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RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

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  • Elias G. Gorsky
    Dear Father John, In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod ]
    Message 1 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
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      Dear Father John,

       

      In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.

       

      Our Lord Jesus Christ

       

      Vs

       

      Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill

       

      Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.

       

      How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?

       

      With love (sincerely),

      p. Ilya Gorsky

       


      From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
      Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
      To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

       

       

      I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.

       

      Presbyter John Whiteford
      St. Jonah Orthodox Church
      Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
      ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
      Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
      Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
      Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

      "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

       

       


      From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
      To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
      Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
      Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

       

       

       

      Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.

       

      Chad W. Paul McBride

      What we do in life, Echoes in eternity

      Chad W. Paul McBride

      What we do in life, Echoes in eternity

       

       

      -------Original Message-------

       

      From: Meg Lark

      Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41

      Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

       

       

      On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:

       

      There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.

       

      Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.

       

      Meg Lark 

       

       

       

       

       

    • Fr. John Whiteford
      The Greek word for a human lord , and God the Lord is the same. But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English
      Message 2 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
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        The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

        But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

        There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

        Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

        Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

        Presbyter John Whiteford
        St. Jonah Orthodox Church
        Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
        ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
        Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
        Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
        Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

        "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





        From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
        To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
        Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



        Dear Father John,
         
        In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
         
        Our Lord Jesus Christ
         
        Vs
         
        Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
         
        Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
         
        How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
         
        With love (sincerely),
        p. Ilya Gorsky
         

        From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
        Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
        To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
         
         
        I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
         
        Presbyter John Whiteford
        St. Jonah Orthodox Church
        Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
        ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
        Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
        Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
        Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

        "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

         

         

        From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
        To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
        Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
        Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
         
         
         
        Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
         
        Chad W. Paul McBride
        What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
        Chad W. Paul McBride
        What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
         
         
        -------Original Message-------
         
        From: Meg Lark
        Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
         
         
        On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
         
        There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
         
        Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
         
        Meg Lark 
         
         
         
         
         




      • Mark Karahalis
        That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than 70 different translations. The reasons are often
        Message 3 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
        • 0 Attachment

          That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than  70 different translations. The reasons are often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.

          On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
           

          The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

          But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

          There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

          Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

          Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

          Presbyter John Whiteford
          St. Jonah Orthodox Church
          Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
          ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
          Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
          Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
          Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

          "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





          From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
          To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
          Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



          Dear Father John,
           
          In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
           
          Our Lord Jesus Christ
           
          Vs
           
          Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
           
          Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
           
          How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
           
          With love (sincerely),
          p. Ilya Gorsky
           

          From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
          Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
          To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
           
           
          I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
           
          Presbyter John Whiteford
          St. Jonah Orthodox Church
          Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
          ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
          Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
          Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
          Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

          "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

           

           

          From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
          To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
          Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
          Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
           
           
           
          Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
           
          Chad W. Paul McBride
          What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
          Chad W. Paul McBride
          What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
           
           
          -------Original Message-------
           
          From: Meg Lark
          Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
          Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
           
           
          On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
           
          There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
           
          Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
           
          Meg Lark 
           
           
           
           
           




        • Fr. John Whiteford
          Yes, it is too much to ask. The Apostles didn t ask the Greeks to learn Hebrew.   Presbyter John Whiteford St. Jonah Orthodox Church Parish Home Page:
          Message 4 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Yes, it is too much to ask. The Apostles didn't ask the Greeks to learn Hebrew.
             
            Presbyter John Whiteford
            St. Jonah Orthodox Church
            Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
            ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
            Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
            Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
            Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

            "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





            From: Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...>
            To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 7:31 PM
            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



            That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than  70 different translations. The reasons are often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.
            On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
             
            The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

            But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

            There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

            Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

            Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

            Presbyter John Whiteford
            St. Jonah Orthodox Church
            Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
            ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
            Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
            Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
            Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

            "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





            From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
            To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
            Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



            Dear Father John,
             
            In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
             
            Our Lord Jesus Christ
             
            Vs
             
            Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
             
            Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
             
            How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
             
            With love (sincerely),
            p. Ilya Gorsky
             

            From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
            Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
            To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
             
             
            I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
             
            Presbyter John Whiteford
            St. Jonah Orthodox Church
            Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
            ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
            Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
            Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
            Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

            "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

             

             

            From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
            To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
            Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
            Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
             
             
             
            Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
             
            Chad W. Paul McBride
            What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
            Chad W. Paul McBride
            What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
             
             
            -------Original Message-------
             
            From: Meg Lark
            Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
             
             
            On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
             
            There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
             
            Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
             
            Meg Lark 
             
             
             
             
             








          • Mark Karahalis
            No, Alexander the Great did. By the time of the birthof Christ, it is estimated that as many as 30% of Greeks became Jewish. On Feb 18, 2013 8:47 PM, Fr. John
            Message 5 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
            • 0 Attachment

              No, Alexander the Great did. By the time of the birthof Christ, it is estimated that as many as 30% of Greeks became Jewish.

              On Feb 18, 2013 8:47 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
               

              Yes, it is too much to ask. The Apostles didn't ask the Greeks to learn Hebrew.
               
              Presbyter John Whiteford
              St. Jonah Orthodox Church
              Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
              ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
              Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
              Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
              Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

              "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





              From: Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...>
              To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 7:31 PM
              Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



              That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than  70 different translations. The reasons are often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.
              On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
               
              The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

              But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

              There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

              Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

              Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

              Presbyter John Whiteford
              St. Jonah Orthodox Church
              Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
              ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
              Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
              Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
              Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

              "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





              From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
              To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
              Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



              Dear Father John,
               
              In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
               
              Our Lord Jesus Christ
               
              Vs
               
              Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
               
              Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
               
              How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
               
              With love (sincerely),
              p. Ilya Gorsky
               

              From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
              Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
              To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
               
               
              I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
               
              Presbyter John Whiteford
              St. Jonah Orthodox Church
              Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
              ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
              Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
              Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
              Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

              "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

               

               

              From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
              To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
              Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
              Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
               
               
               
              Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
               
              Chad W. Paul McBride
              What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
              Chad W. Paul McBride
              What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
               
               
              -------Original Message-------
               
              From: Meg Lark
              Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
              Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
               
               
              On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
               
              There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
               
              Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
               
              Meg Lark 
               
               
               
               
               








            • Mark Karahalis
              If it were not for Alexander s interest in a monotheistic religion, the Jewish religion would have died out. On Feb 18, 2013 8:47 PM, Fr. John Whiteford
              Message 6 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
              • 0 Attachment

                If it were not for Alexander's interest in a monotheistic religion, the Jewish religion would have died out.

                On Feb 18, 2013 8:47 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                 

                Yes, it is too much to ask. The Apostles didn't ask the Greeks to learn Hebrew.
                 
                Presbyter John Whiteford
                St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

                "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                From: Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...>
                To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 7:31 PM
                Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than  70 different translations. The reasons are often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.
                On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                 
                The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

                There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

                Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

                Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                Presbyter John Whiteford
                St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                Dear Father John,
                 
                In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
                 
                Our Lord Jesus Christ
                 
                Vs
                 
                Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                 
                Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                 
                How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
                 
                With love (sincerely),
                p. Ilya Gorsky
                 

                From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                 
                 
                I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
                 
                Presbyter John Whiteford
                St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                 

                 

                From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                 
                 
                 
                Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                 
                Chad W. Paul McBride
                What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                Chad W. Paul McBride
                What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                 
                 
                -------Original Message-------
                 
                From: Meg Lark
                Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                 
                 
                On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
                 
                There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                 
                Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
                 
                Meg Lark 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 








              • frjohnwhiteford
                Says who? And the Apostles still spoke Hebrew (and/or Aramaic), and yet did not ask the Greek to learn Hebrew. Why should the Greeks ask Americans to learn
                Message 7 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  Says who?

                  And the Apostles still spoke Hebrew (and/or Aramaic), and yet did not ask the Greek to learn Hebrew. Why should the Greeks ask Americans to learn Greek?

                  -Fr. John

                  --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > No, Alexander the Great did. By the time of the birthof Christ, it is
                  > estimated that as many as 30% of Greeks became Jewish.
                  > On Feb 18, 2013 8:47 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...>
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > > **
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yes, it is too much to ask. The Apostles didn't ask the Greeks to learn
                  > > Hebrew.
                  > >
                  > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                  > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                  > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                  > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                  > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                  > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                  > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford
                  > > <http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20>
                  > >
                  > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                  > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John
                  > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------
                  > > *From:* Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...>
                  > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                  > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 7:31 PM
                  > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In
                  > > English, there are more than 70 different translations. The reasons are
                  > > often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes
                  > > of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn
                  > > Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for
                  > > christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.
                  > > On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...>
                  > > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > **
                  > >
                  > > The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.
                  > >
                  > > But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is
                  > > inferior to English properly understood.
                  > >
                  > > There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no
                  > > one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical
                  > > language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one
                  > > understands it, does it matter?
                  > >
                  > > Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do
                  > > not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic,
                  > > and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu,
                  > > because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of
                  > > syllables without any meaning.
                  > >
                  > > Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian
                  > > well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do
                  > > English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for
                  > > the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true
                  > > for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert
                  > > typically is.
                  > >
                  > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                  > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                  > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                  > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                  > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                  > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                  > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20
                  > >
                  > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                  > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John
                  > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------
                  > > *From:* Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                  > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                  > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                  > > *Subject:* RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Dear Father John,
                  > >
                  > > In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable
                  > > preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod'] labels
                  > > Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch's
                  > > construct, "gospodin", clearly refers to him as a man.
                  > >
                  > > Our Lord Jesus Christ
                  > >
                  > > Vs
                  > >
                  > > Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                  > >
                  > > Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the
                  > > patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                  > >
                  > > How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried
                  > > through?
                  > >
                  > > With love (sincerely),
                  > > p. Ilya Gorsky
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------
                  > > *From:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
                  > > orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Fr. John Whiteford
                  > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                  > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                  > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference
                  > > between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't
                  > > cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking
                  > > about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for
                  > > business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman
                  > > too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the
                  > > practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are
                  > > unable to understand it very well.
                  > >
                  > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                  > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                  > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                  > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                  > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                  > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                  > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20
                  > >
                  > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                  > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John
                  > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                  > >
                  > > * *
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------
                  > > *From:* Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                  > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                  > > *Cc:* Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                  > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                  > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                  > >
                  > > Chad W. Paul McBride
                  > > c_mcbride7@...
                  > > What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                  > > Chad W. Paul McBride
                  > > c_mcbride7@...
                  > > What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > *-------Original Message-------*
                  > >
                  > > *From:* Meg Lark <woolfolk3@...>
                  > > *Date:* 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                  > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                  > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <
                  > > savante914@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                  > >
                  > > Sticking my neck out here, but... That's actually why I prefer Russian
                  > > music to Greek music. Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's
                  > > really written only for Greek words. Trying to alter it to fit English
                  > > words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that
                  > > sound just plain bizarre in English. Whereas, Russian music has a
                  > > wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic
                  > > with no problem.
                  > >
                  > > Meg Lark
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • frjohnwhiteford
                  Where do you get that? I believe that God is on the throne, and so don t believe that the survival of the Truth Faith depended on the whims of Alexander the
                  Message 8 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Where do you get that?

                    I believe that God is on the throne, and so don't believe that the survival of the Truth Faith depended on the whims of Alexander the Great.

                    -Fr. John Whiteford


                    --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > If it were not for Alexander's interest in a monotheistic religion, the
                    > Jewish religion would have died out.
                    > On Feb 18, 2013 8:47 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...>
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > > **
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yes, it is too much to ask. The Apostles didn't ask the Greeks to learn
                    > > Hebrew.
                    > >
                    > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                    > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                    > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                    > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                    > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                    > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                    > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford
                    > > <http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20>
                    > >
                    > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                    > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John
                    > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------
                    > > *From:* Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...>
                    > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                    > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 7:31 PM
                    > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In
                    > > English, there are more than 70 different translations. The reasons are
                    > > often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes
                    > > of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn
                    > > Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for
                    > > christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.
                    > > On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...>
                    > > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > **
                    > >
                    > > The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.
                    > >
                    > > But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is
                    > > inferior to English properly understood.
                    > >
                    > > There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no
                    > > one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical
                    > > language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one
                    > > understands it, does it matter?
                    > >
                    > > Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do
                    > > not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic,
                    > > and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu,
                    > > because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of
                    > > syllables without any meaning.
                    > >
                    > > Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian
                    > > well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do
                    > > English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for
                    > > the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true
                    > > for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert
                    > > typically is.
                    > >
                    > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                    > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                    > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                    > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                    > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                    > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                    > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20
                    > >
                    > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                    > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John
                    > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------
                    > > *From:* Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                    > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                    > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                    > > *Subject:* RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Dear Father John,
                    > >
                    > > In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable
                    > > preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod'] labels
                    > > Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch's
                    > > construct, "gospodin", clearly refers to him as a man.
                    > >
                    > > Our Lord Jesus Christ
                    > >
                    > > Vs
                    > >
                    > > Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                    > >
                    > > Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the
                    > > patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                    > >
                    > > How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried
                    > > through?
                    > >
                    > > With love (sincerely),
                    > > p. Ilya Gorsky
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------
                    > > *From:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
                    > > orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Fr. John Whiteford
                    > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                    > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                    > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference
                    > > between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't
                    > > cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking
                    > > about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for
                    > > business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman
                    > > too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the
                    > > practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are
                    > > unable to understand it very well.
                    > >
                    > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                    > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                    > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                    > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                    > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                    > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                    > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20
                    > >
                    > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                    > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John
                    > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                    > >
                    > > * *
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------
                    > > *From:* Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                    > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                    > > *Cc:* Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                    > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                    > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                    > >
                    > > Chad W. Paul McBride
                    > > c_mcbride7@...
                    > > What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                    > > Chad W. Paul McBride
                    > > c_mcbride7@...
                    > > What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > *-------Original Message-------*
                    > >
                    > > *From:* Meg Lark <woolfolk3@...>
                    > > *Date:* 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                    > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                    > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <
                    > > savante914@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                    > >
                    > > Sticking my neck out here, but... That's actually why I prefer Russian
                    > > music to Greek music. Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's
                    > > really written only for Greek words. Trying to alter it to fit English
                    > > words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that
                    > > sound just plain bizarre in English. Whereas, Russian music has a
                    > > wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic
                    > > with no problem.
                    > >
                    > > Meg Lark
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Mark Karahalis
                    It is history. Ask most any rabbi. I am sure you could see it on the internet. Ill see if wiki has it with refferences for you. On Feb 18, 2013 9:00 PM,
                    Message 9 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment

                      It is history. Ask most any rabbi. I am sure you could see it on the internet. Ill see if wiki has it with refferences for you.

                      On Feb 18, 2013 9:00 PM, "frjohnwhiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                       

                      Where do you get that?

                      I believe that God is on the throne, and so don't believe that the survival of the Truth Faith depended on the whims of Alexander the Great.

                      -Fr. John Whiteford

                      --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Mark Karahalis wrote:
                      >
                      > If it were not for Alexander's interest in a monotheistic religion, the
                      > Jewish religion would have died out.
                      > On Feb 18, 2013 8:47 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford"
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      > > **
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yes, it is too much to ask. The Apostles didn't ask the Greeks to learn
                      > > Hebrew.
                      > >
                      > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                      > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                      > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                      > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                      > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                      > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                      > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford
                      > > http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20>
                      > >
                      > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                      > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John
                      > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------
                      > > *From:* Mark Karahalis
                      > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                      > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 7:31 PM
                      > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In
                      > > English, there are more than 70 different translations. The reasons are
                      > > often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes
                      > > of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn
                      > > Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for
                      > > christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.
                      > > On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford"
                      > > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > **
                      > >
                      > > The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.
                      > >
                      > > But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is
                      > > inferior to English properly understood.
                      > >
                      > > There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no
                      > > one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical
                      > > language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one
                      > > understands it, does it matter?
                      > >
                      > > Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do
                      > > not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic,
                      > > and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu,
                      > > because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of
                      > > syllables without any meaning.
                      > >
                      > > Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian
                      > > well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do
                      > > English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for
                      > > the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true
                      > > for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert
                      > > typically is.
                      > >
                      > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                      > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                      > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                      > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                      > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                      > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                      > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20
                      > >
                      > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                      > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John
                      > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------
                      > > *From:* Elias G. Gorsky
                      > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                      > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                      > > *Subject:* RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Dear Father John,
                      > >
                      > > In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable
                      > > preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod'] labels
                      > > Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch's
                      > > construct, "gospodin", clearly refers to him as a man.
                      > >
                      > > Our Lord Jesus Christ
                      > >
                      > > Vs
                      > >
                      > > Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                      > >
                      > > Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the
                      > > patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                      > >
                      > > How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried
                      > > through?
                      > >
                      > > With love (sincerely),
                      > > p. Ilya Gorsky
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------
                      > > *From:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
                      > > orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Fr. John Whiteford
                      > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                      > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                      > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference
                      > > between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't
                      > > cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking
                      > > about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for
                      > > business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman
                      > > too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the
                      > > practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are
                      > > unable to understand it very well.
                      > >
                      > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                      > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                      > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                      > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                      > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                      > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                      > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20
                      > >
                      > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                      > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John
                      > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                      > >
                      > > * *
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------
                      > > *From:* Chad W. Paul McBride
                      > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                      > > *Cc:* Chad W. Paul McBride
                      > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                      > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                      > >
                      > > Chad W. Paul McBride
                      > > c_mcbride7@...
                      > > What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                      > > Chad W. Paul McBride
                      > > c_mcbride7@...
                      > > What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > *-------Original Message-------*
                      > >
                      > > *From:* Meg Lark
                      > > *Date:* 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                      > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                      > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <
                      > > savante914@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                      > >
                      > > Sticking my neck out here, but... That's actually why I prefer Russian
                      > > music to Greek music. Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's
                      > > really written only for Greek words. Trying to alter it to fit English
                      > > words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that
                      > > sound just plain bizarre in English. Whereas, Russian music has a
                      > > wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic
                      > > with no problem.
                      > >
                      > > Meg Lark
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >

                    • frjohnwhiteford
                      No, it is not history. If you want to argue to the contrary, you will have to present some references to actual historical documents, not wikipedia, but that
                      Message 10 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        No, it is not history. If you want to argue to the contrary, you will have to present some references to actual historical documents, not wikipedia, but that still would prove that God was off the throne, and Alexander the Great was on it.

                        --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > It is history. Ask most any rabbi. I am sure you could see it on the
                        > internet. Ill see if wiki has it with refferences for you.
                        > On Feb 18, 2013 9:00 PM, "frjohnwhiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...>
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        > > **
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Where do you get that?
                        > >
                        > > I believe that God is on the throne, and so don't believe that the
                        > > survival of the Truth Faith depended on the whims of Alexander the Great.
                        > >
                        > > -Fr. John Whiteford
                        > >
                        > > --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Mark Karahalis wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > If it were not for Alexander's interest in a monotheistic religion, the
                        > > > Jewish religion would have died out.
                        > > > On Feb 18, 2013 8:47 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford"
                        > > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > > **
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Yes, it is too much to ask. The Apostles didn't ask the Greeks to learn
                        > > > > Hebrew.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                        > > > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                        > > > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                        > > > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                        > > > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                        > > > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                        > > > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford
                        > > > > http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20>
                        > > > >
                        > > > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                        > > > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John
                        > > > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ------------------------------
                        > > > > *From:* Mark Karahalis
                        > > > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 7:31 PM
                        > > > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible
                        > > translations. In
                        > > > > English, there are more than 70 different translations. The reasons are
                        > > > > often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the
                        > > causes
                        > > > > of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to
                        > > learn
                        > > > > Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for
                        > > > > christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.
                        > > > > On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford"
                        > > > > wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > **
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is
                        > > > > inferior to English properly understood.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no
                        > > > > one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical
                        > > > > language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one
                        > > > > understands it, does it matter?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who
                        > > do
                        > > > > not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper
                        > > Slavonic,
                        > > > > and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in
                        > > Zulu,
                        > > > > because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of
                        > > > > syllables without any meaning.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian
                        > > > > well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do
                        > > > > English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English
                        > > for
                        > > > > the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is
                        > > true
                        > > > > for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian
                        > > convert
                        > > > > typically is.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                        > > > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                        > > > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                        > > > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                        > > > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                        > > > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                        > > > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20
                        > > > >
                        > > > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                        > > > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John
                        > > > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ------------------------------
                        > > > > *From:* Elias G. Gorsky
                        > > > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                        > > > > *Subject:* RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Dear Father John,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give
                        > > insurmountable
                        > > > > preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod']
                        > > labels
                        > > > > Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch's
                        > > > > construct, "gospodin", clearly refers to him as a man.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Our Lord Jesus Christ
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Vs
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the
                        > > > > patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is
                        > > carried
                        > > > > through?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > With love (sincerely),
                        > > > > p. Ilya Gorsky
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ------------------------------
                        > > > > *From:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
                        > > > > orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Fr. John Whiteford
                        > > > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                        > > > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference
                        > > > > between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who
                        > > can't
                        > > > > cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was
                        > > talking
                        > > > > about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form)
                        > > for
                        > > > > business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful
                        > > woman
                        > > > > too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the
                        > > > > practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who
                        > > are
                        > > > > unable to understand it very well.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                        > > > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                        > > > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                        > > > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                        > > > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                        > > > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                        > > > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20
                        > > > >
                        > > > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                        > > > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St.
                        > > John
                        > > > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > * *
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ------------------------------
                        > > > > *From:* Chad W. Paul McBride
                        > > > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > *Cc:* Chad W. Paul McBride
                        > > > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                        > > > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Chad W. Paul McBride
                        > > > > c_mcbride7@
                        > > > > What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                        > > > > Chad W. Paul McBride
                        > > > > c_mcbride7@
                        > > > > What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > *-------Original Message-------*
                        > > > >
                        > > > > *From:* Meg Lark
                        > > > > *Date:* 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                        > > > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@ <
                        > > > > savante914@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Sticking my neck out here, but... That's actually why I prefer Russian
                        > > > > music to Greek music. Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's
                        > > > > really written only for Greek words. Trying to alter it to fit English
                        > > > > words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions
                        > > that
                        > > > > sound just plain bizarre in English. Whereas, Russian music has a
                        > > > > wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church
                        > > Slavonic
                        > > > > with no problem.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Meg Lark
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Dale Dickerson
                        English translations are ok and can communication the needed message. However, wishing that people could understand the Scriptures  in the original language
                        Message 11 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          English translations are ok and can communication the needed message. However, wishing that people could understand the Scriptures  in the original language is not really asking to much. However it  might be an unreachable goal or wish.

                          Dale Dickerson



                          From: Fr. John Whiteford <frjohnwhiteford@...>
                          To: "orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com" <orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 8:47 PM
                          Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

                           
                          Yes, it is too much to ask. The Apostles didn't ask the Greeks to learn Hebrew.
                           
                          Presbyter John Whiteford
                          St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                          Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                          ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                          Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                          Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                          Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                          "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                          From: Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...>
                          To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 7:31 PM
                          Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                          That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than  70 different translations. The reasons are often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.
                          On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                           
                          The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                          But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

                          There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

                          Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

                          Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                          Presbyter John Whiteford
                          St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                          Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                          ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                          Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                          Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                          Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                          "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                          From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                          To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                          Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                          Dear Father John,
                           
                          In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
                           
                          Our Lord Jesus Christ
                           
                          Vs
                           
                          Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                           
                          Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                           
                          How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
                           
                          With love (sincerely),
                          p. Ilya Gorsky
                           

                          From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                          Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                          To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                           
                           
                          I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
                           
                          Presbyter John Whiteford
                          St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                          Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                          ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                          Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                          Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                          Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                          "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                           

                           

                          From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                          To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                          Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                          Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                          Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                           
                           
                           
                          Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                           
                          Chad W. Paul McBride
                          What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                          Chad W. Paul McBride
                          What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                           
                           
                          -------Original Message-------
                           
                          From: Meg Lark
                          Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                          Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                           
                           
                          On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
                           
                          There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                           
                          Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
                           
                          Meg Lark 
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           










                        • Elias G. Gorsky
                          Re: The Greek word for a human lord , and God the Lord is the same. That just proves that Slavonic is superior to Greek, too. Re: Even to Russians who have
                          Message 12 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
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                            Re:

                             

                            The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                             

                            That just proves that Slavonic is superior to Greek, too.

                             

                             

                            Re:

                             

                            Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                             

                            You are absolutely correct, Father John! In no way, need English speakers learn Slavonic, much less Russian. If there is a single person in the church that would not understand Russian, my sermon is in English. Our services are in both languages.

                             

                            p. Ilya Gorsky


                            From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                            Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 8:16 PM
                            To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

                             

                             

                            The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                             

                            But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

                             

                            There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

                             

                            Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

                             

                            Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                             

                            Presbyter John Whiteford
                            St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                            Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                            ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                            Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                            Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                            Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

                            "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                             

                             


                            From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                            To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                            Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

                             

                             

                            Dear Father John,

                             

                            In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.

                             

                            Our Lord Jesus Christ

                             

                            Vs

                             

                            Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill

                             

                            Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.

                             

                            How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?

                             

                            With love (sincerely),

                            p. Ilya Gorsky

                             


                            From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                            Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                            To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

                             

                             

                            I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.

                             

                            Presbyter John Whiteford
                            St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                            Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                            ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                            Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                            Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                            Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                            "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                             

                             


                            From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                            To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                            Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                            Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

                             

                             

                             

                            Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.

                             

                            Chad W. Paul McBride

                            What we do in life, Echoes in eternity

                            Chad W. Paul McBride

                            What we do in life, Echoes in eternity

                             

                             

                            -------Original Message-------

                             

                            From: Meg Lark

                            Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41

                            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

                             

                             

                            On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:

                             

                            There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.

                             

                            Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.

                             

                            Meg Lark 

                             

                             

                             

                             

                             

                             

                             

                          • hobbitofny
                            To all who answered my original question, I thank you. As for the way it lead to the exchanges on the topic that followed, I ask your forgiveness. Dale
                            Message 13 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
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                              To all who answered my original question, I thank you. As for the way it lead to the exchanges on the topic that followed, I ask your forgiveness.

                              Dale Dickerson

                              --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "hobbitofny" <hobbitofny@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > What is the difference between the tones used for English and those for Church Slavonic?
                              >
                              > Dale Dickerson
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Tone Tutor
                              > > For those who are unable to go to the Summer Liturgical School in
                              > > Jordanville, the Tone Tutor is an excellent set of CDs that will teach
                              > > you the 8 tones according to the common usage of the Russian Church, and
                              > > uses the methods taught at Jordanville. There are 10 CDs: one for each
                              > > of the 8 tones. One for "mid term" and "final" tests, and one for
                              > > refreshing your memory. This tone teaches each variation of the 8 tones:
                              > > the troparion, sticheron, sticheron refrains, prokimenon, and irmos
                              > > melodies. The program is completely audio based... you need only pop in
                              > > the first CD, and follow the instructions from there.
                              > >
                              > > This fills an important need. In the 90's there was a cassette tape
                              > > available, but it was not nearly as user friendly, and the translation
                              > > used for the text was not the most commonly used ones in ROCOR.
                              > >
                              > > Choir members who have not yet memorized the tones will greatly benefit
                              > > from this, and especially those who are thrust into the position of
                              > > manning the cliros, and have no one else to prompt them when a
                              > > particular tone is called for, and they have no one to get them started.
                              > > Many years ago, I was in that situation, and I used some cassette tapes
                              > > that were available, and worked on the tone of the week each week,
                              > > until I had them all down. But this is a much more thorough program. I
                              > > highly recommend it.
                              > >
                              > > It can be purchased by clicking here.
                              > >  
                              > > http://www.ocrb.org/products/tonetutor101
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                              > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                              > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                              > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                              > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                              > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                              > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford
                              > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                              > >
                              >
                            • Stephen/Στέφανος
                              Because, in correct English, lord and father, should NEVER be capitalized when referring to the Patriarch…. Unless it were the first word of a sentence….
                              Message 14 of 27 , Feb 19, 2013
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                                Because, in correct English, "lord and father, should NEVER be capitalized when referring to the Patriarch…. Unless it were the first word of a sentence…. 

                                Just like Greek…. Κύριος for our Lord Christ…. and κύριος when referring to a human.  

                                Stephanos Upton 

                                Sent from my iPhone, Stephen/Στέφανος 

                                On Feb 18, 2013, at 11:49, "Elias G. Gorsky" <egorsky@...> wrote:

                                 

                                Dear Father John,

                                 

                                In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.

                                 

                                Our Lord Jesus Christ

                                 

                                Vs

                                 

                                Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill

                                 

                                Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.

                                 

                                How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?

                                 

                                With love (sincerely),

                                p. Ilya Gorsky

                                 


                                From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                                Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                                To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

                                 

                                 

                                I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.

                                 

                                Presbyter John Whiteford
                                St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

                                "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                                 

                                 


                                From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                                Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.

                                 

                                Chad W. Paul McBride

                                What we do in life, Echoes in eternity

                                Chad W. Paul McBride

                                What we do in life, Echoes in eternity

                                 

                                 

                                -------Original Message-------

                                 

                                From: Meg Lark

                                Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41

                                Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

                                 

                                 

                                On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:

                                 

                                There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.

                                 

                                Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.

                                 

                                Meg Lark 

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                 

                              • Meg Lark
                                ... That s actually my fault, Dale, and I ask forgiveness as well. Still, I have greatly enjoyed the exchanges on the subject of languages and their
                                Message 15 of 27 , Feb 19, 2013
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                                  On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 9:40 PM, hobbitofny <hobbitofny@...> wrote:
                                   


                                  To all who answered my original question, I thank you. As for the way it lead to the exchanges on the topic that followed, I ask your forgiveness.

                                  Dale Dickerson


                                  That's actually my fault, Dale, and I ask forgiveness as well.  Still, I have greatly enjoyed the exchanges on the subject of languages and their relationship to music, and have learned a few things along the way, so it hasn't been a total loss.

                                  For Mark Karahalis:  Not everyone is linguistically inclined, but every Christian should be able to read and understand both the Bible and the Divine Liturgy that contains so much of it.  This is why we have Biblical scholars to study these things, and the meaning of the words.  The Orthodox Study Bible may not be perfect, but it is a Bible translated by Orthodox Christians, and all the priests I know use only it or the King James Bible.

                                  Stephanos - we think alike on the subject of "You-Who" English, and I am sure I would feel the same about liturgical vs. modern Greek, or Church Slavonic vs. modern Russian (though I must say, having taken Russian courses in college, that I didn't have *too* much of a problem with vocabulary.  A Russian priest told me that the problem for most Russians is the grammar - Church Slavonic follows Greek grammar, he said, and that's what confuses Russians).

                                  In Christ, again asking everyone's forgiveness, though with thanks for the exchange,

                                  Meg Lark
                                • Chad W. Paul McBride
                                  If you want Greek go to a Greek church. Chad W. Paul McBride c_mcbride7@yahoo.com What we do in life, Echoes in eternity ... From: Mark Karahalis Date:
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Feb 20, 2013
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                                    If you want Greek go to a Greek church.  
                                     
                                     
                                    Chad W. Paul McBride
                                    What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                    -------Original Message-------
                                     
                                    Date: 2/18/2013 19:46:19
                                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                     
                                     

                                    That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than  70 different translations. The reasons are often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.

                                    On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                                    But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

                                    There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

                                    Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

                                    Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                                    Presbyter John Whiteford
                                    St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                    Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                    ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                    Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                    Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                    Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

                                    "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                                    From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                                    To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                                    Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                                    Dear Father John,
                                     
                                    In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
                                     
                                    Our Lord Jesus Christ
                                     
                                    Vs
                                     
                                    Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                                     
                                    Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                                     
                                    How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
                                     
                                    With love (sincerely),
                                    p. Ilya Gorsky
                                     

                                    From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                                    Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                                    To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                     
                                     
                                    I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
                                     
                                    Presbyter John Whiteford
                                    St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                    Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                    ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                    Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                    Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                    Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                                    "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                                     

                                     

                                    From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                    To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                    Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                    Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                    Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                                     
                                    Chad W. Paul McBride
                                    What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                    Chad W. Paul McBride
                                    What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                     
                                     
                                    -------Original Message-------
                                     
                                    From: Meg Lark
                                    Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                     
                                     
                                    On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
                                     
                                    There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                                     
                                    Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
                                     
                                    Meg Lark 
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     




                                     
                                  • Chad W. Paul McBride
                                    I completely agree. Chad W. Paul McBride c_mcbride7@yahoo.com What we do in life, Echoes in eternity ... From: Meg Lark Date: 2/18/2013 10:34:55 To:
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Feb 20, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I completely agree.
                                       
                                       
                                      Chad W. Paul McBride
                                      What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                      -------Original Message-------
                                       
                                      From: Meg Lark
                                      Date: 2/18/2013 10:34:55
                                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                       
                                       

                                      On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:46 AM, Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...> wrote:

                                       

                                       
                                      Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.


                                      It can be, but if you put just a little effort into English, it can be equally pretty (and OK, again sticking my neck out, my preference is for *liturgical* English, which is also more grammatically correct when addressing the Triune God).

                                      The main thing about any of our liturgical prayers is that they remain *prayers,* and not just an expression of our ethnic pride (and for the record, all appearances to the contrary, I do claim Russian ethnicity - my father was of Russian descent).  The very worst thing we could do would be to get sidetracked into the kind of thing that goes on in the West - dumbing down our Liturgies for the sake of Keeping the Youth.  Due to the geographical peculiarities of my locale, I've had a lot of exposure to various jurisdictions, and I can tell you that the most successful parishes, in *any* jurisdiction, are the most traditional parishes, with a strong emphasis on prayer.

                                      So yes, we need Liturgies to be in a language comprehensible to the parish, and if we have parishioners who aren't quite so comfortable with English, we should take pains to help them get comfortable with it - after all, they live here now.  But we should never stoop so low as to think we need to be Contemporary.  /shudder/

                                      In Christ,
                                      Meg

                                       
                                    • Mark Karahalis
                                      the point is aboutdeveloping wisdom. Truth + Knowledge = Wisdom On Feb 20, 2013 7:08 AM, Chad W. Paul McBride ... the point is
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Feb 20, 2013
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                                        the point is aboutdeveloping wisdom.

                                        Truth + Knowledge = Wisdom

                                        On Feb 20, 2013 7:08 AM, "Chad W. Paul McBride" <c_mcbride7@...> wrote:
                                         

                                        If you want Greek go to a Greek church.  
                                         
                                         
                                        Chad W. Paul McBride
                                        What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                        -------Original Message-------
                                         
                                        Date: 2/18/2013 19:46:19
                                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                         
                                         

                                        That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than  70 different translations. The reasons are often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.

                                        On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                                         

                                        The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                                        But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

                                        There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

                                        Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

                                        Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                                        Presbyter John Whiteford
                                        St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                        Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                        ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                        Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                        Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                        Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

                                        "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                                        From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                                        To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                                        Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                                        Dear Father John,
                                         
                                        In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
                                         
                                        Our Lord Jesus Christ
                                         
                                        Vs
                                         
                                        Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                                         
                                        Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                                         
                                        How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
                                         
                                        With love (sincerely),
                                        p. Ilya Gorsky
                                         

                                        From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                                        Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                                        To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                         
                                         
                                        I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
                                         
                                        Presbyter John Whiteford
                                        St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                        Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                        ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                        Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                        Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                        Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                                        "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                                         

                                         

                                        From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                        To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                        Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                        Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                        Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                                         
                                        Chad W. Paul McBride
                                        What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                        Chad W. Paul McBride
                                        What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                         
                                         
                                        -------Original Message-------
                                         
                                        From: Meg Lark
                                        Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                         
                                         
                                        On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
                                         
                                        There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                                         
                                        Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
                                         
                                        Meg Lark 
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                         




                                         
                                      • John Billo
                                        No, the point is about acquiring the Holy Spirit. That s pretty hard to do when clergy are speaking in foreign tongues. Reference the examples of Sy Cyril and
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Feb 20, 2013
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          No, the point is about acquiring the Holy Spirit. 
                                           
                                          That's pretty hard to do when clergy are speaking in foreign tongues.  Reference the examples of Sy Cyril and Methodius, enlighteners of the Slavs.  They taught in the native language.  The holy saints, Tikhon, Innocent, and Jacob of Alaska, all taught in the native language.  So too, do our missionary people of today in Albania, Africa, and Asia seek to learn the native language so they can teach the faith in the native tongue.
                                           
                                          Not everyone has the time, energy, and aptitude in today's environment to learn a foreign language after working 40-50 hours a week and tending to their families' needs.
                                           
                                          It is easier to correct the poor translations then ask the thousands of Orthodox Christians in  America to learn the greek text.
                                           
                                          In ICXC,
                                          John Billo

                                          On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 6:23 AM, Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...> wrote:
                                           

                                          the point is aboutdeveloping wisdom.

                                          Truth + Knowledge = Wisdom

                                          On Feb 20, 2013 7:08 AM, "Chad W. Paul McBride" <c_mcbride7@...> wrote:
                                           

                                          If you want Greek go to a Greek church.  
                                           
                                           
                                          Chad W. Paul McBride
                                          What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                          -------Original Message-------
                                           
                                          Date: 2/18/2013 19:46:19
                                          Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                           
                                           

                                          That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than  70 different translations. The reasons are often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.

                                          On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                                           

                                          The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                                          But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

                                          There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

                                          Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

                                          Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                                          Presbyter John Whiteford
                                          St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                          Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                          ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                          Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                          Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                          Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

                                          "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                                          From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                                          To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                                          Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                                          Dear Father John,
                                           
                                          In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
                                           
                                          Our Lord Jesus Christ
                                           
                                          Vs
                                           
                                          Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                                           
                                          Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                                           
                                          How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
                                           
                                          With love (sincerely),
                                          p. Ilya Gorsky
                                           

                                          From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                                          Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                                          To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                           
                                           
                                          I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
                                           
                                          Presbyter John Whiteford
                                          St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                          Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                          ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                          Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                          Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                          Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                                          "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                                           

                                           

                                          From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                          To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                          Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                          Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                          Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                                           
                                          Chad W. Paul McBride
                                          What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                          Chad W. Paul McBride
                                          What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                           
                                           
                                          -------Original Message-------
                                           
                                          From: Meg Lark
                                          Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                                          Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                           
                                           
                                          On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
                                           
                                          There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                                           
                                          Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
                                           
                                          Meg Lark 
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                           




                                           


                                        • Mark Karahalis
                                          Trust has always been an issue. To paraphrase king james. -- beware of the yeast of the sadjuces and the pharoeeses. If as many people learn hellenist greek it
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Feb 20, 2013
                                          • 0 Attachment

                                            Trust has always been an issue. To paraphrase king james. -- beware of the yeast of the sadjuces and the pharoeeses.
                                            If as many people learn hellenist greek it keeps our theologians honest.
                                            During the time of St. Gregory the Theologian every educated person (and most were!) were overjoyed at his interpretation. Why? Because of this equation ---- Knowledge + Truth = Wisdom. This equation is the basis for all philosophy.

                                            By God's Grace. Nun Evlogimeno. Славо Бого!

                                            Mark Karahalis

                                            On Feb 20, 2013 9:38 AM, "John Billo" <johnbillo@...> wrote:
                                             

                                            No, the point is about acquiring the Holy Spirit. 
                                             
                                            That's pretty hard to do when clergy are speaking in foreign tongues.  Reference the examples of Sy Cyril and Methodius, enlighteners of the Slavs.  They taught in the native language.  The holy saints, Tikhon, Innocent, and Jacob of Alaska, all taught in the native language.  So too, do our missionary people of today in Albania, Africa, and Asia seek to learn the native language so they can teach the faith in the native tongue.
                                             
                                            Not everyone has the time, energy, and aptitude in today's environment to learn a foreign language after working 40-50 hours a week and tending to their families' needs.
                                             
                                            It is easier to correct the poor translations then ask the thousands of Orthodox Christians in  America to learn the greek text.
                                             
                                            In ICXC,
                                            John Billo

                                            On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 6:23 AM, Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...> wrote:
                                             

                                            the point is aboutdeveloping wisdom.

                                            Truth + Knowledge = Wisdom

                                            On Feb 20, 2013 7:08 AM, "Chad W. Paul McBride" <c_mcbride7@...> wrote:
                                             

                                            If you want Greek go to a Greek church.  
                                             
                                             
                                            Chad W. Paul McBride
                                            What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                            -------Original Message-------
                                             
                                            Date: 2/18/2013 19:46:19
                                            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                             
                                             

                                            That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than  70 different translations. The reasons are often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.

                                            On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                                             

                                            The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                                            But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

                                            There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

                                            Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

                                            Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                                            Presbyter John Whiteford
                                            St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                            Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                            ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                            Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                            Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                            Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

                                            "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                                            From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                                            To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                                            Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                                            Dear Father John,
                                             
                                            In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
                                             
                                            Our Lord Jesus Christ
                                             
                                            Vs
                                             
                                            Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                                             
                                            Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                                             
                                            How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
                                             
                                            With love (sincerely),
                                            p. Ilya Gorsky
                                             

                                            From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                                            Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                                            To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                             
                                             
                                            I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
                                             
                                            Presbyter John Whiteford
                                            St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                            Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                            ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                            Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                            Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                            Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                                            "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                                             

                                             

                                            From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                            To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                            Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                            Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                             
                                             
                                             
                                            Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                                             
                                            Chad W. Paul McBride
                                            What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                            Chad W. Paul McBride
                                            What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                             
                                             
                                            -------Original Message-------
                                             
                                            From: Meg Lark
                                            Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                                            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                             
                                             
                                            On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
                                             
                                            There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                                             
                                            Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
                                             
                                            Meg Lark 
                                             
                                             
                                             
                                             
                                             




                                             


                                          • bismarc
                                            ... ***********Juohn I see your point. Whereas in the ancient Church we westerners & African peoples had services in our languages. Its Christ imperative to
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Feb 20, 2013
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, John Billo <johnbillo@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > No, the point is about acquiring the Holy Spirit.
                                              >
                                              > That's pretty hard to do when clergy are speaking in foreign tongues.
                                              > Reference the examples of Sy Cyril and Methodius, enlighteners of the
                                              > Slavs. They taught in the native language. The holy saints, Tikhon,
                                              > Innocent, and Jacob of Alaska, all taught in the native language. So too,
                                              > do our missionary people of today in Albania, Africa, and Asia seek to
                                              > learn the native language so they can teach the faith in the native tongue.
                                              >
                                              > Not everyone has the time, energy, and aptitude in today's environment to
                                              > learn a foreign language after working 40-50 hours a week and tending to
                                              > their families' needs.
                                              >
                                              > It is easier to correct the poor translations then ask the thousands of
                                              > Orthodox Christians in America to learn the greek text.
                                              >
                                              > In ICXC,
                                              > John Billo
                                              ***********Juohn I see your point. Whereas in the ancient Church we westerners & African peoples had services in our languages. Its Christ imperative to the Apostles & other early Christians to go to all nations to spread the Word. In the Book of Acts we see God handing a miracle to the Apostles to teach & spread in foreign tongues that we lack.*
                                              *That said its good we now have an abundance of literature, books & services in English & other languages. In 1968 when my Spiritual Father he lacked a lot. Yes out of Platina came the "Orthodox Word" & then other English books/services.*
                                              *However I can live w/Russian, Greek, Serbian etc language services. Yes my knowledge of langauges is poor to Bishop Jerome's. Sometimes I still look to see when its time to do the sign of the Cross & other acts of worship. Unlike modern day Pentecostalist new age talking of tongues I can learn the languages we have. Plus its good for me to have an awareness of where I'm at. If I am in a non Englsih speaking parish I can adjust. Point is that I came to speak to God. I am sure while others are using say Greek, Russian etc God can hear me in English as well.*
                                              *When I saw this post I feared yet another Greek V Russian language & culture in our Holy Orthodox Church. Its been better than that. Frankly I am not Russian nor Greek. A Greek Bishop once told me in the late 60s when converts were a coming at 1st they tried to be little Greeks, Russians etc. He said they even dressed as medevial Greeks or others. He said it was fine to learn others cultures but be what we are. He liked Wisconsin as we make really good cheese he said but he is no cheese maker.*
                                              *I need to get to services. To worship God. To get a break from the daily mundane stuff of life. Sure its nice to get together w/others but its best to get there.
                                              In Christ
                                              Xenos Mann
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