you
                                        to be judge, juror & executioner of such a view? Patriarch Pavle did
                                        more than any other religous leader did to ensure safety, what did yo
                                        do? Do you know all Serbs personally? I know quite a few & all but 1
                                        I have met attends regurarly. I wouldn't take any protestant tongue
                                        talking/snake handling idiots word for this.


                                        > Good, go for it. But don't harbor illusions about people
                                        > because of their historic associations due to a handful
                                        > of diamonds that in retrospect outshine the majority.
                                        >
                                        > it is dangerous for everyone who does so.
                                        **Xenos: I will take the Serbians over most whack cases who tried to
                                        deny Serbia justice. I will not really care what the WCC or Rome has
                                        to say. I would rather have a real leader like Patriarch Pavle than
                                        the protestant whacks we see on tv. Its lent, can't you leave the
                                        Serbians alone for a while, Clinton couldn't give them 4 days of time
                                        for Pascha in 1998. Maybe this failure to observe services while
                                        bombs were being dropped is the reason you have condemned the Serbs
                                        as non-Christian?
                                        In Christ
                                        Xenos Mann
                                      • George Edward Green III
                                        ... i d encourage you to look at the statistics as kosovo went from 10% muslim to 80%. this was an INVASION. this is what the invasion entailed:
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Mar 8, 2007
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                                          On Mar 6, 2007, at 11:37 AM, Infowolf1@... wrote:

                                          > In a message dated 3/6/2007 8:21:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                                          > aggreen1@... writes:
                                          > ***Preventing genocide by some group and being found innocent of
                                          > actually doing it are two separate issues. Let's not muddle the
                                          > excellent news about being cleared of genocide with the negative
                                          > sidebar issue of doing nothing to prevent it by whomever did it.
                                          >
                                          > Al
                                          >
                                          > Al, this is intellectually dishonest. I doubt anyone could
                                          > seriously
                                          > expect that Serbia's covert efforts in the direction of
                                          > genocide could be
                                          > proved. and "found innocent" in most legal systems doesn't
                                          > mean
                                          > someone IS innocent, just that they had the better lawyers
                                          > and were
                                          > better at getting evidence either covered up or ruled
                                          > inadmissable.
                                          i'd encourage you to look at the statistics as 'kosovo' went from 10%
                                          muslim to 80%.

                                          this was an INVASION.

                                          this is what the invasion entailed:
                                          http://www.interfax-religion.com/kosovo/

                                          it is not genocide to fend off invaders regardless of their uniformity.

                                          what the muslims have unleashed against Christians in the Orthodox
                                          center of Serbia IS GENOCIDE.

                                          It is targeted murder of non muslims.

                                          George Green
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