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Re: Patriarch Alexy Wishes Success to Ecumenists

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  • Fr. John Whiteford
    Where are you getting your information on the youth meetings attended by Russian Youth? I get the impression from what I could see on their sites that there
    Message 1 of 46 , Mar 2, 2007
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      Where are you getting your information on the youth meetings attended
      by Russian Youth? I get the impression from what I could see on
      their sites that there are at least two kinds of meetings. They have
      people who visit their monastery, and then they have big shin-digs
      around Europe. I suspect that we are talking about the latter,
      here. However, I don't have enough information to say what goes on
      at those shin-digs.

      -Fr. John Whiteford

      --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "Athanasios Jayne"
      <athanasiosj@...> wrote:
      >
      > Father bless.
      >
      > Dear Fr. John,
      >
      > If you examine these Taize youth meetings, which
      > are attended by Russian Orthodox young people,
      > you will find that common Ecumenist prayer, with
      > heretics, is a primary focus and activity of such
      > meetings.
      >
      > Christ warned that it would be better to have a
      > millstone hung about our necks, and for us to be
      > cast into the depths of the sea, than that one
      > of the little ones who believes in Him should
      > be stumbled by us. If I had children, I would
      > *never* bless them to attend a Taize youth
      > gathering, which is Ecumenist in outlook,
      > intentions, and activities: anti-Orthodox, and
      > anti-Christian.
      >
      > Father, examine Taize carefully, and their youth
      > gatherings, and what takes place at these gatherings,
      > and tell me if you would give your own children a
      > blessing to attend them as teen-agers or young
      > adults.
      >
      > Over and over again I see in MP documents the idea
      > that the Church needs to engage the heterodox so as
      > to help improve the "social morals" of the nations.
      > This is not the Gospel of Christ. It is not conversion.
      > Rather, it is akin to what the Evangelical Protestants
      > are trying to do in this country (the USA)--make it
      > "Christian" without Christ. The MP agenda is to
      > try and make the world better a better place, but
      > seemingly without preaching Orthodoxy itself. Orthodoxy
      > is not simply a useful tool for the betterment of
      > national moral fiber, or for the strengthening of
      > Western Civilization, through a sort of "blessed
      > osmosis" of near proximity, as if Committees and their
      > "Statements" could somehow replace Baptism for the
      > sanctification of sinners. No, Orthodoxy is the only
      > hope and life of the world, and that is what we ought
      > to say, and that is how we ought to live.
      >
      > Athanasios Jayne
      > (ROCOR)
      >
    • Kenneth Doll
      This is an interesting theory, but I have also read that the East had disagreements with the West about the correct form of baptism (in addition to the
      Message 46 of 46 , Mar 6, 2007
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        This is an interesting theory, but I have also read that the East had
        disagreements with the West about the correct form of baptism (in
        addition to the leavened/unleavened bread disagreement) going back
        well before 1054. St. Mark must have been aware of this and that in
        the West they regularly baptized by means other than triple immersion
        in 1427.
        Kenneth Doll

        --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, seraphim <seraphim37@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Perhaps the following is pertinent to this discussion.
        >
        > As discussed in I Believe In One Baptism by Father George
        Metallinos, St
        > Mark of Ephesus believed that the Roman Catholics could be received
        into the
        > Orthodox by chrismation only. This has been a point of puzzlement
        for many,
        > since St Mark emphatically stated that the Roman Catholics were
        heretics.
        > How, then, could their baptisms be grace-conferring?
        >
        > St Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain and his contempories explained
        this as
        > follows (following after St Basil the Great). St Nikodemos
        explained that
        > St Mark did not believe that the Roman Catholic baptisms had grace
        (nor did
        > the baptisms of any other heretics). St Mark allowed the reception
        by
        > chrismation only, as a point of economia, whatever grace lacking in
        the
        > heretical baptism being made complete by the Orthodox chrismation.
        However,
        > this economia could be extended only because the form of the
        baptism was
        > identical to that of the Orthodox (at least at that time). If the
        form had
        > been different (non-Trinitarian, or non-triple-immersion), such
        economia
        > could not be extended. Since the Romans had at least maintained
        the proper
        > words and form of the rite, the economia could be extended to them,
        and the
        > grace made perfect through chrismation.
        >
        > This is why some heretical baptisms have been accepted (such as
        those of the
        > Arians and Roman Catholics), but others rejected (such as baptism
        in the
        > name of Jesus only, or baptism by sprinkling). They were accepted
        because
        > the form was maintained -- not because anyone believed their
        baptisms were
        > grace-conferring.
        >
        > Nowadays, however, almost nobody among the non-Orthodox preserves
        the
        > Orthodox form of baptism, making the reception of converts by
        chrismation
        > inappropriate in today's world.
        >
        > The book describes all this in detail, and much better than my
        summary above
        > -- it's really an excellent analysis and solidly based on the
        writings of St
        > Nikodemos and the other Kollyvades fathers.
        >
        > A discussion of the book can be found at the Orthodox Information
        Center --
        > http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/erickson_metallinos.aspx
        >
        > Seraphim Larsen
        >
        > On 3/3/07, Infowolf1@... <Infowolf1@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > In a message dated 3/3/2007 7:43:59 P.M. Pacific Standard
        Time,
        > > athanasiosj@... writes:
        > >
        > > In this context
        > > elimination of any re-baptism is obvious" (Paragraph 13)[337].
        > > In the days of the Ecumenical Councils, different kinds of
        > > heresies
        > > were dealt with differently. Some heretics were received with
        > > rebaptism, but others - this depended on which heresy they came
        > > out of - were received with only chrismation.
        > >
        > > so this mode of dealing with things has its precedent.
        > >
        > > Mary Christine Erikson
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