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Miraculous Cloud Descends Annually

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  • ambrois@xtra.co.nz
    http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=8081 11 January 2011 Meteorologists fail to explain descending of the cloud on supposed place of the Lord s
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 14, 2011
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      11 January 2011

      Meteorologists fail to explain descending of the cloud on supposed
      place of the Lord's Transfiguration
       
      Moscow, January 11, Interfax - Science cannot explain a mystery of
      the cloud, that every year descends on the Mount Tabor where,
      according to the Bible, the Transfiguration of the Lord took place.
       
      Sergey Mirov, a participant in the research organized this summer by
      the working group on miraculous signs at the Synodal Theological
      Commission, the investigation was conducted by Russian and Israeli
      meteorologists, the Komsomolskaya Pravda daily writes.
       
      According to him, summing up the results, the experts concluded that
      fog cannot be generated in such dry air and temperature.
       
      Mirov stressed that "descending of the blessed cloud" takes place
      only in a territory of the Orthodox monastery. He said that during a
      festival service (miraculous phenomenon happens on the Orthodox feast
      of Transfiguration IF) a glaring sphere rushes over believers, then
      the cloud appears above the cross of the Transfiguration Church, it
      grows in dimensions and descends on believers, covering them and
      pouring life-giving moisture over them.
       
      In his turn Pavel Florensky, Russian Academy of Natural Sciences
      academician and head of the working group on miraculous signs, said
      that his team examined appearance of the Holy Fire at the Church of
      the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem on Easter eve with the help of modern
      highly accurate equipment.
       
      "The conclusion is simple: the appearance of fire is accompanied with
      powerful piezoelectrical phenomenon in the church and adjacent
      territories similar to those that take place during thunderstorms,
      but there was no thunderstorm... Thus, it means that this event can
      be considered miraculous," he believes.
       
       
    • nickofmyra
      Of course the question is on what day does this occur. i.e. does it follow the old or new calendar or does it occur on both? In Christ Deacon Paul
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 15, 2011
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        Of course the question is on what day does this occur. i.e. does it follow the old or new calendar or does it occur on both?

        In Christ
        Deacon Paul

        --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, <ambrois@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=8081
        >
        > 11 January 2011
        >
        > Meteorologists fail to explain descending of the cloud on supposed
        > place of the Lord's Transfiguration
        >
        > Moscow, January 11, Interfax - Science cannot explain a mystery of
        > the cloud, that every year descends on the Mount Tabor where,
        > according to the Bible, the Transfiguration of the Lord took place.
        >
        > Sergey Mirov, a participant in the research organized this summer by
        > the working group on miraculous signs at the Synodal Theological
        > Commission, the investigation was conducted by Russian and Israeli
        > meteorologists, the Komsomolskaya Pravda daily writes.
        >
        > According to him, summing up the results, the experts concluded that
        > fog cannot be generated in such dry air and temperature.
        >
        > Mirov stressed that "descending of the blessed cloud" takes place
        > only in a territory of the Orthodox monastery. He said that during a
        > festival service (miraculous phenomenon happens on the Orthodox feast
        > of Transfiguration IF) a glaring sphere rushes over believers, then
        > the cloud appears above the cross of the Transfiguration Church, it
        > grows in dimensions and descends on believers, covering them and
        > pouring life-giving moisture over them.
        >
        > In his turn Pavel Florensky, Russian Academy of Natural Sciences
        > academician and head of the working group on miraculous signs, said
        > that his team examined appearance of the Holy Fire at the Church of
        > the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem on Easter eve with the help of modern
        > highly accurate equipment.
        >
        > "The conclusion is simple: the appearance of fire is accompanied with
        > powerful piezoelectrical phenomenon in the church and adjacent
        > territories similar to those that take place during thunderstorms,
        > but there was no thunderstorm... Thus, it means that this event can
        > be considered miraculous," he believes.
        >
      • antiquariu@aol.com
        Or does it occur at all, since the only descriptions of it are vague at best and , unlike the Fire, are not exactly widely reported. I don t think it s the
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 15, 2011
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          Or does it occur at all, since the only descriptions of it are vague at best and , unlike the Fire, are not exactly widely reported.  I don't think it's the same person, but there is a Russian energy physicist by that name; his personal resume, however, addresses nothing of the sort.
           
          In Christ,
           
          Vova H.
           
          In a message dated 1/15/2011 10:10:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, nickofmyra@... writes:
          Of course the question is on what day does this occur. i.e. does it follow the old or new calendar or does it occur on both?

          In Christ
          Deacon Paul

        • Fr David Straut
          The miracle occurs on the Old Calendar, 6 / 19 August. Fr David Straut
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 15, 2011
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            The miracle occurs on the Old Calendar, 6 / 19 August.

            Fr David Straut

            On 15 January 2011 06:55, nickofmyra <nickofmyra@...> wrote:
             

            Of course the question is on what day does this occur. i.e. does it follow the old or new calendar or does it occur on both?

            In Christ
            Deacon Paul

            --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, <ambrois@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=8081
            >
            > 11 January 2011
            >
            > Meteorologists fail to explain descending of the cloud on supposed
            > place of the Lord's Transfiguration
            >
            > Moscow, January 11, Interfax - Science cannot explain a mystery of
            > the cloud, that every year descends on the Mount Tabor where,
            > according to the Bible, the Transfiguration of the Lord took place.
            >
            > Sergey Mirov, a participant in the research organized this summer by
            > the working group on miraculous signs at the Synodal Theological
            > Commission, the investigation was conducted by Russian and Israeli
            > meteorologists, the Komsomolskaya Pravda daily writes.
            >
            > According to him, summing up the results, the experts concluded that
            > fog cannot be generated in such dry air and temperature.
            >
            > Mirov stressed that "descending of the blessed cloud" takes place
            > only in a territory of the Orthodox monastery. He said that during a
            > festival service (miraculous phenomenon happens on the Orthodox feast
            > of Transfiguration IF) a glaring sphere rushes over believers, then
            > the cloud appears above the cross of the Transfiguration Church, it
            > grows in dimensions and descends on believers, covering them and
            > pouring life-giving moisture over them.
            >
            > In his turn Pavel Florensky, Russian Academy of Natural Sciences
            > academician and head of the working group on miraculous signs, said
            > that his team examined appearance of the Holy Fire at the Church of
            > the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem on Easter eve with the help of modern
            > highly accurate equipment.
            >
            > "The conclusion is simple: the appearance of fire is accompanied with
            > powerful piezoelectrical phenomenon in the church and adjacent
            > territories similar to those that take place during thunderstorms,
            > but there was no thunderstorm... Thus, it means that this event can
            > be considered miraculous," he believes.
            >


          • Fr Tryphon
            It follows the Church Calendar, i.e., the Old Calendar, just as does the movement of the waters, backwards, one Holy Theophany, at the site of Christ s
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 15, 2011
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              It follows the Church Calendar, i.e., the "Old Calendar," just as does the movement of the waters, backwards, one Holy Theophany, at the site of Christ's baptism, in the River Jordan. As well, the Holy Fire comes down in the Tomb of Christ, only on Orthodox Pascha, and not on the Western calendar's celebration of "Easter." Doesn't this say something about the importance of the Traditional Calendar? I think so!
              Abbot Tryphon

              On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 3:55 AM, nickofmyra <nickofmyra@...> wrote:
               

              Of course the question is on what day does this occur. i.e. does it follow the old or new calendar or does it occur on both?

              In Christ
              Deacon Paul



              --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, <ambrois@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=8081
              >
              > 11 January 2011
              >
              > Meteorologists fail to explain descending of the cloud on supposed
              > place of the Lord's Transfiguration
              >
              > Moscow, January 11, Interfax - Science cannot explain a mystery of
              > the cloud, that every year descends on the Mount Tabor where,
              > according to the Bible, the Transfiguration of the Lord took place.
              >
              > Sergey Mirov, a participant in the research organized this summer by
              > the working group on miraculous signs at the Synodal Theological
              > Commission, the investigation was conducted by Russian and Israeli
              > meteorologists, the Komsomolskaya Pravda daily writes.
              >
              > According to him, summing up the results, the experts concluded that
              > fog cannot be generated in such dry air and temperature.
              >
              > Mirov stressed that "descending of the blessed cloud" takes place
              > only in a territory of the Orthodox monastery. He said that during a
              > festival service (miraculous phenomenon happens on the Orthodox feast
              > of Transfiguration IF) a glaring sphere rushes over believers, then
              > the cloud appears above the cross of the Transfiguration Church, it
              > grows in dimensions and descends on believers, covering them and
              > pouring life-giving moisture over them.
              >
              > In his turn Pavel Florensky, Russian Academy of Natural Sciences
              > academician and head of the working group on miraculous signs, said
              > that his team examined appearance of the Holy Fire at the Church of
              > the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem on Easter eve with the help of modern
              > highly accurate equipment.
              >
              > "The conclusion is simple: the appearance of fire is accompanied with
              > powerful piezoelectrical phenomenon in the church and adjacent
              > territories similar to those that take place during thunderstorms,
              > but there was no thunderstorm... Thus, it means that this event can
              > be considered miraculous," he believes.
              >




              --
              Very Rev. Abbot Tryphon
              All-Merciful Saviour Monastery
              Vashon Island, WA 98070-2420
              frtryphon@...
              http://www.vashonmonks.com
              http://morningoffering.blogspot.com/
            • Stefan
              From those that have witnessed this miracle among pilgrims to the Holy land that I personally know, it occurred when they where there for the feast according
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 15, 2011
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                From those that have witnessed this miracle among pilgrims to the Holy land that I personally know, it occurred when they where there for the feast according to the Julian Calendar; but I have heard from others that it was witnessed on both dates! The description that an eye witness related to me, was that a cloud began to form on the mountain and light flashed inside the cloud, then the cloud seemed to evaporate. Also inside the church some phenomenon took place also, but I can not recall the exact description of what occurred!

                --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "nickofmyra" <nickofmyra@...> wrote:
                >
                > Of course the question is on what day does this occur. i.e. does it follow the old or new calendar or does it occur on both?
                >
                > In Christ
                > Deacon Paul
                >
                > --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, <ambrois@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=8081
                > >
                > > 11 January 2011
                > >
                > > Meteorologists fail to explain descending of the cloud on supposed
                > > place of the Lord's Transfiguration
                > >
                > > Moscow, January 11, Interfax - Science cannot explain a mystery of
                > > the cloud, that every year descends on the Mount Tabor where,
                > > according to the Bible, the Transfiguration of the Lord took place.
                > >
                > > Sergey Mirov, a participant in the research organized this summer by
                > > the working group on miraculous signs at the Synodal Theological
                > > Commission, the investigation was conducted by Russian and Israeli
                > > meteorologists, the Komsomolskaya Pravda daily writes.
                > >
                > > According to him, summing up the results, the experts concluded that
                > > fog cannot be generated in such dry air and temperature.
                > >
                > > Mirov stressed that "descending of the blessed cloud" takes place
                > > only in a territory of the Orthodox monastery. He said that during a
                > > festival service (miraculous phenomenon happens on the Orthodox feast
                > > of Transfiguration IF) a glaring sphere rushes over believers, then
                > > the cloud appears above the cross of the Transfiguration Church, it
                > > grows in dimensions and descends on believers, covering them and
                > > pouring life-giving moisture over them.
                > >
                > > In his turn Pavel Florensky, Russian Academy of Natural Sciences
                > > academician and head of the working group on miraculous signs, said
                > > that his team examined appearance of the Holy Fire at the Church of
                > > the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem on Easter eve with the help of modern
                > > highly accurate equipment.
                > >
                > > "The conclusion is simple: the appearance of fire is accompanied with
                > > powerful piezoelectrical phenomenon in the church and adjacent
                > > territories similar to those that take place during thunderstorms,
                > > but there was no thunderstorm... Thus, it means that this event can
                > > be considered miraculous," he believes.
                > >
                >
              • Meg Lark
                ... It does to me, too. However, I know a Romanian priest who maintains that the acid test of the Calendar would be if we all moved to the New Calendar, and
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 15, 2011
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                  On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 1:26 PM, Fr Tryphon <frtryphon@...> wrote:
                   

                  It follows the Church Calendar, i.e., the "Old Calendar," just as does the movement of the waters, backwards, one Holy Theophany, at the site of Christ's baptism, in the River Jordan. As well, the Holy Fire comes down in the Tomb of Christ, only on Orthodox Pascha, and not on the Western calendar's celebration of "Easter." Doesn't this say something about the importance of the Traditional Calendar? I think so!
                  Abbot Tryphon

                   
                  It does to me, too.  However, I know a  Romanian priest who maintains that the acid test of the Calendar would be if we all moved to the New Calendar, and that way, if the Holy Fire continued to come only on the Julian Calendar, we'd know which was more pleasing to God.
                   
                  I for one am NOT going there.
                   
                  Kissing your right hand,
                  Meg Lark
                • Fr Tryphon
                  This has already been done, in a way. Many years ago, the Patriarch of Jerusalem switched to the Latin reckoning for Easter. When the Holy Fire did not come
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 15, 2011
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                    This has already been done, in a way. Many years ago, the Patriarch of Jerusalem switched to the Latin reckoning for Easter. When the Holy Fire did not come down during the Paschal service on Holy Saturday (the supposed Holy Saturday,) the Patriarch immediately switched back, in time for the Orthodox Paschal reckoning. The Fire came down.
                    Abbot Tryphon

                    On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 2:40 PM, Meg Lark <woolfolk3@...> wrote:
                     

                    On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 1:26 PM, Fr Tryphon <frtryphon@...> wrote:
                     

                    It follows the Church Calendar, i.e., the "Old Calendar," just as does the movement of the waters, backwards, one Holy Theophany, at the site of Christ's baptism, in the River Jordan. As well, the Holy Fire comes down in the Tomb of Christ, only on Orthodox Pascha, and not on the Western calendar's celebration of "Easter." Doesn't this say something about the importance of the Traditional Calendar? I think so!
                    Abbot Tryphon

                     
                    It does to me, too.  However, I know a  Romanian priest who maintains that the acid test of the Calendar would be if we all moved to the New Calendar, and that way, if the Holy Fire continued to come only on the Julian Calendar, we'd know which was more pleasing to God.
                     
                    I for one am NOT going there.
                     
                    Kissing your right hand,
                    Meg Lark



                    --
                    Very Rev. Abbot Tryphon
                    All-Merciful Saviour Monastery
                    Vashon Island, WA 98070-2420
                    frtryphon@...
                    http://www.vashonmonks.com
                    http://morningoffering.blogspot.com/
                  • Meg Lark
                    ... Ahhh, I wish I had known that at the time I had that conversation! Thanks, Father! Kissing your right hand, Meg
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 16, 2011
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                      On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 9:59 PM, Fr Tryphon <frtryphon@...> wrote:
                       

                      This has already been done, in a way. Many years ago, the Patriarch of Jerusalem switched to the Latin reckoning for Easter. When the Holy Fire did not come down during the Paschal service on Holy Saturday (the supposed Holy Saturday,) the Patriarch immediately switched back, in time for the Orthodox Paschal reckoning. The Fire came down.
                      Abbot Tryphon

                       
                      Ahhh, I wish I had known that at the time I had that conversation!  Thanks, Father!
                       
                      Kissing your right hand,
                      Meg
                    • antiquariu@aol.com
                      Dear Abbot Tryphon, the Holy Fire is indeed a miracle as near as I can tell, although it doesn t appear to matter that half the folks (and half the clergy
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 16, 2011
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                        Dear Abbot Tryphon,
                         
                        the Holy Fire is indeed a miracle as near as I can tell, although it doesn't appear to matter that half the folks (and half the clergy there) are not Orthodox, but I've been at the baptismal site twice on the appointed day, and nothing at all happened. I frankly think it says nothing about the traditional calendar and a lot for pumping up tradition without applying a bit of Occam's Razor.  I would appreciate knowing if we are talking about the 'traditional site' which has been completely debunked, or the 'confirmed site,' which is in Jordan, not Israel, and which has been accepted by the Catholics and many of the Orthodox.  My use of the word 'debunked' is not pejorative here: hierarchs from Patriarch Kyril and Patriarch Alexej II to the EP, as well as the Pope, have affirmed in writing that the West Bank site is NOT the real site, but rather that the now being developed site on the Jordan East Bank, which is in Jordan itself, is the real one.
                         
                        I'm sorry, but both calendars are innovations, and not anything dictated by our Lord.
                         
                        In Christ,
                         
                        Vladimir Hindrichs (Vova H).
                        Washington DC
                         
                        In a message dated 1/15/2011 4:43:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, frtryphon@... writes:
                        It follows the Church Calendar, i.e., the "Old Calendar," just as does the movement of the waters, backwards, one Holy Theophany, at the site of Christ's baptism, in the River Jordan. As well, the Holy Fire comes down in the Tomb of Christ, only on Orthodox Pascha, and not on the Western calendar's celebration of "Easter." Doesn't this say something about the importance of the Traditional Calendar? I think so!
                        Abbot Tryphon

                      • Fr Tryphon
                        Thank you for the correction. I d not heard that the backward flowing waters, taking place on Theophany, had been debunked. I have heard, however, that the
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 17, 2011
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                          Thank you for the correction. I'd not heard that the backward flowing waters, taking place on Theophany, had been debunked. I have heard, however, that the Holy Fire only comes down on Orthodox Pascha, and has never come down on the Latin Easter (even when the Latins had total control of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.) Also, when the Armenians bribed the Islamics, and were able to keep the Greek Orthodox Patriarch out of the Holy Tomb, the Holy Fire came out through a pillar (the evidence is still there) and lit the candles of the Orthodox, assembled in the plaza before the doors of the church.  It did not come down in the tomb itself, for the Armenians.
                          Abbot Tryphon


                          On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 12:35 PM, <antiquariu@...> wrote:
                           

                           
                          Dear Abbot Tryphon,
                           
                          the Holy Fire is indeed a miracle as near as I can tell, although it doesn't appear to matter that half the folks (and half the clergy there) are not Orthodox, but I've been at the baptismal site twice on the appointed day, and nothing at all happened. I frankly think it says nothing about the traditional calendar and a lot for pumping up tradition without applying a bit of Occam's Razor.  I would appreciate knowing if we are talking about the 'traditional site' which has been completely debunked, or the 'confirmed site,' which is in Jordan, not Israel, and which has been accepted by the Catholics and many of the Orthodox.  My use of the word 'debunked' is not pejorative here: hierarchs from Patriarch Kyril and Patriarch Alexej II to the EP, as well as the Pope, have affirmed in writing that the West Bank site is NOT the real site, but rather that the now being developed site on the Jordan East Bank, which is in Jordan itself, is the real one.
                           
                          I'm sorry, but both calendars are innovations, and not anything dictated by our Lord.
                           
                          In Christ,
                           
                          Vladimir Hindrichs (Vova H).
                          Washington DC
                           
                          In a message dated 1/15/2011 4:43:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, frtryphon@... writes:
                          It follows the Church Calendar, i.e., the "Old Calendar," just as does the movement of the waters, backwards, one Holy Theophany, at the site of Christ's baptism, in the River Jordan. As well, the Holy Fire comes down in the Tomb of Christ, only on Orthodox Pascha, and not on the Western calendar's celebration of "Easter." Doesn't this say something about the importance of the Traditional Calendar? I think so!
                          Abbot Tryphon




                          --
                          Very Rev. Abbot Tryphon
                          All-Merciful Saviour Monastery
                          Vashon Island, WA 98070-2420
                          frtryphon@...
                          http://www.vashonmonks.com
                          http://morningoffering.blogspot.com/
                        • Adamiak Family
                          http://orthodoxword.wordpress.com/2010/01/05/theophanyepiphany-the-miracle-of-the-river-jordan-and-the-great-prophet-john-the-baptist/ What about the video
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 17, 2011
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                            http://orthodoxword.wordpress.com/2010/01/05/theophanyepiphany-the-miracle-of-the-river-jordan-and-the-great-prophet-john-the-baptist/

                            What about the video posted at the site above showing the water reversing?  Aleksandra

                            --- On Mon, 1/17/11, Fr Tryphon <frtryphon@...> wrote:

                            From: Fr Tryphon <frtryphon@...>
                            Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Miraculous Cloud Descends Annually
                            To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Monday, January 17, 2011, 10:19 AM

                             

                            Thank you for the correction. I'd not heard that the backward flowing waters, taking place on Theophany, had been debunked. I have heard, however, that the Holy Fire only comes down on Orthodox Pascha, and has never come down on the Latin Easter (even when the Latins had total control of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.) Also, when the Armenians bribed the Islamics, and were able to keep the Greek Orthodox Patriarch out of the Holy Tomb, the Holy Fire came out through a pillar (the evidence is still there) and lit the candles of the Orthodox, assembled in the plaza before the doors of the church.  It did not come down in the tomb itself, for the Armenians.
                            Abbot Tryphon


                            On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 12:35 PM, <antiquariu@...> wrote:
                             

                             
                            Dear Abbot Tryphon,
                             
                            the Holy Fire is indeed a miracle as near as I can tell, although it doesn't appear to matter that half the folks (and half the clergy there) are not Orthodox, but I've been at the baptismal site twice on the appointed day, and nothing at all happened. I frankly think it says nothing about the traditional calendar and a lot for pumping up tradition without applying a bit of Occam's Razor.  I would appreciate knowing if we are talking about the 'traditional site' which has been completely debunked, or the 'confirmed site,' which is in Jordan, not Israel, and which has been accepted by the Catholics and many of the Orthodox.  My use of the word 'debunked' is not pejorative here: hierarchs from Patriarch Kyril and Patriarch Alexej II to the EP, as well as the Pope, have affirmed in writing that the West Bank site is NOT the real site, but rather that the now being developed site on the Jordan East Bank, which is in Jordan itself, is the real one.
                             
                            I'm sorry, but both calendars are innovations, and not anything dictated by our Lord.
                             
                            In Christ,
                             
                            Vladimir Hindrichs (Vova H).
                            Washington DC
                             
                            In a message dated 1/15/2011 4:43:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, frtryphon@... writes:
                            It follows the Church Calendar, i.e., the "Old Calendar," just as does the movement of the waters, backwards, one Holy Theophany, at the site of Christ's baptism, in the River Jordan. As well, the Holy Fire comes down in the Tomb of Christ, only on Orthodox Pascha, and not on the Western calendar's celebration of "Easter." Doesn't this say something about the importance of the Traditional Calendar? I think so!
                            Abbot Tryphon




                            --
                            Very Rev. Abbot Tryphon
                            All-Merciful Saviour Monastery
                            Vashon Island, WA 98070-2420
                            frtryphon@...
                            http://www.vashonmonks.com
                            http://morningoffering.blogspot.com/

                          • Meg Lark
                            Now I m curious to know where the GOA video was shot that shows the waters flowing backwards. In Christ, Meg Lark
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 17, 2011
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                              Now I'm curious to know where the GOA video was shot that shows the waters flowing backwards.
                               
                              In Christ,
                              Meg Lark

                              On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Fr Tryphon <frtryphon@...> wrote:
                               

                              Thank you for the correction. I'd not heard that the backward flowing waters, taking place on Theophany, had been debunked. I have heard, however, that the Holy Fire only comes down on Orthodox Pascha, and has never come down on the Latin Easter (even when the Latins had total control of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.) Also, when the Armenians bribed the Islamics, and were able to keep the Greek Orthodox Patriarch out of the Holy Tomb, the Holy Fire came out through a pillar (the evidence is still there) and lit the candles of the Orthodox, assembled in the plaza before the doors of the church.  It did not come down in the tomb itself, for the Armenians.
                              Abbot Tryphon


                              On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 12:35 PM, <antiquariu@...> wrote:
                               

                               
                              Dear Abbot Tryphon,
                               
                              the Holy Fire is indeed a miracle as near as I can tell, although it doesn't appear to matter that half the folks (and half the clergy there) are not Orthodox, but I've been at the baptismal site twice on the appointed day, and nothing at all happened. I frankly think it says nothing about the traditional calendar and a lot for pumping up tradition without applying a bit of Occam's Razor.  I would appreciate knowing if we are talking about the 'traditional site' which has been completely debunked, or the 'confirmed site,' which is in Jordan, not Israel, and which has been accepted by the Catholics and many of the Orthodox.  My use of the word 'debunked' is not pejorative here: hierarchs from Patriarch Kyril and Patriarch Alexej II to the EP, as well as the Pope, have affirmed in writing that the West Bank site is NOT the real site, but rather that the now being developed site on the Jordan East Bank, which is in Jordan itself, is the real one.
                               
                              I'm sorry, but both calendars are innovations, and not anything dictated by our Lord.
                               
                              In Christ,
                               
                              Vladimir Hindrichs (Vova H).
                              Washington DC
                               
                              In a message dated 1/15/2011 4:43:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, frtryphon@... writes:
                              It follows the Church Calendar, i.e., the "Old Calendar," just as does the movement of the waters, backwards, one Holy Theophany, at the site of Christ's baptism, in the River Jordan. As well, the Holy Fire comes down in the Tomb of Christ, only on Orthodox Pascha, and not on the Western calendar's celebration of "Easter." Doesn't this say something about the importance of the Traditional Calendar? I think so!
                              Abbot Tryphon
                            • antiquariu@aol.com
                              I hope that I did not give the impression of the water flow having been debunked; I do not know whether that one s debunked or not. I addressed the location,
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jan 17, 2011
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                                I hope that I did not give the impression of the water flow having been debunked; I do not know whether that one's debunked or not. I addressed the location, because the 'traditional location' is no longer accepted by the major churches, to include the Russians, EP, and Catholics.  Until recently, the West Bank site was the 'official site,' but this was largely due to the East Bank site being off limits.  It was opened by King Hussein after negotiations with the Catholics.  The position by Patriarch Alexej II is posted on the RPTs site, and he also affirms that the site is the East Bank site.  My comment is that I was at the 'traditional site' on two occasions on Theophany (OS) and nothing happened, nor did anyone act particularly surprised that it didn't.  I dismissed it as being sort of like the Shepherds Field goat rope, where both the Catholics and the Greeks have separate 'Shepherds Fields' which claim to be the original, and where both make emphatic statements that don't hold a lot of water.  I made a point of visiting a lot of sites which had shared traditions between the various peoples of the book, and what I discovered is that the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, Jewish tradition and the Moslems all -- without exception -- have a real flair for making things up which despite being contradictory don't really matter.  It's really important that the water changes direction - no one is surprised when it doesn't happen.  The Greeks crow loudly about the Holy Fire only coming to the Orthodox - yet the Armenians (and for that matter, any one else, including Moslems, who is there when it happens, gets it too.  The world comes to an end (or the anti-Christ arrives, or any of a variety of other traditions) when the Oak of Mambre dies; the Oak dies, and nothing happens.  All pretty interesting.  Even more interesting is something a lot more curious: the cleric who founds the Russian Spiritual Mission is credited with having major doubts about the Holy Fire, and states that he was told by resident clerics that it was contrived.  I have not been able to find a complete copy of the good Father's diary, but if any of our clergy have one, I'll be happy to translate the pertinent parts.
                                 
                                Порфирий  ( Успенский  Константин Александрович), епископ Чигиринский.
                                Книга бытия моего (Дневник и автобиографические записки) в 8-ми частях (извлечение из книги, изданной имп. Палестинским общ.). СПб, 1894, 1895, 1896 (2 ч.), 1899, 1900, 1901.
                                 
                                Porphyrius was a Russian Orthodox archimandrite who was sent on the official Church-related research mission to Jerusalem and other places (Egypt, Mount Athos). While in Jerusalem, he founded the Russian Mission there. Later, after his return to the Russian Empire, he was made a bishop in the diocese of Kiev.  Porphyrius recorded his impressions in his diaries, which were published as Kniga bytija moego (The Book Of My Being) in 8 volumes from 1894 to 1901 . In the first volume Porphyrius writes
                                'A hierodeacon who penetrated into the shrine of the Tomb at the time when, as everyone believes, the holy fire descends, saw with horror that the fire is ignited from a mere icon-lamp which never goes out, and thus the holy fire isn't a miracle. He himself told me about this today" (Kniga bytija moego, vol. 1 (years 1841-1844), p. 671).'
                                 
                                It is not stated how this perpetual flame is supposed to be kept alight.

                                'Porphyrius later relates a story told to him by a metropolitan in Jerusalem. According to this, when Ibrahim Pasha of Egypt was there he wanted to verify the authenticity of the miracle, so he told the Patriarch's deputies to allow him inside the shrine during the rites. If the miracle was authentic he would donate a large sum of money, but if it were a fraud he would confiscate all the money given by pilgrims and expose the fraud in all the European newspapers.
                                Deputies Metropolitan Misaеl of Petra, Metropolitan Daniel of Nazareth, and Bishop Dionysius of Philadelphia met to discuss the offer. Misael then admitted that he ignites the fire from an icon-lamp which is hidden behind the marble icon of Christ's Resurrection behind the burial couch. Thus they decided to beg Ibrahim not to interfere in religious business and not to expose the secrets of Christian rites, because the Russian Emperor Nicholas would be very unhappy if that were to happen. Ibrahim Pasha therefore decided not to press the matter. But from that time the clergy of the Tomb ceased to believe in the miraculous descent of the Holy Fire.
                                Porphyrius continues
                                ...the metropolitan added that only from God himself they await the cessation of (our) pious lie. As he is able, he will calm the people who now believe in the fiery miracle of the Great Sabbath. But we cannot even start this revolution in thought. We'd be torn apart near the very shrine of the Holy Tomb. We have informed the patriarch Athanasius, who then lived in Constantinople, about the blackmail of Ibrahim Pasha, but in our letter to him we wrote 'sacred fire' instead of 'holy light'. Surprised by this change the blessed elder asked us: 'Why are you calling the Holy Fire differently?' We told him the truth, but added that the fire, ignited on the Lord's Tomb from the concealed icon-lamp, is, after all, a sacred fire, since it comes from a sacred place. (Kniga bytija moego, vol. 3, pp. 299–301).'
                                 
                                Personally, it would not do anything to my Faith one way or the other if such a set of comments were to be proven.  There's very little out there that hasn't been done before, and our Lord never directed or even remarked on Holy Fire.  He did, however, intimate more than once that miracles were not for show. 
                                 
                                Sort of makes one wonder where Saint Ignatij Bryanchaninov is when we need him most: why is it important to seek out contrived miracles when we ignore the real miracle in the chalice?
                                 
                                I loved going to the Holy Land, and experiencing the locations of our Lord's Passion.  I felt closer to my Faith when I saw them.  It was very real to me when I saw the seas, lakes and rivers, and I felt like I had been privileged to walk into the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron (now a very active mosque, which does allow Christians and Jews to enter with their personal venerations.
                                 
                                 
                                In Christ,
                                 
                                Vladimir (Vova) Hindrichs, Washington DC
                                 
                                In a message dated 1/17/2011 12:25:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, woolfolk3@... writes:
                                Now I'm curious to know where the GOA video was shot that shows the waters flowing backwards.
                                 
                                In Christ,
                                Meg Lark

                              • antiquariu@aol.com
                                Good question, Alexandria! ARe we sure it s not a case of the Emperor s New Clothes? The many times I ve seen the Jordan, and the two times I ve seen it on
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jan 17, 2011
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                                  Good question, Alexandria!  ARe we sure it's not a case of the Emperor's New Clothes? The many times I've seen the Jordan, and the two times I've seen it on Theophany, I would hardly describe it as roiling.  It's rather a peaceful stream.  Try as I might, I stared at the provided video about ten times, and I still don't see anything I could unequivocally call a reversal of the waters.  And I thought it was a particularly nice touch the way the photographer was so amazed with what was going on that he/she shot land and skyscapes in the middle of it, and we get a cute picture of the birds that are released every time.
                                   
                                  In Christ
                                   
                                  Vladimir Hindrichs (Vova H)
                                   
                                  But then, is it a tradition that describes or defines our Faith?  No. Is it mentioned in the Creed?  No.
                                   
                                  In a message dated 1/17/2011 12:26:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, familyorthodox@... writes:

                                  http://orthodoxword.wordpress.com/2010/01/05/theophanyepiphany-the-miracle-of-the-river-jordan-and-the-great-prophet-john-the-baptist/

                                  What about the video posted at the site above showing the water reversing?  Aleksandra

                                • Adamiak Family
                                  Even more interesting is something a lot more curious: the cleric who founds the Russian Spiritual Mission is credited with having major doubts about the Holy
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jan 18, 2011
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                                    "Even more interesting is something a lot more curious: the cleric who founds the Russian Spiritual Mission is credited with having major doubts about the Holy Fire, and states that he was told by resident clerics that it was contrived.  I have not been able to find a complete copy of the good Father's diary, but if any of our clergy have one, I'll be happy to translate the pertinent parts." 

                                     That, Vlad, is interesting because I have talked to several people who have witnessed their candles and others illuminating  by themselves.  Reminds me of the story I read today about Saints Theopemptus and Theonas.  Diocletian just could not believe the miracles that St. Theopemptus performed and Theonas, a true sorcerer, finally acquired the faith he needed to believe.  In the video, watch the cross, you will see it reverse as the waters reverse.  Aleksandra

                                    --- On Mon, 1/17/11, antiquariu@... <antiquariu@...> wrote:

                                    From: antiquariu@... <antiquariu@...>
                                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Miraculous Cloud Descends Annually
                                    To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Monday, January 17, 2011, 7:27 PM

                                     

                                    I hope that I did not give the impression of the water flow having been debunked; I do not know whether that one's debunked or not. I addressed the location, because the 'traditional location' is no longer accepted by the major churches, to include the Russians, EP, and Catholics.  Until recently, the West Bank site was the 'official site,' but this was largely due to the East Bank site being off limits.  It was opened by King Hussein after negotiations with the Catholics.  The position by Patriarch Alexej II is posted on the RPTs site, and he also affirms that the site is the East Bank site.  My comment is that I was at the 'traditional site' on two occasions on Theophany (OS) and nothing happened, nor did anyone act particularly surprised that it didn't.  I dismissed it as being sort of like the Shepherds Field goat rope, where both the Catholics and the Greeks have separate 'Shepherds Fields' which claim to be the original, and where both make emphatic statements that don't hold a lot of water.  I made a point of visiting a lot of sites which had shared traditions between the various peoples of the book, and what I discovered is that the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, Jewish tradition and the Moslems all -- without exception -- have a real flair for making things up which despite being contradictory don't really matter.  It's really important that the water changes direction - no one is surprised when it doesn't happen.  The Greeks crow loudly about the Holy Fire only coming to the Orthodox - yet the Armenians (and for that matter, any one else, including Moslems, who is there when it happens, gets it too.  The world comes to an end (or the anti-Christ arrives, or any of a variety of other traditions) when the Oak of Mambre dies; the Oak dies, and nothing happens.  All pretty interesting.  Even more interesting is something a lot more curious: the cleric who founds the Russian Spiritual Mission is credited with having major doubts about the Holy Fire, and states that he was told by resident clerics that it was contrived.  I have not been able to find a complete copy of the good Father's diary, but if any of our clergy have one, I'll be happy to translate the pertinent parts.
                                     
                                    Порфирий  ( Успенский  Константин Александрович), епископ Чигиринский.
                                    Книга бытия моего (Дневник и автобиографические записки) в 8-ми частях (извлечение из книги, изданной имп. Палестинским общ.). СПб, 1894, 1895, 1896 (2 ч.), 1899, 1900, 1901.
                                     
                                    Porphyrius was a Russian Orthodox archimandrite who was sent on the official Church-related research mission to Jerusalem and other places (Egypt, Mount Athos). While in Jerusalem, he founded the Russian Mission there. Later, after his return to the Russian Empire, he was made a bishop in the diocese of Kiev.  Porphyrius recorded his impressions in his diaries, which were published as Kniga bytija moego (The Book Of My Being) in 8 volumes from 1894 to 1901 . In the first volume Porphyrius writes
                                    'A hierodeacon who penetrated into the shrine of the Tomb at the time when, as everyone believes, the holy fire descends, saw with horror that the fire is ignited from a mere icon-lamp which never goes out, and thus the holy fire isn't a miracle. He himself told me about this today" (Kniga bytija moego, vol. 1 (years 1841-1844), p. 671).'
                                     
                                    It is not stated how this perpetual flame is supposed to be kept alight.

                                    'Porphyrius later relates a story told to him by a metropolitan in Jerusalem. According to this, when Ibrahim Pasha of Egypt was there he wanted to verify the authenticity of the miracle, so he told the Patriarch's deputies to allow him inside the shrine during the rites. If the miracle was authentic he would donate a large sum of money, but if it were a fraud he would confiscate all the money given by pilgrims and expose the fraud in all the European newspapers.
                                    Deputies Metropolitan Misaеl of Petra, Metropolitan Daniel of Nazareth, and Bishop Dionysius of Philadelphia met to discuss the offer. Misael then admitted that he ignites the fire from an icon-lamp which is hidden behind the marble icon of Christ's Resurrection behind the burial couch. Thus they decided to beg Ibrahim not to interfere in religious business and not to expose the secrets of Christian rites, because the Russian Emperor Nicholas would be very unhappy if that were to happen. Ibrahim Pasha therefore decided not to press the matter. But from that time the clergy of the Tomb ceased to believe in the miraculous descent of the Holy Fire.
                                    Porphyrius continues
                                    ...the metropolitan added that only from God himself they await the cessation of (our) pious lie. As he is able, he will calm the people who now believe in the fiery miracle of the Great Sabbath. But we cannot even start this revolution in thought. We'd be torn apart near the very shrine of the Holy Tomb. We have informed the patriarch Athanasius, who then lived in Constantinople, about the blackmail of Ibrahim Pasha, but in our letter to him we wrote 'sacred fire' instead of 'holy light'. Surprised by this change the blessed elder asked us: 'Why are you calling the Holy Fire differently?' We told him the truth, but added that the fire, ignited on the Lord's Tomb from the concealed icon-lamp, is, after all, a sacred fire, since it comes from a sacred place. (Kniga bytija moego, vol. 3, pp. 299–301).'
                                     
                                    Personally, it would not do anything to my Faith one way or the other if such a set of comments were to be proven.  There's very little out there that hasn't been done before, and our Lord never directed or even remarked on Holy Fire.  He did, however, intimate more than once that miracles were not for show. 
                                     
                                    Sort of makes one wonder where Saint Ignatij Bryanchaninov is when we need him most: why is it important to seek out contrived miracles when we ignore the real miracle in the chalice?
                                     
                                    I loved going to the Holy Land, and experiencing the locations of our Lord's Passion.  I felt closer to my Faith when I saw them.  It was very real to me when I saw the seas, lakes and rivers, and I felt like I had been privileged to walk into the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron (now a very active mosque, which does allow Christians and Jews to enter with their personal venerations.
                                     
                                     
                                    In Christ,
                                     
                                    Vladimir (Vova) Hindrichs, Washington DC
                                     
                                    In a message dated 1/17/2011 12:25:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, woolfolk3@... writes:
                                    Now I'm curious to know where the GOA video was shot that shows the waters flowing backwards.
                                     
                                    In Christ,
                                    Meg Lark


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