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Tone Tutor

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  • Fr. John Whiteford
    Tone Tutor For those who are unable to go to the Summer Liturgical School in Jordanville, the Tone Tutor is an excellent set of CDs that will teach you the 8
    Message 1 of 27 , Jan 1, 2013
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      Tone Tutor


      For those who are unable to go to the Summer Liturgical School in Jordanville, the Tone Tutor is an excellent set of CDs that will teach you the 8 tones according to the common usage of the Russian Church, and uses the methods taught at Jordanville. There are 10 CDs: one for each of the 8 tones. One for "mid term" and "final" tests, and one for refreshing your memory. This tone teaches each variation of the 8 tones: the troparion, sticheron, sticheron refrains, prokimenon, and irmos melodies. The program is completely audio based... you need only pop in the first CD, and follow the instructions from there.

      This fills an important need. In the 90's there was a cassette tape available, but it was not nearly as user friendly, and the translation used for the text was not the most commonly used ones in ROCOR.

      Choir members who have not yet memorized the tones will greatly benefit from this, and especially those who are thrust into the position of manning the cliros, and have no one else to prompt them when a particular tone is called for, and they have no one to get them started. Many years ago, I was in that situation, and I used some cassette tapes that were available, and worked on the tone of the week each week, until I had them all down. But this is a much more thorough program. I highly recommend it.

      It can be purchased by clicking here.
      Presbyter John Whiteford
      St. Jonah Orthodox Church
      Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
      ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
      Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
      Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
      Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford
      "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
    • hobbitofny
      What is the difference between the tones used for English and those for Church Slavonic? Dale Dickerson
      Message 2 of 27 , Feb 15, 2013
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        What is the difference between the tones used for English and those for Church Slavonic?

        Dale Dickerson


        --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
        >
        > Tone Tutor
        > For those who are unable to go to the Summer Liturgical School in
        > Jordanville, the Tone Tutor is an excellent set of CDs that will teach
        > you the 8 tones according to the common usage of the Russian Church, and
        > uses the methods taught at Jordanville. There are 10 CDs: one for each
        > of the 8 tones. One for "mid term" and "final" tests, and one for
        > refreshing your memory. This tone teaches each variation of the 8 tones:
        > the troparion, sticheron, sticheron refrains, prokimenon, and irmos
        > melodies. The program is completely audio based... you need only pop in
        > the first CD, and follow the instructions from there.
        >
        > This fills an important need. In the 90's there was a cassette tape
        > available, but it was not nearly as user friendly, and the translation
        > used for the text was not the most commonly used ones in ROCOR.
        >
        > Choir members who have not yet memorized the tones will greatly benefit
        > from this, and especially those who are thrust into the position of
        > manning the cliros, and have no one else to prompt them when a
        > particular tone is called for, and they have no one to get them started.
        > Many years ago, I was in that situation, and I used some cassette tapes
        > that were available, and worked on the tone of the week each week,
        > until I had them all down. But this is a much more thorough program. I
        > highly recommend it.
        >
        > It can be purchased by clicking here.
        >  
        > http://www.ocrb.org/products/tonetutor101
        >
        >
        > Presbyter John Whiteford
        > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
        > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
        > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
        > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
        > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
        > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford
        > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
        >
      • Meg Lark
        ... Language, as far as I can tell. That is, there is no difference in the melodies. If they sound different, it might be because the melody is often (but
        Message 3 of 27 , Feb 16, 2013
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          On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 7:47 PM, hobbitofny <hobbitofny@...> wrote:
           


          What is the difference between the tones used for English and those for Church Slavonic?

          Dale Dickerson


          Language, as far as I can tell.  That is, there is no difference in the melodies.  If they sound different, it might be because the melody is often (but not always) with the Alto; but I don't have the CDs, so I'd have to listen to them to be sure of that.  But what I learned at SSLM was the basic melody, and when I finally found a ROCOR parish and was able to sing with a choir, I realized that much of what I had learned was the Alto line.

          In Christ,
          Margaret Lark


          --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John Whiteford" wrote:
          >
          > Tone Tutor
          > For those who are unable to go to the Summer Liturgical School in
          > Jordanville, the Tone Tutor is an excellent set of CDs that will teach
          > you the 8 tones according to the common usage of the Russian Church, and
          > uses the methods taught at Jordanville. There are 10 CDs: one for each
          > of the 8 tones. One for "mid term" and "final" tests, and one for
          > refreshing your memory. This tone teaches each variation of the 8 tones:
          > the troparion, sticheron, sticheron refrains, prokimenon, and irmos
          > melodies. The program is completely audio based... you need only pop in
          > the first CD, and follow the instructions from there.
          >
          > This fills an important need. In the 90's there was a cassette tape
          > available, but it was not nearly as user friendly, and the translation
          > used for the text was not the most commonly used ones in ROCOR.
          >
          > Choir members who have not yet memorized the tones will greatly benefit
          > from this, and especially those who are thrust into the position of
          > manning the cliros, and have no one else to prompt them when a
          > particular tone is called for, and they have no one to get them started.
          > Many years ago, I was in that situation, and I used some cassette tapes
          > that were available, and worked on the tone of the week each week,
          > until I had them all down. But this is a much more thorough program. I
          > highly recommend it.
          >
          > It can be purchased by clicking here.
          >  
          > http://www.ocrb.org/products/tonetutor101

        • Chad W. Paul McBride
          Church Slavonic Is prettier I think. Chad W. Paul McBride c_mcbride7@yahoo.com What we do in life, Echoes in eternity Chad W. Paul McBride c_mcbride7@yahoo.com
          Message 4 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
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            Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
             

            Chad W. Paul McBride
            What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
            Chad W. Paul McBride
            What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
             
             
            -------Original Message-------
             
            From: Meg Lark
            Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
             
             

            On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:

             

            There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.


            Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.

            Meg Lark 

             
          • Fr. John Whiteford
            I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can t cook. English is
            Message 5 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
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              I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America, Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America, in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
               
              Presbyter John Whiteford
              St. Jonah Orthodox Church
              Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
              ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
              Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
              Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
              Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

              "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





              From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
              To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
              Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
              Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



               
              Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
               

              Chad W. Paul McBride
              What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
              Chad W. Paul McBride
              What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
               
               
              -------Original Message-------
               
              From: Meg Lark
              Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
              Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
               
               
              On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
               
              There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.

              Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.

              Meg Lark 
               




            • Meg Lark
              On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:46 AM, Chad W. Paul McBride ... It can be, but if you put just a little effort into English, it can be equally pretty (and OK, again
              Message 6 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
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                On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:46 AM, Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...> wrote:
                 

                 
                Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.


                It can be, but if you put just a little effort into English, it can be equally pretty (and OK, again sticking my neck out, my preference is for *liturgical* English, which is also more grammatically correct when addressing the Triune God).

                The main thing about any of our liturgical prayers is that they remain *prayers,* and not just an expression of our ethnic pride (and for the record, all appearances to the contrary, I do claim Russian ethnicity - my father was of Russian descent).  The very worst thing we could do would be to get sidetracked into the kind of thing that goes on in the West - dumbing down our Liturgies for the sake of Keeping the Youth.  Due to the geographical peculiarities of my locale, I've had a lot of exposure to various jurisdictions, and I can tell you that the most successful parishes, in *any* jurisdiction, are the most traditional parishes, with a strong emphasis on prayer.

                So yes, we need Liturgies to be in a language comprehensible to the parish, and if we have parishioners who aren't quite so comfortable with English, we should take pains to help them get comfortable with it - after all, they live here now.  But we should never stoop so low as to think we need to be Contemporary.  /shudder/

                In Christ,
                Meg
              • Elias G. Gorsky
                Dear Father John, In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod ]
                Message 7 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
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                  Dear Father John,

                   

                  In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.

                   

                  Our Lord Jesus Christ

                   

                  Vs

                   

                  Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill

                   

                  Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.

                   

                  How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?

                   

                  With love (sincerely),

                  p. Ilya Gorsky

                   


                  From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                  Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                  To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

                   

                   

                  I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.

                   

                  Presbyter John Whiteford
                  St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                  Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                  ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                  Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                  Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                  Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

                  "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                   

                   


                  From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                  To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                  Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                  Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

                   

                   

                   

                  Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.

                   

                  Chad W. Paul McBride

                  What we do in life, Echoes in eternity

                  Chad W. Paul McBride

                  What we do in life, Echoes in eternity

                   

                   

                  -------Original Message-------

                   

                  From: Meg Lark

                  Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41

                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

                   

                   

                  On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:

                   

                  There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.

                   

                  Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.

                   

                  Meg Lark 

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   

                • Fr. John Whiteford
                  The Greek word for a human lord , and God the Lord is the same. But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English
                  Message 8 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
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                    The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                    But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

                    There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

                    Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

                    Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                    Presbyter John Whiteford
                    St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                    Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                    ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                    Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                    Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                    Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

                    "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                    From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                    To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                    Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                    Dear Father John,
                     
                    In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
                     
                    Our Lord Jesus Christ
                     
                    Vs
                     
                    Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                     
                    Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                     
                    How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
                     
                    With love (sincerely),
                    p. Ilya Gorsky
                     

                    From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                    Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                    To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                     
                     
                    I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
                     
                    Presbyter John Whiteford
                    St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                    Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                    ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                    Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                    Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                    Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                    "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                     

                     

                    From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                    To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                    Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                    Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                     
                     
                     
                    Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                     
                    Chad W. Paul McBride
                    What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                    Chad W. Paul McBride
                    What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                     
                     
                    -------Original Message-------
                     
                    From: Meg Lark
                    Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                     
                     
                    On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
                     
                    There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                     
                    Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
                     
                    Meg Lark 
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     




                  • Mark Karahalis
                    That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than 70 different translations. The reasons are often
                    Message 9 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
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                      That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than  70 different translations. The reasons are often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.

                      On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                       

                      The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                      But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

                      There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

                      Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

                      Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                      Presbyter John Whiteford
                      St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                      Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                      ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                      Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                      Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                      Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

                      "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                      From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                      To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                      Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                      Dear Father John,
                       
                      In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
                       
                      Our Lord Jesus Christ
                       
                      Vs
                       
                      Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                       
                      Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                       
                      How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
                       
                      With love (sincerely),
                      p. Ilya Gorsky
                       

                      From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                      Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                      To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                       
                       
                      I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
                       
                      Presbyter John Whiteford
                      St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                      Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                      ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                      Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                      Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                      Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                      "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                       

                       

                      From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                      To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                      Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                      Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                       
                       
                       
                      Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                       
                      Chad W. Paul McBride
                      What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                      Chad W. Paul McBride
                      What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                       
                       
                      -------Original Message-------
                       
                      From: Meg Lark
                      Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                       
                       
                      On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
                       
                      There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                       
                      Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
                       
                      Meg Lark 
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       




                    • Fr. John Whiteford
                      Yes, it is too much to ask. The Apostles didn t ask the Greeks to learn Hebrew.   Presbyter John Whiteford St. Jonah Orthodox Church Parish Home Page:
                      Message 10 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
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                        Yes, it is too much to ask. The Apostles didn't ask the Greeks to learn Hebrew.
                         
                        Presbyter John Whiteford
                        St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                        Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                        ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                        Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                        Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                        Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

                        "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                        From: Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...>
                        To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 7:31 PM
                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                        That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than  70 different translations. The reasons are often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.
                        On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                         
                        The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                        But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

                        There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

                        Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

                        Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                        Presbyter John Whiteford
                        St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                        Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                        ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                        Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                        Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                        Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                        "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                        From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                        To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                        Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                        Dear Father John,
                         
                        In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
                         
                        Our Lord Jesus Christ
                         
                        Vs
                         
                        Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                         
                        Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                         
                        How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
                         
                        With love (sincerely),
                        p. Ilya Gorsky
                         

                        From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                        Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                        To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                         
                         
                        I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
                         
                        Presbyter John Whiteford
                        St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                        Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                        ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                        Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                        Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                        Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                        "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                         

                         

                        From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                        To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                        Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                        Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                         
                         
                         
                        Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                         
                        Chad W. Paul McBride
                        What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                        Chad W. Paul McBride
                        What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                         
                         
                        -------Original Message-------
                         
                        From: Meg Lark
                        Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                         
                         
                        On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
                         
                        There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                         
                        Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
                         
                        Meg Lark 
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         








                      • Mark Karahalis
                        No, Alexander the Great did. By the time of the birthof Christ, it is estimated that as many as 30% of Greeks became Jewish. On Feb 18, 2013 8:47 PM, Fr. John
                        Message 11 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment

                          No, Alexander the Great did. By the time of the birthof Christ, it is estimated that as many as 30% of Greeks became Jewish.

                          On Feb 18, 2013 8:47 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                           

                          Yes, it is too much to ask. The Apostles didn't ask the Greeks to learn Hebrew.
                           
                          Presbyter John Whiteford
                          St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                          Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                          ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                          Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                          Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                          Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

                          "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                          From: Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...>
                          To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 7:31 PM
                          Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                          That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than  70 different translations. The reasons are often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.
                          On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                           
                          The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                          But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

                          There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

                          Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

                          Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                          Presbyter John Whiteford
                          St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                          Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                          ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                          Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                          Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                          Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                          "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                          From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                          To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                          Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                          Dear Father John,
                           
                          In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
                           
                          Our Lord Jesus Christ
                           
                          Vs
                           
                          Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                           
                          Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                           
                          How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
                           
                          With love (sincerely),
                          p. Ilya Gorsky
                           

                          From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                          Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                          To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                           
                           
                          I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
                           
                          Presbyter John Whiteford
                          St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                          Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                          ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                          Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                          Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                          Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                          "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                           

                           

                          From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                          To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                          Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                          Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                          Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                           
                           
                           
                          Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                           
                          Chad W. Paul McBride
                          What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                          Chad W. Paul McBride
                          What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                           
                           
                          -------Original Message-------
                           
                          From: Meg Lark
                          Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                          Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                           
                           
                          On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
                           
                          There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                           
                          Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
                           
                          Meg Lark 
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           








                        • Mark Karahalis
                          If it were not for Alexander s interest in a monotheistic religion, the Jewish religion would have died out. On Feb 18, 2013 8:47 PM, Fr. John Whiteford
                          Message 12 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment

                            If it were not for Alexander's interest in a monotheistic religion, the Jewish religion would have died out.

                            On Feb 18, 2013 8:47 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                             

                            Yes, it is too much to ask. The Apostles didn't ask the Greeks to learn Hebrew.
                             
                            Presbyter John Whiteford
                            St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                            Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                            ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                            Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                            Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                            Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

                            "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                            From: Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...>
                            To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 7:31 PM
                            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                            That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than  70 different translations. The reasons are often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.
                            On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                             
                            The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                            But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

                            There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

                            Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

                            Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                            Presbyter John Whiteford
                            St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                            Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                            ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                            Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                            Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                            Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                            "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                            From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                            To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                            Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                            Dear Father John,
                             
                            In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
                             
                            Our Lord Jesus Christ
                             
                            Vs
                             
                            Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                             
                            Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                             
                            How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
                             
                            With love (sincerely),
                            p. Ilya Gorsky
                             

                            From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                            Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                            To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                             
                             
                            I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
                             
                            Presbyter John Whiteford
                            St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                            Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                            ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                            Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                            Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                            Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                            "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                             

                             

                            From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                            To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                            Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                            Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                             
                             
                             
                            Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                             
                            Chad W. Paul McBride
                            What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                            Chad W. Paul McBride
                            What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                             
                             
                            -------Original Message-------
                             
                            From: Meg Lark
                            Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                             
                             
                            On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
                             
                            There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                             
                            Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
                             
                            Meg Lark 
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             








                          • frjohnwhiteford
                            Says who? And the Apostles still spoke Hebrew (and/or Aramaic), and yet did not ask the Greek to learn Hebrew. Why should the Greeks ask Americans to learn
                            Message 13 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Says who?

                              And the Apostles still spoke Hebrew (and/or Aramaic), and yet did not ask the Greek to learn Hebrew. Why should the Greeks ask Americans to learn Greek?

                              -Fr. John

                              --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > No, Alexander the Great did. By the time of the birthof Christ, it is
                              > estimated that as many as 30% of Greeks became Jewish.
                              > On Feb 18, 2013 8:47 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...>
                              > wrote:
                              >
                              > > **
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Yes, it is too much to ask. The Apostles didn't ask the Greeks to learn
                              > > Hebrew.
                              > >
                              > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                              > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                              > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                              > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                              > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                              > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                              > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford
                              > > <http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20>
                              > >
                              > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                              > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John
                              > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ------------------------------
                              > > *From:* Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...>
                              > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                              > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 7:31 PM
                              > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In
                              > > English, there are more than 70 different translations. The reasons are
                              > > often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes
                              > > of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn
                              > > Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for
                              > > christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.
                              > > On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...>
                              > > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > **
                              > >
                              > > The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.
                              > >
                              > > But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is
                              > > inferior to English properly understood.
                              > >
                              > > There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no
                              > > one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical
                              > > language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one
                              > > understands it, does it matter?
                              > >
                              > > Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do
                              > > not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic,
                              > > and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu,
                              > > because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of
                              > > syllables without any meaning.
                              > >
                              > > Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian
                              > > well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do
                              > > English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for
                              > > the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true
                              > > for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert
                              > > typically is.
                              > >
                              > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                              > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                              > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                              > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                              > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                              > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                              > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20
                              > >
                              > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                              > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John
                              > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ------------------------------
                              > > *From:* Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                              > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                              > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                              > > *Subject:* RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Dear Father John,
                              > >
                              > > In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable
                              > > preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod'] labels
                              > > Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch's
                              > > construct, "gospodin", clearly refers to him as a man.
                              > >
                              > > Our Lord Jesus Christ
                              > >
                              > > Vs
                              > >
                              > > Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                              > >
                              > > Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the
                              > > patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                              > >
                              > > How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried
                              > > through?
                              > >
                              > > With love (sincerely),
                              > > p. Ilya Gorsky
                              > >
                              > > ------------------------------
                              > > *From:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
                              > > orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Fr. John Whiteford
                              > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                              > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                              > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference
                              > > between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't
                              > > cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking
                              > > about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for
                              > > business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman
                              > > too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the
                              > > practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are
                              > > unable to understand it very well.
                              > >
                              > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                              > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                              > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                              > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                              > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                              > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                              > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20
                              > >
                              > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                              > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John
                              > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                              > >
                              > > * *
                              > >
                              > > ------------------------------
                              > > *From:* Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                              > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                              > > *Cc:* Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                              > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                              > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                              > >
                              > > Chad W. Paul McBride
                              > > c_mcbride7@...
                              > > What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                              > > Chad W. Paul McBride
                              > > c_mcbride7@...
                              > > What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > *-------Original Message-------*
                              > >
                              > > *From:* Meg Lark <woolfolk3@...>
                              > > *Date:* 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                              > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                              > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <
                              > > savante914@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                              > >
                              > > Sticking my neck out here, but... That's actually why I prefer Russian
                              > > music to Greek music. Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's
                              > > really written only for Greek words. Trying to alter it to fit English
                              > > words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that
                              > > sound just plain bizarre in English. Whereas, Russian music has a
                              > > wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic
                              > > with no problem.
                              > >
                              > > Meg Lark
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • frjohnwhiteford
                              Where do you get that? I believe that God is on the throne, and so don t believe that the survival of the Truth Faith depended on the whims of Alexander the
                              Message 14 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Where do you get that?

                                I believe that God is on the throne, and so don't believe that the survival of the Truth Faith depended on the whims of Alexander the Great.

                                -Fr. John Whiteford


                                --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > If it were not for Alexander's interest in a monotheistic religion, the
                                > Jewish religion would have died out.
                                > On Feb 18, 2013 8:47 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...>
                                > wrote:
                                >
                                > > **
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Yes, it is too much to ask. The Apostles didn't ask the Greeks to learn
                                > > Hebrew.
                                > >
                                > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                                > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford
                                > > <http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20>
                                > >
                                > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                                > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John
                                > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ------------------------------
                                > > *From:* Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...>
                                > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 7:31 PM
                                > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In
                                > > English, there are more than 70 different translations. The reasons are
                                > > often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes
                                > > of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn
                                > > Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for
                                > > christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.
                                > > On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...>
                                > > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > **
                                > >
                                > > The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.
                                > >
                                > > But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is
                                > > inferior to English properly understood.
                                > >
                                > > There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no
                                > > one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical
                                > > language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one
                                > > understands it, does it matter?
                                > >
                                > > Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do
                                > > not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic,
                                > > and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu,
                                > > because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of
                                > > syllables without any meaning.
                                > >
                                > > Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian
                                > > well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do
                                > > English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for
                                > > the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true
                                > > for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert
                                > > typically is.
                                > >
                                > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                                > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20
                                > >
                                > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                                > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John
                                > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ------------------------------
                                > > *From:* Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                                > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                                > > *Subject:* RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Dear Father John,
                                > >
                                > > In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable
                                > > preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod'] labels
                                > > Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch's
                                > > construct, "gospodin", clearly refers to him as a man.
                                > >
                                > > Our Lord Jesus Christ
                                > >
                                > > Vs
                                > >
                                > > Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                                > >
                                > > Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the
                                > > patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                                > >
                                > > How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried
                                > > through?
                                > >
                                > > With love (sincerely),
                                > > p. Ilya Gorsky
                                > >
                                > > ------------------------------
                                > > *From:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
                                > > orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Fr. John Whiteford
                                > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                                > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference
                                > > between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't
                                > > cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking
                                > > about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for
                                > > business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman
                                > > too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the
                                > > practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are
                                > > unable to understand it very well.
                                > >
                                > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                                > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20
                                > >
                                > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                                > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John
                                > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                                > >
                                > > * *
                                > >
                                > > ------------------------------
                                > > *From:* Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                > > *Cc:* Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                                > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                                > >
                                > > Chad W. Paul McBride
                                > > c_mcbride7@...
                                > > What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                > > Chad W. Paul McBride
                                > > c_mcbride7@...
                                > > What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > *-------Original Message-------*
                                > >
                                > > *From:* Meg Lark <woolfolk3@...>
                                > > *Date:* 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                                > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <
                                > > savante914@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                                > >
                                > > Sticking my neck out here, but... That's actually why I prefer Russian
                                > > music to Greek music. Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's
                                > > really written only for Greek words. Trying to alter it to fit English
                                > > words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that
                                > > sound just plain bizarre in English. Whereas, Russian music has a
                                > > wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic
                                > > with no problem.
                                > >
                                > > Meg Lark
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Mark Karahalis
                                It is history. Ask most any rabbi. I am sure you could see it on the internet. Ill see if wiki has it with refferences for you. On Feb 18, 2013 9:00 PM,
                                Message 15 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  It is history. Ask most any rabbi. I am sure you could see it on the internet. Ill see if wiki has it with refferences for you.

                                  On Feb 18, 2013 9:00 PM, "frjohnwhiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  Where do you get that?

                                  I believe that God is on the throne, and so don't believe that the survival of the Truth Faith depended on the whims of Alexander the Great.

                                  -Fr. John Whiteford

                                  --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Mark Karahalis wrote:
                                  >
                                  > If it were not for Alexander's interest in a monotheistic religion, the
                                  > Jewish religion would have died out.
                                  > On Feb 18, 2013 8:47 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford"
                                  > wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > **
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Yes, it is too much to ask. The Apostles didn't ask the Greeks to learn
                                  > > Hebrew.
                                  > >
                                  > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                                  > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                  > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                  > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                  > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                  > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                  > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford
                                  > > http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20>
                                  > >
                                  > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                                  > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John
                                  > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ------------------------------
                                  > > *From:* Mark Karahalis
                                  > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 7:31 PM
                                  > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In
                                  > > English, there are more than 70 different translations. The reasons are
                                  > > often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes
                                  > > of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn
                                  > > Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for
                                  > > christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.
                                  > > On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford"
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > **
                                  > >
                                  > > The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.
                                  > >
                                  > > But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is
                                  > > inferior to English properly understood.
                                  > >
                                  > > There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no
                                  > > one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical
                                  > > language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one
                                  > > understands it, does it matter?
                                  > >
                                  > > Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do
                                  > > not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic,
                                  > > and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu,
                                  > > because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of
                                  > > syllables without any meaning.
                                  > >
                                  > > Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian
                                  > > well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do
                                  > > English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for
                                  > > the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true
                                  > > for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert
                                  > > typically is.
                                  > >
                                  > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                                  > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                  > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                  > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                  > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                  > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                  > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20
                                  > >
                                  > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                                  > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John
                                  > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ------------------------------
                                  > > *From:* Elias G. Gorsky
                                  > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                                  > > *Subject:* RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Dear Father John,
                                  > >
                                  > > In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable
                                  > > preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod'] labels
                                  > > Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch's
                                  > > construct, "gospodin", clearly refers to him as a man.
                                  > >
                                  > > Our Lord Jesus Christ
                                  > >
                                  > > Vs
                                  > >
                                  > > Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                                  > >
                                  > > Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the
                                  > > patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                                  > >
                                  > > How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried
                                  > > through?
                                  > >
                                  > > With love (sincerely),
                                  > > p. Ilya Gorsky
                                  > >
                                  > > ------------------------------
                                  > > *From:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
                                  > > orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Fr. John Whiteford
                                  > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                                  > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference
                                  > > between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't
                                  > > cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking
                                  > > about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for
                                  > > business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman
                                  > > too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the
                                  > > practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are
                                  > > unable to understand it very well.
                                  > >
                                  > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                                  > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                  > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                  > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                  > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                  > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                  > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20
                                  > >
                                  > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                                  > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John
                                  > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                                  > >
                                  > > * *
                                  > >
                                  > > ------------------------------
                                  > > *From:* Chad W. Paul McBride
                                  > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > *Cc:* Chad W. Paul McBride
                                  > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                                  > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                                  > >
                                  > > Chad W. Paul McBride
                                  > > c_mcbride7@...
                                  > > What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                  > > Chad W. Paul McBride
                                  > > c_mcbride7@...
                                  > > What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > *-------Original Message-------*
                                  > >
                                  > > *From:* Meg Lark
                                  > > *Date:* 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                                  > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <
                                  > > savante914@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                                  > >
                                  > > Sticking my neck out here, but... That's actually why I prefer Russian
                                  > > music to Greek music. Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's
                                  > > really written only for Greek words. Trying to alter it to fit English
                                  > > words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that
                                  > > sound just plain bizarre in English. Whereas, Russian music has a
                                  > > wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic
                                  > > with no problem.
                                  > >
                                  > > Meg Lark
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >

                                • frjohnwhiteford
                                  No, it is not history. If you want to argue to the contrary, you will have to present some references to actual historical documents, not wikipedia, but that
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    No, it is not history. If you want to argue to the contrary, you will have to present some references to actual historical documents, not wikipedia, but that still would prove that God was off the throne, and Alexander the Great was on it.

                                    --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > It is history. Ask most any rabbi. I am sure you could see it on the
                                    > internet. Ill see if wiki has it with refferences for you.
                                    > On Feb 18, 2013 9:00 PM, "frjohnwhiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > **
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Where do you get that?
                                    > >
                                    > > I believe that God is on the throne, and so don't believe that the
                                    > > survival of the Truth Faith depended on the whims of Alexander the Great.
                                    > >
                                    > > -Fr. John Whiteford
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Mark Karahalis wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > If it were not for Alexander's interest in a monotheistic religion, the
                                    > > > Jewish religion would have died out.
                                    > > > On Feb 18, 2013 8:47 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford"
                                    > > > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > **
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Yes, it is too much to ask. The Apostles didn't ask the Greeks to learn
                                    > > > > Hebrew.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                                    > > > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                    > > > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                    > > > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                    > > > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                    > > > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                    > > > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford
                                    > > > > http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20>
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                                    > > > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John
                                    > > > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ------------------------------
                                    > > > > *From:* Mark Karahalis
                                    > > > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 7:31 PM
                                    > > > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible
                                    > > translations. In
                                    > > > > English, there are more than 70 different translations. The reasons are
                                    > > > > often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the
                                    > > causes
                                    > > > > of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to
                                    > > learn
                                    > > > > Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for
                                    > > > > christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.
                                    > > > > On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford"
                                    > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > **
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is
                                    > > > > inferior to English properly understood.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no
                                    > > > > one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical
                                    > > > > language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one
                                    > > > > understands it, does it matter?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who
                                    > > do
                                    > > > > not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper
                                    > > Slavonic,
                                    > > > > and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in
                                    > > Zulu,
                                    > > > > because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of
                                    > > > > syllables without any meaning.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian
                                    > > > > well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do
                                    > > > > English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English
                                    > > for
                                    > > > > the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is
                                    > > true
                                    > > > > for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian
                                    > > convert
                                    > > > > typically is.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                                    > > > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                    > > > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                    > > > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                    > > > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                    > > > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                    > > > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                                    > > > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John
                                    > > > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ------------------------------
                                    > > > > *From:* Elias G. Gorsky
                                    > > > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                                    > > > > *Subject:* RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Dear Father John,
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give
                                    > > insurmountable
                                    > > > > preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod']
                                    > > labels
                                    > > > > Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch's
                                    > > > > construct, "gospodin", clearly refers to him as a man.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Our Lord Jesus Christ
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Vs
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the
                                    > > > > patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is
                                    > > carried
                                    > > > > through?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > With love (sincerely),
                                    > > > > p. Ilya Gorsky
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ------------------------------
                                    > > > > *From:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
                                    > > > > orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Fr. John Whiteford
                                    > > > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                                    > > > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference
                                    > > > > between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who
                                    > > can't
                                    > > > > cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was
                                    > > talking
                                    > > > > about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form)
                                    > > for
                                    > > > > business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful
                                    > > woman
                                    > > > > too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the
                                    > > > > practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who
                                    > > are
                                    > > > > unable to understand it very well.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                                    > > > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                    > > > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                    > > > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                    > > > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                    > > > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                    > > > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go
                                    > > > > into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St.
                                    > > John
                                    > > > > Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > * *
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ------------------------------
                                    > > > > *From:* Chad W. Paul McBride
                                    > > > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > > *Cc:* Chad W. Paul McBride
                                    > > > > *Sent:* Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                                    > > > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Chad W. Paul McBride
                                    > > > > c_mcbride7@
                                    > > > > What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                    > > > > Chad W. Paul McBride
                                    > > > > c_mcbride7@
                                    > > > > What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > *-------Original Message-------*
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > *From:* Meg Lark
                                    > > > > *Date:* 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                                    > > > > *To:* orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > > *Subject:* Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@ <
                                    > > > > savante914@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Sticking my neck out here, but... That's actually why I prefer Russian
                                    > > > > music to Greek music. Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's
                                    > > > > really written only for Greek words. Trying to alter it to fit English
                                    > > > > words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions
                                    > > that
                                    > > > > sound just plain bizarre in English. Whereas, Russian music has a
                                    > > > > wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church
                                    > > Slavonic
                                    > > > > with no problem.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Meg Lark
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Dale Dickerson
                                    English translations are ok and can communication the needed message. However, wishing that people could understand the Scriptures  in the original language
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
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                                      English translations are ok and can communication the needed message. However, wishing that people could understand the Scriptures  in the original language is not really asking to much. However it  might be an unreachable goal or wish.

                                      Dale Dickerson



                                      From: Fr. John Whiteford <frjohnwhiteford@...>
                                      To: "orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com" <orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 8:47 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

                                       
                                      Yes, it is too much to ask. The Apostles didn't ask the Greeks to learn Hebrew.
                                       
                                      Presbyter John Whiteford
                                      St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                      Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                      ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                      Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                      Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                      Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                                      "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                                      From: Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...>
                                      To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 7:31 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                                      That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than  70 different translations. The reasons are often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.
                                      On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                                       
                                      The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                                      But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

                                      There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

                                      Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

                                      Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                                      Presbyter John Whiteford
                                      St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                      Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                      ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                      Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                      Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                      Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                                      "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                                      From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                                      To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                                      Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                                      Dear Father John,
                                       
                                      In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
                                       
                                      Our Lord Jesus Christ
                                       
                                      Vs
                                       
                                      Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                                       
                                      Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                                       
                                      How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
                                       
                                      With love (sincerely),
                                      p. Ilya Gorsky
                                       

                                      From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                                      Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                                      To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                       
                                       
                                      I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
                                       
                                      Presbyter John Whiteford
                                      St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                      Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                      ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                      Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                      Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                      Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                                      "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                                       

                                       

                                      From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                      To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                      Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                      Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                      Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                                       
                                      Chad W. Paul McBride
                                      What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                      Chad W. Paul McBride
                                      What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                       
                                       
                                      -------Original Message-------
                                       
                                      From: Meg Lark
                                      Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                       
                                       
                                      On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
                                       
                                      There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                                       
                                      Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
                                       
                                      Meg Lark 
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       










                                    • Elias G. Gorsky
                                      Re: The Greek word for a human lord , and God the Lord is the same. That just proves that Slavonic is superior to Greek, too. Re: Even to Russians who have
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
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                                        Re:

                                         

                                        The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                                         

                                        That just proves that Slavonic is superior to Greek, too.

                                         

                                         

                                        Re:

                                         

                                        Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                                         

                                        You are absolutely correct, Father John! In no way, need English speakers learn Slavonic, much less Russian. If there is a single person in the church that would not understand Russian, my sermon is in English. Our services are in both languages.

                                         

                                        p. Ilya Gorsky


                                        From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                                        Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 8:16 PM
                                        To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

                                         

                                         

                                        The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                                         

                                        But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

                                         

                                        There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

                                         

                                        Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

                                         

                                        Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                                         

                                        Presbyter John Whiteford
                                        St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                        Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                        ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                        Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                        Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                        Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

                                        "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                                         

                                         


                                        From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                                        To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                                        Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

                                         

                                         

                                        Dear Father John,

                                         

                                        In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.

                                         

                                        Our Lord Jesus Christ

                                         

                                        Vs

                                         

                                        Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill

                                         

                                        Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.

                                         

                                        How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?

                                         

                                        With love (sincerely),

                                        p. Ilya Gorsky

                                         


                                        From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                                        Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                                        To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

                                         

                                         

                                        I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.

                                         

                                        Presbyter John Whiteford
                                        St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                        Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                        ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                        Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                        Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                        Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                                        "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                                         

                                         


                                        From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                        To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                        Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                        Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                        Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.

                                         

                                        Chad W. Paul McBride

                                        What we do in life, Echoes in eternity

                                        Chad W. Paul McBride

                                        What we do in life, Echoes in eternity

                                         

                                         

                                        -------Original Message-------

                                         

                                        From: Meg Lark

                                        Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41

                                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

                                         

                                         

                                        On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:

                                         

                                        There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.

                                         

                                        Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.

                                         

                                        Meg Lark 

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                      • hobbitofny
                                        To all who answered my original question, I thank you. As for the way it lead to the exchanges on the topic that followed, I ask your forgiveness. Dale
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Feb 18, 2013
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                                          To all who answered my original question, I thank you. As for the way it lead to the exchanges on the topic that followed, I ask your forgiveness.

                                          Dale Dickerson

                                          --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "hobbitofny" <hobbitofny@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > What is the difference between the tones used for English and those for Church Slavonic?
                                          >
                                          > Dale Dickerson
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Tone Tutor
                                          > > For those who are unable to go to the Summer Liturgical School in
                                          > > Jordanville, the Tone Tutor is an excellent set of CDs that will teach
                                          > > you the 8 tones according to the common usage of the Russian Church, and
                                          > > uses the methods taught at Jordanville. There are 10 CDs: one for each
                                          > > of the 8 tones. One for "mid term" and "final" tests, and one for
                                          > > refreshing your memory. This tone teaches each variation of the 8 tones:
                                          > > the troparion, sticheron, sticheron refrains, prokimenon, and irmos
                                          > > melodies. The program is completely audio based... you need only pop in
                                          > > the first CD, and follow the instructions from there.
                                          > >
                                          > > This fills an important need. In the 90's there was a cassette tape
                                          > > available, but it was not nearly as user friendly, and the translation
                                          > > used for the text was not the most commonly used ones in ROCOR.
                                          > >
                                          > > Choir members who have not yet memorized the tones will greatly benefit
                                          > > from this, and especially those who are thrust into the position of
                                          > > manning the cliros, and have no one else to prompt them when a
                                          > > particular tone is called for, and they have no one to get them started.
                                          > > Many years ago, I was in that situation, and I used some cassette tapes
                                          > > that were available, and worked on the tone of the week each week,
                                          > > until I had them all down. But this is a much more thorough program. I
                                          > > highly recommend it.
                                          > >
                                          > > It can be purchased by clicking here.
                                          > >  
                                          > > http://www.ocrb.org/products/tonetutor101
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Presbyter John Whiteford
                                          > > St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                          > > Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                          > > ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                          > > Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                          > > Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                          > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford
                                          > > "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • Stephen/Στέφανος
                                          Because, in correct English, lord and father, should NEVER be capitalized when referring to the Patriarch…. Unless it were the first word of a sentence….
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Feb 19, 2013
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                                            Because, in correct English, "lord and father, should NEVER be capitalized when referring to the Patriarch…. Unless it were the first word of a sentence…. 

                                            Just like Greek…. Κύριος for our Lord Christ…. and κύριος when referring to a human.  

                                            Stephanos Upton 

                                            Sent from my iPhone, Stephen/Στέφανος 

                                            On Feb 18, 2013, at 11:49, "Elias G. Gorsky" <egorsky@...> wrote:

                                             

                                            Dear Father John,

                                             

                                            In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.

                                             

                                            Our Lord Jesus Christ

                                             

                                            Vs

                                             

                                            Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill

                                             

                                            Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.

                                             

                                            How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?

                                             

                                            With love (sincerely),

                                            p. Ilya Gorsky

                                             


                                            From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                                            Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                                            To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

                                             

                                             

                                            I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.

                                             

                                            Presbyter John Whiteford
                                            St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                            Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                            ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                            Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                            Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                            Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

                                            "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                                             

                                             


                                            From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                            To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                            Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                            Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

                                             

                                             

                                             

                                            Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.

                                             

                                            Chad W. Paul McBride

                                            What we do in life, Echoes in eternity

                                            Chad W. Paul McBride

                                            What we do in life, Echoes in eternity

                                             

                                             

                                            -------Original Message-------

                                             

                                            From: Meg Lark

                                            Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41

                                            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor

                                             

                                             

                                            On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:

                                             

                                            There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.

                                             

                                            Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.

                                             

                                            Meg Lark 

                                             

                                             

                                             

                                             

                                             

                                          • Meg Lark
                                            ... That s actually my fault, Dale, and I ask forgiveness as well. Still, I have greatly enjoyed the exchanges on the subject of languages and their
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Feb 19, 2013
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 9:40 PM, hobbitofny <hobbitofny@...> wrote:
                                               


                                              To all who answered my original question, I thank you. As for the way it lead to the exchanges on the topic that followed, I ask your forgiveness.

                                              Dale Dickerson


                                              That's actually my fault, Dale, and I ask forgiveness as well.  Still, I have greatly enjoyed the exchanges on the subject of languages and their relationship to music, and have learned a few things along the way, so it hasn't been a total loss.

                                              For Mark Karahalis:  Not everyone is linguistically inclined, but every Christian should be able to read and understand both the Bible and the Divine Liturgy that contains so much of it.  This is why we have Biblical scholars to study these things, and the meaning of the words.  The Orthodox Study Bible may not be perfect, but it is a Bible translated by Orthodox Christians, and all the priests I know use only it or the King James Bible.

                                              Stephanos - we think alike on the subject of "You-Who" English, and I am sure I would feel the same about liturgical vs. modern Greek, or Church Slavonic vs. modern Russian (though I must say, having taken Russian courses in college, that I didn't have *too* much of a problem with vocabulary.  A Russian priest told me that the problem for most Russians is the grammar - Church Slavonic follows Greek grammar, he said, and that's what confuses Russians).

                                              In Christ, again asking everyone's forgiveness, though with thanks for the exchange,

                                              Meg Lark
                                            • Chad W. Paul McBride
                                              If you want Greek go to a Greek church. Chad W. Paul McBride c_mcbride7@yahoo.com What we do in life, Echoes in eternity ... From: Mark Karahalis Date:
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Feb 20, 2013
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                If you want Greek go to a Greek church.  
                                                 
                                                 
                                                Chad W. Paul McBride
                                                What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                 
                                                Date: 2/18/2013 19:46:19
                                                Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                                 
                                                 

                                                That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than  70 different translations. The reasons are often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.

                                                On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                                                 

                                                The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                                                But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

                                                There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

                                                Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

                                                Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                                                Presbyter John Whiteford
                                                St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                                Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                                ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                                Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                                Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                                Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

                                                "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                                                From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                                                To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                                                Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                                                Dear Father John,
                                                 
                                                In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
                                                 
                                                Our Lord Jesus Christ
                                                 
                                                Vs
                                                 
                                                Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                                                 
                                                Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                                                 
                                                How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
                                                 
                                                With love (sincerely),
                                                p. Ilya Gorsky
                                                 

                                                From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                                                Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                                                To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                                 
                                                 
                                                I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
                                                 
                                                Presbyter John Whiteford
                                                St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                                Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                                ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                                Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                                Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                                Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                                                "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                                To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                                Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                                Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                                                Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                                                 
                                                Chad W. Paul McBride
                                                What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                                Chad W. Paul McBride
                                                What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                                 
                                                 
                                                -------Original Message-------
                                                 
                                                From: Meg Lark
                                                Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                                                Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                                 
                                                 
                                                On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
                                                 
                                                There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                                                 
                                                Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
                                                 
                                                Meg Lark 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 




                                                 
                                              • Chad W. Paul McBride
                                                I completely agree. Chad W. Paul McBride c_mcbride7@yahoo.com What we do in life, Echoes in eternity ... From: Meg Lark Date: 2/18/2013 10:34:55 To:
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Feb 20, 2013
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  I completely agree.
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  Chad W. Paul McBride
                                                  What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                                  -------Original Message-------
                                                   
                                                  From: Meg Lark
                                                  Date: 2/18/2013 10:34:55
                                                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                                   
                                                   

                                                  On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:46 AM, Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...> wrote:

                                                   

                                                   
                                                  Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.


                                                  It can be, but if you put just a little effort into English, it can be equally pretty (and OK, again sticking my neck out, my preference is for *liturgical* English, which is also more grammatically correct when addressing the Triune God).

                                                  The main thing about any of our liturgical prayers is that they remain *prayers,* and not just an expression of our ethnic pride (and for the record, all appearances to the contrary, I do claim Russian ethnicity - my father was of Russian descent).  The very worst thing we could do would be to get sidetracked into the kind of thing that goes on in the West - dumbing down our Liturgies for the sake of Keeping the Youth.  Due to the geographical peculiarities of my locale, I've had a lot of exposure to various jurisdictions, and I can tell you that the most successful parishes, in *any* jurisdiction, are the most traditional parishes, with a strong emphasis on prayer.

                                                  So yes, we need Liturgies to be in a language comprehensible to the parish, and if we have parishioners who aren't quite so comfortable with English, we should take pains to help them get comfortable with it - after all, they live here now.  But we should never stoop so low as to think we need to be Contemporary.  /shudder/

                                                  In Christ,
                                                  Meg

                                                   
                                                • Mark Karahalis
                                                  the point is aboutdeveloping wisdom. Truth + Knowledge = Wisdom On Feb 20, 2013 7:08 AM, Chad W. Paul McBride ... the point is
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Feb 20, 2013
                                                  • 0 Attachment

                                                    the point is aboutdeveloping wisdom.

                                                    Truth + Knowledge = Wisdom

                                                    On Feb 20, 2013 7:08 AM, "Chad W. Paul McBride" <c_mcbride7@...> wrote:
                                                     

                                                    If you want Greek go to a Greek church.  
                                                     
                                                     
                                                    Chad W. Paul McBride
                                                    What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                     
                                                    Date: 2/18/2013 19:46:19
                                                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                                     
                                                     

                                                    That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than  70 different translations. The reasons are often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.

                                                    On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                                                     

                                                    The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                                                    But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

                                                    There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

                                                    Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

                                                    Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                                                    Presbyter John Whiteford
                                                    St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                                    Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                                    ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                                    Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                                    Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                                    Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

                                                    "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                                                    From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                                                    To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                                                    Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                                                    Dear Father John,
                                                     
                                                    In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
                                                     
                                                    Our Lord Jesus Christ
                                                     
                                                    Vs
                                                     
                                                    Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                                                     
                                                    Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                                                     
                                                    How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
                                                     
                                                    With love (sincerely),
                                                    p. Ilya Gorsky
                                                     

                                                    From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                                                    Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                                                    To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                                     
                                                     
                                                    I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
                                                     
                                                    Presbyter John Whiteford
                                                    St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                                    Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                                    ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                                    Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                                    Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                                    Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                                                    "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                                    To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                                    Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                                                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                                     
                                                     
                                                     
                                                    Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                                                     
                                                    Chad W. Paul McBride
                                                    What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                                    Chad W. Paul McBride
                                                    What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                                     
                                                     
                                                    -------Original Message-------
                                                     
                                                    From: Meg Lark
                                                    Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                                                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                                     
                                                     
                                                    On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
                                                     
                                                    There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                                                     
                                                    Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
                                                     
                                                    Meg Lark 
                                                     
                                                     
                                                     
                                                     
                                                     




                                                     
                                                  • John Billo
                                                    No, the point is about acquiring the Holy Spirit. That s pretty hard to do when clergy are speaking in foreign tongues. Reference the examples of Sy Cyril and
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Feb 20, 2013
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      No, the point is about acquiring the Holy Spirit. 
                                                       
                                                      That's pretty hard to do when clergy are speaking in foreign tongues.  Reference the examples of Sy Cyril and Methodius, enlighteners of the Slavs.  They taught in the native language.  The holy saints, Tikhon, Innocent, and Jacob of Alaska, all taught in the native language.  So too, do our missionary people of today in Albania, Africa, and Asia seek to learn the native language so they can teach the faith in the native tongue.
                                                       
                                                      Not everyone has the time, energy, and aptitude in today's environment to learn a foreign language after working 40-50 hours a week and tending to their families' needs.
                                                       
                                                      It is easier to correct the poor translations then ask the thousands of Orthodox Christians in  America to learn the greek text.
                                                       
                                                      In ICXC,
                                                      John Billo

                                                      On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 6:23 AM, Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...> wrote:
                                                       

                                                      the point is aboutdeveloping wisdom.

                                                      Truth + Knowledge = Wisdom

                                                      On Feb 20, 2013 7:08 AM, "Chad W. Paul McBride" <c_mcbride7@...> wrote:
                                                       

                                                      If you want Greek go to a Greek church.  
                                                       
                                                       
                                                      Chad W. Paul McBride
                                                      What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                       
                                                      Date: 2/18/2013 19:46:19
                                                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                                       
                                                       

                                                      That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than  70 different translations. The reasons are often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.

                                                      On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                                                       

                                                      The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                                                      But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

                                                      There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

                                                      Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

                                                      Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                                                      Presbyter John Whiteford
                                                      St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                                      Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                                      ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                                      Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                                      Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                                      Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

                                                      "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                                                      From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                                                      To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                                                      Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                                                      Dear Father John,
                                                       
                                                      In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
                                                       
                                                      Our Lord Jesus Christ
                                                       
                                                      Vs
                                                       
                                                      Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                                                       
                                                      Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                                                       
                                                      How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
                                                       
                                                      With love (sincerely),
                                                      p. Ilya Gorsky
                                                       

                                                      From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                                                      Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                                                      To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                                       
                                                       
                                                      I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
                                                       
                                                      Presbyter John Whiteford
                                                      St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                                      Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                                      ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                                      Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                                      Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                                      Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                                                      "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                                      To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                                      Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                                                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                                       
                                                       
                                                       
                                                      Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                                                       
                                                      Chad W. Paul McBride
                                                      What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                                      Chad W. Paul McBride
                                                      What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                                       
                                                       
                                                      -------Original Message-------
                                                       
                                                      From: Meg Lark
                                                      Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                                                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                                       
                                                       
                                                      On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
                                                       
                                                      There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                                                       
                                                      Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
                                                       
                                                      Meg Lark 
                                                       
                                                       
                                                       
                                                       
                                                       




                                                       


                                                    • Mark Karahalis
                                                      Trust has always been an issue. To paraphrase king james. -- beware of the yeast of the sadjuces and the pharoeeses. If as many people learn hellenist greek it
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Feb 20, 2013
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                                                        Trust has always been an issue. To paraphrase king james. -- beware of the yeast of the sadjuces and the pharoeeses.
                                                        If as many people learn hellenist greek it keeps our theologians honest.
                                                        During the time of St. Gregory the Theologian every educated person (and most were!) were overjoyed at his interpretation. Why? Because of this equation ---- Knowledge + Truth = Wisdom. This equation is the basis for all philosophy.

                                                        By God's Grace. Nun Evlogimeno. Славо Бого!

                                                        Mark Karahalis

                                                        On Feb 20, 2013 9:38 AM, "John Billo" <johnbillo@...> wrote:
                                                         

                                                        No, the point is about acquiring the Holy Spirit. 
                                                         
                                                        That's pretty hard to do when clergy are speaking in foreign tongues.  Reference the examples of Sy Cyril and Methodius, enlighteners of the Slavs.  They taught in the native language.  The holy saints, Tikhon, Innocent, and Jacob of Alaska, all taught in the native language.  So too, do our missionary people of today in Albania, Africa, and Asia seek to learn the native language so they can teach the faith in the native tongue.
                                                         
                                                        Not everyone has the time, energy, and aptitude in today's environment to learn a foreign language after working 40-50 hours a week and tending to their families' needs.
                                                         
                                                        It is easier to correct the poor translations then ask the thousands of Orthodox Christians in  America to learn the greek text.
                                                         
                                                        In ICXC,
                                                        John Billo

                                                        On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 6:23 AM, Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@...> wrote:
                                                         

                                                        the point is aboutdeveloping wisdom.

                                                        Truth + Knowledge = Wisdom

                                                        On Feb 20, 2013 7:08 AM, "Chad W. Paul McBride" <c_mcbride7@...> wrote:
                                                         

                                                        If you want Greek go to a Greek church.  
                                                         
                                                         
                                                        Chad W. Paul McBride
                                                        What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                         
                                                        Date: 2/18/2013 19:46:19
                                                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                                         
                                                         

                                                        That i know of, there are about 6 Russian venacular Bible translations. In English, there are more than  70 different translations. The reasons are often politically motivated. Government and religious sects are the causes of this vagueness. The "cure" for this problem is for christians to learn Hellenist Greek. Orthodoxy is about God. Is it too much to ask for christians to learn Greek? Many Jews learn Hebrew.

                                                        On Feb 18, 2013 8:15 PM, "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
                                                         

                                                        The Greek word for a human "lord", and God the "Lord" is the same.

                                                        But my point was not to argue that Slavonic, properly understood is inferior to English properly understood.

                                                        There is the old question, if a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound? When it comes to a liturgical language's precision, if a liturgical language is precise, but no one understands it, does it matter?

                                                        Of course some of our people do understand Slavonic, but for those who do not, you could utter the deepest mysteries of the Faith in proper Slavonic, and you might as well be reciting the words to "Three Blind Mice" in Zulu, because to someone who doesn't understand it, it is just a string of syllables without any meaning.

                                                        Even to Russians who have grown up in our Church, and speaking Russian well, many of them do not understand Slavonic nearly as well as they do English. It is not unusual for such people to hear a hymn in English for the first time and say "Oh, so *that* is what that means!" If that is true for them, imagine how far from the correct meaning a non-Russian convert typically is.

                                                        Presbyter John Whiteford
                                                        St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                                        Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                                        ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                                        Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                                        Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                                        Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford

                                                        "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" -St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.





                                                        From: Elias G. Gorsky <egorsky@...>
                                                        To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:49 PM
                                                        Subject: RE: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor



                                                        Dear Father John,
                                                         
                                                        In Slavonic, the following phrases from the litanies give insurmountable preference of honor to Christ. The Slavonic word for Lord [Gospod’] labels Christ as God; while the Slavonic word for lord in the patriarch’s construct, “gospodin”, clearly refers to him as a man.
                                                         
                                                        Our Lord Jesus Christ
                                                         
                                                        Vs
                                                         
                                                        Our Great Lord and Father patriarch Kirill
                                                         
                                                        Since the exact same word is used in English, it appears that the patriarch is much more honored than Christ.
                                                         
                                                        How would your [ugly] English cook cook it so that the meaning is carried through?
                                                         
                                                        With love (sincerely),
                                                        p. Ilya Gorsky
                                                         

                                                        From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fr. John Whiteford
                                                        Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:11 AM
                                                        To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                                         
                                                         
                                                        I knew a Chinese man in college who commented on the difference between Chinese and English: "Chinese is like a beautiful woman, who can't cook. English is like an ugly woman, who cooks very good." He was talking about the practicality of Chinese (particularly in its written form) for business. One might say that in America , Slavonic may be a beautiful woman too... but she doesn't cook well in America , in terms of serving the practical need of conveying the meaning of the services to people who are unable to understand it very well.
                                                         
                                                        Presbyter John Whiteford
                                                        St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                                                        Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
                                                        ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
                                                        Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
                                                        Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
                                                        Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/frjohnwhiteford%20

                                                        "This is the cause of all evils: the ignorance of the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily IX on Colossians.

                                                         

                                                         

                                                        From: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                                        To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Cc: Chad W. Paul McBride <c_mcbride7@...>
                                                        Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:46 AM
                                                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                                         
                                                         
                                                         
                                                        Church Slavonic Is prettier I think.
                                                         
                                                        Chad W. Paul McBride
                                                        What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                                        Chad W. Paul McBride
                                                        What we do in life, Echoes in eternity
                                                         
                                                         
                                                        -------Original Message-------
                                                         
                                                        From: Meg Lark
                                                        Date: 2/16/2013 20:22:41
                                                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Tone Tutor
                                                         
                                                         
                                                        On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, savante914@... <savante914@...> wrote:
                                                         
                                                        There is no difference..just getting the words to fit the music.
                                                         
                                                        Sticking my neck out here, but...  That's actually why I prefer Russian music to Greek music.  Greek music well done can be beautiful, but it's really written only for Greek words.  Trying to alter it to fit English words is a huge no-no for Greeks, so they end up with constructions that sound just plain bizarre in English.  Whereas, Russian music has a wonderfully elastic quality that can accommodate English or Church Slavonic with no problem.
                                                         
                                                        Meg Lark 
                                                         
                                                         
                                                         
                                                         
                                                         




                                                         


                                                      • bismarc
                                                        ... ***********Juohn I see your point. Whereas in the ancient Church we westerners & African peoples had services in our languages. Its Christ imperative to
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Feb 20, 2013
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                                                          --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, John Billo <johnbillo@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > No, the point is about acquiring the Holy Spirit.
                                                          >
                                                          > That's pretty hard to do when clergy are speaking in foreign tongues.
                                                          > Reference the examples of Sy Cyril and Methodius, enlighteners of the
                                                          > Slavs. They taught in the native language. The holy saints, Tikhon,
                                                          > Innocent, and Jacob of Alaska, all taught in the native language. So too,
                                                          > do our missionary people of today in Albania, Africa, and Asia seek to
                                                          > learn the native language so they can teach the faith in the native tongue.
                                                          >
                                                          > Not everyone has the time, energy, and aptitude in today's environment to
                                                          > learn a foreign language after working 40-50 hours a week and tending to
                                                          > their families' needs.
                                                          >
                                                          > It is easier to correct the poor translations then ask the thousands of
                                                          > Orthodox Christians in America to learn the greek text.
                                                          >
                                                          > In ICXC,
                                                          > John Billo
                                                          ***********Juohn I see your point. Whereas in the ancient Church we westerners & African peoples had services in our languages. Its Christ imperative to the Apostles & other early Christians to go to all nations to spread the Word. In the Book of Acts we see God handing a miracle to the Apostles to teach & spread in foreign tongues that we lack.*
                                                          *That said its good we now have an abundance of literature, books & services in English & other languages. In 1968 when my Spiritual Father he lacked a lot. Yes out of Platina came the "Orthodox Word" & then other English books/services.*
                                                          *However I can live w/Russian, Greek, Serbian etc language services. Yes my knowledge of langauges is poor to Bishop Jerome's. Sometimes I still look to see when its time to do the sign of the Cross & other acts of worship. Unlike modern day Pentecostalist new age talking of tongues I can learn the languages we have. Plus its good for me to have an awareness of where I'm at. If I am in a non Englsih speaking parish I can adjust. Point is that I came to speak to God. I am sure while others are using say Greek, Russian etc God can hear me in English as well.*
                                                          *When I saw this post I feared yet another Greek V Russian language & culture in our Holy Orthodox Church. Its been better than that. Frankly I am not Russian nor Greek. A Greek Bishop once told me in the late 60s when converts were a coming at 1st they tried to be little Greeks, Russians etc. He said they even dressed as medevial Greeks or others. He said it was fine to learn others cultures but be what we are. He liked Wisconsin as we make really good cheese he said but he is no cheese maker.*
                                                          *I need to get to services. To worship God. To get a break from the daily mundane stuff of life. Sure its nice to get together w/others but its best to get there.
                                                          In Christ
                                                          Xenos Mann
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