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Re: Tone Tutor

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  • hobbitofny
    To all who answered my original question, I thank you. As for the way it lead to the exchanges on the topic that followed, I ask your forgiveness. Dale
    Message 1 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
      To all who answered my original question, I thank you. As for the way it lead to the exchanges on the topic that followed, I ask your forgiveness.

      Dale Dickerson

      --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "hobbitofny" <hobbitofny@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > What is the difference between the tones used for English and those for Church Slavonic?
      >
      > Dale Dickerson
      >
      >
      > --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Tone Tutor
      > > For those who are unable to go to the Summer Liturgical School in
      > > Jordanville, the Tone Tutor is an excellent set of CDs that will teach
      > > you the 8 tones according to the common usage of the Russian Church, and
      > > uses the methods taught at Jordanville. There are 10 CDs: one for each
      > > of the 8 tones. One for "mid term" and "final" tests, and one for
      > > refreshing your memory. This tone teaches each variation of the 8 tones:
      > > the troparion, sticheron, sticheron refrains, prokimenon, and irmos
      > > melodies. The program is completely audio based... you need only pop in
      > > the first CD, and follow the instructions from there.
      > >
      > > This fills an important need. In the 90's there was a cassette tape
      > > available, but it was not nearly as user friendly, and the translation
      > > used for the text was not the most commonly used ones in ROCOR.
      > >
      > > Choir members who have not yet memorized the tones will greatly benefit
      > > from this, and especially those who are thrust into the position of
      > > manning the cliros, and have no one else to prompt them when a
      > > particular tone is called for, and they have no one to get them started.
      > > Many years ago, I was in that situation, and I used some cassette tapes
      > > that were available, and worked on the tone of the week each week,
      > > until I had them all down. But this is a much more thorough program. I
      > > highly recommend it.
      > >
      > > It can be purchased by clicking here.
      > >  
      > > http://www.ocrb.org/products/tonetutor101
      > >
      > >
      > > Presbyter John Whiteford
      > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
      > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
      > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
      > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
      > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
      > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford
      > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
      > >
      >
    • Stephen/Στέφανος
      Because, in correct English, lord and father, should NEVER be capitalized when referring to the Patriarch…. Unless it were the first word of a sentence….
      Message 2 of 27 , Feb 19, 2013
        Because, in correct English, "lord and father, should NEVER be capitalized when referring to the Patriarch…. Unless it were the first word of a sentence…. 

        Just like Greek…. Κύριος for our Lord Christ…. and κύριος when referring to a human.  

        Stephanos Upton 

        Sent from my iPhone, Stephen/Στέφανος 

        On Feb 18, 2013, at 11:49, "Elias G. Gorsky" <egorsky@...> wrote:

         

        Dear Father John,

         

        In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.

         

        Our Lord Jesus Christ

         

        Vs

         

        Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill

         

        Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.

         

        How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?

         

        With love (sincerely),

        p. Ilya Gorsky

         


        From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
        Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
        To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

         

         

        I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.

         

        Presbyter John Whiteford
        St. Jonah Orthodox Church
        Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
        ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
        Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
        Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
        Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

        "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

         

         


        From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
        To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
        Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
        Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

         

         

         

        Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.

         

        Chad W. Paul McBride

        What we do in life, Echoes in eternity

        Chad W. Paul McBride

        What we do in life, Echoes in eternity

         

         

        -------Original Message-------

         

        From: Meg Lark

        Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41

        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

         

         

        On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:

         

        There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.

         

        Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.

         

        Meg Lark 

         

         

         

         

         

      • Meg Lark
        ... That s actually my fault, Dale, and I ask forgiveness as well. Still, I have greatly enjoyed the exchanges on the subject of languages and their
        Message 3 of 27 , Feb 19, 2013
          On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 9:40 PM, hobbitofny <hobbitofny@...> wrote:
           


          To all who answered my original question, I thank you. As for the way it lead to the exchanges on the topic that followed, I ask your forgiveness.

          Dale Dickerson


          That's actually my fault, Dale, and I ask forgiveness as well.  Still, I have greatly enjoyed the exchanges on the subject of languages and their relationship to music, and have learned a few things along the way, so it hasn't been a total loss.

          For Mark Karahalis:  Not everyone is linguistically inclined, but every Christian should be able to read and understand both the Bible and the Divine Liturgy that contains so much of it.  This is why we have Biblical scholars to study these things, and the meaning of the words.  The Orthodox Study Bible may not be perfect, but it is a Bible translated by Orthodox Christians, and all the priests I know use only it or the King James Bible.

          Stephanos - we think alike on the subject of "You-Who" English, and I am sure I would feel the same about liturgical vs. modern Greek, or Church Slavonic vs. modern Russian (though I must say, having taken Russian courses in college, that I didn't have *too* much of a problem with vocabulary.  A Russian priest told me that the problem for most Russians is the grammar - Church Slavonic follows Greek grammar, he said, and that's what confuses Russians).

          In Christ, again asking everyone's forgiveness, though with thanks for the exchange,

          Meg Lark
        • Chad W. Paul McBride
          If you want Greek go to a Greek church. Chad W. Paul McBride c_mcbride7@yahoo.com What we do in life, Echoes in eternity ... From: Mark Karahalis Date:
          Message 4 of 27 , Feb 20, 2013
            If you want Greek go to a Greek church.  
             
             
            Chad W. Paul McBride
            What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
            -------Original Message-------
             
            Date: 2/18/2013 19:46:19
            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
             
             

            That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than  70 different translations. The reasons are often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.

            On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
             

            The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

            But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

            There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

            Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

            Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

            Presbyter John Whiteford
            St. Jonah Orthodox Church
            Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
            ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
            Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
            Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
            Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

            "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





            From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
            To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
            Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



            Dear Father John,
             
            In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
             
            Our Lord Jesus Christ
             
            Vs
             
            Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
             
            Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
             
            How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
             
            With love (sincerely),
            p. Ilya Gorsky
             

            From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
            Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
            To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
             
             
            I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
             
            Presbyter John Whiteford
            St. Jonah Orthodox Church
            Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
            ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
            Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
            Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
            Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

            "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

             

             

            From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
            To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
            Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
            Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
             
             
             
            Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
             
            Chad W. Paul McBride
            What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
            Chad W. Paul McBride
            What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
             
             
            -------Original Message-------
             
            From: Meg Lark
            Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
             
             
            On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
             
            There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
             
            Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
             
            Meg Lark 
             
             
             
             
             




             
          • Chad W. Paul McBride
            I completely agree. Chad W. Paul McBride c_mcbride7@yahoo.com What we do in life, Echoes in eternity ... From: Meg Lark Date: 2/18/2013 10:34:55 To:
            Message 5 of 27 , Feb 20, 2013
              I completely agree.
               
               
              Chad W. Paul McBride
              What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
              -------Original Message-------
               
              From: Meg Lark
              Date: 2/18/2013 10:34:55
              Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
               
               

              On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:46 AM, Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...> wrote:

               

               
              Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.


              It can be, but if you put just a little effort into English, it can be equally pretty (and OK, again sticking my neck out, my preference is for *liturgical* English, which is also more grammatically correct when addressing the Triune God).

              The main thing about any of our liturgical prayers is that they remain *prayers,* and not just an expression of our ethnic pride (and for the record, all appearances to the contrary, I do claim Russian ethnicity - my father was of Russian descent).  The very worst thing we could do would be to get sidetracked into the kind of thing that goes on in the West - dumbing down our Liturgies for the sake of Keeping the Youth.  Due to the geographical peculiarities of my locale, I've had a lot of exposure to various jurisdictions, and I can tell you that the most successful parishes, in *any* jurisdiction, are the most traditional parishes, with a strong emphasis on prayer.

              So yes, we need Liturgies to be in a language comprehensible to the parish, and if we have parishioners who aren't quite so comfortable with English, we should take pains to help them get comfortable with it - after all, they live here now.  But we should never stoop so low as to think we need to be Contemporary.  /shudder/

              In Christ,
              Meg

               
            • Mark Karahalis
              the point is aboutdeveloping wisdom. Truth + Knowledge = Wisdom On Feb 20, 2013 7:08 AM, Chad W. Paul McBride ... the point is
              Message 6 of 27 , Feb 20, 2013

                the point is aboutdeveloping wisdom.

                Truth + Knowledge = Wisdom

                On Feb 20, 2013 7:08 AM, "Chad W. Paul McBride" <c_mcbride7@...> wrote:
                 

                If you want Greek go to a Greek church.  
                 
                 
                Chad W. Paul McBride
                What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                -------Original Message-------
                 
                Date: 2/18/2013 19:46:19
                Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                 
                 

                That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than  70 different translations. The reasons are often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.

                On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                 

                The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

                There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

                Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

                Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                Presbyter John Whiteford
                St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

                "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                Dear Father John,
                 
                In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
                 
                Our Lord Jesus Christ
                 
                Vs
                 
                Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                 
                Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                 
                How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
                 
                With love (sincerely),
                p. Ilya Gorsky
                 

                From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                 
                 
                I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
                 
                Presbyter John Whiteford
                St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                 

                 

                From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                 
                 
                 
                Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                 
                Chad W. Paul McBride
                What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                Chad W. Paul McBride
                What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                 
                 
                -------Original Message-------
                 
                From: Meg Lark
                Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                 
                 
                On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
                 
                There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                 
                Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
                 
                Meg Lark 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 




                 
              • John Billo
                No, the point is about acquiring the Holy Spirit. That s pretty hard to do when clergy are speaking in foreign tongues. Reference the examples of Sy Cyril and
                Message 7 of 27 , Feb 20, 2013
                  No, the point is about acquiring the Holy Spirit. 
                   
                  That's pretty hard to do when clergy are speaking in foreign tongues.  Reference the examples of Sy Cyril and Methodius, enlighteners of the Slavs.  They taught in the native language.  The holy saints, Tikhon, Innocent, and Jacob of Alaska, all taught in the native language.  So too, do our missionary people of today in Albania, Africa, and Asia seek to learn the native language so they can teach the faith in the native tongue.
                   
                  Not everyone has the time, energy, and aptitude in today's environment to learn a foreign language after working 40-50 hours a week and tending to their families' needs.
                   
                  It is easier to correct the poor translations then ask the thousands of Orthodox Christians in  America to learn the greek text.
                   
                  In ICXC,
                  John Billo

                  On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 6:23 AM, Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...> wrote:
                   

                  the point is aboutdeveloping wisdom.

                  Truth + Knowledge = Wisdom

                  On Feb 20, 2013 7:08 AM, "Chad W. Paul McBride" <c_mcbride7@...> wrote:
                   

                  If you want Greek go to a Greek church.  
                   
                   
                  Chad W. Paul McBride
                  What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                  -------Original Message-------
                   
                  Date: 2/18/2013 19:46:19
                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                   
                   

                  That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than  70 different translations. The reasons are often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.

                  On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                   

                  The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                  But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

                  There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

                  Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

                  Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                  Presbyter John Whiteford
                  St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                  Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                  ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                  Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                  Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                  Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

                  "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                  From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                  To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                  Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                  Dear Father John,
                   
                  In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
                   
                  Our Lord Jesus Christ
                   
                  Vs
                   
                  Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                   
                  Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                   
                  How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
                   
                  With love (sincerely),
                  p. Ilya Gorsky
                   

                  From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                  Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                  To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                   
                   
                  I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
                   
                  Presbyter John Whiteford
                  St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                  Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                  ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                  Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                  Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                  Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                  "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                   

                   

                  From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                  To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                  Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                  Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                   
                   
                   
                  Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                   
                  Chad W. Paul McBride
                  What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                  Chad W. Paul McBride
                  What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                   
                   
                  -------Original Message-------
                   
                  From: Meg Lark
                  Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                   
                   
                  On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
                   
                  There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                   
                  Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
                   
                  Meg Lark 
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   




                   


                • Mark Karahalis
                  Trust has always been an issue. To paraphrase king james. -- beware of the yeast of the sadjuces and the pharoeeses. If as many people learn hellenist greek it
                  Message 8 of 27 , Feb 20, 2013

                    Trust has always been an issue. To paraphrase king james. -- beware of the yeast of the sadjuces and the pharoeeses.
                    If as many people learn hellenist greek it keeps our theologians honest.
                    During the time of St. Gregory the Theologian every educated person (and most were!) were overjoyed at his interpretation. Why? Because of this equation ---- Knowledge + Truth = Wisdom. This equation is the basis for all philosophy.

                    By God's Grace. Nun Evlogimeno. Славо Бого!

                    Mark Karahalis

                    On Feb 20, 2013 9:38 AM, "John Billo" <johnbillo@...> wrote:
                     

                    No, the point is about acquiring the Holy Spirit. 
                     
                    That's pretty hard to do when clergy are speaking in foreign tongues.  Reference the examples of Sy Cyril and Methodius, enlighteners of the Slavs.  They taught in the native language.  The holy saints, Tikhon, Innocent, and Jacob of Alaska, all taught in the native language.  So too, do our missionary people of today in Albania, Africa, and Asia seek to learn the native language so they can teach the faith in the native tongue.
                     
                    Not everyone has the time, energy, and aptitude in today's environment to learn a foreign language after working 40-50 hours a week and tending to their families' needs.
                     
                    It is easier to correct the poor translations then ask the thousands of Orthodox Christians in  America to learn the greek text.
                     
                    In ICXC,
                    John Billo

                    On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 6:23 AM, Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...> wrote:
                     

                    the point is aboutdeveloping wisdom.

                    Truth + Knowledge = Wisdom

                    On Feb 20, 2013 7:08 AM, "Chad W. Paul McBride" <c_mcbride7@...> wrote:
                     

                    If you want Greek go to a Greek church.  
                     
                     
                    Chad W. Paul McBride
                    What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                    -------Original Message-------
                     
                    Date: 2/18/2013 19:46:19
                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                     
                     

                    That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than  70 different translations. The reasons are often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.

                    On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                     

                    The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                    But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

                    There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

                    Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

                    Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                    Presbyter John Whiteford
                    St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                    Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                    ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                    Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                    Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                    Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

                    "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                    From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                    To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                    Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                    Dear Father John,
                     
                    In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
                     
                    Our Lord Jesus Christ
                     
                    Vs
                     
                    Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                     
                    Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                     
                    How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
                     
                    With love (sincerely),
                    p. Ilya Gorsky
                     

                    From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                    Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                    To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                     
                     
                    I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
                     
                    Presbyter John Whiteford
                    St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                    Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                    ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                    Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                    Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                    Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                    "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                     

                     

                    From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                    To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                    Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                    Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                     
                     
                     
                    Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                     
                    Chad W. Paul McBride
                    What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                    Chad W. Paul McBride
                    What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                     
                     
                    -------Original Message-------
                     
                    From: Meg Lark
                    Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                     
                     
                    On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
                     
                    There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                     
                    Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
                     
                    Meg Lark 
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     




                     


                  • bismarc
                    ... ***********Juohn I see your point. Whereas in the ancient Church we westerners & African peoples had services in our languages. Its Christ imperative to
                    Message 9 of 27 , Feb 20, 2013
                      --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, John Billo <johnbillo@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > No, the point is about acquiring the Holy Spirit.
                      >
                      > That's pretty hard to do when clergy are speaking in foreign tongues.
                      > Reference the examples of Sy Cyril and Methodius, enlighteners of the
                      > Slavs. They taught in the native language. The holy saints, Tikhon,
                      > Innocent, and Jacob of Alaska, all taught in the native language. So too,
                      > do our missionary people of today in Albania, Africa, and Asia seek to
                      > learn the native language so they can teach the faith in the native tongue.
                      >
                      > Not everyone has the time, energy, and aptitude in today's environment to
                      > learn a foreign language after working 40-50 hours a week and tending to
                      > their families' needs.
                      >
                      > It is easier to correct the poor translations then ask the thousands of
                      > Orthodox Christians in America to learn the greek text.
                      >
                      > In ICXC,
                      > John Billo
                      ***********Juohn I see your point. Whereas in the ancient Church we westerners & African peoples had services in our languages. Its Christ imperative to the Apostles & other early Christians to go to all nations to spread the Word. In the Book of Acts we see God handing a miracle to the Apostles to teach & spread in foreign tongues that we lack.*
                      *That said its good we now have an abundance of literature, books & services in English & other languages. In 1968 when my Spiritual Father he lacked a lot. Yes out of Platina came the "Orthodox Word" & then other English books/services.*
                      *However I can live w/Russian, Greek, Serbian etc language services. Yes my knowledge of langauges is poor to Bishop Jerome's. Sometimes I still look to see when its time to do the sign of the Cross & other acts of worship. Unlike modern day Pentecostalist new age talking of tongues I can learn the languages we have. Plus its good for me to have an awareness of where I'm at. If I am in a non Englsih speaking parish I can adjust. Point is that I came to speak to God. I am sure while others are using say Greek, Russian etc God can hear me in English as well.*
                      *When I saw this post I feared yet another Greek V Russian language & culture in our Holy Orthodox Church. Its been better than that. Frankly I am not Russian nor Greek. A Greek Bishop once told me in the late 60s when converts were a coming at 1st they tried to be little Greeks, Russians etc. He said they even dressed as medevial Greeks or others. He said it was fine to learn others cultures but be what we are. He liked Wisconsin as we make really good cheese he said but he is no cheese maker.*
                      *I need to get to services. To worship God. To get a break from the daily mundane stuff of life. Sure its nice to get together w/others but its best to get there.
                      In Christ
                      Xenos Mann
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