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Re: Martial Arts and the Church

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  • Athanasios Jayne
    Well, as a strictly physical technique, I doubt there would be any problem. However, many martial arts schools, in imitation of Japanese practice, have a god
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 13 5:28 PM
      Well, as a strictly physical technique, I doubt there
      would be any problem. However, many martial arts
      schools, in imitation of Japanese practice, have a
      "god shelf" or something similar on the premises,
      which all students are expected to bow towards.
      Many also mix pagan spiritual beliefs with the
      physical aspect.

      Athanasios.

      --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Nicholas Trahan <ntrahan@s...> wrote:
      > Will someone please help me and tell me if there is a teaching or the Church
      > pertaining to participation in the Martial Arts.
      >
      > Thank you,
      >
      > Nicholas Trahan
    • J.E. Powers
      However, many martial arts schools, in imitation of Japanese practice, have a god shelf or something similar on the premises, which all students are expected
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 13 5:36 PM
        However, many martial arts
        schools, in imitation of Japanese practice, have a
        "god shelf" or something similar on the premises,
        which all students are expected to bow towards.
        Many also mix pagan spiritual beliefs with the
        physical aspect.

        Athanasios.
        +++++++++

        My son's dojo did not have a god shelf, but the students were asked to bow in and bow out. I told Benjamin not to bow. They also asked students to remove all jewelry. And so, the sensei asked Ben to remove his cross. I told him that his cross was not jewelry and I prefer he left it on.
        -Elizabeth,
        St. Alexander Nevsky Church

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Golden
        I know of two priests who have studied Tai Chi in Toronto. They are both extremely knowledgeable, pious men. They studied the marshal art form of Tai Chi, not
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 13 5:47 PM
          I know of two priests who have studied Tai Chi in Toronto. They are
          both extremely knowledgeable, pious men. They studied the marshal art
          form of Tai Chi, not the contemplative.

          Seraphim
        • emrys@globe.net.nz
          ... From: Athanasios Jayne ... Yes, our Holy Synod also approved for many years in the Jordanville Prayer Book the atrocious Tale of
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 13 6:21 PM
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Athanasios Jayne" <athanasiosj@...>


            > --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com,
            > <emrys@g...> wrote:
            > >
            > >It was great sadness to many people to
            > discover that the present edition of the
            > Jordanville Prayer Book has been drastically
            > altered to its detriment.<
            >
            > Of course, by this, Hieromonk Ambrose
            > is (at least in part) referring to material
            > in the later editions wherein the Toll Houses
            > are mentioned--editions which have been
            > approved by our Holy Synod for years.

            Yes, our Holy Synod also "approved" for many years in the Jordanville Prayer
            Book the atrocious Tale of the Five Prayers (is it still in the latest
            editions?)- a magical device, nonetheless with the authority of Saint Dmitri
            of Rostov, which guarantees that Christ will come at death to take the soul
            into eternal life. Pure piffle!

            The Synod almost certainly has exercised insufficient oversight over some of
            the things which have been included in the Jordanville Prayer Book and
            things such as the "Five Prayers" have been included at the whim of
            unsupervised editors.

            Fr Ambrose
            _____________________________
          • aggreen1
            ... to bow in and bow out. I told Benjamin not to bow. They also asked students to remove all jewelry. And so, the sensei asked Ben to remove his cross. I
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 13 7:08 PM
              --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "J.E. Powers"
              <jepowers70@v...> wrote:
              > However, many martial arts
              > schools, in imitation of Japanese practice, have a
              > "god shelf" or something similar on the premises,
              > which all students are expected to bow towards.
              > Many also mix pagan spiritual beliefs with the
              > physical aspect.
              >
              > Athanasios.
              > +++++++++
              >
              > My son's dojo did not have a god shelf, but the students were asked
              to bow in and bow out. I told Benjamin not to bow. They also asked
              students to remove all jewelry. And so, the sensei asked Ben to
              remove his cross. I told him that his cross was not jewelry and I
              prefer he left it on.
              > -Elizabeth,
              > St. Alexander Nevsky Church

              ***Elizabeth, can I assume that the "dojo" backed off?

              ***When you see John Lukianov, please tell him "hello" for me.

              Al Green
            • Jennifer Lultschik
              ... My children (and I, at one time) have taken martial arts at more than one school and in more than one martial arts tradition. We never patronized schools
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 13 8:19 PM
                On 9/13/04 10:08 PM, "aggreen1" <aggreen1@...> wrote:

                > --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "J.E. Powers"
                > <jepowers70@v...> wrote:
                >> However, many martial arts
                >> schools, in imitation of Japanese practice, have a
                >> "god shelf" or something similar on the premises,
                >> which all students are expected to bow towards.
                >> Many also mix pagan spiritual beliefs with the
                >> physical aspect.
                >>
                >> Athanasios.
                >> +++++++++
                >>
                >> My son's dojo did not have a god shelf, but the students were asked
                > to bow in and bow out. I told Benjamin not to bow. They also asked
                > students to remove all jewelry. And so, the sensei asked Ben to
                > remove his cross. I told him that his cross was not jewelry and I
                > prefer he left it on.
                >> -Elizabeth,
                >> St. Alexander Nevsky Church
                >
                > ***Elizabeth, can I assume that the "dojo" backed off?
                >
                > ***When you see John Lukianov, please tell him "hello" for me.
                >
                > Al Green

                My children (and I, at one time) have taken martial arts at more than one
                school and in more than one martial arts tradition. We never patronized
                schools where there was a 'god shelf' or a requirement to bow toward a
                pagan/spiritual 'corner'. Bowing in and out of class was done as a mark of
                respect to the instructor, nothing more. In their current classes, students
                were asked to remove jewelry; my children informed the instructor that their
                crosses were not jewelry, and were assured that wearing their crosses would
                be honored by the school. I have had far more trouble with the gym teachers
                at the Canadian public schools over their crosses! I think that if one
                wishes to take martial arts, the important thing is to seek out a school
                that teaches the physical sport and does not teach any spiritual aspect.
                That would not be acceptable for an Orthodox Christian. There are schools
                available that (certainly to the level that most people achieve) just teach
                the physical sport.

                Katherine L.
                Church of the Nativity

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              • J.E. Powers
                and does not teach any spiritual aspect. That would not be acceptable for an Orthodox Christian. There are schools available that (certainly to the level that
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 14 5:05 AM
                  and does not teach any spiritual aspect.
                  That would not be acceptable for an Orthodox Christian. There are schools
                  available that (certainly to the level that most people achieve) just teach
                  the physical sport.

                  Katherine L.
                  Church of the Nativity
                  +++++++

                  I think this was the case in my son's school too, especially since there was no "shelf." The sensei was also a Christian man (not Orthodox though) so perhaps that played a part in it.

                  -Elizabeth,
                  St. Alexander Nevsky Church

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • J.E. Powers
                  ***Elizabeth, can I assume that the dojo backed off? ***When you see John Lukianov, please tell him hello for me. Al Green ++++++++ They did indeed back
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 14 5:08 AM
                    ***Elizabeth, can I assume that the "dojo" backed off?

                    ***When you see John Lukianov, please tell him "hello" for me.

                    Al Green
                    ++++++++

                    They did indeed back off.

                    Al - I know several Johns in our church but Lukianov does not sound familiar. I'm at St. Alexander Nevsky in Richmond, Maine.
                    -Elizabeth

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • aggreen1
                    ... familiar. I m at St. Alexander Nevsky in Richmond, Maine. ... ***I was referring to the son of the protopresbyter at St. Alexander Nevsky Cathedral in
                    Message 9 of 21 , Sep 14 5:38 AM
                      --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "J.E. Powers"
                      <jepowers70@v...> wrote:
                      > ***Elizabeth, can I assume that the "dojo" backed off?
                      >
                      > ***When you see John Lukianov, please tell him "hello" for me.
                      >
                      > Al Green
                      > ++++++++
                      >
                      > They did indeed back off.
                      >
                      > Al - I know several Johns in our church but Lukianov does not sound
                      familiar. I'm at St. Alexander Nevsky in Richmond, Maine.
                      > -Elizabeth


                      ***I was referring to the son of the protopresbyter at St. Alexander
                      Nevsky Cathedral in Lakewood, NJ. John L. is a friend...we worked
                      together as technical writers for several years at Lucent
                      Technologies.

                      Al
                    • Athanasios Jayne
                      Dear Hieromonk Ambrose, Could you be a little more explicit? Has permission for a reprint been granted by Holy Trinity Monastery (which, I have been told, is
                      Message 10 of 21 , Sep 15 5:38 AM
                        Dear Hieromonk Ambrose,

                        Could you be a little more explicit?
                        Has permission for a reprint been
                        granted by Holy Trinity Monastery
                        (which, I have been told, is the
                        copyright holder).

                        Thank you.

                        Athanasios.
                      • emrys@globe.net.nz
                        ... From: Athanasios Jayne ... Saint George Orthodox Information Service in the UK informs that permission was granted by the First
                        Message 11 of 21 , Sep 15 5:43 AM
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Athanasios Jayne" <athanasiosj@...>

                          > Dear Hieromonk Ambrose,
                          >
                          > Could you be a little more explicit?
                          > Has permission for a reprint been
                          > granted by Holy Trinity Monastery
                          > (which, I have been told, is the
                          > copyright holder).

                          Saint George Orthodox Information Service in the UK informs that permission
                          was granted by the First Hierarch of the Russian Church Abroad His Eminence
                          Metropolitan Lavr.

                          ______________________________________
                        • emrys@globe.net.nz
                          ... From: Athanasios Jayne ... I think that Fr Lazarus first editions were published by himself in the 1950s when he was in Madras.
                          Message 12 of 21 , Sep 15 5:49 AM
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Athanasios Jayne" <athanasiosj@...>


                            > Could you be a little more explicit?
                            > Has permission for a reprint been
                            > granted by Holy Trinity Monastery
                            > (which, I have been told, is the
                            > copyright holder).

                            I think that Fr Lazarus' first editions were published by himself in the
                            1950s when he was in Madras. Whether he then transferred/gifted/sold the
                            copyright to Jordanville (would that be some sort of Charitable Trust or
                            Registered Company?) I do not know. Maybe someone on the list may know? Fr
                            John?

                            Fr Ambrose
                            ________________________
                          • Fr. John R. Shaw
                            ... the ... the ... or ... know? Fr ... JRS: Fr. Lazarus published his *Psalter*, along with some other material, in Madras, but in the late 1960 s. The
                            Message 13 of 21 , Sep 15 8:33 AM
                              Regarding:

                              > I think that Fr Lazarus' first editions were published by himself in
                              the
                              > 1950s when he was in Madras. Whether he then transferred/gifted/sold
                              the
                              > copyright to Jordanville (would that be some sort of Charitable Trust
                              or
                              > Registered Company?) I do not know. Maybe someone on the list may
                              know? Fr
                              > John?

                              JRS: Fr. Lazarus published his *Psalter*, along with some other
                              material, in Madras, but in the late 1960's.

                              The *Jordanville Prayerbook*, with his translations, was published only
                              by Holy Trinity Monastery in 1960, and although it does not
                              say "copyright", the flyleaf says that it was published by the Print
                              Shop of St. Job of Pochaev, with the blessing of the Russian Orthodox
                              Church Outside Russia.

                              It also does *not* bear Fr. Lazarus' name anywhere in the book, so even
                              though his translations were followed, it was clearly a "Jordanville",
                              rather than a "Fr.-Lazarus", edition.

                              Later it was reissued by photo-offset in Japan, through, I believe,
                              the efforts of the late Protodeacon Nikita Chakiroff -- who was
                              Metropolitan Philaret's personal attendant.

                              The original text was clearly set in type at Jordanville. I used to
                              work in the printery there myself as a seminarian, and recognize the
                              typeface that was used there for most English-language texts.

                              In Christ
                              Fr. John R. Shaw
                            • mik opar
                              Al - I know several Johns in our church but Lukianov does not sound familiar. I m at St. Alexander Nevsky in Richmond, Maine. -Elizabeth Dear Elizabeth, I
                              Message 14 of 21 , Oct 13, 2004
                                Al - I know several Johns in our church but Lukianov does not sound familiar. I'm at St. Alexander Nevsky in Richmond, Maine.
                                -Elizabeth

                                Dear Elizabeth, I spoke once with your Priest...a Fr Chad I believe and also is Mrs, Lepushenko still attending there, here husband was a Russian stove mason?? Mike Wurzbacher....Tranfiguration of Our Lord ROC, Baltimore, Md thanks,,,,,mik


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                              • J.E. Powers
                                Dear Elizabeth, I spoke once with your Priest...a Fr Chad I believe and also is Mrs, Lepushenko still attending there, here husband was a Russian stove mason??
                                Message 15 of 21 , Oct 18, 2004
                                  Dear Elizabeth, I spoke once with your Priest...a Fr Chad I believe and also is Mrs, Lepushenko still attending there, here husband was a Russian stove mason?? Mike Wurzbacher....Tranfiguration of Our Lord ROC, Baltimore, Md thanks,,,,,mik
                                  +++++++++++++

                                  Good morning Mike. Fr. Chad is the priest at our church. Mrs. Lepushenko does still attend. Her husband reposed a couple of years ago.
                                  -Elizabeth,

                                  St. Alexander Nevsky Church,
                                  Richmond, Maine

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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