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Re: Synod of Bishops of ROCOR approves the Act of Canonical Communion with the Mosco

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  • Al Green
    ***As I read these documents, my impression is that the Act is little more than an agreement to share the Communion Cup... I ll commune your people and you
    Message 1 of 72 , Sep 8, 2006
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      ***As I read these documents, my impression is that the Act is
      little more than an agreement to share the Communion Cup..."I'll
      commune your people and you commune mine." Other than that, it seems
      to me that ROCOR and the ROC-MP each maintain their individual
      identities and independent actions. In other words, there will still
      be two branches of the Russian Orthodox Church. Wasn't the goal to
      make the two branches whole...just one ROC?

      Al






      --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John Whiteford"
      <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
      >
      > The Decision:
      >
      > http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2006/9enaktko.html
      >
      > The Epistle to the Flock:
      >
      > http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2006/9enposlaniye.html
      >
      > The Celebration:
      >
      > http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/2006/09/oh-happy-day.html
      >
      >
      > Fr. John
      Whiteford
      >
      > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
      > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
      > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-
      rocor/
      > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
      > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
      >
      > -
      >
    • protodiakon
      Vova, I realize of course you are not ignorant. But if you are serious about criticizing the Patriarchate, it is quite surprising that you are not aware even
      Message 72 of 72 , Oct 8, 2006
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        Vova,

        I realize of course you are not ignorant. But if you are serious about
        criticizing the Patriarchate, it is quite surprising that you are not
        aware even of their website (surely it would have been interesting to
        you to read what the target of your criticism is posting online about
        itself).

        -Ira

        --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Vladimir Koltypin <vkolt73@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Excuse me Fr Mark,
        > 1) I am not ignorant of what is going on. Just was not aware of
        > an actual site where everything is shown.
        > 2) Not playing dumb. I honestly want justice for the wrongs
        > committed.
        > 3) Credibility is not deminished if one is not aware of
        > a "website"
        >
        > Vladimir
        >
        > "Fr. Mark Mancuso" <markmancuso@...> wrote:
        > How could this have been missed? The Social Concept is
        > perhaps the primary foundational basis for the entire
        > dialog between the MP and ROCOR. I believe that one of
        > two things must be: 1) Vladimir is deeply ignorant of
        > what is really going on or 2) he is playing dumb. In
        > either case, the result is that he thereby has no real
        > credibility in this discussion. I wonder how many
        > others who are so inclined lack full possession of the
        > most basic of facts?
        >
        > Fr Mark
        >
        > --- Vladimir Koltypin <vkolt73@...> wrote:
        >
        > > This "Osnovy Sotsial'noi Konseptsii", must have
        > > missed it. Please send me a link again or a in depth
        > > description of what transpired . Will look into it.
        > >
        > > Vladimir
        > >
        > > protodiakon <musicschool@...> wrote:
        > > Out of friendship for Vladimir, I have
        > > refrained from reacting to his
        > > posts until now. But two things strike me as needing
        > > a response at
        > > this moment in time:
        > >
        > > First, re: "The church knew of innocent people being
        > > sent to
        > > concentration camps." Yes, clearly, it knew of this
        > > first
        > > hand...since many of the people in the concentration
        > > camps were
        > > Orthodox parishioners, priests and bishops, who
        > > belonged to...yes, the
        > > Moscow Patriarchate. The Church itself was a victim
        > > here, for eighty
        > > years. I might mention here that I know this from my
        > > own family
        > > experience: my great grandfather was a priest, who
        > > was in 1937
        > > incarcerated and for the duration of half a year was
        > > brought out into
        > > the yard every morning to be shot. They finally let
        > > him go and he
        > > died, a broken man, who, in my book, qualifies as an
        > > ispovednik. But
        > > here's the catch: he never left the Moscow
        > > Patriarchate and
        > > commemorated metropolitan Sergius. In the logic of
        > > some people this
        > > would mean that my great-grandfather's suffering for
        > > the Church were
        > > not real because he wasn't some katakombnik.
        > >
        > > Second, re: the Patriarchate has not apologized or
        > > renounced
        > > sergianism. How many times does one need to refer
        > > Vladimir to the
        > > Social Concept (Osnovy Sotsial'noi Konseptsii) or to
        > > the Patriarch's
        > > oft cited apology in the early 1990s, both of which
        > > do just that?
        > >
        > > Forgive the bitter tone, but it is frustrating that,
        > > when one is
        > > engaged in dialogue, at least one side is unwilling
        > > to even consider
        > > the possibility that there may be other realities
        > > than the one they
        > > seem to be living. And I should qualify this: my
        > > doctoral
        > > dissertation is on the post-Soviet Russian Church,
        > > so I think I know a
        > > little bit about this subject. By no means do I
        > > perceive the upcoming
        > > reunion with the MP through rose colored glasses.
        > > During the course of
        > > my research I have come upon many, many problems
        > > within the Church,
        > > and have no illusions about some of the
        > > personalities currently there
        > > or about the real difficulty the Church will
        > > continue to experience in
        > > ridding itself of a number of frankly negative
        > > phenomena. At the same
        > > time: none of this makes the MP less of a Church, or
        > > its sacraments
        > > less grace-filled: it is an institution that has
        > > suffered greatly and
        > > is going through a period of real, albeit
        > > problem-filled, rebirth in
        > > difficult circumstances. We cannot, in good
        > > conscience, continue to
        > > deny that, or to walk away from the opportunity to
        > > really contribute
        > > to the ongoing process of what we, in ROCOR, have
        > > always prayed for:
        > > the renaissance of Orthodoxy in Russia.
        > >
        > > -Irina
        > >
        > > --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "Al Green"
        > > <aggreen1@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Vladimir
        > > Koltypin
        > > > <vkolt73@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Liudmilla Mikailovna,
        > > > >
        > > > > When the then Metropolitan Sergei came to Stalin
        > > and said " Your
        > > > Joys are Our Joys, Your Sorrows are Our Sorrows,"
        > > He brought the
        > > > church in support of the Government.
        > > > >
        > > > > How did the church support the government?
        > > > >
        > > > > 1) It prayed for the Communist dictators who
        > > executed millions
        > > > over the 80 years of communism. I do believe
        > > praying for murderers
        > > > to continue murdering constitutes a sin.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ***Whoa! Did the prayers specifically say, "Lord,
        > > help the communist
        > > > government continue their killing spree"? or did
        > > you just word this
        > > > wrong?
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > 2) The church knew of innocent people being sent
        > > to
        > > > concentration camps.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ***So did most of the world governments, but they
        > > kept it under
        > > > wraps...kinda like the WWII pop not speaking out
        > > against the "final
        > > > solution."
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > 3) The church Bishops and Priests reported the
        > > sins confessed to
        > > > the KGB. That would be breaking Priest/Laity
        > > confidentiality.
        > > > >
        > > > > 4) Due to these confessions being reported, KGB
        > > took many people
        > > > to Concentration camps.
        > > > >
        > > > > The above statements constitute aiding and
        > > abetting the evil
        > > > communist government. This means that The
        > > Patriarchate Church is as
        > > > equaly responsible as if it executed the innocent
        > > lives themselves.
        > > > The least they could do is appologize. If I need
        > > to make myself more
        > > > clear please don't hesitate to ask.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ***and you've seen the apology of the current
        > > Patriarch, yet you
        > > > want to humiliate him with groveling in the mud.
        > > Is this good for
        > > > the Church, or is it just you? Why can you not
        > > forgive in the spirit
        > > > of the Amish father who forgave the Pennsylvania
        > > killer who shot his
        > > > little girl in the schoolhouse a few days ago?
        > > >
        > > > Al
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ---------------------------------
        > > Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr.
        > > We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business.
        >
        > Rev. Fr. Mark T. Mancuso
        > St. Elizabeth the New-Martyr Orthodox Church
        > Russian Orthodox Church Abroad
        > Columbia, South Carolina
        > http://www.stelizabeth.net
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