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Re: [orthodox-readers] another Vespers question on Sunday October 22

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  • Philip Silouan Thompson
    ... If you re on the new calendar, you can use the verses posted on the OCA website - they ll appear a day or two before the Sunday when you need them. Or if
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 18, 2006
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      Timothy Capps wrote:
      > Okay, looking on page 263 of my Rubrics, I see the following cryptic instructions under Great Vespers (All-Night Vigil): "Blessed is the man..." (1st Kathisma). At "Lord, I have called..." Stikhera on 10, Tone 2: Resurrection - 6, St. Abercius - 2 and Youths -2.
      >
      > From this I would think we start out with Blessed is the Man, as usual (or the shortened version we sing) then at Lord I Call Upon Thee we are going to use 10 verses, and have ten little hymnlets or stikhera, all in Tone 2. The first 6 are going to be about the Resurrection, there will be 2 about St. Abercius and 2 about the Youths.
      >
      > If so where do you get the stikhera for that service? They may become available on the OCA website, but they are not there now. Aside from the website, what book are they available in?

      If you're on the new calendar, you can use the verses posted on the OCA
      website - they'll appear a day or two before the Sunday when you need them.

      Or if you're stuck and can't find the verses for the saint of the day
      anywhere, you can sing the appropriate verses from the General Menaion.
      This is the collection of services to different kinds of saints:
      martyrs, hierarchs, priests, virgins, etc. (If you ever wonder why all
      services to virgin-martyrs sound kind of alike, it's because they're all
      based on the General Menaion service to a virgin-martyr. Any verses not
      present in the special service to the saint of the day are supplied from
      the General Menaion service. You'll find the General Menaion online at
      http://www.anastasis.org.uk/general.htm and a more complete version at
      http://www.st-sergius.org/services.html (Archimandrite Ephrem's
      originals at Anastasis may be too informal for some; the versions at St
      Sergius use old-style English. Look at them both and you'll see what
      best matches your parish's current style.

      As budget permits, your parish will eventually want to pick up all
      twelve monthly volumes of the daily Menaion - the book of hymns for the
      saint of the day, for every day of the year. (If you look at
      http://sjkp.com and search for "Menaion" you'll find them.) These aren't
      cheap, so it might make sense to buy one volume per month.

      Also - regarding this coming Sunday, the stichera for the Resurrection
      will be in the tone of the week. But the stichera for the saint(s) of
      the day will be in their own tones (there's no telling what tones those
      will be until you have the texts).


      In Christ,

      Reader Silouan
      St Silouan Orthodox Church
      http://saintsilouan.org
    • Timothy Capps
      Dear Tatiana and Reader Silouan, Thank you very much for your excellent and comprehensive answers and advice! In Christ, Timothy
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 18, 2006
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        Dear Tatiana and Reader Silouan,

        Thank you very much for your excellent and
        comprehensive answers and advice!

        In Christ,
        Timothy


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      • rami alghawali
        dear all, attached is another version of the general menaion which i downloaded from the etheral christian library. hope it helps pray for me please a sinner
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 18, 2006
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          dear all,
          attached is another version of the general menaion
          which i downloaded from the etheral christian library.
          hope it helps

          pray for me please


          a sinner


          --- Philip Silouan Thompson <himself@...>
          wrote:

          > Timothy Capps wrote:
          > > Okay, looking on page 263 of my Rubrics, I see the
          > following cryptic instructions under Great Vespers
          > (All-Night Vigil): "Blessed is the man..." (1st
          > Kathisma). At "Lord, I have called..." Stikhera on
          > 10, Tone 2: Resurrection - 6, St. Abercius - 2 and
          > Youths -2.
          > >
          > > From this I would think we start out with
          > Blessed is the Man, as usual (or the shortened
          > version we sing) then at Lord I Call Upon Thee we
          > are going to use 10 verses, and have ten little
          > hymnlets or stikhera, all in Tone 2. The first 6
          > are going to be about the Resurrection, there will
          > be 2 about St. Abercius and 2 about the Youths.
          > >
          > > If so where do you get the stikhera for that
          > service? They may become available on the OCA
          > website, but they are not there now. Aside from
          > the website, what book are they available in?
          >
          > If you're on the new calendar, you can use the
          > verses posted on the OCA
          > website - they'll appear a day or two before the
          > Sunday when you need them.
          >
          > Or if you're stuck and can't find the verses for the
          > saint of the day
          > anywhere, you can sing the appropriate verses from
          > the General Menaion.
          > This is the collection of services to different
          > kinds of saints:
          > martyrs, hierarchs, priests, virgins, etc. (If you
          > ever wonder why all
          > services to virgin-martyrs sound kind of alike, it's
          > because they're all
          > based on the General Menaion service to a
          > virgin-martyr. Any verses not
          > present in the special service to the saint of the
          > day are supplied from
          > the General Menaion service. You'll find the General
          > Menaion online at
          > http://www.anastasis.org.uk/general.htm and a more
          > complete version at
          > http://www.st-sergius.org/services.html
          > (Archimandrite Ephrem's
          > originals at Anastasis may be too informal for some;
          > the versions at St
          > Sergius use old-style English. Look at them both and
          > you'll see what
          > best matches your parish's current style.
          >
          > As budget permits, your parish will eventually want
          > to pick up all
          > twelve monthly volumes of the daily Menaion - the
          > book of hymns for the
          > saint of the day, for every day of the year. (If you
          > look at
          > http://sjkp.com and search for "Menaion" you'll find
          > them.) These aren't
          > cheap, so it might make sense to buy one volume per
          > month.
          >
          > Also - regarding this coming Sunday, the stichera
          > for the Resurrection
          > will be in the tone of the week. But the stichera
          > for the saint(s) of
          > the day will be in their own tones (there's no
          > telling what tones those
          > will be until you have the texts).
          >
          >
          > In Christ,
          >
          > Reader Silouan
          > St Silouan Orthodox Church
          > http://saintsilouan.org
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


          __________________________________________________
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Stephen Parsons
          ... Well, the rubrics will tell you what the variable parts are. So the service doesn t actually start with the 1st kathisma (Blessed is the man...), but
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 18, 2006
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            --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, Timothy Capps
            <lead_and_brush@...> wrote:
            >
            > Okay, looking on page 263 of my Rubrics, I see the following
            > cryptic instructions under Great Vespers (All-Night Vigil):
            > "Blessed is the man..." (1st Kathisma). At "Lord, I have
            > called..." Stikhera on 10, Tone 2: Resurrection - 6,
            > St. Abercius - 2 and Youths -2.
            >
            > From this I would think we start out with Blessed is the Man,
            > as usual (or the shortened version we sing)

            Well, the rubrics will tell you what the variable parts are. So the
            service doesn't actually start with the 1st kathisma (Blessed is the
            man...), but rather that's the first part that might be different on a
            given day. The service actually starts with "Blessed is our God...",
            "O come let us worship...", Ps.103(104)(*), GNE, "Alleluia...", and
            the great litany--and *then* comes "Blessed is the man...".

            As mentioned, "Blessed is the man..." is actually the 1st
            stasis/antiphon of the 1st kathisma. Sometimes the rubrics book will
            say "1st antiphon" rather than "1st kathisma", which means we're to
            sing just "Blessed is the man..." and not the other two
            stases/antiphons of the 1st kathisma. (I.e., just Ps.1-3, and omitting
            Ps.4-6 and 7-8.) This may be typical parish practice anyhow,
            irrespective of what the book appoints. And sometimes the rubrics book
            will say "no kathisma", which means we skip "Blessed is the man..."
            entirely--which I think, iirc, happens on certain days (in the Great
            Fast??) when there's already a lot going on liturgically. But
            whichever way that goes, we still do all the parts before, from
            "Blessed is our God..." through the great litany.

            The questions about the stikhera have already been answered well, so
            I'd just add: be kind to the choir and follow their pitch. When they
            change to a different tone in the midst of their 10 or so stikhera,
            pick -say- the note the bass part ends on (or whichever is most
            comfortable for you) to chant your next verse. One of the tones (4??,
            2??, I forget which one) ends pretty low, so I pitch myself back up to
            where the next line will start instead for that one. That may already
            be common knowledge for you, but I've seen/heard some readers ignore
            the choir and do their own thing, and it's hard on them that way. And
            if you know the tones well enough to anticipate what the choir will do
            when it changes tones, so that you're setting them up with the right
            pitch, that would be ideal, I think. I'm not there yet though. :-)

            (*) I just realized I misspoke yesterday about Ps.103(104). The bit
            about the "first five verses" being typical was actually for
            Ps.102(103) as the 1st antiphon at the Divine Liturgy. What's sung at
            great vespers really is just a tiny snippet of Ps.103(104). I can't
            remember it well enough to sing it to myself right now--I keep mixing
            up what we do in my parish with a recording of a longer version I've
            listened to a lot--but iirc it rearranges part of the first verse and
            jumps way to the end around v.33. So it's really only at daily
            vespers, where it's chanted rather than sung, that we get to hear it
            in a recognizeable form as the whole psalm.
            --
            Stephen in NC (rdr Joseph)
          • James Morgan
            Dear Rami: Hi! I hope all is well with you. Our ladies from Beit Jalla remember your folks well. Yahoo does not allow attachments. Please send the url for
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 18, 2006
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              Dear Rami:

              Hi! I hope all is well with you. Our ladies from Beit Jalla remember your
              folks well.
              Yahoo does not allow attachments. Please send the url for this site.

              Rdr. James
              Olympia, WA
              PS to all. I have zipped files of the Holy Myrrhbearers Menaion. It is not
              as complete as the St. John of Kronstadt, but I can send it to people if
              they need it. It is in a rather 'bald' modern English, however, no vocative
              O and no thee or thou.
              Also, if you don't have the menaion services, it is perfectly permissable to
              sing only the resurrectional stichera on Lord, I call (have cried) and the
              Aposticha. Sort of like substituting things in a recipe. If you don't have
              the 25 yr old balsamic vinegar, you can use 5 year old, but please stick
              with the balsamic or you will ruin the sauce!

              -----Original Message-----
              From: rami alghawali
              Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 9:18 AM
              To: orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [orthodox-readers] another Vespers question on Sunday October
              22

              dear all,
              attached is another version of the general menaion
              which i downloaded from the etheral christian library.
              hope it helps

              pray for me please
            • Philip Silouan Thompson
              ... When you read the stichos (the single line from the Psalms that goes between verses, e.g. Praise the Lord all nations; praise him all ye peoples ), if you
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 18, 2006
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                Stephen Parsons wrote:
                > The questions about the stikhera have already been answered well, so
                > I'd just add: be kind to the choir and follow their pitch. When they
                > change to a different tone in the midst of their 10 or so stikhera,
                > pick -say- the note the bass part ends on (or whichever is most
                > comfortable for you) to chant your next verse... And
                > if you know the tones well enough to anticipate what the choir will do
                > when it changes tones, so that you're setting them up with the right
                > pitch, that would be ideal, I think.

                When you read the stichos (the single line from the Psalms that goes
                between verses, e.g. "Praise the Lord all nations; praise him all ye
                peoples"), if you sing it *in the tone of the verse that follows it*,
                then the other cantors or choir will know where to come in. They may
                look blank and confused if you just say "This bit's in Tone 4", but if
                you've just sung the stichos to the melody of the last line of Tone 4,
                they'll be ready to start singing in the right melody right away.

                And if you accidentally pitch it too low/high, you can always wait till
                the end of the verse, then quietly do-re-mi yourself up or down to a
                more comfortable place before you sing the next stichos. :-)

                Some music books, along with the melody for each tone, supply a stichos
                melody. If you don't have something like that handy, you might practice
                singing each of the ten stichoi of Vespers as if it were a two-line
                verse for "Lord I have cried". For line one you'd either read monotone
                or sing on an appropriate note (usually I use the fifth [do,mi, SO] of
                the key we're singing in). Then line 2 uses the last line of your melody
                for the tone you're about to sing.

                That means, while you're singing, you're always keeping an eye on the
                next thing you're going to sing. (We change to Tone One after this verse...)

                If you practice singing the stichoi in the upcoming tone, then your
                cantors or choir members will be able to follow you without your having
                to stop and give everybody his pitch for the next key and melody. Makes
                the service flow more smoothly without bothering the congregation with
                the mechanics of our musical changes.

                In Christ,

                Reader Silouan Thompson
                http://saintsilouan.org
              • rami alghawali
                dear rdr. James and all, here is the url for the mentioned book: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/anonymous/menaion.html you can download it there as a pdf-file. I
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 18, 2006
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                  dear rdr. James and all,
                  here is the url for the mentioned book:
                  http://www.ccel.org/ccel/anonymous/menaion.html


                  you can download it there as a pdf-file.
                  I downloaded all the pages as html-files and zipped
                  them. anyone who is interested can contact me off-list
                  and i will send the file to him with pleasure.

                  in Christ,

                  Rami






                  --- James Morgan <rdrjames@...> wrote:

                  > Dear Rami:
                  >
                  > Hi! I hope all is well with you. Our ladies from
                  > Beit Jalla remember your
                  > folks well.
                  > Yahoo does not allow attachments. Please send the
                  > url for this site.
                  >
                  > Rdr. James
                  > Olympia, WA
                  > PS to all. I have zipped files of the Holy
                  > Myrrhbearers Menaion. It is not
                  > as complete as the St. John of Kronstadt, but I can
                  > send it to people if
                  > they need it. It is in a rather 'bald' modern
                  > English, however, no vocative
                  > O and no thee or thou.
                  > Also, if you don't have the menaion services, it is
                  > perfectly permissable to
                  > sing only the resurrectional stichera on Lord, I
                  > call (have cried) and the
                  > Aposticha. Sort of like substituting things in a
                  > recipe. If you don't have
                  > the 25 yr old balsamic vinegar, you can use 5 year
                  > old, but please stick
                  > with the balsamic or you will ruin the sauce!
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: rami alghawali
                  > Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 9:18 AM
                  > To: orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [orthodox-readers] another Vespers
                  > question on Sunday October
                  > 22
                  >
                  > dear all,
                  > attached is another version of the general menaion
                  > which i downloaded from the etheral christian
                  > library.
                  > hope it helps
                  >
                  > pray for me please
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                • Adam Kemner
                  A word about the Psalter readings at Vespers: the reading is omitted on all Mondays (Sunday evenings) except when a feast of our Lord or the Theotokos falls
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 19, 2006
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                    A word about the Psalter readings at Vespers: the reading is omitted on all Mondays (Sunday evenings) except when a feast of our Lord or the Theotokos falls on the Monday. The reading is also omitted Great and Holy Thursday through Bright Saturday inclusive (the reading of the psalter is suspended at this time). The daily Kathisma readings vary according to season.

                    One more thing, i do not think that stichera rubrics are correct-the 22nd is a day with two ordinary saints-so the order should be 4 of the Resurrection, three of the first saint and three of the second.. If there are only two stichera provided, then repeat the first to make up the number. So you may want to check that rubric again.

                    In Christ,
                    Adam

                    Stephen Parsons <arimath1@...> wrote:
                    --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, Timothy Capps
                    <lead_and_brush@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Okay, looking on page 263 of my Rubrics, I see the following
                    > cryptic instructions under Great Vespers (All-Night Vigil):
                    > "Blessed is the man..." (1st Kathisma). At "Lord, I have
                    > called..." Stikhera on 10, Tone 2: Resurrection - 6,
                    > St. Abercius - 2 and Youths -2.
                    >
                    > From this I would think we start out with Blessed is the Man,
                    > as usual (or the shortened version we sing)

                    Well, the rubrics will tell you what the variable parts are. So the
                    service doesn't actually start with the 1st kathisma (Blessed is the
                    man...), but rather that's the first part that might be different on a
                    given day. The service actually starts with "Blessed is our God...",
                    "O come let us worship...", Ps.103(104)(*), GNE, "Alleluia...", and
                    the great litany--and *then* comes "Blessed is the man...".

                    As mentioned, "Blessed is the man..." is actually the 1st
                    stasis/antiphon of the 1st kathisma. Sometimes the rubrics book will
                    say "1st antiphon" rather than "1st kathisma", which means we're to
                    sing just "Blessed is the man..." and not the other two
                    stases/antiphons of the 1st kathisma. (I.e., just Ps.1-3, and omitting
                    Ps.4-6 and 7-8.) This may be typical parish practice anyhow,
                    irrespective of what the book appoints. And sometimes the rubrics book
                    will say "no kathisma", which means we skip "Blessed is the man..."
                    entirely--which I think, iirc, happens on certain days (in the Great
                    Fast??) when there's already a lot going on liturgically. But
                    whichever way that goes, we still do all the parts before, from
                    "Blessed is our God..." through the great litany.

                    The questions about the stikhera have already been answered well, so
                    I'd just add: be kind to the choir and follow their pitch. When they
                    change to a different tone in the midst of their 10 or so stikhera,
                    pick -say- the note the bass part ends on (or whichever is most
                    comfortable for you) to chant your next verse. One of the tones (4??,
                    2??, I forget which one) ends pretty low, so I pitch myself back up to
                    where the next line will start instead for that one. That may already
                    be common knowledge for you, but I've seen/heard some readers ignore
                    the choir and do their own thing, and it's hard on them that way. And
                    if you know the tones well enough to anticipate what the choir will do
                    when it changes tones, so that you're setting them up with the right
                    pitch, that would be ideal, I think. I'm not there yet though. :-)

                    (*) I just realized I misspoke yesterday about Ps.103(104). The bit
                    about the "first five verses" being typical was actually for
                    Ps.102(103) as the 1st antiphon at the Divine Liturgy. What's sung at
                    great vespers really is just a tiny snippet of Ps.103(104). I can't
                    remember it well enough to sing it to myself right now--I keep mixing
                    up what we do in my parish with a recording of a longer version I've
                    listened to a lot--but iirc it rearranges part of the first verse and
                    jumps way to the end around v.33. So it's really only at daily
                    vespers, where it's chanted rather than sung, that we get to hear it
                    in a recognizeable form as the whole psalm.
                    --
                    Stephen in NC (rdr Joseph)






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