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Question about church etiquette

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  • Nicole M Pinkerton
    This Pascha I am supposed to go to an Orthodox church for the first time. Can anyone fill me in on proper etiquette? Having been raised in a Protestant
    Message 1 of 21 , Apr 26, 2005
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      This Pascha I am supposed to go to an Orthodox church for the first time.  Can anyone fill me in on proper etiquette?  Having been raised in a Protestant church, I know the basics, but how is a non-Orthodox supposed to act in an Orthodox church?  By the way, the church is in Ann Arbor.
       
      Nicole Pinkerton
    • Carol Surgant
      Welcome Nicole! I pray that you receive great spiritual benefit from attending this the Feast of Feasts. Some general things that you can observe when visiting
      Message 2 of 21 , Apr 27, 2005
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        Welcome Nicole!
        I pray that you receive great spiritual benefit from attending this the Feast of Feasts.
         
        Some general things that you can observe when visiting an Orthodox Church for the first time:
        (practices might be different depending on which Orthodox Church you go to)
         
        Modest clothing is expected. Adult women generally cover their heads in Church.
         
        When entering the Church you will notice that people make the sign of the cross, light candles and pray at the icons.  You may do this if you wish.  Then find a place to stand for the service.
        Its a good idea to get there early for Pascha in case the Church is very crowded.
        The people will stand for the entire service.  Generally you would only sit if you are sick, or with small children, however, do as much as you are able if you are not used to standing a long time in Church.
        There will be many points in the service when the people will make the sign of the Cross, you may also participate, or just stand quietly.
        At points in the service, the clergy will come out among the people with the incense.  Simply step out of their way as they go around the Church -- its kind of like parting the waters if the Church is very full.  Also during the Paschal service, when the Priest calls out: Christ is Risen!
        the people answer :Truly He is risen, or Indeed He is risen!  This can get kind of boisterous  sometimes, but is really joyful.
        When it is time for Holy Communion, please note that only those baptized and chrismated in the Orthodox Church should go up to receive Communion.
        One final note: the Paschal service can be quite long, so its a good idea to take a very long nap on Saturday afternoon or evening before you go to Church.
        Carol Surgant

        Nicole M Pinkerton <kc8rdb@...> wrote:
        This Pascha I am supposed to go to an Orthodox church for the first time.  Can anyone fill me in on proper etiquette?  Having been raised in a Protestant church, I know the basics, but how is a non-Orthodox supposed to act in an Orthodox church?  By the way, the church is in Ann Arbor.
      • s anderson
        Nicole, I am not sure that what I am about to write to you falls under the subject of etiquette, but it is very important that you wear dressy but comfortable
        Message 3 of 21 , Apr 27, 2005
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          Nicole,
           
          I am not sure that what I am about to write to you falls under the subject of etiquette, but it is very important that you wear dressy but comfortable shoes, preferably ones that you do not mind having a little wet or even muddy.  Most, if not all, Orthodox churches make a procession three times around the church during the Pascha service in the middle  of the night.  So, if Michigan is anything like Montana, where I am living, you will also need a warm coat.  The procession is a lovely, unique experience as long as you are not miserably cold or worried about new shoes getting ruined if it's wet or uneven ground.
           
          Normally, Orthodox Christians are intent on the service of Pascha themselves and are not too worried about what others are doing.  So, as long as you are not disrespectful, you should attract little attention.  Also, like most churches, we have a set of people who rarely show up any time other than the Feast of the Resurrection. The one time I ever had someone be cross with me in a service, because I as a former Protestant didn't do something according to what he had been taught, it turned out to be someone who, the priest later told me, only attended once a year.  So, I learned the lesson of how to behave, because his advice, however crabbily delivered, was good, but chose not to worry too much about having that particular person unhappy with me!
           
          The rules of thumb, as I see them, for a visitor to an Orthodox church are to come in quietly and stand as still as you can.  Quiet and still and standing are the key elements.  If you feel comfortable crossing yourself and reverencing icons and such, by all means feel free to do so.  But no-one will fault you for not doing so.  The beauty of this wonderful rich source of Christianity is its capacity for accepting each person exactly where he is, as did our Lord Jesus Christ, in order to bring healing to our souls. 
           
          If you are in a parish where standing is the norm, standing for as long as a Paschal service normally lasts can be extremely difficult.  Do not allow your fatigue to overwhelm you with sorrow.  Most of us have taken years to develop the set of muscles that assist in standing for extended periods of time.  If I were you, I would position myself near a door where I could step out for a moment if I felt overwhelmed with fatigue.  Another option is to position yourself near a wall or column or pew where you can surreptitiously lean (without slouching--since you are asking about etiquette.)
           
          I wish you all the very best.  You are in for a real treat!!
           
          Susan Anderson

          Nicole M Pinkerton <kc8rdb@...> wrote:
          This Pascha I am supposed to go to an Orthodox church for the first time.  Can anyone fill me in on proper etiquette?  Having been raised in a Protestant church, I know the basics, but how is a non-Orthodox supposed to act in an Orthodox church?  By the way, the church is in Ann Arbor.
           
          Nicole Pinkerton


          Posts to this list need to be signed with your full (and real) name.


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        • aggreen1
          ... time. ... supposed ... ***Without asking you what Orthodox church you will be attending, I suggest doing what the congregants around you do...sit, stand,
          Message 4 of 21 , Apr 27, 2005
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            --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Nicole M Pinkerton <kc8rdb@j...>
            wrote:
            > This Pascha I am supposed to go to an Orthodox church for the first
            time.
            > Can anyone fill me in on proper etiquette? Having been raised in a
            > Protestant church, I know the basics, but how is a non-Orthodox
            supposed
            > to act in an Orthodox church? By the way, the church is in Ann Arbor.
            >
            > Nicole Pinkerton


            ***Without asking you what Orthodox church you will be attending, I
            suggest doing what the congregants around you do...sit, stand, kneel,
            process, etc. You are under no obligation to say any of the prayers, or
            sing any of the hymns, but if there is a prayer book for Pascha
            available, I suggest following along just so you know what the choir
            and priest are saying. God bless. If you have questions afterwards,
            please ask. I can assure you of a spiritual experience unlike anything
            you have experienced before.

            ***God bless.

            Al Green
            Orthodox Church and Bible Study Links
            http://aggreen.net/orth_links/orthlink,html
          • Paul O. Bartlett
            ... There are some people -- Hieromonk Seraphim Rose was one -- in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia who take the position that non-Orthodox should
            Message 5 of 21 , Apr 28, 2005
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              On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, s anderson wrote (excerpt):

              > If you feel comfortable crossing yourself and reverencing icons and
              > such, by all means feel free to do so. But no-one will fault you for
              > not doing so.

              There are some people -- Hieromonk Seraphim Rose was one -- in the
              Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia who take the position that
              non-Orthodox should not venerate icons. However, in a crowded parish
              church or cathedral on Pascha no one is likely to notice. But it is
              always possible that someone might make an issue of it in an extreme
              case.


              --
              Paul O. Bartlett
            • emrys@globe.net.nz
              ... From: Paul O. Bartlett To: ... What a meanspirited attitude! Imagine if Fr Seraphim were there
              Message 6 of 21 , Apr 28, 2005
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Paul O. Bartlett" <bartlett@...>
                To: <orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com>

                >
                > There are some people -- Hieromonk Seraphim Rose was one -- in the
                > Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia who take the position that
                > non-Orthodox should not venerate icons. However, in a crowded parish
                > church or cathedral on Pascha no one is likely to notice. But it is
                > always possible that someone might make an issue of it in an extreme
                > case.

                What a meanspirited attitude! Imagine if Fr Seraphim were there with the
                woman with the issue of blood and had told her not to touch our Lord.

                Fr Ambrose
                -----------
              • Elias G Gorsky
                I know of no one in ROCOR who holds or held that position and doubt very much that Hieromonk Seraphim generally held that position. Archpriest Ilya Gorsky ...
                Message 7 of 21 , Apr 28, 2005
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                  I know of no one in ROCOR who holds or held that position and doubt very
                  much that Hieromonk Seraphim generally held that position.

                  Archpriest Ilya Gorsky

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Paul O. Bartlett [mailto:bartlett@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 7:25 PM
                  To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Question about church etiquette

                  On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, s anderson wrote (excerpt):

                  > If you feel comfortable crossing yourself and reverencing icons and
                  > such, by all means feel free to do so. But no-one will fault you for
                  > not doing so.

                  There are some people -- Hieromonk Seraphim Rose was one -- in the
                  Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia who take the position that
                  non-Orthodox should not venerate icons. However, in a crowded parish
                  church or cathedral on Pascha no one is likely to notice. But it is
                  always possible that someone might make an issue of it in an extreme
                  case.


                  --
                  Paul O. Bartlett






                  Posts to this list need to be signed with your full (and real) name.

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                • DDD
                  Dear Nicole, 1) I ve *never* heard that non-Orthodox may not venerate icons -- it would rather be encouraged. �No one is going to force you to venerate the
                  Message 8 of 21 , Apr 29, 2005
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                    Dear Nicole,

                     

                    1) I've *never* heard that non-Orthodox may not venerate icons -- it would rather be encouraged.  No one is going to force you to venerate the icons, or keep you from venerating them.  Most especially at Pascha!

                     

                    2) Forgive me if anyone else has already said what comes next, but it's nice to know:

                     

                    3) Wear a dress or skirt, no slacks or shorts.  Avoid sleeveless dresses/blouses and go for longer sleeves, but at any rate, some sleeves.  The dress should come at least down to the knee.  Wear a hat or a scarf, as St. Paul says.

                     

                    3a) Leave cell phone home or put it on "manner mode" vibrate instead of ring.

                     

                    3b) As you come in, you may buy candles to put up.  In Russian churches you may not buy these at certain points in the service, but generally no problem right at the beginning of the service.  Some people may be buy small, round loaves called "prosphora" or "prosforki."  These are for Orthodox only.

                     

                     

                    4) Stand except if you see others sitting.  ALWAYS stand at the Gospel readings, and especially during the whole of Holy Communion, and at the Lord's Prayer and the Creed.  Since you are not Orthodox, people will give you leeway if you're tired, but stand during the above-mentioned times at any rate.

                     

                    5) When sitting, it is considered irreverent to cross one's legs or fold one's arms (standing or sitting)--too casual in God's presence.  It's OK to cross your feet at the ankle, however,

                     

                    6) When going up to venerate icons, in a Russian church, make 2 bows (making the Sign of the Cross, right to left, the original way) touching the floor, kiss the icons, and make one more bow afterward.  Greeks make 3 before and 3 afterward, more hurriedly. Go to the right icon first (the Saviour) then the left (the Mother of God).  

                     

                    If there is a bishop present, never walk in front of him but go around back of him.

                     

                     If you wish to ask the priest's blessing with everyone else, put your right hand over your left hand, palms up as you approach the priest.  He will make the Sign of the Cross over you ending by momentarily resting his hand in your cupped hands.

                     

                    If there is a meal afterward, wait for the priest to bless the food before partaking of any food.

                     

                    Hope this helps and have a very special Pascha (Easter)!  

                     

                    --Dimitra Dwelley

                    Holy Epiphany Church

                    Boston, MA

                     


                    �Subject: RE:

                    �I know of no one in ROCOR who holds or held that position and doubt
                    �very much that Hieromonk Seraphim generally held that position.

                    �Archpriest Ilya Gorsky

                  • James Baglien
                    Indeed yes. In fact, when the wonderworking Kursk-Root Icon is traveling, large groups of heterodox (especially in RC countries, such as in South America)
                    Message 9 of 21 , Apr 29, 2005
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                      Indeed yes. In fact, when the wonderworking Kursk-Root Icon is
                      traveling, large groups of heterodox (especially in RC countries, such
                      as in South America) sometimes assemble to do honor to the Icon, and
                      are welcomed and encouraged to do so.

                      Priest James


                      --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Elias G Gorsky
                      <elias.gorsky@e...> wrote:
                      > I know of no one in ROCOR who holds or held that position and doubt
                      very
                      > much that Hieromonk Seraphim generally held that position.
                      >
                      > Archpriest Ilya Gorsky
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Paul O. Bartlett [mailto:bartlett@p...]
                      > Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 7:25 PM
                      > To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Question about church etiquette
                      >
                      > On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, s anderson wrote (excerpt):
                      >
                      > > If you feel comfortable crossing yourself and reverencing icons
                      and
                      > > such, by all means feel free to do so. But no-one will fault you
                      for
                      > > not doing so.
                      >
                      > There are some people -- Hieromonk Seraphim Rose was one -- in
                      the
                      > Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia who take the position that
                      > non-Orthodox should not venerate icons. However, in a crowded
                      parish
                      > church or cathedral on Pascha no one is likely to notice. But it is
                      > always possible that someone might make an issue of it in an extreme
                      > case.
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Paul O. Bartlett
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Posts to this list need to be signed with your full (and real) name.
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • Philosoph
                      Along, these lines one might recall the chapter talking about the bookstore in San Francisco and how they would sell icons to the non-orthodox. Some people
                      Message 10 of 21 , Apr 29, 2005
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                        Along, these lines one might recall the chapter talking about the bookstore
                        in San Francisco and how they would sell icons to the non-orthodox. Some
                        people wanted to make an issue out it, but St John of SF said they could do
                        this as long as the person wasn't going to destroy the icon. They also hung
                        an icon over the door of the bookstore and said a prayer when anyone entered
                        the store, so that the vistors would be blessed.

                        Perhaps someone was recalling some comment about non-orthodox icon painters,
                        rather than about veneration of the icon.

                        Philosoph




                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Elias G Gorsky" <elias.gorsky@...>
                        To: <orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 9:33 PM
                        Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Question about church etiquette


                        > I know of no one in ROCOR who holds or held that position and doubt very
                        > much that Hieromonk Seraphim generally held that position.
                        >
                        > Archpriest Ilya Gorsky
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Paul O. Bartlett [mailto:bartlett@...]
                        > Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 7:25 PM
                        > To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Question about church etiquette
                        >
                        > On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, s anderson wrote (excerpt):
                        >
                        > > If you feel comfortable crossing yourself and reverencing icons and
                        > > such, by all means feel free to do so. But no-one will fault you for
                        > > not doing so.
                        >
                        > There are some people -- Hieromonk Seraphim Rose was one -- in the
                        > Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia who take the position that
                        > non-Orthodox should not venerate icons. However, in a crowded parish
                        > church or cathedral on Pascha no one is likely to notice. But it is
                        > always possible that someone might make an issue of it in an extreme
                        > case.
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > Paul O. Bartlett
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Posts to this list need to be signed with your full (and real) name.
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Posts to this list need to be signed with your full (and real) name.
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Paul O. Bartlett
                        ... In October, 1974, before I became an Orthodox Christian, I visited the St. Herman of Alaska skete near Platina, California, and Father Seraphim Rose (he
                        Message 11 of 21 , Apr 29, 2005
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                          On Fri, 29 Apr 2005, Elias G Gorsky wrote:

                          > I know of no one in ROCOR who holds or held that position and doubt very
                          > much that Hieromonk Seraphim generally held that position.
                          >
                          > Archpriest Ilya Gorsky

                          In October, 1974, before I became an Orthodox Christian, I visited
                          the St. Herman of Alaska skete near Platina, California, and Father
                          Seraphim Rose (he was not yet a priest) politely but firmly and
                          specifically told me that I was not to venerate the icons because I was
                          not Orthodox. In fact, I was not allowed within the church proper, but
                          was told to stand just outside the door (but inside the outer door and
                          out of the weather). Whether Fr. Seraphim changed his position later I
                          can't say, as we got out of touch, but I had that personal experience.

                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Paul O. Bartlett [mailto:bartlett@...]
                          > Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 7:25 PM
                          > To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Question about church etiquette
                          >
                          > On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, s anderson wrote (excerpt):
                          >
                          >> If you feel comfortable crossing yourself and reverencing icons and
                          >> such, by all means feel free to do so. But no-one will fault you for
                          >> not doing so.
                          >
                          > There are some people -- Hieromonk Seraphim Rose was one -- in the
                          > Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia who take the position that
                          > non-Orthodox should not venerate icons. However, in a crowded parish
                          > church or cathedral on Pascha no one is likely to notice. But it is
                          > always possible that someone might make an issue of it in an extreme
                          > case.

                          --
                          Paul O. Bartlett
                        • Stephen/Στέφανος
                          A note, Dimitra........    Greeks who know, venerate icons just the same as the Russians, twice before kissing and once after.   The problem is that in
                          Message 12 of 21 , Apr 29, 2005
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                            A note, Dimitra........    Greeks who know, venerate icons just the same as the Russians, twice before kissing and once after.   The problem is that in this country (the U.S., and sometimes in Greece) most priest and hierarchs do not instruct the Faithful on how to venerate icons properly.    Also, I'm now sure, but in Greece and the U.S. the Faithful may be encouraged to "hurry it up" if there are large crowds waiting to venerate an icon/s....... which I think is horrible.  People of today need to learn patience and some reverence and piety.  

                            I have seen in Greek monasteries,  where the monks do what looks like a  "half-metanoia"  or  "half-prostration"  when venerating the icons; again, twice before and once after.......  I don't know if the Russians do this.

                            Stephanos

                            (Love your name by the way........  very Greek!    We pronounce it  DHEE-mee-trah.)

                            DDD wrote:

                            Dear Nicole,

                             

                            1) I've *never* heard that non-Orthodox may not venerate icons -- it would rather be encouraged.  No one is going to force you to venerate the icons, or keep you from venerating them.  Most especially at Pascha!

                             

                            2) Forgive me if anyone else has already said what comes next, but it's nice to know:

                             

                            3) Wear a dress or skirt, no slacks or shorts.  Avoid sleeveless dresses/blouses and go for longer sleeves, but at any rate, some sleeves.  The dress should come at least down to the knee.  Wear a hat or a scarf, as St. Paul says.

                             

                            3a) Leave cell phone home or put it on "manner mode" vibrate instead of ring.

                             

                            3b) As you come in, you may buy candles to put up.  In Russian churches you may not buy these at certain points in the service, but generally no problem right at the beginning of the service.  Some people may be buy small, round loaves called "prosphora" or "prosforki."  These are for Orthodox only.

                             

                             

                            4) Stand except if you see others sitting.  ALWAYS stand at the Gospel readings, and especially during the whole of Holy Communion, and at the Lord's Prayer and the Creed.  Since you are not Orthodox, people will give you leeway if you're tired, but stand during the above-mentioned times at any rate.

                             

                            5) When sitting, it is considered irreverent to cross one's legs or fold one's arms (standing or sitting)--too casual in God's presence.  It's OK to cross your feet at the ankle, however,

                             

                            6) When going up to venerate icons, in a Russian church, make 2 bows (making the Sign of the Cross, right to left, the original way) touching the floor, kiss the icons, and make one more bow afterward.  Greeks make 3 before and 3 afterward, more hurriedly. Go to the right icon first (the Saviour) then the left (the Mother of God).  

                             

                            If there is a bishop present, never walk in front of him but go around back of him.

                             

                             If you wish to ask the priest's blessing with everyone else, put your right hand over your left hand, palms up as you approach the priest.  He will make the Sign of the Cross over you ending by momentarily resting his hand in your cupped hands.

                             

                            If there is a meal afterward, wait for the priest to bless the food before partaking of any food.

                             

                            Hope this helps and have a very special Pascha (Easter)!  

                             

                            --Dimitra Dwelley

                            Holy Epiphany Church

                            Boston, MA

                             


                            �Subject: RE:

                            �I know of no one in ROCOR who holds or held that position and doubt
                            �very much that Hieromonk Seraphim generally held that position.

                            �Archpriest Ilya Gorsky



                            Posts to this list need to be signed with your full (and real) name.


                          • aggreen1
                            ***I would hope that veneration of icons by anyone would be allowed. To me, the thought that a prient would deny veneration, or even entry into a church, to a
                            Message 13 of 21 , Apr 30, 2005
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                              ***I would hope that veneration of icons by anyone would be allowed.
                              To me, the thought that a prient would deny veneration, or even entry
                              into a church, to a nonOrthodox is repulsive and shocking. What a
                              strange and negative image of exclusivity this gives. While
                              nonOrthodox cannot partake in any of the Church sacraments, the
                              church's liturgical services should be open and available to anyone
                              to attend in a reverent and nonintrusive manner.

                              Al



                              --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "Paul O. Bartlett"
                              <bartlett@p...> wrote:
                              > On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, s anderson wrote (excerpt):
                              >
                              > > If you feel comfortable crossing yourself and reverencing icons
                              and
                              > > such, by all means feel free to do so. But no-one will fault you
                              for
                              > > not doing so.
                              >
                              > There are some people -- Hieromonk Seraphim Rose was one -- in
                              the
                              > Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia who take the position that
                              > non-Orthodox should not venerate icons. However, in a crowded
                              parish
                              > church or cathedral on Pascha no one is likely to notice. But it is
                              > always possible that someone might make an issue of it in an extreme
                              > case.
                              >
                              >
                              > --
                              > Paul O. Bartlett
                            • Fr. Alexis Duncan
                              There is no such thing as a non-Orthodox icon painter :). Only Orthodox Christians may paint icons. Unfortunately there are some who call themselves master
                              Message 14 of 21 , Apr 30, 2005
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                                There is no such thing as a non-Orthodox icon painter :).

                                Only Orthodox Christians may paint icons. Unfortunately
                                there are some who call themselves "master iconographers"
                                who travel about, and for a fee, will teach the "arts and
                                crafts" version of iconography to anyone with the cash.
                                Yuck.

                                _________________________________________________
                                Fr. Alexis Duncan
                                Joy of All Who Sorrow Russian Orthodox Church
                                Atlanta, GA
                                www.orthodoxinfo.biz


                                > Perhaps someone was recalling some comment about
                                > non-orthodox icon painters,
                                > rather than about veneration of the icon.
                                >
                                > Philosoph
                                >
                                >
                              • Elias G Gorsky
                                Thank you, Paul, for sharing your personal experience. I do not doubt it. I am sure Father Serpahim had his reasons at that time. And it was certainly good of
                                Message 15 of 21 , Apr 30, 2005
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                                  Thank you, Paul, for sharing your personal experience. I do not doubt it. I
                                  am sure Father Serpahim had his reasons at that time. And it was certainly
                                  good of you to alert the questioner of the possibility.

                                  I greet you with the coming Feast of the Christ's Resurrection.
                                  Archpriest Ilya Gorsky

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Paul O. Bartlett [mailto:bartlett@...]
                                  Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 6:58 PM
                                  To: 'orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com'
                                  Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Question about church etiquette

                                  On Fri, 29 Apr 2005, Elias G Gorsky wrote:

                                  > I know of no one in ROCOR who holds or held that position and doubt very
                                  > much that Hieromonk Seraphim generally held that position.
                                  >
                                  > Archpriest Ilya Gorsky

                                  In October, 1974, before I became an Orthodox Christian, I visited
                                  the St. Herman of Alaska skete near Platina, California, and Father
                                  Seraphim Rose (he was not yet a priest) politely but firmly and
                                  specifically told me that I was not to venerate the icons because I was
                                  not Orthodox. In fact, I was not allowed within the church proper, but
                                  was told to stand just outside the door (but inside the outer door and
                                  out of the weather). Whether Fr. Seraphim changed his position later I
                                  can't say, as we got out of touch, but I had that personal experience.

                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: Paul O. Bartlett [mailto:bartlett@...]
                                  > Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 7:25 PM
                                  > To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Question about church etiquette
                                  >
                                  > On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, s anderson wrote (excerpt):
                                  >
                                  >> If you feel comfortable crossing yourself and reverencing icons and
                                  >> such, by all means feel free to do so. But no-one will fault you for
                                  >> not doing so.
                                  >
                                  > There are some people -- Hieromonk Seraphim Rose was one -- in the
                                  > Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia who take the position that
                                  > non-Orthodox should not venerate icons. However, in a crowded parish
                                  > church or cathedral on Pascha no one is likely to notice. But it is
                                  > always possible that someone might make an issue of it in an extreme
                                  > case.

                                  --
                                  Paul O. Bartlett






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                                • aggreen1
                                  ***Stephen, how about sending your posts in plain text rather than HTML? Then some of us won t see strange characters mixed in with your message. Thanks. Al
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Apr 30, 2005
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                                    ***Stephen, how about sending your posts in plain text rather than
                                    HTML? Then some of us won't see strange characters mixed in with your
                                    message. Thanks.

                                    Al




                                    --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Stephen/Στέφανος
                                    <sbuatl@c...> wrote:
                                    >
                                  • aggreen1
                                    ***This is an interesting post, Father Alexis. What is there about Orthodoxy and iconography that is exclusive to the eastern Church? Were there not
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Apr 30, 2005
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                                      ***This is an interesting post, Father Alexis. What is there about
                                      Orthodoxy and iconography that is exclusive to the eastern Church?
                                      Were there not iconographers in the west as well as the east in the
                                      pre-schism Church? I believe so. What was there about the schism that
                                      made iconography the exclusive purvue of Holy Orthodoxy?

                                      Al



                                      --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Alexis Duncan"
                                      <7848@a...> wrote:
                                      > There is no such thing as a non-Orthodox icon painter :).
                                      >
                                      > Only Orthodox Christians may paint icons. Unfortunately
                                      > there are some who call themselves "master iconographers"
                                      > who travel about, and for a fee, will teach the "arts and
                                      > crafts" version of iconography to anyone with the cash.
                                      > Yuck.
                                      >
                                      > _________________________________________________
                                      > Fr. Alexis Duncan
                                      > Joy of All Who Sorrow Russian Orthodox Church
                                      > Atlanta, GA
                                      > www.orthodoxinfo.biz
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > Perhaps someone was recalling some comment about
                                      > > non-orthodox icon painters,
                                      > > rather than about veneration of the icon.
                                      > >
                                      > > Philosoph
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                    • DDD
                                      For all we know, some old babushka could have told him this, and so he followed it way back then. It is evident, however, from Fr. Seraphim s own writings that
                                      Message 18 of 21 , May 1, 2005
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                                        For all we know, some old babushka could have told him this, and so he followed it way back then.
                                        It is evident, however, from Fr. Seraphim's own writings that in his later years he matured and changed the nature of his zeal--he didn't lose it, but applied it with more discernment (that is, he may have seemed "mellower" later on). It's quite probable he wouldn't have done the same thing to you in 1982, as far as the icons go.

                                        Anyone else on this list who had the opportunity to meet Fr. Seraphim while they were not Orthodox?


                                        --Dimitra



                                        � ��"�In October, 1974, before I became an Orthodox Christian, I
                                        �visited the St. Herman of Alaska skete"
                                      • Nicole M Pinkerton
                                        Group, Just wanted to drop a note to thank you all for your advice. It proved to be very helpful. Attending that Pascha service last night was certainly
                                        Message 19 of 21 , May 1, 2005
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                                          Group,
                                          Just wanted to drop a note to thank you all for your advice. It proved
                                          to be very helpful. Attending that Pascha service last night was
                                          certainly among the best experiences I have ever had. I am trusting that
                                          another visit can be made by June when I will be leaving MI for MO.
                                          Having seen the Pascha service, it has only increased my desire to go to
                                          a "regular" Sunday service. Once again, thanks.

                                          Nicole
                                        • Reader Timothy Tadros
                                          Christ is Risen! Al-Massieh Qam! Xristos Anesti! Christos Voskrese! In my own experience of giving tours at Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville, if we know
                                          Message 20 of 21 , May 2, 2005
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                                            Christ is Risen! Al-Massieh Qam! Xristos Anesti! Christos Voskrese!
                                            In my own experience of giving tours at Holy Trinity Monastery in
                                            Jordanville, if we know of thier intentions of becoming Orthodox and
                                            are receptive to venerate the icons, then yes. Surprisingly some
                                            coverts from protestant backgrounds have and still reject the idea of
                                            how we venerate the icons. Convert's that really never converted in
                                            mine eyes.
                                            Two years in a row we had a bus load of Moonies that would come and
                                            want to venerate the "God-Father" icon and "Mother-Goddess" icon they
                                            would bring two, two dozen of roses to be set before them. I received
                                            them and thanked them for the beautiful flowers and when they left
                                            threw them in the garbage! Why profane the Holy!
                                            They would try to perform a group prayer service but I would not
                                            allow it. Later I found out, they would go to the cemetery and hold
                                            their service there. In general heterdox and other visitors are asked
                                            not to participate or enter into the church during services!
                                            Having been to some of the Elder Ephraim monasteries I know they
                                            do not allow heterodox to even enter the nave unless they are a
                                            Catachumen and then only can they stay in the back. Heterodox can
                                            attend a service but must stay in the exo-narthex and cannot enter
                                            the nave.
                                            Rdr. Timothy Tadros


                                            --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Elias G Gorsky
                                            <elias.gorsky@e...> wrote:
                                            > Thank you, Paul, for sharing your personal experience. I do not
                                            doubt it. I
                                            > am sure Father Serpahim had his reasons at that time. And it was
                                            certainly
                                            > good of you to alert the questioner of the possibility.
                                            >
                                            > I greet you with the coming Feast of the Christ's Resurrection.
                                            > Archpriest Ilya Gorsky
                                            >
                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: Paul O. Bartlett [mailto:bartlett@p...]
                                            > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 6:58 PM
                                            > To: 'orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com'
                                            > Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Question about church etiquette
                                            >
                                            > On Fri, 29 Apr 2005, Elias G Gorsky wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > I know of no one in ROCOR who holds or held that position and
                                            doubt very
                                            > > much that Hieromonk Seraphim generally held that position.
                                            > >
                                            > > Archpriest Ilya Gorsky
                                            >
                                            > In October, 1974, before I became an Orthodox Christian, I
                                            visited
                                            > the St. Herman of Alaska skete near Platina, California, and Father
                                            > Seraphim Rose (he was not yet a priest) politely but firmly and
                                            > specifically told me that I was not to venerate the icons because I
                                            was
                                            > not Orthodox. In fact, I was not allowed within the church proper,
                                            but
                                            > was told to stand just outside the door (but inside the outer door
                                            and
                                            > out of the weather). Whether Fr. Seraphim changed his position
                                            later I
                                            > can't say, as we got out of touch, but I had that personal
                                            experience.
                                            >
                                            > > -----Original Message-----
                                            > > From: Paul O. Bartlett [mailto:bartlett@p...]
                                            > > Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 7:25 PM
                                            > > To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Question about church etiquette
                                            > >
                                            > > On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, s anderson wrote (excerpt):
                                            > >
                                            > >> If you feel comfortable crossing yourself and reverencing icons
                                            and
                                            > >> such, by all means feel free to do so. But no-one will fault
                                            you for
                                            > >> not doing so.
                                            > >
                                            > > There are some people -- Hieromonk Seraphim Rose was one --
                                            in the
                                            > > Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia who take the position that
                                            > > non-Orthodox should not venerate icons. However, in a crowded
                                            parish
                                            > > church or cathedral on Pascha no one is likely to notice. But it
                                            is
                                            > > always possible that someone might make an issue of it in an
                                            extreme
                                            > > case.
                                            >
                                            > --
                                            > Paul O. Bartlett
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Posts to this list need to be signed with your full (and real) name.
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          • aggreen1
                                            ***This sounds like the practice in a cloistered Trappist monastery I visited in Massachusetts a few years ago, to buy some jams and jellies, of course ;-)
                                            Message 21 of 21 , May 2, 2005
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                                              ***This sounds like the practice in a cloistered Trappist monastery I
                                              visited in Massachusetts a few years ago, to buy some jams and
                                              jellies, of course ;-) Visitors were allowed only one little corner
                                              opposite the main altar and could hardly see the monks do theeir
                                              prayer service.

                                              ***Does anyone know if excluding nonOrthodox from viewing Orthodox
                                              services has actually turned them off to Orthodoxy? It does seem like
                                              a big negative to me.

                                              Al


                                              --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "Reader Timothy Tadros"
                                              <tadros@a...> wrote:
                                              > Christ is Risen! Al-Massieh Qam! Xristos Anesti! Christos
                                              Voskrese!
                                              > In my own experience of giving tours at Holy Trinity Monastery in
                                              > Jordanville, if we know of thier intentions of becoming Orthodox
                                              and
                                              > are receptive to venerate the icons, then yes. Surprisingly some
                                              > coverts from protestant backgrounds have and still reject the idea
                                              of
                                              > how we venerate the icons. Convert's that really never converted in
                                              > mine eyes.
                                              > Two years in a row we had a bus load of Moonies that would come
                                              and
                                              > want to venerate the "God-Father" icon and "Mother-Goddess" icon
                                              they
                                              > would bring two, two dozen of roses to be set before them. I
                                              received
                                              > them and thanked them for the beautiful flowers and when they left
                                              > threw them in the garbage! Why profane the Holy!
                                              > They would try to perform a group prayer service but I would not
                                              > allow it. Later I found out, they would go to the cemetery and hold
                                              > their service there. In general heterdox and other visitors are
                                              asked
                                              > not to participate or enter into the church during services!
                                              > Having been to some of the Elder Ephraim monasteries I know they
                                              > do not allow heterodox to even enter the nave unless they are a
                                              > Catachumen and then only can they stay in the back. Heterodox can
                                              > attend a service but must stay in the exo-narthex and cannot enter
                                              > the nave.
                                              > Rdr. Timothy Tadros
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Elias G Gorsky
                                              > <elias.gorsky@e...> wrote:
                                              > > Thank you, Paul, for sharing your personal experience. I do not
                                              > doubt it. I
                                              > > am sure Father Serpahim had his reasons at that time. And it was
                                              > certainly
                                              > > good of you to alert the questioner of the possibility.
                                              > >
                                              > > I greet you with the coming Feast of the Christ's Resurrection.
                                              > > Archpriest Ilya Gorsky
                                              > >
                                              > > -----Original Message-----
                                              > > From: Paul O. Bartlett [mailto:bartlett@p...]
                                              > > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 6:58 PM
                                              > > To: 'orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com'
                                              > > Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Question about church etiquette
                                              > >
                                              > > On Fri, 29 Apr 2005, Elias G Gorsky wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > > I know of no one in ROCOR who holds or held that position and
                                              > doubt very
                                              > > > much that Hieromonk Seraphim generally held that position.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Archpriest Ilya Gorsky
                                              > >
                                              > > In October, 1974, before I became an Orthodox Christian, I
                                              > visited
                                              > > the St. Herman of Alaska skete near Platina, California, and
                                              Father
                                              > > Seraphim Rose (he was not yet a priest) politely but firmly and
                                              > > specifically told me that I was not to venerate the icons because
                                              I
                                              > was
                                              > > not Orthodox. In fact, I was not allowed within the church
                                              proper,
                                              > but
                                              > > was told to stand just outside the door (but inside the outer
                                              door
                                              > and
                                              > > out of the weather). Whether Fr. Seraphim changed his position
                                              > later I
                                              > > can't say, as we got out of touch, but I had that personal
                                              > experience.
                                              > >
                                              > > > -----Original Message-----
                                              > > > From: Paul O. Bartlett [mailto:bartlett@p...]
                                              > > > Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 7:25 PM
                                              > > > To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Question about church etiquette
                                              > > >
                                              > > > On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, s anderson wrote (excerpt):
                                              > > >
                                              > > >> If you feel comfortable crossing yourself and reverencing
                                              icons
                                              > and
                                              > > >> such, by all means feel free to do so. But no-one will fault
                                              > you for
                                              > > >> not doing so.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > There are some people -- Hieromonk Seraphim Rose was one --
                                              > in the
                                              > > > Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia who take the position
                                              that
                                              > > > non-Orthodox should not venerate icons. However, in a crowded
                                              > parish
                                              > > > church or cathedral on Pascha no one is likely to notice. But
                                              it
                                              > is
                                              > > > always possible that someone might make an issue of it in an
                                              > extreme
                                              > > > case.
                                              > >
                                              > > --
                                              > > Paul O. Bartlett
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Posts to this list need to be signed with your full (and real)
                                              name.
                                              > >
                                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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