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A Guide to Obscure Words in the KJV

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  • Fr. John Whiteford
    This booklet is published by Jack Chick... who is no friend of Orthodoxy, and a wee bit of a kook, however, it is cheap (.49 cents each), and very handy if you
    Message 1 of 4 , Aug 9, 2006
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      This booklet is published by Jack Chick... who is no friend of Orthodoxy, and a wee bit of a kook, however, it is cheap (.49 cents each), and very handy if you want a quick reference to some of the more obscure words in the King James version.

      You can read the content online here:

      http://www.chick.com/catalog/books/1007.asp#read

      It is interesteding that among the obscure words that a typical Protestant would need help with from the King James is the word "Fast"

      "Fast Abstaining from food"


      Fr. John Whiteford
      St. Jonah Orthodox Church
      Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
      ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
      Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
      Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • christopher3rd
      ... Orthodoxy, and a wee bit of a kook, however, it is cheap (.49 cents each), and very handy if you want a quick reference to some of the more obscure words
      Message 2 of 4 , Aug 10, 2006
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        --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John Whiteford"
        <frjohnwhiteford@...> wrote:
        >
        > This booklet is published by Jack Chick... who is no friend of
        Orthodoxy, and a wee bit of a kook, however, it is cheap (.49 cents
        each), and very handy if you want a quick reference to some of the
        more obscure words in the King James version.
        >
        > You can read the content online here:
        >
        > http://www.chick.com/catalog/books/1007.asp#read
        >
        > It is interesteding that among the obscure words that a typical
        Protestant would need help with from the King James is the word "Fast"
        >
        > "Fast Abstaining from food"
        >
        >
        > Fr. John Whiteford




        Pronunciation for the same words would also be rather helpful, too,
        for most. That would go for common Orthodox English words such as
        Theotokos, which should never be pronounced [THAY oh TUCK us]. This
        seems to be a common mispronunciation. It is especially odd since it
        makes that last part of her title sound like a quaint old term for
        one's backside. Not appropriate.

        (Similarly, the translation "Grant it, O Lord" when sung to the
        standard Obikhod melody places the stress on the last consonant of
        "Grant" together with "it" accidentally highlighting a word also
        inappropriate for church. I strongly prefer "Grant this, O Lord" for
        that reason.)

        Christopher

        Christopher
      • Theophan
        Christopher wrote, in part, ... Theotokos, which should never be pronounced [THAY oh TUCK us I m no Greek scholar, but I _think_ those last two o s are
        Message 3 of 4 , Aug 10, 2006
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          Christopher wrote, in part,

          ... Theotokos, which should never be pronounced
          [THAY oh TUCK us

          I'm no Greek scholar, but I _think_ those last two "o"s are omicrons, and
          even though I think omicrons and omegas both are pronounced like our long
          "O"s, I've been told that in the times of the Ecumenical Councils where that
          term was first established as doctrinal for the Church, only omega would
          have been pronounced that way, whereas omicron would have been pronounced
          more like "aw" or even "ah." So I think some would suggest that a correct
          pronunciation might be something like "thay-oh-TAW-kaws" or
          "thay-oh-TAH-kahs." I think there's a lot of disagreement about this, with
          some people now arguing that what's almost universally taught about
          pronunciation of koiné Greek in this country may be wrong, and again, I’m no
          Greek scholar, anyway.

          It's difficult because this isn't a "common" word that has been "borrowed"
          from Greek but has become a normal English word, nor is it a "normal" Greek
          word where it's clear to all that the _modern_ Greek Pronunciation should be
          normative. So do we pronounce it as if it were an "American" word, or as if
          it's a modern Greek Word, or a koiné Greek word (and if so which
          pronunciation)?

          All I'm really trying to get at is that I've been taught that a pretty
          common pronunciation of Thie-Oh-TOH-kohs, where all of those "oh"s sound
          like "row your boat," is actually just plain wrong, whereas a more accurate
          pronunciation might be at least a little bit like what you're saying "never"
          should be said.

          Even worse, I've seen the Oxford English Dictionary's pronunciation quoted,
          and it was laughable (I forget how it went, but everyone on the list was
          laughing about it, and NO Orthodox Christian on the planet has ever, or
          would ever pronounce it that way), despite that being what very many people
          suppose is the most authoritative English dictionary in the world.

          Do you, or others on this list, have some authoritative information about
          this issue?

          Theophan Dort
        • christopher3rd
          ... omicrons, and ... long ... where that ... pronounced ... correct ... this, with ... again, I m no ... As in Orthodox Tradition so in the pronunciation of
          Message 4 of 4 , Aug 10, 2006
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            --- In orthodox-readers@yahoogroups.com, "Theophan" <theophan@...> wrote:
            >
            > Christopher wrote, in part,
            >
            > ... Theotokos, which should never be pronounced
            > [THAY oh TUCK us
            >
            > I'm no Greek scholar, but I _think_ those last two "o"s are
            omicrons, and
            > even though I think omicrons and omegas both are pronounced like our
            long
            > "O"s, I've been told that in the times of the Ecumenical Councils
            where that
            > term was first established as doctrinal for the Church, only omega would
            > have been pronounced that way, whereas omicron would have been
            pronounced
            > more like "aw" or even "ah." So I think some would suggest that a
            correct
            > pronunciation might be something like "thay-oh-TAW-kaws" or
            > "thay-oh-TAH-kahs." I think there's a lot of disagreement about
            this, with
            > some people now arguing that what's almost universally taught about
            > pronunciation of koiné Greek in this country may be wrong, and
            again, I'm no
            > Greek scholar, anyway.


            As in Orthodox Tradition so in the pronunciation of ancient/koine
            Greek: we follow the modern tradition passed on to us.

            So, while there are reconstructions about what ancient or koine Greek
            might "really" have been pronounced like, the practice has been to
            pronounce ancient Greek as the modern Greeks pronounce modern Greek.
            Plus, the 'grecophone-ophile' Greeks I know tell me that these
            differences in pronunciation had already stablilized prior to Christ.



            > Even worse, I've seen the Oxford English Dictionary's pronunciation
            quoted,
            > and it was laughable (I forget how it went, but everyone on the list was
            > laughing about it, and NO Orthodox Christian on the planet has ever, or
            > would ever pronounce it that way), despite that being what very many
            people
            > suppose is the most authoritative English dictionary in the world.
            >
            > Do you, or others on this list, have some authoritative information
            about
            > this issue?
            >
            > Theophan Dort
            >


            My issue isn't so much with how the term was "oroginally" pronounced,
            or how it "should" be pronounced, as much as it is that we are
            creating double entendres and word play, where there should be none.
            I also wish there were a substitute for the word "nous" since its
            pronunciation simply brings to mind a hangman's noose.

            The solution may very well be to do as the anglophone Orthodox do in
            the UK and simply use 'Mother of God' for Theotokos and Mater Theou.
            We could also simply pronounce the word in such a way as to mark it as
            a "foreign" word with a foreign, non-English style pronunciation.
            There were probably a good number of "foreign" words that the
            non-Jewish converts of the early Church had to absorb along with the
            non-Greco-Roman, Jewish religion they had accepted. The same can be
            said of the Slavic, Bulgarian, and Romanian peoples as they accepted
            foreign, non-native words along with the non-native religion of
            Christianity.

            That all being said, I generally prefer a natural but slightly
            elevated pronunciation of any word in Church, according to the region.
            For instance, an Orthodox priest in the South should not pronounce
            the Liturgy and prayers in a NY accent because that's where he
            attended seminary and learned to serve "correctly". It would also do
            no good for a Midwesterner like me to try and ape a NY accent because
            I'm in a NY church. In either case, the local pronunciation should be
            that used in polite company or in official situations, and not that of
            the street or a party.

            Christopher
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