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Re: How Serious is This?

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  • Al Green
    ***Question: ***Deacon, how can the MP today seek forgiveness of the sins of those in the past and now dead? Sounds a little like Mormonism. I can no more
    Message 1 of 50 , Aug 31, 2006

      ***Deacon, how can the MP today seek forgiveness of the sins of
      those in the past and now dead? Sounds a little like Mormonism. I
      can no more atone for the sins of my father than the current
      patriarch can atone for the sins of Sergius. Besides, the current
      patriarch has already stated publicly on several occasions that he
      is sorry for the Church's Soviet-era activities and that he regrets
      they ever took place. What more is needed?


      --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "Fr Anthony Bridges"
      <franthony@...> wrote:
      > Vladimir,
      > I am glad you asked the question, "How is it that no one gets it?"
      I am one who "does get it." As someone who has shared your views for
      most of my 10 years in the Russian Church Abroad, I recently came to
      what I sincerely hope is a better understanding of the "other side."
      What I noticed is that all those highly intelligent and articulate
      people who have reversed their positions say they did so after
      meeting people in the Russian Church, in Russia. This doesn't
      necessarily mean that they have met the enemy and have been seduced
      by the charms thereof. It doesn't necessarily mean, either, that
      they have abandoned the concerns they previously expressed about
      Sergianism and Ecumenism. What it could mean is simply that they
      have met these people and believe that they are sincere and
      basically good people who share the same Orthodox faith that we
      > Since we have made some moves toward reconciliation, and they have
      made some reciprocal moves, and everyone has pretty much expressed
      and even codified their objections about the issues, it is possible
      that no more progress can be made unless we move closer to them. So,
      one could take the position that though Sergianism and Ecumenism are
      still serious concerns, some real progress has been made. And, what
      is more, the MP does not officially espouse either of these
      heretical positions as such, though there are still many concerns
      about certain of their activities, and the seeming lack of
      repentance about the past. But perhaps if we can take the next step
      and get to know each other better, then they will see more clearly
      the soundness of our objections, and possibly we will see that,
      after all, there were mitigating circumstances in their history that
      we only heard about, but did not know personally. For now, they
      probably feel that they have said everything there is to say, and
      they are probably wondering, "Why don't they get it?" It may be that
      only after we get to know them better will we even know how to ask
      the questions the way they need to be asked, or that we will see the
      answers we need to see that will allow us to understand. And
      naturally, this process would have to work both ways, or it would
      not work at all.
      > Let me put this another way: I think that many, probably all, of
      the highly intelligent and dedicated people who have changed
      positions on this are just as concerned about Sergianism and
      Ecumenism as we are. However, having met the Russian Orthodox people
      face to face, they are now choosing not to emphasize those concerns.
      In other words, their emphasis has shifted from a concern with
      abstract principles and historical events to a focus on the personal
      and present. I realize that this shift of emphasis may appear to
      some as a descent of the mind into a total lack of clarity. And what
      is more, it may even appear unethical. But this is not necessarily
      the case.
      > There comes a point in negotiations where it no longer
      accomplishes any clear good to remain stubbornly ensconced on one's
      principles, saying, in effect, "I will not budge one inch toward you
      unless and until you conform your personal position to my
      principles, to my complete satisfaction." There comes a point, after
      the other person has moved, where one has to move forward in good
      faith, provided there is no deep and abiding disagreement on
      fundamentals. This has happened many times in Church history, and
      possibly it is now time for it to happen again.
      > Deacon Anthony Bridges
      > Joy of All Who Sorrow
      > Cumming, GA
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Vladimir Koltypin
      > To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 9:26 PM
      > Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: How Serious is This?
      > Fr John,
      > Its not that we "reject" reconciliation. We are all for it, but
      with the right standards. You can't be friends with satan unless he
      repents of his sins and that will never happen. We wish to see the
      Church in Russia repentent for all that went on the last 90 years...
      How is it no one gets that???
      > "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
      > --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Romano Byzantine
      <rbsocc@> wrote:
      > > I see many troubled persons
      > > expressing their concerns, and I see a perfectly viable
      > > jurisdiction facing schisms within all because they wish to
      be under a
      > > patriarch of the Russian Church.
      > JRS: ROCOR never was, and never has claimed to be, "an
      autocephalous jurisdiction".
      > According to our official definition, we are only one part of
      the Russian Orthodox Church.
      > We were "by ourselves" for decades only because of Soviet
      rule: because the Church in
      > Russia was not free.
      > I do not think we are facing any "schisms" at the present
      time, because almost all of those
      > who really wanted to leave, already left several years ago
      with ROCiE (which is now falling
      > apart).
      > However, there is a small group of people who reject the
      current process of reconciliation,
      > and who are very vocal.
      > The flurry of e-mails and "open letters" can make them seem
      more numerous than they
      > really are.
      > One of those activists recently published a protest bearing
      over 700 signatures, among
      > whom I found only a few names that I recognized.
      > And I have been a priest in ROCOR for over 30 years.
      > In Christ
      > Fr. John R. Shaw
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    • DDD
      On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 10:06:26 -0400, Theodora Wright wrote: Thank you.  Sadly so many people do not have access to internet and the modern wonders of this
      Message 50 of 50 , Sep 3, 2006
        On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 10:06:26 -0400, Theodora Wright wrote:
        Thank you.  Sadly so many people do not have access to internet and the
        modern wonders of this world.  Perhaps more vocal communications is needed.
        Who knows.  And yes, time will come when we are all called to account.  I
        find that happens every day  don't you?

        DD: Well, perhaps you could print out the articles on Fr. John Whiteford's web site in hard copy and keep them for those who cannot access the Internet. Just about all libraries have Internet access these days, though.

        What I was referring to was a very BIG change, what Fr. Seraphim Rose kept referring to, when he said, "Today [1970's or '80s] in Russia, tomorrow in America." -- that is, it seemed clear that he believed the persecution of Christians that was at that time going on in the then Soviet Union, would afterwards come to America. That is something greater than what we experience now "every day." Have you read "Fr. Arseny"? Highly recommended.

        I know this is not a comfortable thought to many. Many like to think that it will "never happen to us." All are free to think as they like.

        With love in Christ,
        Dimitra Dwelley
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