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Augustine of Hippo {was: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Miraculous Icon ...]

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  • ikonsareholy
    ... *Xenos* I am the poster on mentioning Blessed Augustine. In the Orthodox Faith you say we weasel out of something? No thats not true in case your aware
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 16, 2009
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      --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Paul Bartlett <bartlett@...> wrote:
      >
      > The message to which I am technically responding (the poster's name is
      > not important) refers to "Blessed Augustine." I presume he refers to
      > Aurelius Augustinus, Bishop of Hippo Regius. Of course, in the west he
      > is known as Saint Augustine. It has never been clear to me, especially
      > with respect to the Russian tradition, whether Orthodox Christians
      > consider Augustine of Hippo a saint or not. They seem to weasel around
      > the issue by referring to him as "Blessed" Augustine.
      *Xenos* I am the poster on mentioning Blessed Augustine. In the Orthodox Faith you say we "weasel" out of something? No thats not true in case your aware of in the Roman church they too have differing levels of Saints. My own Patron Saint Xenia was at the Blessed stage for a while until so many miracles came around.
      Quite honestly your wording of this is more of a attack I hear from Roman Catholics who have a more awed view of Blessed Augustine as a major Father in the Latin church. We have never offically deranked any Saints as the Roman church has done (case in point St.Christopher the Traveler's Saint) or rearranged the Calender losing 12 major feast days but still retaining the Saints, losing sight of the original Christmas date of Jan 7th versus covering up or at least a lousy attempt to cover up the pagan solistice w/the new Gregorian Calender. To be blunt & yet decent you should be more aware of Roman tactics before you slam Holy Orthodoxy.


      Is he a saint or
      > not?
      *Xenos* Again he is at the Blessed stage in the Orthodox Church. Again this level or ranking of Saints is used in the Roman church as well.

      If so, why not refer to him as Saint Augustine? Please read sometime Bishop Kallisros Ware book "The Orthodox Church" as this is helpful in comphrending the Orthodox Church.
      If not, why call
      > him "Blessed" Augustine at all?
      *Xenos* Because of his entrance into several issues. St.John Chrystodom is much more of a revered theologian in the aspect of a major Church Father.
      In Christ
      Xenos Mann
    • David
      Dear Fr. James, St. John commissioned a number of services for Western saints during his time as archbishop of Brussels & Western Europe, as is well known. You
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 17, 2009
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        Dear Fr. James,

        St. John commissioned a number of services for Western saints during his time as archbishop of Brussels & Western Europe, as is well known. You are correct that the service for Blessed Augustine was particularly blessed "for liturgical use in Tunis," because there was, at that time, a Russian Orthodox community in Tunis, "the ancient Carthage, where the Blessed Augustine struggled and where his memory is honored..." Therefore, Tunis would be a place where it would be especially appropriate for a service to St. Augustine to be served instead of (or combined with) the usual service for the Prophet Amos. But the chancery documents give no impression that there was synodal intent to restrict the use of this service only to the Tunis parish, as you imply. St. John's attention to this matter is eloquent testimony to the veneration which he, at least, had for the Blessed Augustine. Perhaps he was less discerning than our latter-day zealots of Orthodoxy. Here is a transcription of the documents to which you refer:

        12 March 1955
        St. Gregory the Dialogist,
        Bishop of Rome

        To His Eminence,
        the Most Reverend
        Metropolitan Anastasius

        Your Eminence,
        Merciful Archpastor & Father

        I herewith submit to the Synod of Bishops a service to the Blessed Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, composed by Hiermonk Ambrose (Pogodin).

        The Blessed Augustine reposed on 28 August 430, but in our official menology July 15 is designated for his commemoration. However, his name does not appear in any ecclesio-liturgical menology.

        The composition of this service is irreproachable with regard to exposition and correct language, and is quite elevated in the spiritual sense.

        The service has been written at an opportune time, in view of the development of spiritual and ecclesiastical life in Tunis, the ancient Carthage, where the Blessed Augustine struggled and where his memory is honored. There is a need there for corresponding prayers to glorify him.

        In submitting this composition, I request that a special blessing be invoked upon its author, Hieromonk Ambrose, for his labor.

        Your Eminence's humble servant,
        +Archbishop John (Maximovitch).

        ====

        DECREE OF THE SYNOD OF BISHOPS OF THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA

        To His Grace, John,
        Archbishop of Brussels & Western Europe

        On 15/28 April 1955, the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia heard:

        the service to Blessed Augustine, composed by Hieromonk Ambrose (Pogodin), which Your Eminence has submitted for approval.

        Resolved:

        To approve the service to the Blessed Augustine for liturgical use in Tunis, as the place where the Blessed Augustine struggled, and to convey to Hieromonk Ambrose our blessing upon his labor.

        [Resolved also] to send a decree to Your Eminence, for the purpose of informing Hieromonk Ambrose [of the Synod's decision], and to inform the rector of the Russian Orthodox community in Tunis.

        11/24 May 1955, New York City

        [signature] Metropolitan Anastasius
        President of the Synod of Bishops

        Archpriest George Grabbe
        Chief Clerk of the Synodal Chancery

        =============

        Perhaps this is also the right opportunity to point out that the consistent veneration of Blessed Augustine in the Russian Church is attested to by the fact that his words in praise of the psalms have appeared in virtually every Russian Orthodox Psalter (both Old and New Rite) ever printed.

        David James


        --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "jsbaglien" <jbgln@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John Whiteford" frjohnwhiteford@ wrote:
        > >
        > > He is a saint.  He has a feast day (June 15th), and a service which was commissioned by St. John of Shanghai.
        >
        >
        > True, but if I remember correctly, this service was blessed by the Synod for use in Tunisia. Fr. Gregory Williams used to cite this fact in his loose-leaf version of Rdr. Isaac's translation of the service, but has since dropped mention of this limitation -- he was ever an ardent apologist for St. Augustine.
        >
        > To Paul's original question, yes, our bishops (at that time) treated him as a saint, but with evident ambivalence about his indisputably mixed legacy. Among various writers, one will find an extraordinary range of opinions concerning this figure -- from "St. Augustine the Great" (some Greeks) to "The Father of All Western Heresies" (other Greeks).
        >
        > (Thank goodness for Russian moderation!)
        >
        >
        > Priest James Baglien
        >
      • Paul Bartlett
        ... 1) I am not Roman Catholic. 2) Two priests have courteously replied to my query, and I am content with their responses. Thank you. -- Regards, Paul
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 17, 2009
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          On Fri, 16 Oct 2009, ikonsareholy wrote:

          > --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, Paul Bartlett <bartlett@...> wrote:
          >>
          >> The message to which I am technically responding (the poster's name is
          >> not important) refers to "Blessed Augustine." I presume he refers to
          >> Aurelius Augustinus, Bishop of Hippo Regius. [trim]

          > *Xenos* I am the poster on mentioning Blessed Augustine. In the
          > Orthodox Faith you say we "weasel" out of something? No thats not
          > true in case your aware of in the Roman church they too have
          > differing levels of Saints. My own Patron Saint Xenia was at the
          > Blessed stage for a while until so many miracles came around. Quite
          > honestly your wording of this is more of a attack I hear from Roman
          > Catholics who have a more awed view of Blessed Augustine as a major
          > Father in the Latin church. [trim]

          1) I am not Roman Catholic.
          2) Two priests have courteously replied to my query, and I am content
          with their responses.
          Thank you.

          --
          Regards,
          Paul Bartlett
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