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Re: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: Jesuits???

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  • Margaret Lark
    ... From: fr.alexander.borodin@rocor.org.au Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 17:40:04 +1100 ... My thanks to all who have responded to my question, and of course, I hope
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 17, 2002
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      ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
      From: fr.alexander.borodin@...
      Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 17:40:04 +1100

      You wrote:
      >In what year did the Jesuits themselves begin to use harmonic singing? ...
      >
      >Was not harmony already the form of singing that was common in Russian folk
      >singing, and by the early 1500's, weren't the strochki (line) harmonies of Russian
      >singing already well in place in the Russian versions of the Byzantine Chants? If
      >so, then then harmony existed in the Russian Church prior to the possible
      >influence of Jesuits.

      My thanks to all who have responded to my question, and of course, I hope to obtain more points of view - they've all been helpful. I chose to respond to this particular post because it reflects what I had always been taught about the use of harmony in Russian Church music.

      I have e-mailed this and other responses to my priest, and hope he doesn't get *too* exasperated with me - I did tell him that I needed input from the Russian side of the matter! It's simply inconceivable to me that the Jesuits could have exerted *that* much influence in Russia, without converting the entire nation to Rome. And of course, as a Russian-American - my maiden name was Pottroff - I can't help feeling a little offended at the implication that the Greeks are the only "orthodox Orthodox."

      Thanks again.

      --
      In Christ,
      Margaret the sinner

      Glory to God in all things!
      --
    • Fr. John R. Shaw
      ... First of all, the influence of Western music on the Russian Orthodox chorale was mostly that of the Italian opera and of 18th century German harmony, not
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 18, 2002
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        On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Margaret Lark wrote:

        > Does anyone know anything about "Jesuit influence on the Russian Orthodox Church"??
        >
        > The new priest of our (Greek) parish has mentioned this several times in the four or so months he's been among us, in terms of why Russian choral music is harmonized. He says that Jesuits influenced the direction taken by the Russian Orthodox Church, the implication being that only Greek Orthodoxy is "pure" Orthodoxy. The only thing I know about Jesuits in Russia is that Stalin was educated by them.
        >
        First of all, the influence of Western music on the Russian
        Orthodox chorale was mostly that of the Italian opera and of 18th century
        German harmony, not of the "Jesuits".

        However, the performance of Byzantine chant in modern Greek
        practice unfortunately owes much to *Turkish Moslem* influence.

        And besides part-harmony, there is also the Znamenny and other
        forms of Russian chant. These can be sung in unison, and there is no
        Western influence in that case. INdeed, the argument can even be made that
        Russian "plainchant" is closer to pure Byzantine music than is modern
        Greek chanting.

        But then, there can be services with no singing at all--and they
        are still Orthodox!

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw
      • Fr. John R. Shaw
        ... At an early point the Jesuits made a decision not to have any liturgical rite or tradition of their own. However, one can well picture a discussion between
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 18, 2002
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          On Thu, 17 Jan 2002 fr.alexander.borodin@... wrote:

          > In what year did the Jesuits themselves begin to use harmonic singing? Was it

          At an early point the Jesuits made a decision not to have any
          liturgical rite or tradition of their own.

          However, one can well picture a discussion between two people
          inclined to see Jesuit influence everywhere:

          A: That cat running across the street--the Jesuits sent it!

          B: NO! It's a Jesuit in disguise...

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw
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