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RE: [orthodox-rocor] New discovery in China shows influence of Nestorian Christianity

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  • David Starr
    Dear Fr. John et al.: XPICTOC BBOCKPECE! Kuanyin is not strictly-speaking a god in traditional Buddhism, but an emanation of the Boddhisattva ( enlightenment
    Message 1 of 3 , May 4, 2001
      Dear Fr. John et al.:
      Kuanyin is not strictly-speaking a god in traditional Buddhism, but an
      emanation of the Boddhisattva ("enlightenment being", Avalokiteshvara. The
      "gods" of India function in Buddhist cosmology as finite but powerful
      sentient beings, who are said to have been converted to Buddhism by the
      preaching of Sidhartha Gautama, known as "Buddha"--a name which means "the
      awakened" or "the enlightened one." He is said to have been a human being
      who realized truths about human suffering, giving rise to compassion.
      Neither he nor the "gods" who populate the Buddhist universe are in any real
      sense rivals to the true God. Boddhisattvas are understood to be human
      beings who achieved such excellence that they became personifications of
      such virtues as wisdom and compassion. Of these, Avalokiteshvara (whose name
      means "hearer of the cries [of the suffering world]") became very popular in
      Tibet under the name, Chenrezig. His enlightenment was thought to have been
      such that he could appear in many guises for the benefit of mankind; one of
      these was a feminine manifestation, named "Tara." She is perhaps the
      original of which Kuanyin in China is a development. Such beings function
      analogously to saints, inasmuch as they are thought to be men whose
      spiritual attainments enabled them to do good in supernaturally potent ways.
      None of this has a thing to do with the Theotokos, though the imagery of a
      very kind and powerful woman who offers great help to suffering humanity is
      in common. What Buddhism most importantly lacks is a kataphatic
      understanding of the Holy Trinity or the Incarnation of our Lord, God and
      Saviour, Jesus Christ. For all its metaphysical elaboration and subtlety, it
      is a humanistic attempt to generate virtues to help human beings cope with
      the soul-destroying passions and the sufferings attendant upon our sinful
      condition. As such, it has both the sorts of insight and virtue for which
      some of the Holy Fathers saw some Greek philosophers as striving toward our
      Faith; it also comes with cultural tendencies toward idolatry, pride and
      mistaken notions of something like a doctrine of the divinity of man. It is
      very like Platonism in these ways, particularly the late Academy, which
      atttempted to compete with the Church for the souls of Graeco-Roman people.
      Protestant allegations of "influence" are mostly ignorant claims that depend
      entirely on chance similarities; the more one knows, the less weight they
      carry. Kuanyin is probably no more modelled on the Theotokos than She is on
      Kuanyin; the Mother of God the Son according to the flesh is a historical
      woman, while Tara/Kuanyin is evidently a mythic elaboration of Buddhist
      The "politically correct" multi-cultural spin in the U.S. News story is, of
      course, very ignorant of what the Orthodox Faith truly is, describing
      Nestorianism in terms which partly reflect its similarity to Orthodoxy
      (e.g., an understanding of "original sin" without inherited guilt or a
      helplessly unfree will, and the meatless monastic diet); on the other hand,
      the bias is clearly not conducive to true faith. It suggests that whatever
      was good in Nestorianism must have come from native Chinese tradition. The
      Fordham story, on the other hand is much better. The gospel of Christ may
      have been far better represented in Asia than we know; may it be so.
      In Him, David

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Fr. John Whiteford [mailto:frjohnwhiteford@...]
      > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 11:50 AM
      > To: The Rocor List; The Orthodox List
      > Subject: [orthodox-rocor] New discovery in China shows influence of
      > Nestorian Christianity
      > This article is interesting for a couple of reasons:
      > 1. I had wondered how it was that the Buddhist god,
      > Bodhisattva (who is believed to be an "emination" of
      > the Buddha) went from being depicted as a man, to
      > being depicted as a woman. The Bodhisattva is the god
      > of mercy and compassion in Buddhism. In China, the
      > Bodhisattva is called Guanyin, and is depicted as
      > woman... usually with a child.
      > 2. I have heard Protestants use the similiarity
      > between the depiction of Guanyin and the Virgin Mary
      > to argue that this reflects the pagan influence on the
      > Church when this article shows that the reverse is the
      > case.
      > 3. This is another bit of evidence that the
      > Nestorians were not originally iconoclastic... another
      > bit of evidence being the Sian-fu Stone inscription:
      > http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/eastasia/781nestorian.html
      > Which mentions how the first Nestorian bishop came to
      > China with both sacred texts and images.
      > *****************************************
      > http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/010305/china.htm
      > Did Christianity thrive in China?
      > Digging for evidence in an ancient church
      > By Bay Fang
      > LOU GUAN TAI, CHINA–Martin Palmer was covered in bird
      > droppings when he made the discovery of a lifetime. He
      > clambered up a rickety ladder into the ancient pagoda,
      > picked his way through broken tiles and wood beams,
      > looked up–and was shocked by what he saw. Above him,
      > shrouded in dust, was a 10-foot-high clay grotto. The
      > top was classical Tang dynasty sculpture, but at the
      > bottom were the remains of a figure, one leg cocked
      > and wearing flowing robes. Palmer recognized it at
      > once: "It was a depiction of the Virgin Mary, and I
      > was looking at China's first Nativity scene."
      > Here, beneath fields of kiwi fruit bushes, lay what is
      > likely the oldest surviving Christian site in all of
      > China. Dating back to 638 A.D., the site provides the
      > first evidence that Christianity thrived throughout
      > China from the seventh to the ninth centuries as the
      > imperially sanctioned "religion of light." The
      > excavation project was launched last week. "If they
      > have found any Christian buildings, it would be an
      > earthshaking discovery," says Jason Sun, associate
      > curator of Asian art at the Metropolitan Museum of
      > Art.
      > Palmer, who heads the Britain-based Alliance of
      > Religions and Conservation, became interested in the
      > site while translating ancient Christian scrolls that
      > describe it. His research turned up a map, made by
      > Japanese spies posing as archaeologists, who had
      > charted the area before Japan's invasion of China in
      > 1937. The map showed only religious sites (and, if
      > soaked in lemon juice, every military post in the
      > county). Palmer followed it to an area 50 miles
      > southwest of the ancient Chinese capital of Xi'an,
      > where there stood a leaning pagoda called Da Qin,
      > meaning "To the West."
      > Nun's tale. Palmer's first clue to the significance of
      > the site came when he climbed a hill overlooking it.
      > Looking down, he realized that the site was laid out
      > not on a north-south axis, as Chinese temples are, but
      > instead pointing toward the east like a proper
      > Christian church. Palmer ran excitedly down the hill
      > and was immediately confronted by an old Buddhist nun,
      > who demanded to know why he was shouting. When Palmer
      > told her he thought the site was Christian, she
      > surprised him by snapping, "Of course it was! This was
      > the most famous Christian site in all of China!"
      > Previously, all that scholars knew about the earliest
      > Christians in China came from the Nestorian Stone, a
      > tablet discovered in the 17th century that describes
      > the arrival of Christian missionaries in 635 A.D. Led
      > by a Bishop Alopen, they came from modern-day
      > Afghanistan and did not recognize the pope. But in the
      > absence of other documentation, they had long been
      > considered a marginal group that never penetrated
      > Chinese culture. But Palmer's discovery shows how
      > important these first Christians really were: Their
      > church sits squarely in the middle of what was an
      > imperial compound for the study of Taoism, the
      > official religion of the Tang dynasty.
      > The finding demonstrates the religion's powerful
      > influence on Chinese culture. For example, the goddess
      > of mercy, Guanyin, is the most popular Chinese deity
      > and for centuries was depicted as male. It was not
      > until the eighth century, when Christianity was at its
      > height in China, that Guanyin began appearing as a
      > female, wearing robes and carrying a baby–just like
      > the Virgin Mary. "Here we see a Christian figure
      > passing into Chinese folk religion," says Palmer.
      > The discovery also introduces a uniquely Chinese brand
      > of Christianity. This version, mixed with Taoism and
      > Buddhism, differed from the Roman church by discarding
      > the idea of original sin and preaching against slavery
      > and for gender equality and vegetarianism. "At the
      > time Rome was trying to convert Anglo-Saxons to
      > Christianity," says Palmer, "the church in China had
      > developed another understanding of Christ that was
      > more egalitarian, compassionate, and all-encompassing
      > than the one in the West."
      > The excavated site is expected to become a major
      > tourist attraction. Excavation of the sealed
      > underground rooms, beginning this summer, could turn
      > up liturgical vessels, scripts, and statues of saints.
      > Palmer is working with Chinese officials on plans for
      > a museum to house the artifacts. But sometimes he
      > thinks back on the moment of discovery: "We all
      > stopped suddenly in front of the Nativity scene and
      > realized we would tell the world, and this was the
      > last time it would be our secret. Then we all bowed
      > and went out."
      > http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/eastasia/781nestorian.html
      > =====
      > ********************************************************
      > * Fr. John Whiteford IC -|- XC *
      > * ----|---- *
      > * St. Jonah of Manchuria Orthodox Mission | *
      > * Serving the Spring, Woodlands, \| *
      > * and Conroe, Texas area. |\ *
      > * http://www.saintjonah.org/ NI | KA *
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    • frjohnwhiteford@yahoo.com
      ... Indeed He is risen! ... Buddhism, but an ... Avalokiteshvara. I understand that nuance... but in popular Buddhism, it is a nuance that is lost on rank and
      Message 2 of 3 , May 4, 2001
        David Starr wrote:
        > Dear Fr. John et al.:

        Indeed He is risen!

        > Kuanyin is not strictly-speaking a god in traditional
        Buddhism, but an
        > emanation of the Boddhisattva ("enlightenment being",

        I understand that nuance... but in popular Buddhism, it is a nuance
        that is lost on rank and file Buddhists.

        > None of this has a thing to do with the Theotokos, though the
        imagery of a
        > very kind and powerful woman who offers great help to suffering
        humanity is
        > in common.

        I think the archeological evidence would indicate that there is at
        least a good possibility that the popular conception of Guanyin.
        Which was as a male, and only after the advent of the Nestorian
        mission did female images begin to appear.
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