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Re: Russian Easter Feast

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  • aggreen1
    No need to remind me, Aleksiy. I didn t put together the web site. Al ... remind you and others on this list once again that there is no such thing as Russian
    Message 1 of 30 , Apr 8, 2004
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      No need to remind me, Aleksiy. I didn't put together the web site.

      Al


      --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "oross" <oross@c...> wrote:
      > Dear Al,
      > Thank you for the "website worth to look". However, I have to
      remind you and others on this list once again that there is no such
      thing as "Russian Easter Feast". The correct way to say it is PASCHAL
      Feast, particularly when it is referred to Russia. I do not
      understand why people who consider themselves Orthodox, particularly
      clerics, are stubbornly continue to use Easter, which the whole
      secular World together with Catholics and Protestants are using,
      instead of PASCHA, that Jesus Himself used???
      > The historic excurse into an ancient England that supposedly had
      been Orthodox is absolutely not persuasive for justification of using
      Easter instead of Pascha.
      >
      > I wish you and all Orthodox reading this a Glorious and Happy
      Pascha.
      > Aleksiy
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: aggreen1
      > To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:42 PM
      > Subject: [orthodox-rocor] Russian Easter Feast
      >
      >
      > This web site is worth a look. the recipes seem genuine enough. --
      Al
      >
      >
      > http://tinyurl.com/2lr3s
      >
      > Memory & Desire
      >
      > MENU, Serves 10
      >
      > Pierogies
      > Russian Easter Bread
      > Paskha Cheese
      > Tbilvino Tsinandali '99
      > Herb-Stuffed Leg of Lamb
      > Stuffed Veal Breast
      > Kielbasa
      > Beet Horseradish Sauce
      > White Horseradish Sauce
      > Asparagus with Lemon and Butter
      > Sautéed Mixed Mushrooms
      > Sweet-and-Sour Sauerkraut
      > Watercress Salad with Pickled Quail Eggs
      > Tbilvino Mukuzani '96
      > Prune and Caraway Ice Cream
      > Poppy Seed Shortbreads
      > Krimskoe Noviy Svet Crimean Semisweet Red Sparkling Wine
      >
      > In Russian Orthodox tradition, Easter is a joyous breaking of the
      > Lenten fast. This feast lasts for hours and makes the air
      fragrant
      > with roasted meats, vegetables, and saffron-laced breads.
      >
      > -- Recipes and food styling by Paul Grimes, Gourmet, April 2004
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Moser
      ... Oh good, we all use proper term in Pascha - but learn about our traditions from a Mormon criminal???? Priest David Moser St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox
      Message 2 of 30 , Apr 9, 2004
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        > Check this out:
        >http://www.marthastewart.com/

        Oh good, we all use proper "term" in Pascha - but learn about our traditions
        from a Mormon criminal????

        Priest David Moser
        St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
        Boise, ID
        homilies: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/propoved/
        ask Fr David: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/frd_private/
      • StephenATL/????????
        Never suggested we should learn traditions from her......... Just thought that it was interesting that she had a Greek Paschal Menu. Didn t know she s a
        Message 3 of 30 , Apr 9, 2004
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          Never suggested we should learn traditions from her......... Just
          thought that it was interesting that she had a Greek Paschal Menu.
          Didn't know she's a Mormon!?

          Criminal? I think not. She's just a good business woman, and 'peasant
          socialists' are jealous of her prosperity. That jury was probably
          made up of all socialists democrats. She is very good at what she
          does: teaching others cooking, crafts, gardening, decorating, etc.

          Stephanos


          David Moser wrote:

          >>Check this out:
          >>http://www.marthastewart.com/
          >>
          >>
          >
          >Oh good, we all use proper "term" in Pascha - but learn about our traditions
          >from a Mormon criminal????
          >
          >Priest David Moser
          >St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
          >Boise, ID
          >homilies: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/propoved/
          >ask Fr David: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/frd_private/
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Posts to this list need to be signed with your full (and real) name.
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Fr. John R. Shaw
          ... does ... Lamb. JRS: But even in the latest (1996) revamping of Webster s Unabridged Dictionary, the *only* meaning given for `the word Easter, is the
          Message 4 of 30 , Apr 10, 2004
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            Stephanos wrote:
            >
            > Easter is a term for a pre-Christian, pagan feast in honor of the
            > goddess Eastre. It is a pagan term and is sadly used in the
            > English-speaking world and Germany (Oster or Osterfest). English
            does
            > have the historical use of the adjective, Paschal, as in the Paschal
            Lamb.

            JRS: But even in the latest (1996) revamping of Webster's Unabridged
            Dictionary, the *only* meaning given for `the word Easter, is the
            Christian feast of the Resurrection of Christ.

            Happy Easter to all.

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw
          • Fr. John R. Shaw
            ... JRS: Perhaps some will see ecumenism in any use of traditional English names for traditional Christian observances. Years ago, one over-zealous convert
            Message 5 of 30 , Apr 10, 2004
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              Nicholas Trahan wrote:

              > THANK YOU!!!!!! When will the "ORTHODOX" get it straight that ORTHODOX
              > celebrate Pascha and not Easter?
              >
              > Probably as long as there is ecumenism.

              JRS: Perhaps some will see "ecumenism" in any use of traditional
              English names for traditional Christian observances.

              Years ago, one over-zealous convert told me, I think quite sincerely,
              that one should not pray in English, because "English is too full of
              Latin roots"!

              Of course, "Nativity" and "Pascha" are the very words (or roots) used
              in Latin, even in the current post-Vatican-II Roman Catholic texts!

              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw
            • oross
              Dear Fr. John, Please forgive me but I am amazed by the way you respond to this simple issue to the point of doubting if it is your writing. I have accustomed
              Message 6 of 30 , Apr 11, 2004
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                Dear Fr. John,
                Please forgive me but I am amazed by the way you respond to this simple issue to the point of doubting if it is your writing.
                I have accustomed to see on this list and elsewhere your thoughtful, calm, charitable and reserved responses to even very controversial issues. And here, this response with judgmental statements "a few FANATICS continue to make such claims", with unwarranted assertion "that we should not speak English at all..." reminds more of Subd. Kirill's, John Dunn's style and manners.

                Let me ask you, Fr.John, what is the meaning of the word EASTER? Fr. Ambrose, I believe, brought the very long list of this word's meanings and neither of them has even the slightest touch, glimpse or association with what had occurred more than 2000 years ago in Jerusalem. It is associated with this World, and no wonder Easter's symbol is Bunny.

                Now, let us look at the word PASCHA. First of all, it has its origin in the Old Testament Passover and has very deep and important not only theological but basic, fundamental Orthodox meaning - passage from Slavery to Sin to Freedom of Righteousness, cross-over from Death to Life in Christ. It has been used by Christ Himself, by the Apostles and by His Church from the very beginning. It is connected forever with that unparalleled event in World History, event of Cosmic proportions - Resurrection of Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer. That is why PASCHA is the FEAST of the Feasts.

                Does the word EASTER have this meaning? Absolutely not. Why then to use it? Just because it is English and supposedly was used by some ancient (?) church of England? The word PASCHA is not Russian, it is universal, it is Orthodox Christian, it is Word of Christ. It does not represent danger to any language, even to English. Every human tongue is easily able to pronounce it, to say it, even the English one. Where are our priorities? Language? Country? Or Jesus Christ and His Church? To whom we submit ourselves as Christians, followers of Jesus Christ that, I believe, we all are trying to be? To country of our temporal surgeon in this World? Moreover to the Worldly language of this country?

                Now again, I truly and honestly do not understand why here, in this country, Orthodox clerics, particularly those who belong to the Russian Orthodox Church, i.e follow its tradition of Orthodoxy in services, etc., insist on using EASTER instead of PASCHA?
                It is quite possible that I am not able to question this appropriately, in such words that it is understable and do not provoke the sharp and angry response like yours, Fr. John. In any case, I do not think that the simple questioning of this or any other issue, even if it is done clumsily, warrants to judgmentally call the questioner "fanatic".

                With best wishes for the Glorious Jesus Christ Pascha! � ��������� ������������!
                ������� ��������! Christ is Risen!
                r.B. Aleksiy


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Fr. John R. Shaw
                To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com ; orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 5:06 AM
                Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Russian Easter Feast


                "oross" <oross@...> writes:

                > > I do not understand why people who consider themselves Orthodox,
                > > particularly clerics, are stubbornly continue to use Easter, which
                > > the whole secular World together with Catholics and Protestants are
                > > using, instead of PASCHA, that Jesus Himself used??? The historic
                > > excurse into an ancient England that supposedly had been Orthodox is
                > > absolutely not persuasive for justification of using Easter instead
                > > of Pascha.

                JRS: And I am just as amazed by the stubborn way a few fanatics
                continue to make such claims.

                If we are not to use "Easter", which, despite such claims, is used only
                to refer to the Christian feast of Christ's Resurrection (the one
                exception I know is where the KJV uses it to refer to the Jewish
                Passover, in Acts 12:4) -- then how can we call today "Friday", when
                its name is truly of pagan origin and derives from that of the Norse
                deity Fria, who was supposed to be the wife of Odin?

                She was seen as a Nordic equivalent of Venus, thus the origin
                of "Friday".

                And while some zealots may avoid speaking of "Good Friday" in favor
                of "Great and Holy Friday" -- the pagan, or "Friday" element, seems not
                to bother them.

                Such arguments logically would lead us to assume that we should not
                speak English at all...

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • aaronandbrighid@aol.com
                Dear Stephanos, Christos anesti! I think Fr Ambrose has more than adequately demonstrated that Easter is not a pagan term at all, and that that idea is a
                Message 7 of 30 , Apr 12, 2004
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                  Dear Stephanos,
                  Christos anesti! I think Fr Ambrose has more than adequately demonstrated that 'Easter' is not a pagan term at all, and that that idea is a myth promulgated by 19th century folklorists. If you are not convinced by his arguments, please state why in a rational way, instead of simply repeating that the word is pagan without providing any evidence to support yourself.
                  That the word was used for 500 years or so by English Orthodox, and particularly by English Orthodox Saints, negates any objections we sinners might have to it today based on misinformation.

                  forgive me,
                  aaron
                • aggreen1
                  ... traditions ... ***I followed your link but could not find a reference to Martha s religion. Al
                  Message 8 of 30 , Apr 12, 2004
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                    --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "David Moser" <moserd@s...>
                    wrote:
                    > > Check this out:
                    > >http://www.marthastewart.com/
                    >
                    > Oh good, we all use proper "term" in Pascha - but learn about our
                    traditions
                    > from a Mormon criminal????
                    >
                    > Priest David Moser


                    ***I followed your link but could not find a reference to Martha's
                    religion.

                    Al
                  • aggreen1
                    From the American Heritage Electronic dictionary: Eas·ter (¶ st…r) n. 1. A Christian feast commemorating the Resurrection of Jesus. 2. The day on which
                    Message 9 of 30 , Apr 12, 2004
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                      From the American Heritage Electronic dictionary:

                      Eas·ter (¶"st…r) n. 1. A Christian feast commemorating the
                      Resurrection of Jesus. 2. The day on which this feast is observed,
                      the first Sunday following the full moon that occurs on or next after
                      March 21. 3. Eastertide. [Middle English ester, from Old English
                      ¶astre. See aus- below.]
                      ————————————————————
                      aus-. Important derivatives are: east, Easter, aurora.
                      aus-. To shine. 1.a. EAST, from Old English ¶ast, east (< "the
                      direction of the sunrise"); b. OSTMARK, from Old High German ½stan,
                      east. Both a and b from Germanic *aust-. 2.a. EASTERN, from Old
                      English ¶asterne, eastern; b. OSTROGOTH, from Late Latin ostro-,
                      eastern. Both a and b from Germanic *austra-. 3. EASTER, from Old
                      English ¶astre, Easter, from Germanic *austr½n-, a dawn-goddess whose
                      holiday was celebrated at the vernal equinox. 4. Possibly in AUSTRO-
                      1, from Latin auster, the south wind, formally identical to the
                      Germanic forms in 2 and 3, but the semantics are unclear. 5. Probably
                      suffixed form *aus½s-, dawn, also Indo-European goddess of the dawn.
                      a. AURORA, from Latin aur½ra, dawn; b. EO-, EOS; EOSIN, from Greek
                      ¶½s, dawn. [Pokorny aøes- 86.]



                      --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                      <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                      > Stephanos wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Easter is a term for a pre-Christian, pagan feast in honor of the
                      > > goddess Eastre. It is a pagan term and is sadly used in the
                      > > English-speaking world and Germany (Oster or Osterfest). English
                      > does
                      > > have the historical use of the adjective, Paschal, as in the
                      Paschal
                      > Lamb.
                      >
                      > JRS: But even in the latest (1996) revamping of Webster's
                      Unabridged
                      > Dictionary, the *only* meaning given for `the word Easter, is the
                      > Christian feast of the Resurrection of Christ.
                      >
                      > Happy Easter to all.
                      >
                      > In Christ
                      > Fr. John R. Shaw
                    • emrys@globe.net.nz
                      ... From: oross ... country, Orthodox clerics, particularly those who belong to the Russian Orthodox Church, i.e follow its tradition of
                      Message 10 of 30 , Apr 12, 2004
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                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "oross" <oross@...>

                        > Now again, I truly and honestly do not understand why here, in this
                        country, Orthodox clerics, particularly those who belong to the Russian
                        Orthodox Church, i.e follow its tradition of Orthodoxy in services, etc.,
                        insist on using EASTER instead of PASCHA?<

                        Dear Aleksiy,

                        Ta Criost eirithe!

                        I am sure that there is no Orthodox priest anywhere who insists on using the
                        word Easter instead of Pascha. I myself would use Pascha 90% of the time.
                        But ill-informed attacks on the use of the word Easter do not serve the
                        truth which we serve and are, in the case of English converts, a slight on
                        their Orthodox ancestors who used the word for hundreds and hundreds of
                        years when England was Orthodox.

                        Caisc Shona Dhaoibh!

                        Fr Ambrose
                        __________________________________


                        > It is quite possible that I am not able to question this appropriately, in
                        such words that it is understable and do not provoke the sharp and angry
                        response like yours, Fr. John. In any case, I do not think that the simple
                        questioning of this or any other issue, even if it is done clumsily,
                        warrants to judgmentally call the questioner "fanatic".

                        With best wishes for the Glorious Jesus Christ Pascha! С Христовым
                        Воскресением!
                        Христос Воскресе! Christ is Risen!
                        r.B. Aleksiy


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Fr. John R. Shaw
                        To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com ; orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 5:06 AM
                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Russian Easter Feast


                        "oross" <oross@...> writes:

                        > > I do not understand why people who consider themselves Orthodox,
                        > > particularly clerics, are stubbornly continue to use Easter, which
                        > > the whole secular World together with Catholics and Protestants are
                        > > using, instead of PASCHA, that Jesus Himself used??? The historic
                        > > excurse into an ancient England that supposedly had been Orthodox is
                        > > absolutely not persuasive for justification of using Easter instead
                        > > of Pascha.

                        JRS: And I am just as amazed by the stubborn way a few fanatics
                        continue to make such claims.

                        If we are not to use "Easter", which, despite such claims, is used only
                        to refer to the Christian feast of Christ's Resurrection (the one
                        exception I know is where the KJV uses it to refer to the Jewish
                        Passover, in Acts 12:4) -- then how can we call today "Friday", when
                        its name is truly of pagan origin and derives from that of the Norse
                        deity Fria, who was supposed to be the wife of Odin?

                        She was seen as a Nordic equivalent of Venus, thus the origin
                        of "Friday".

                        And while some zealots may avoid speaking of "Good Friday" in favor
                        of "Great and Holy Friday" -- the pagan, or "Friday" element, seems not
                        to bother them.

                        Such arguments logically would lead us to assume that we should not
                        speak English at all...

                        In Christ
                        Fr. John R. Shaw



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                      • Fr. John R. Shaw
                        JRS: XPICTOC BOCKPECE! I received a private e-mail from the writer of this message, in which he said he had posted it to the list *in error* -- and had meant
                        Message 11 of 30 , Apr 12, 2004
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                          JRS: XPICTOC BOCKPECE!

                          I received a private e-mail from the writer of this message, in which
                          he said he had posted it to the list *in error* -- and had meant to
                          send it only to me.

                          I replied to some of his points privately, but will not do so on the
                          list, unless someone wishes me to do so.

                          In Christ
                          Fr. John R. Shaw

                          > Dear Fr. John,
                          > Please forgive me but I am amazed by the way you respond to this
                          simple issue to the point of doubting if it is your writing.
                        • emrys@globe.net.nz
                          Christ is Risen! Ta Criost Eirithe! Father John, If your letter address the use of the word Easter by the Orthodox, I would be interested. Fr Ambrose ...
                          Message 12 of 30 , Apr 12, 2004
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                            Christ is Risen!
                            Ta Criost Eirithe!

                            Father John,

                            If your letter address the use of the word Easter by the Orthodox, I would be interested.

                            Fr Ambrose
                            ______________________________________________
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...>


                            > JRS: XPICTOC BOCKPECE!
                            >
                            > I received a private e-mail from the writer of this message, in which
                            > he said he had posted it to the list *in error* -- and had meant to
                            > send it only to me.
                            >
                            > I replied to some of his points privately, but will not do so on the
                            > list, unless someone wishes me to do so.
                            >
                            > In Christ
                            > Fr. John R. Shaw
                            >
                            > > Dear Fr. John,
                            > > Please forgive me but I am amazed by the way you respond to this
                            > simple issue to the point of doubting if it is your writing.

















                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Fr. John R. Shaw
                            ... would be interested. JRS: My response was this: that I have no objection at all to the word Pascha , but my objection is to the attempt to demonize
                            Message 13 of 30 , Apr 13, 2004
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                              Fr Ambrose wrote:

                              > Christ is Risen!
                              > Ta Criost Eirithe!
                              >
                              > Father John,
                              >
                              > If your letter address the use of the word Easter by the Orthodox, I
                              would be interested.

                              JRS: My response was this: that I have no objection at all to the
                              word "Pascha", but my objection is to the attempt to demonize "Easter".

                              And that demonization-attempt began as part of a larger "program", one
                              that was put forth decades ago by HTM and "The Orthodox Christian
                              Witness", and has sadly borne fruit, in the form of confusion...

                              Is it more Orthodox to speak of "Nativity cards" instead of "Christmas
                              cards" -- or "Nativity pudding" instead of "Christmas pudding"?

                              Does the Greek who says "Kala Christougenna" or "Kalo Pascha" mean
                              something different, and far more Orthodox, than the English-speaker
                              who says "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Easter"?

                              And it makes little sense to berate the West and the English-speaking
                              world for having fallen away from Orthodoxy, if we also suggest that
                              they were never really Orthodox to begin with!

                              In Christ
                              Fr. John R. Shaw
                            • Fr. Alexis Duncan
                              I agree with Fr. John. I also do not write icons, I paint them. I also dislike the seeming rule that every name or term have an os tacked on the end. What is
                              Message 14 of 30 , Apr 13, 2004
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                                I agree with Fr. John. I also do not write icons, I paint them. I
                                also dislike the seeming rule that every name or term have an
                                "os" tacked on the end. What is wrong, if we are translating into
                                English, to use terms like "The Birthgiver of God"? However, I am
                                not sure I agree that HTM was the cause of it all. It does seem,
                                Fr. John, that HTM was your personal boogeyman!

                                Happy Easter Fr. John!


                                -----Original Message-----


                                JRS: My response was this: that I have no objection at all to
                                the
                                word "Pascha", but my objection is to the attempt to demonize
                                "Easter".

                                And that demonization-attempt began as part of a larger
                                "program", one
                                that was put forth decades ago by HTM and "The Orthodox
                                Christian
                                Witness", and has sadly borne fruit, in the form of
                                confusion...

                                Is it more Orthodox to speak of "Nativity cards" instead of
                                "Christmas
                                cards" -- or "Nativity pudding" instead of "Christmas pudding"?

                                Does the Greek who says "Kala Christougenna" or "Kalo Pascha"
                                mean
                                something different, and far more Orthodox, than the
                                English-speaker
                                who says "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Easter"?



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Patrick Cumbie
                                ... Although I try to stay our of these discussions and although I almost always agree with Fr John (and with Fr Alexis in his rare comments), I must admit
                                Message 15 of 30 , Apr 13, 2004
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                                  At 07:56 AM 4/13/04, you wrote:
                                  >What is wrong, if we are translating into English, to use terms like "The
                                  >Birthgiver of God"?

                                  Although I try to stay our of these discussions and although I almost
                                  always agree with Fr John (and with Fr Alexis in his rare comments), I must
                                  admit that I find the phrase 'Birthgiver of God' to be, somehow, not in
                                  keeping with English idiom. The English Church in the years before the
                                  schism used the term 'Theotocos' and I have to admit that I prefer it.

                                  Patrick Cumbie


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • emrys@globe.net.nz
                                  ... From: Patrick Cumbie ... Dear Patrick, In the entire history of the pre-schism English Church schism there is *one* surviving
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Apr 13, 2004
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                                    :: Christ is Risen! ::
                                    :: Ta Criost Eirithe! ::


                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Patrick Cumbie" <patrcmb@...>
                                    > keeping with English idiom. The English Church in the years before the
                                    > schism used the term 'Theotocos' and I have to admit that I prefer it.

                                    Dear Patrick,

                                    In the entire history of the pre-schism English Church schism there is *one*
                                    surviving instance of the use of the word "Theotokos." I'll hunt it dowen
                                    later in the day and post it.

                                    If such a word had been in use it England it would have undergone an
                                    anglicisation and it would have become "Theotoke" (the'-a-toke) and indeed
                                    this is the direction in which it should be heading these days if people
                                    really wish to integrate it into contemporary English church usage rather
                                    than for it to remain a foreign importation over which every
                                    English-speaking man and woman except the most educated has to pause for a
                                    second and then affect a non-English pronunciation every time it is used.

                                    Fr Ambrose
                                    ____________________________
                                  • Elias Gorsky
                                    Using Birthgiver of God for Theotokos seems quite artificial. I much more prefer Mother of God - everyone understands what is meant. Just because in
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Apr 13, 2004
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                                      Using "Birthgiver of God" for Theotokos seems quite artificial. I much more
                                      prefer "Mother of God" - everyone understands what is meant. Just because in
                                      Slavonic and Greek there are 2 words meaning the same thing, it is not
                                      necessary to invent a new word in English that means the same. What is
                                      really the essence of the difference between "Mother of God" or "Birthgiver
                                      if God"? What is a "mother" if not a "birth giver"? In Slavonic or Russian,
                                      the two words, "Bogroditsa" and "Bozhiya Mater" are used totally
                                      interchangeably, with no conotation present in one not present in the other.

                                      Christ is Risen
                                      p. Ilya Gorsky


                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: emrys@...
                                      To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: 4/13/04 4:08 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Russian Easter Feast

                                      :: Christ is Risen! ::
                                      :: Ta Criost Eirithe! ::


                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Patrick Cumbie" <patrcmb@...>
                                      > keeping with English idiom. The English Church in the years before the
                                      > schism used the term 'Theotocos' and I have to admit that I prefer it.

                                      Dear Patrick,

                                      In the entire history of the pre-schism English Church schism there is
                                      *one*
                                      surviving instance of the use of the word "Theotokos." I'll hunt it
                                      dowen
                                      later in the day and post it.

                                      If such a word had been in use it England it would have undergone an
                                      anglicisation and it would have become "Theotoke" (the'-a-toke) and
                                      indeed
                                      this is the direction in which it should be heading these days if people
                                      really wish to integrate it into contemporary English church usage
                                      rather
                                      than for it to remain a foreign importation over which every
                                      English-speaking man and woman except the most educated has to pause for
                                      a
                                      second and then affect a non-English pronunciation every time it is
                                      used.

                                      Fr Ambrose
                                      ____________________________






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                                    • emrys@globe.net.nz
                                      ... From: Elias Gorsky ... AMEN to the above! Although some will argue that we are about to tip over into heresy if we use Mother
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Apr 13, 2004
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                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Elias Gorsky" <elias.gorsky@...>



                                        > Using "Birthgiver of God" for Theotokos seems quite artificial. I much more
                                        > prefer "Mother of God" - everyone understands what is meant. Just because in
                                        > Slavonic and Greek there are 2 words meaning the same thing, it is not
                                        > necessary to invent a new word in English that means the same. What is
                                        > really the essence of the difference between "Mother of God" or "Birthgiver
                                        > if God"? What is a "mother" if not a "birth giver"? In Slavonic or Russian,
                                        > the two words, "Bogroditsa" and "Bozhiya Mater" are used totally
                                        > interchangeably, with no conotation present in one not present in the other.
                                        >
                                        > Christ is Risen
                                        > p. Ilya Gorsky


                                        AMEN to the above!

                                        Although some will argue that we are about to tip over into heresy if we use "Mother of God" :-)

                                        I still use the one and only, true and unreformed Jordanville Prayerbook in English (mine's a 1960 edition) which uses "Mother of God" throughout.

                                        For the authentic Jordanville Prayerbook see
                                        http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/prayerbook/main.htm

                                        H'monk Ambrose
                                        _______________________________
                                        >
                                        >

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                                      • Patrick Cumbie
                                        ... Go fior, ta se Eirithe! [Please correct my Irish.} Patrick Cumbie They have said, Come, and let us root them out, that they be no more a people. Ps 82:4
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Apr 14, 2004
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                                          At 03:08 PM 4/13/04, you wrote:
                                          >Christ is Risen! ::
                                          > :: Ta Criost Eirithe! ::

                                          Go fior, ta se Eirithe!

                                          [Please correct my Irish.}

                                          Patrick Cumbie
                                          They have said, Come, and let us root them out, that they be no more a
                                          people. Ps 82:4


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